An Independent Scotland?

lol @ £250M. They couldn't even construct one building for that thanks to their super egos. We've still got our own GCHQ, MI5 and MI6 to build just for starters, unless you think that the insane fanatical terror groups out there won't care about a country from the West not to mention cyber terrorists and cyber criminals?

YesScotland have also said that Scotland will have an Army, Air Force and Navy. Well just one off-shore patrol vessel costs about £90M. So we'll have three please and let's just forget about the fast response aircraft lol

If Scotland goes independent, I can guarantee with absolute certainty that a £250M won't even scratch the surface and guess who will have to pay for them going over budget? Muggins as always. As for Salmond, one thing he does want which I agree with is compulsory voting. At least that way we can only blame ourselves for any errors.
 
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Ridiculous comment Andy and it only shows how deluded you have been by Westminsters attempts to make the referendum about A.S and the SNP.

Much to my personal disgust we will be retaining the services of the Queen so her head will still be on our currency even if we end up using a different one.
 
gman said:
lol @ £250M. They couldn't even construct one building for that thanks to their super egos. We've still got our own GCHQ, MI5 and MI6 to build just for starters, unless you think that the insane fanatical terror groups out there won't care about a country from the West not to mention cyber terrorists and cyber criminals?

YesScotland have also said that Scotland will have an Army, Air Force and Navy. Well just one off-shore patrol vessel costs about £90M. So we'll have three please and let's just forget about the fast response aircraft lol

If Scotland goes independent, I can guarantee with absolute certainty that a £250M won't even scratch the surface and guess who will have to pay for them going over budget? Muggins as always. As for Salmond, one thing he does want which I agree with is compulsory voting. At least that way we can only blame ourselves for any errors.
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gman you're missing some very important points. Firstly, Scotland already has most of the government departments it needs up running and paid for, there's no need to build buildings for the new ones, we can rent ;)
Secondly, we already own part of the UK Navy, Army and Air Force, Scottish taxes have paid for quite a bit more of them than we actually need for our own use. So much more that rUK will pay us to let them keep the surplus.
I too am in favour of compulsory voting, not sure how best to implement it though.
 
ST4 said:
we teach a different curriculum up here (bonkers as we are one country).
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STV news tonight, Scotland is the most highly educated country in Europe, the benefits of an independent education system :)
 
Should each council area of Scotland have an "independent education system"? There could be a separate exam system, teacher training, unions, holidays... Think of all the jobs that could create in the public sector.
 
Steep said:
STV news tonight, Scotland is the most highly educated country in Europe, the benefits of an independent education system :)
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I missed that, not being able to watch STV where I live. What does "highly educated" mean?
 
Here's a link to the article Stewart I think you'll need to copy and paste it.
news.stv.tv/scotland/278036-scotland-most-highly-educated-country-in-europe-ons-report-shows/
 
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Steep said:
gman you're missing some very important points. Firstly, Scotland already has most of the government departments it needs up running and paid for, there's no need to build buildings for the new ones, we can rent ;)
Secondly, we already own part of the UK Navy, Army and Air Force, Scottish taxes have paid for quite a bit more of them than we actually need for our own use. So much more that rUK will pay us to let them keep the surplus.
I too am in favour of compulsory voting, not sure how best to implement it though.
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I think, in general, you;re seeing thinks through rose tinted glasses. It may happen that way. You hope it will but there is no promise thats what would happen. And no real evidence to support it.

I've said before I think Scotland will be more then capable of standing on its own. I also think both it, and the remainder of the UK will be weaker for it. I also think that all citizens of the UK should get a vote as to what happens to it
 
No real evidence to support what Hugh? (Great name btw :) )
 
Steep said:
No real evidence to support what Hugh? (Great name btw :) )
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Thank you ;) - I was just thinking about the example of what will happen with the armed forces. Theres no evidence that supports them being split in the way you describe. You hope they would be, but it doesn't mean they will be.
 
Steep said:
gman you're missing some very important points. Firstly, Scotland already has most of the government departments it needs up running and paid for, there's no need to build buildings for the new ones, we can rent ;)
Secondly, we already own part of the UK Navy, Army and Air Force, Scottish taxes have paid for quite a bit more of them than we actually need for our own use. So much more that rUK will pay us to let them keep the surplus.
I too am in favour of compulsory voting, not sure how best to implement it though.
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I've not missed any points, GCHQ, MI5 and MI6 are all based in England. They may have small sub-stations based here but we will still require our own HQ for each of these. Being a new foreign country England will not leave their sensitive technology and data up here but that's not saying they won't share but that's a different thing.

They will not be obligated to give us any military hardware which belongs to the UK and also bear in mind much of the technology will be classified so being an independent country they may not wish to give us such secrets (i.e. Chobham armour, new stealth technology). There's also nothing stopping them from giving us the out-of-date equipment instead.

You can't guarantee anything so once again I'll say what seems to escape the grasp of so many: YOU HAVE TO PLAN FOR THE WORST.

£250M is laughable.
 
Steep said:
Here's a link to the article Stewart I think you'll need to copy and paste it.
news.stv.tv/scotland/278036-scotland-most-highly-educated-country-in-europe-ons-report-shows/
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We do have an excellent education system here but how many are Scottish and not foreign students? How many will stay in Scotland and work? I also noticed it say that Scotland is lower down in the charts when it comes to unqualified workforce. Could this be the well known job snobbery problem we have up here? Or is it an indication that we don't have such jobs available in the first instance - such as production line jobs, manufacturing etc. The very things a country needs to be strong economically?

Not rhetoric questions, I genuinely don't know the answers and don't have hours to spend researching it! lol
 
Steep said:
Utter tosh, you're doing a Westminster on us and counting those who didn't vote as no votes! In 2011 the SNP won over 45% of the votes cast.
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They didn't do so well in the 2010 Westminster elections though winning less than half of the labour vote.
 
Hugh, I don't think it would be problematic getting 4 ships out of the rUK, I believe the current fleet size is about 79 vessels of all types, 19 of them frigates. I'm not sure if all of them are 'active' all the time and I'm not convinced we need 4 frigates so another class of vessel might be acceptable. I think a coastguard would be a better option than a navy anyway, it would better serve our immediate interests. If we really did need them and rUK would not part with theirs we could always buy some elsewhere, I believe our mate Vladimir has a few warships going cheap still. (j/k)

Graham, why would we need a Scottish GCHQ? or an MI6? you seem to think Scotland independent would carry on as if it was still an empire having to spy on other nations. An MI5 or Special Branch type home security equivalent I can see being needed but it doesn't have to be huge to cover a nation of 5 million most of whom live within two hours of each other.
Out of date equipment? fine if needs be but don't forget that the Scots have paid their share of the cost of these things and the supposition that it would be an acrimonious negotiation is unfounded. Remember that rUK would want things from us as well, if we go the 10% route, we don't need anything like 10% of the infrastructure that we've helped pay for so there's a lot of room for maneuver.

I don't see Scots soldiers doing anything abroad but UN peacekeeping duties, the small navy we'd have would look after the fisheries and oil fields (which is why I do think a coastguard is a better idea) and the air force? chase a Russian bear once a month or so. None of the above would be required instantly, a few small cutters would serve to begin with and we already have army barracks and airfields. I also don't think we 'need' Typhoons, other countries get on just fine with less expensive aircraft.
 
jakeblu said:
They didn't do so well in the 2010 Westminster elections though winning less than half of the labour vote.
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Which just goes to show the inequities of the first past the post electoral system. Both Labour and the SNP increased their vote in that election and the SNP got 20% of the vote, under PR that would have meant 12 seats not 6. This despite the fact that we had our own parliament and Westminster was seen as far away and remote and not really of interest to a Scottish specific party.

If it's of interest if PR had been used, then the Labour Party (41) would have 25 seats, the SNP (6) would have 12, the Liberal Democrats (11) would have 11 and the Conservatives (1) would have 10.
 
Steep said:
Which just goes to show the inequities of the first past the post electoral system. Both Labour and the SNP increased their vote in that election and the SNP got 20% of the vote, under PR that would have meant 12 seats not 6. This despite the fact that we had our own parliament and Westminster was seen as far away and remote and not really of interest to a Scottish specific party.

If it's of interest if PR had been used, then the Labour Party (41) would have 25 seats, the SNP (6) would have 12, the Liberal Democrats (11) would have 11 and the Conservatives (1) would have 10.
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Still doesn't change the fact that SNP got 20% to Labours 42%.

Edit : Also labours vote increased more than the SNP's albeit not by much, but the SNP were hardly the Zeitgeist of electoral Scotland.
 
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I don't follow what point you're trying to make here Steve?
 
Steep said:
Graham, why would we need a Scottish GCHQ? or an MI6? you seem to think Scotland independent would carry on as if it was still an empire having to spy on other nations. An MI5 or Special Branch type home security equivalent I can see being needed but it doesn't have to be huge to cover a nation of 5 million most of whom live within two hours of each other.
Out of date equipment? fine if needs be but don't forget that the Scots have paid their share of the cost of these things and the supposition that it would be an acrimonious negotiation is unfounded. Remember that rUK would want things from us as well, if we go the 10% route, we don't need anything like 10% of the infrastructure that we've helped pay for so there's a lot of room for maneuver.

I don't see Scots soldiers doing anything abroad but UN peacekeeping duties, the small navy we'd have would look after the fisheries and oil fields (which is why I do think a coastguard is a better idea) and the air force? chase a Russian bear once a month or so. None of the above would be required instantly, a few small cutters would serve to begin with and we already have army barracks and airfields. I also don't think we 'need' Typhoons, other countries get on just fine with less expensive aircraft.
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Where do you think MI5 etc get most of their information from? GCHQ. An independent Scotland will still be a country from the West and that coupled with our close ties to England and presumably the USA would make Scotland a very real target for terror groups who hate the West. If we are going to be as prosperous as you claim then we will also face cyber criminals etc. All this needs to be defended against and yes it doesn't need to be as big but it's still necessary and still costly.

I agree that we don't need a large military presence but we have to remember that Scotland will be a backdoor to England, whether or not this is exploited is irrelevant - you need to plan ahead and protect against unknown threats and not adopt this "plan for best and hope the worst doesn't happen" attitude. You never know who your enemy is going to be so it is in the best interests of the Scottish people to ensure they are protected and not hope that it will never happen. We've already seen how quickly things can change such as with Ukraine and how helpless the rest of the world really were - which is something countries such as Russia, China, USA (because you never know) could never do against the UK because at the moment we could completely annihilate their cities if they ever set foot on our soil.

You are also arguing against quick reaction fighters, but YesScotland even outline having a requirement for them among other warplanes. I'm starting to feel that the arguments here are actually more against your own personal opinions than anything else.

As for Norway which Alex Salmond is so in love with, they rank 23rd according to the IMF, UN and World Bank with regard to GDP but the UK rank 6th. Where will Scotland sit because we don't have the big oil reserves that Norway do?
 
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The point I was making (trying to make) is that the SNP does not commend the electoral attention in a way it would need to if it is to win the Independence referendum and despite what you say this is driven by the SNP. I know not everyone who wants independence supports the SNP but I would think those who do want it vote for them regardless of their political affiliation, although I hate to generalise. To further confound that not everyone who votes SNP wants independence. Even if they could pull off their share of the vote from the 2011 elections it still wouldn't be enough and whilst current opinion polls have moved slightly in your favour they are still a long way from securing you victory.
 
Well I'm not YesScotland Graham so of course the arguments are mine, the thing is that YesScotland isn't just the SNP either. I don't argue against quick reaction fighters as you suggest but we don't need Typhoons to fill that role, there are other more cost effective aircraft out there assuming we couldn't manage to persuade rUK to part with them.
 
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Steve, you make a good point that the independence movement is driven by the SNP I would never apologise for that, it's the thing the party was founded to achieve and it's why I've been an SNP voter all my life. They have proven themselves to be a remarkably able governing party too though which is another point in favour of independence.
Opinion polls are like statistics they can be made to prove anything, the only poll that counts is the one in September and it's the only one that can't be manipulated.
 
Graham, re GCHQ, point taken but why not sub contract to them? In matters of border protection it would be in both countries interests.
 
That would be an ideal starting solution but when it comes to matters of National Security we will need our own closed loop at some point, but that's not to say we wouldn't share information with our allies as well of course.
 
Steep said:
Remember that rUK would want things from us as well, if we go the 10% route, we don't need anything like 10% of the infrastructure that we've helped pay for so there's a lot of room for maneuver.
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Such as ? - Given that the rUK have been subsidising scotland for years i don't think theres a good argument that the scots have helped pay for any infrastructure south of the border - and on defence issues lets not forget the ammount that the uk government puts into the scottish economy by having ships built at the clyde shipyards - those jobs will go to portsmouth instead is scotland goes independent

Steep said:
I also don't think we 'need' Typhoons, other countries get on just fine with less expensive aircraft.
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such as ?

Your basic choices are the F class fighters built by Mcdonnel Douglas (which cost more than a typhoon) or Mirages (built in france - and universally thought to be crap )

The only other low cost options are things like the hawk (which isnt really suitable for the role) or Migs and Sukhois which arent available to the western market.

If there was a cheaper realistic ooption the UK would be using it

Also on general defence issues , the G-I-UK line is pretty pivotal to NATO strategy (particularly with Vlad the impaler getting frisky) , so its dreamland stuff to think Scotland can back away from it - a new Scottish government will have as much choice about their territory being used as Iceland had... ie none
 
big soft moose said:
Such as ? - Given that the rUK have been subsidising scotland for years
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That's a myth.



I was actually thinking of something like the Swedish Grypen aircraft, failing that there are still plenty of f16s about and parts for them.
 
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Today the D Day 70th remembrance has been on the news, I hope that whatever camp you are in for the referendum we can all celebrate that the union we call the UK came together from all the nations and fought side by side

I noticed veterans proudly wearing kilts standing side by side with other nationality veterans I so hope that the future continues as a union proud of what our families and families friends achieved for us and the free world
 
Steep said:
Allan nucear weapons won the second world war because nobody else had them, if Hitler had had them we would not be having this conversation.

Scotland standing alone? against whom and against what?

Nuclear is only clean while it's working, then you have hundreds if not thousands of years worth of contaminated material to store very carefully.

Gordon Brown stripped the pension pot, the same man who was a pariah 4 years ago and who is now pushing himself forward as the leading light of the unionist campaign. You'd think the folk in the South would be glad to be rid of us uf it meant him going too.
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I did make the point in my post that it is likely science would find a method of dealing with Nuclear waste, the defence issue I was considering was space debris

With nuclear we have managed not to use them since WW2 it's a deterrent would you feel safe if only the brick countries had nuclear would China perhaps fancy the oil off your coast maybe you would offer it instead of them taking it

I would gladly let Gordon Brown and Tony Blaire have a home in a very deep hole, you won't get an argument off me re Iraq Afghanistan or Libya cost over £20 billion I do think though the Falklands was correct after the invasion.

By the way good luck with a coast guard ship against a navel fleet plus if a fleet was off your coast I think air power would be highly desirable

I know if you had a land invasion you have munros that you could hide in not sure that would be a great help in the longer term, maybe the owners of the munros in some cases foreign owned would evict you.

I fail to understand even if an invasion never happened why you would risk your men and woman standing alone when you have what we have now.
 
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border_all said:
I fail to understand even if an invasion never happened why you would risk your men and woman standing alone when you have what we have now.
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Honestly, I'd expect the "Scots" even if they were independent would expect intervention from rUK...

They'd come out with this guff of "our closest ally" despite actively voting to dismember themselves from this.

Cake and eat it...innit
 
You're both missing out on something, we wouldn't be standing alone, we'd be active members of NATO.

You understand I don't say we won't ever have a navy, just that we are not going to need any sizeable fleet for the forseeable future and if needed (though I can't see what for right now) we can build it up over time.

You keep banging on about invasion fleets and nuclear weapons and I say again, what, where from and who is likely to want to invade us? Europe hasn't gone to war with itself in 70 years not because of nukes but because of trade partnerships like the EU.

As for an airforce, in thirty years no-one will be flying in fighters any more, they'll all be drones controlled from the ground and much cheaper to buy.
 
ST4 said:
Honestly, I'd expect the "Scots" even if they were independent would expect intervention from rUK...

They'd come out with this guff of "our closest ally" despite actively voting to dismember themselves from this.

Cake and eat it...innit
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And that response is exactly the kind of garbage that makes us want independence.
 
NATO membership is open to “any other European state in a position to further the principles of this Treaty and to contribute to the security of the North Atlantic area.”

Thought we agreed at first you would not be in the EU so how would you be in NATO?

I mention the Brick one of them is China who is not happy with Japan they have a dispute that some may think is based on oil who do you know with oil Mmm

Look at history the earth has been struck by space junk before BIG craters what will you do shout really loud go away we mean you no harm

Re EU and war not joined yet but Turkey is not stable and Ukraine is almost in civil war France was in Iraq and I think has nuclear

As someone else mentioned defence is also internet based will you wait for strong net defence as well may need that for your drones no good cheap if they don't communicate

Alex mentioned after President Obama liked strong allies that instead of one friend they would have two. Is that a turn around on the saying the bird in the hand is worth the two in the tree
 
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Steep said:
And that response is exactly the kind of garbage that makes us want independence.
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Why is it garbage, it's exactly what an "independent Scotland" would do if Russian vessels were sniffing around the North sea. A Scottish goverment will p*** millions, billions away on social work, petty policing, average speed cameras etc, but not useful things like a proper military. It's why they, IMHO, I'd never vote yes.
 
Steep said:
Gordon Brown stripped the pension pot, the same man who was a pariah 4 years ago and who is now pushing himself forward as the leading light of the unionist campaign. You'd think the folk in the South would be glad to be rid of us uf it meant him going too.
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Nice try but wrong logic! We pensions losers from the South certainly haven't forgiven you for that particular son of the Manse! Which means that we don't want you to be rewarded by getting whatever it is that you want! :mad:

Actually ignore that! Forget Gordon Brown! Some of us haven't yet forgiven you for The Bay City Rollers!! :bat:
 
border_all said:
NATO membership is open to “any other European state in a position to further the principles of this Treaty and to contribute to the security of the North Atlantic area.”

Thought we agreed at first you would not be in the EU so how would you be in NATO? When did 'we' agree this?

I mention the Brick one of them is China who is not happy with Japan they have a dispute that some may think is based on oil who do you know with oil Mmm China is the other end of the world or are you thinking they'd bypass all the other choice sites and head straight for us?

Look at history the earth has been struck by space junk before BIG craters what will you do shout really loud go away we mean you no harm I don't think Trident is capable of targetting asteroids.

Re EU and war not joined yet but Turkey is not stable and Ukraine is almost in civil war France was in Iraq and I think has nuclear umm ok but no-one is looking much like invading us yet.

As someone else mentioned defence is also internet based will you wait for strong net defence as well may need that for your drones no good cheap if they don't communicate We'll pop down to PCWorld (if they haven't abandoned us like all the other businesses) and buy a couple of PCs.

Alex mentioned after President Obama liked strong allies that instead of one friend they would have two. Is that a turn around on the saying the bird in the hand is worth the two in the tree It was a heartfelt plea to Obama not to invade us.
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Good news steep once you are in NATO you can rent bandwidth on Skynet for defence communication
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-20781625

Wonder did you watch the film Captain Phillips makes me think pirate terrorist activity on your rigs would need protection
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captain_Phillips_(film)

Is that built into the budget just thought maybe 30 years the oil reserve may be reducing

I don't mean sarcasm here but it feels like your proposed defence plan is like leaving your door unlocked and a pile of gold bullion for the taking on the room floor keeping in mind how far apart some of your properties are you will need a very loud alarm.
 
Yves Geza said:
Nice try but wrong logic! We pensions losers from the South certainly haven't forgiven you for that particular son of the Manse! Which means that we don't want you to be rewarded by getting whatever it is that you want! :mad:

Actually ignore that! Forget Gordon Brown! Some of us haven't yet forgiven you for The Bay City Rollers!! :bat:
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I can sing you some if you like? Anyone for Shang-a-lang?

and 1 and 2

We sang shang-a-lang, as we ran with the gang
Doin' doo wop be dooby do ay
We were all in the news
With our blue suede shoes
And our dancin' the night away

All together now!
 
border_all said:
Good news steep once you are in NATO you can rent bandwidth on Skynet for defence communication
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-20781625

Wonder did you watch the film Captain Phillips makes me think pirate terrorist activity on your rigs would need protection
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captain_Phillips_(film)

Is that built into the budget just thought maybe 30 years the oil reserve may be reducing

I don't mean sarcasm here but it feels like your proposed defence plan is like leaving your door unlocked and a pile of gold bullion for the taking on the room floor keeping in mind how far apart some of your properties are you will need a very loud alarm.
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We're too nice for anyone to want to steal from us.
 
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