Another failed film development

Kiwi Paul

Kiwi Paul

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I just developed another roll of HP5+ 400 film and it's come out cloudy again.
I don't know what's going on, this is the second time in a row this has happened, I've developed loads of B&W film with no issues using the same chemicals etc.
I mixed new batches of developer, stop and fixer and made sure they were mixed correctly and at 20 deg.
The time for each in the developing tank was correct.
I checked the developer bottle and it says use by 04/22 so it should be fine.

I've attached a picture of the film, can anyone suggest what is going on?
The film is cloudy and purple.

_DSC1351.JPG
 
Was it fresh film?
Are you certain there are no issues with the camera?
 
I can't see any frame numbers - can you? If so, then the film could well have been fogged. The purple colour could be anti halation dye, but never having used HP5 I wouldn't know what it looked like.
 
Harlequin565 said:
Was it fresh film?
Are you certain there are no issues with the camera?
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Yep the film was only about 6 months old, the camera appears to be fine.

StephenM said:
I can't see any frame numbers - can you? If so, then the film could well have been fogged. The purple colour could be anti halation dye, but never having used HP5 I wouldn't know what it looked like.
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No there are no frame numbers at all, reading the Ilford help page it says if there are no frame numbers etc the film hasn't been developed. I have other developers so I'm going to try one of them for the next film. But I don't know why the developer would have gone off totally, all a bit baffling.
 
Is it possible that you've got your dev and fixer bottles mixed up? Not that I've ever managed to do that myself... :banghead:
 
If it hadn't developed, the film would be clear (assuming the fixer is OK). If you've got a dark film, I can only immediately think of fogging. Chemical fog is possible, but unlikely.
 
Nod said:
Is it possible that you've got your dev and fixer bottles mixed up? Not that I've ever managed to do that myself... :banghead:
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No I made sure I used the correct chemicals after it happening last time.
StephenM said:
If it hadn't developed, the film would be clear (assuming the fixer is OK). If you've got a dark film, I can only immediately think of fogging. Chemical fog is possible, but unlikely.
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What causes fogging then?
 
Camera back opened before film rewound; developer tank lid has imperfect light seal: ditto changing bag or darkroom; exposure to X rays. Basically anything that lets light reach the film before it's developed.

There is a latency of action with development, so if you use an acid stop bath after development and before fixing, if you're fast enough you can take the lid off the tank, pour out developer and pour in the stop. Never tried this, but I have removed the lid to pour out stop and pour in fixer. This is just to indicate what probably isn't the problem.
 
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StephenM said:
Camera back opened before film rewound; developer tank lid has imperfect light seal: ditto changing bag or darkroom; exposure to X rays. Basically anything that lets light reach the film before it's developed.

There is a latency of action with development, so if you use an acid stop bath after development and before fixing, if you're fast enough you can take the lid off the tank, pour out developer and pour in the stop. Never tried this, but I have removed the lid to pour out stop and pour in fixer. This is just to indicate what probably isn't the problem.
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I can't really think of any time the film would have been exposed to light before development, I use the same room as always to put the film onto the spool and it's completely dark and I've not had issues before, same with the development tank. The camera I was using is a Canon A1 so it's getting on but the light seals appear to be fine so I don't think there's a light leak.
 
Nothing as simple as not using the centre column in a Paterson tank and thereby removing the light sealing? Dark film with no frame numbers isn't something I can explain other than by light action before (or during) development.
 
StephenM said:
Nothing as simple as not using the centre column in a Paterson tank and thereby removing the light sealing? Dark film with no frame numbers isn't something I can explain other than by light action before (or during) development.
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Thanks for your suggestions. I think I'll take 6 shots on a new roll of film and open the camera back in the darkroom, cut the film and put the 6 exposed shots onto the spool and develop that with a different developer and see how it goes. I want to get to the bottom of this without wasting too much film.
 
At the risk of wasting more film, I suggest that you take the film straight into the darkroom, cut off a length and develop it; it if comes out clear with frame numbers, you've eliminated film and processing as being the problem. If the next six frames from the camera have the problem, it looks like a camera fault. But it would have to be a very serious light leak. Can you take the lens off the camera and look through the throat to see if there is any leak with a bright light behind the camera?
 
StephenM said:
At the risk of wasting more film, I suggest that you take the film straight into the darkroom, cut off a length and develop it; it if comes out clear with frame numbers, you've eliminated film and processing as being the problem. If the next six frames from the camera have the problem, it looks like a camera fault. But it would have to be a very serious light leak. Can you take the lens off the camera and look through the throat to see if there is any leak with a bright light behind the camera?
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That's a good idea, I'll do that and see what happens, thanks for the suggestion
 
Sorry if I am being dumb, but surely a massive light leak would leave the entire film black? The lack of edge markings seems to confirm that the dev hasn't happened. The cloudiness suggests insufficient fixation.

If I were you, I'd take a bit of unprocessed film trimmed from a new roll and do a clearing test with the fixer. That should leave a little clear patch. Then repeat the same test with another clipped bit bit of unprocessed film but with the dev (you can do it in daylight). That should NOT leave a clear patch.

Finally, for a third test, take a third trimmed bit of film (but do that in the dark, and then load it into the tank). Dev and fix. You should have edge markings, and a clear middle.

It will cost you a bit of film and some chemicals, but you may learn something.

If you are careful you should still have most of a film left you can use (but will need to cut a new leader).

Good luck!
 
I suppose we have to ask - a fresh batch of chemicals were mixed, but what was the developer and was the bottle full/half empty/almost empty? Shelf life and expiry at a guess are for unopened bottles; some developers oxidise very rapidly. A test of a small piece of the film leader in a small quantity of developer should show whether the film darkens at all - especially if it's half in/half out of the developer.
 
Looks to me like either no development through exhausted or incorrectly mixed developer or the film was fixed before development..

What was the developer used ?

Did you forget to add the concentrate and just developed in plain water.

My guess is the fixer and developer were mixed up. Been there done that, read the book, seen the film got the T Shirt
 
Paul-H said:
Looks to me like either no development through exhausted or incorrectly mixed developer or the film was fixed before development..

What was the developer used ?

Did you forget to add the concentrate and just developed in plain water.

My guess is the fixer and developer were mixed up. Been there done that, read the book, seen the film got the T Shirt
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No development would leave the film clear but it looks to be quite dark. Same with fixing before developing. If the film is all dark, including the rebates around the sprocket holes, it indicates either fogging with light or massively inappropriate development.
 
I don't think there is any getting away with it. The film is heavily fogged.
I guess the the real question is, at what point through cartridge loading to development did it get fogged?
I'd be surprised if it was the camera, the back would have to be seriously bent or have not light traps at all.

Just my ten penneth you undrerstand.
 
Kiwi Paul said:
I checked the developer bottle and it says use by 04/22 so it should be fine.
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What developer did you use?

That date is for an unopened bottle Paul. It seems your bottle is partially full and I would suggest that the developer is stale (oxidised) and is no longer working and is chemically fogging the film. You need to use fresh developer.
 
RustySnapper said:
It seems your bottle is partially full and I would suggest that the developer is stale (oxidised) and is no longer working and is chemically fogging the film.
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Stale developer is a pain and there were several ideas for extending the life of developer after breaking the seal. These ranged from spraying an inert gas into the bottle before replacing the stopper and dropping marbles into the bottle to reduce the airspace all the way to storing the developer in "concertina" bottles that you squeezed down until the developer was nearly spilling over the lip.

None of these seemed to work all that well for me. :thinking:
 
If the developer was exhausted or oxidised and then the film was fixed then the film would look almost clear. (I think)
 
Two possibilities.
1) the camera shutter is faulty and not exposing the film. ( but I would expect the film leader to be processed to black).

2) the Developer has been contaminated with fixer, and is not developing the film.

You would expect the film leader to be black if the developer was working at all.

It looks to me like neither the Developer nor the fix is doing a proper job, as the film does not look clear but slightly milky as happens with incomplete fixation.
 
Terrywoodenpic said:
Two possibilities.
1) the camera shutter is faulty and not exposing the film. ( but I would expect the film leader to be processed to black).

2) the Developer has been contaminated with fixer, and is not developing the film.

You would expect the film leader to be black if the developer was working at all.

It looks to me like neither the Developer nor the fix is doing a proper job, as the film does not look clear but slightly milky as happens with incomplete fixation.
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Does fixer go off like developer if left in a sealed but previously opened container with an air gap?
 
Thanks for all the replies folks, I feel like a bit of a numpty, I just checked the fixer by putting a piece of film leader into the fixer at working temp (something I should have done ages ago), the recommended time is 2 mins and that's what I used in the past and the development was fine, the test took over 3 mins for the film to clear and the rule of thumb seems to be to double that and add a minute which means it would take about 7 or 8 mins in the fixer so clearly the fixer is expired. I'll ditch my old stop and fixer and buy new, I already have fresh developer.
 
Update.......

New batch of chemicals and all is well, just developed a roll of HP5+ 400 with Rodinal, Ifostop and Ilford rapid fixer and it looks good.
So, from now on I'll changing my chemicals a bit more often.
Mind you Rodinal is meant to last pretty much indefinitely even after the container is opened but the Stop lasts about a year and Fixer about 6 months according to Ilford.
 
Glad the issue's sorted.
 
I'm a compulsive film leader hoarder. A quick test of a bit of leader in my mixed developer in the light. It should go dark quickly (about 5 times faster than normal development time, which can also be a way of getting a ball park figure for an unknown film/developer combination, this dates back to the Watkins's factorial development principle from the 1890s). Another bit of leader gets used to test the fixer as @Kiwi Paul described earlier.
 
dmb said:
I'm a compulsive film leader hoarder. A quick test of a bit of leader in my mixed developer in the light. It should go dark quickly (about 5 times faster than normal development time, which can also be a way of getting a ball park figure for an unknown film/developer combination, this dates back to the Watkins's factorial development principle from the 1890s). Another bit of leader gets used to test the fixer as @Kiwi Paul described earlier.
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That's good to know about testing developer, I'll certainly give that a try next time I mix my next batch to get a feel for it.
 
Kiwi Paul said:
Does fixer go off like developer if left in a sealed but previously opened container with an air gap?
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Yes, eventually. I had an 18 month hiatus from developing a while back. When I opened my fixer concentrate to make up a new working solution there was a thick crust of elemental sulphur on the top of the fixer concentrate.
 
Kiwi Paul said:
Mind you Rodinal is meant to last pretty much indefinitely even after the container is opened but the Stop lasts about a year and Fixer about 6 months according to Ilford.
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I don't use Rodinal, but I believe the original (Agfa?) version would indeed last indefinitely; I understand modern replacements do have a habit of suddenly going off between one film and the next...
 
That's also my understanding. I'm still using the original Agfa version. I may now find it's gone off....
 
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