Another Medium Format Thread

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Craig
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For about the last year I have seriously fancied getting into some medium format film. I am currently in the position where I may be able to, having sold some bits and pieces and have some spare cash.

However, I think a big part of the satisfaction would come from being able to have control over the whole process, so develop and scan myself. I've never developed any film before but I'm not put off of trying, how hard can it be, there are loads of tutorials kicking round! This would add some extra cost though, I know I wouldn't have to do this from the off necessarily, but it would save money in the long run and add to my enjoyment. I don't like losing control over the scanning phase when I've sent off 35mm rolls in the past.

So with that in mind, I'm trying to establish the cost for all this stuff before I dive in head first as I often do with things, and look for recommendations. Budget could be up to a maximum of £800, but less would be better. Shooting a range of things from Family Portraits to Landscapes and general street bits on days out.

Camera: Fancy at least 6x6 to make it worthwhile for me. Bronica SQ or perhaps an RB/Z67 depending on cost. Not too worried about the weight as I have fuji stuff for lightweight days.
Light Meter: No idea on make/features or budget. Help?
Developing kit: AG Photographic look like they have everything I would need. Could I get set up for this stage for £70 including chemicals, dark bag etc?
Scanner: I've read that an Epson flatbed would be sufficient for medium format scanning, but would it do the format justice in terms of resolution? Any recommendations and what would I look to pay second hand preferably to keep costs down.

I've read a few other similar threads on this, including a very long one from @Sir SR but thought I'd start another as you all seem to love talking about it so much :D and this is a bit different.

Thanks
 
You should be able to get everything sorted for well within your budget :) Developing film yourself is easy once you've done it a few times, and the kit will pay for itself very quickly. If I can do it, anyone can! You haven't said whether you intent to develop just black and white, or C41 colour as well? My recommendation would be to do the B&W yourself, but send C41 off to a lab. It's possible to do C41 yourself, but it's a little bit more involved, not quite as fool proof, and the chemicals don't last long enough to make it worthwhile unless you're shooting a lot.

I've heard very good things about an SQA. I've not used one myself, but I have an ETRS which I love. Have you considered a 6x6 TLR? Such as a Mamiya C220/C330, Yashica Mat 124, Rolleicord Va/Vb etc. All of these are well within your budget and are very good.

Light meter wise, I just use my phone. There's a free (or very cheap) app that's decent and is more than accurate enough for what you want. Plus, it's always with you then!

I bought the AG dev tank and reels, and they are very good. The tank uses a little more chemicals than other ones (590ml for 120 IIRC), but it's easy to use and is what I would recommend. The AG reels have wider tabs for loading film as well, so they're easier to use IMO.

You can pick up a V550 scanner for less than £150, it's very common and seems to be one of the standard ones that gets recommended. I have it and I think it's great for MF (not convinced for 35mm, but it's more than likely user error).
 
Camera: try before you buy. Handing varies enormously from scaled up 35mm cameras (Pentax 67 SLR, Mamiya 6/7 rangefinder), folding cameras, and on to more conventional designs which could be used at waist or eye level. You can get auto exposure if you want (but budget might be a problem). I'm only familar with the Mamiya C330f and RB/RZ67, all of which I can endorse. I didn't get on with the handling of the Hasselblad, which shows how much camera useability can vary from person to person.

Light meter: do you want to measure flash or not?

Scanner: I've just put up one of my 6x7 negatives scanned on an Epson flatbed here if you want to see it full size (and if it works).
 
I would like to do C41 film, part of the appeal of colour film is the tonality of it for me. Is it really that much harder to do, I realise the temperatures need to be controlled more accurately, what happpens if you get it wrong though, unusable or just not optimal exposure?

In terms of metering I don't really know if I need one or not. Won't be using flash and I know there is quite a bit of latitude in film so perhaps I'll be fine with an app on my phone.

I don't mind what camera really, happy with waist level finder and will use a tripod if I'm doing landscape stuff. As long as the body works correctly and I can get good image quality from whatever lens I end up with.
 
I would like to do C41 film, part of the appeal of colour film is the tonality of it for me. Is it really that much harder to do, I realise the temperatures need to be controlled more accurately, what happpens if you get it wrong though, unusable or just not optimal exposure?

In terms of metering I don't really know if I need one or not. Won't be using flash and I know there is quite a bit of latitude in film so perhaps I'll be fine with an app on my phone.

I don't mind what camera really, happy with waist level finder and will use a tripod if I'm doing landscape stuff. As long as the body works correctly and I can get good image quality from whatever lens I end up with.

There are very few poor medium format lenses, these were so expensive that there wasn't a market for cheap crap, most of the mechanical cameras are pretty bomb proof so a little bit of selective purchasing you'll have no problem getting a working one. I've got a 6x6 TLR but its not the same as looking through the enormous vf of the RB everything looks a little special, till you get the film back at least.
 
I would like to do C41 film, part of the appeal of colour film is the tonality of it for me. Is it really that much harder to do, I realise the temperatures need to be controlled more accurately, what happpens if you get it wrong though, unusable or just not optimal exposure?

In terms of metering I don't really know if I need one or not. Won't be using flash and I know there is quite a bit of latitude in film so perhaps I'll be fine with an app on my phone.

I don't mind what camera really, happy with waist level finder and will use a tripod if I'm doing landscape stuff. As long as the body works correctly and I can get good image quality from whatever lens I end up with.

For me, I am happy to develop, scan, and/or darkroom print my black and white, but developing and scanning for colour film is always outsourced to the lab. Colour is really important for me and I'm generally unimpressed by home-based results for C-41. It is doable, but prepare to invest a good chunk of time and money to get really good colour results.

For light meters, Sekonic L308 is a good starter option. For cameras, there are simply too many viable options to list based on the few preferences specified.
 
I would like to do C41 film, part of the appeal of colour film is the tonality of it for me. Is it really that much harder to do, I realise the temperatures need to be controlled more accurately, what happpens if you get it wrong though, unusable or just not optimal exposure?

It's not that much harder really, and if you can do B&W then you can do C41 as well. The simplest way IMO is to fill your sink up with water to the right temperature using the hot/cold taps, then keep a jug of boiling water on the side. If the temperature starts to drop slightly then you just add a splash of water from the jug to bring it back up again. My understanding is that it's the developing stage that's temperature critical and the following stages are more relaxed anyway, so there's not a huge amount of time when the temperature needs to be spot on. I never really noticed too much of a difference from the temperature being off by a degree or two, but other people here should be able to tell you what actually happens and if it matters much.

I stopped developing C41 for two reasons- I suck at scanning colour film and could never get the colours to be quite right, and I didn't shoot enough film to make it worth while before the chemicals expired. Seemed easier to me to just give £5 to film dev and not mess about with it.

Like I said, C41 isn't really that hard, and in some ways it's simpler than B&W as every film is developed the same.

I don't mind what camera really, happy with waist level finder and will use a tripod if I'm doing landscape stuff. As long as the body works correctly and I can get good image quality from whatever lens I end up with.

I honestly think that looking down through a waist level finder is one of the best bits of using a medium format camera like an SQA/RB67 etc. The image on the ground glass just looks spectacular. If only my photos looked that good when they were developed :LOL:
I do agree with @steveo_mcg though, you won't regret an RB67 at all.



edit- can't spell... It always amazes me how many types go unnoticed until I hit post!
 
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To control water temperature developing C41 you could use a Sous Vide wand. Some ALDI stores currently have one for £20. https://www.hotukdeals.com/deals/sous-vide-1999-found-in-aldi-2880917

For a light meter I managed to pick up a Minolta M spot meter off ebay for a reasonable price, and it works well enough. Can just about work out the zone system using the scale on the screen. Find it a bit annoying that you have to set the shutter speed and it tells you the appropriate aperture though. But at least you can adjust the shutter speed after taking a reading.
 
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Ignore all these fools.... RB/RZ 67....pah, you'll just end up with a hernia! Mamiya C330f Sorted. ;):)
 
Are the scanners that they use in the labs that much better then in terms of colour reproduction? I would probably be happy to have somewhere do dev only and I scan myself. I think that is the bit that bothers me slightly is you are giving a lot of latitude to whoever is doing the scanning to decide how the photo should look, losing that control if I'm going to the bother of using MF just doesn't make sense to me. Unless I am misunderstanding how much "processing" is actually done at the scanning stage.

I won't be shooting a lot of it to be honest so if the chemicals will be going off on m maybe it is better that I have someone else do the developing.
 
Bronica SQA, 80mm f2.8 & Waist level finder for starters - Camera
Sekonic 308 - Light Meter
Paterson Starter Kit - devoloping kit for B & W
C41 Easy but you need to control tempreature at 38 deg C accurately - outsource to film dev for developing and scans.
Epson Flatbed Scanner (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Epson-Pe...663652?hash=item4b369ad3e4:g:0H8AAOSw9Z1abxAT) - scanning B & W Negs.

You will absolutely love it so don't hold back!

IMG_20171221_231934 by Fraser White, on Flickr

From here:
http://www.speedgraphic.co.uk/processing_equipment/paterson_film_processing_kit/21889_p.html
 
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Are the scanners that they use in the labs that much better then in terms of colour reproduction?

It's not just the equipment but the operator. Like @skyshark, I use the same lab and have a good relationship with them. They know how I like my scans and are scanning hundreds of frames daily so their workflow is better and more efficient than mine is with my V700. A good relationship with a lab is very important IMO if they are doing the scanning. I still sometimes do a little editing afterwards but this is minimal usually. :)
 
Ignore all these fools.... RB/RZ 67....pah, you'll just end up with a hernia! Mamiya C330f Sorted. ;):)

Hmm, another option it seems. Is that an interchangeable lens TLR? I'm not overly worried about acquiring lots of lenses at this point but one of the things that puts me off TLR's is the fixed lenses. It would be nice to have the option.

Maybe finding a good lab is the key. Not that film dev have let me down yet, I'm slightly unsure about a few rolls of 35 I've had back that look like they may not have scanned correctly but it could also be an error with the camera, but I have another thread about that so let's not go there.
 
The Mamiya C series are interchangeable lens TLRs - the lenses are easily found and go from 55mm to 250mm if I remember correctly. The standard lens for this size format is 80mm, to give you a feel for what these values mean.

Edit to add: if I could only have one camera, I'm not sure if I'd take the C330f (which I have) or the latest RB67 (I have the older model). Though I'd hate to give up on large format...
 
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Does anyone have a list (or has one been posted in the past) of reputable shops/dealers preferably with online shops for film equipment? Checked the stickies but couldn't see anything.
 
Does anyone have a list (or has one been posted in the past) of reputable shops/dealers preferably with online shops for film equipment? Checked the stickies but couldn't see anything.
West Yorkshire Cameras, and Ffordes are both worth checking. The stuff on Ffordes often seems reasonably priced and sells quick, so you have to look on the site regularly for the good stuff.
 
Take a look at this thread.

I'm lucky in having a "local" although they don't sell from their web site. I've had good service from both West Yorkshire Cameras and ffords by post in the past - and WYC in person a couple of weeks ago.
 
SqA or an RF

Both the RB and the c330 are big ole lumps, the TLR less so than the RB but I find all TLR's a bit awkward anyway.
A blad, mamiya6/7 and the like are out of budget really, pentax 67 is a big ole lump too.
RF's have limitations, only you can decide how significant those limitations are, certainly multi lens RF's are probably out of budget so it would be fixed, but there is a choice of wide or standard.
I'd choose an RF, but....I love em, so I would.
If it isn't an RF, I can't see past an SQ, you're stuck with a cubey box but that would be the case to a certain extent whatever you pick..:)
 
Other things you need are negative storage sheets. I buy mine from West End Cameras.
Chemicals I normally buy from AG Photographic.
Fomopan is a cheap and easy B&W film to try.

One thing I found surprising when I started developing was the water temperature of UK cold water. It is normally about 14 or 14.5C, so just adding a splash of hot water is enough to bring it up to 20C.
 
Are the scanners that they use in the labs that much better then in terms of colour reproduction? I would probably be happy to have somewhere do dev only and I scan myself. I think that is the bit that bothers me slightly is you are giving a lot of latitude to whoever is doing the scanning to decide how the photo should look, losing that control if I'm going to the bother of using MF just doesn't make sense to me. Unless I am misunderstanding how much "processing" is actually done at the scanning stage.

Not just the scanners, but the software plus operator skills as mentioned. I've had neg film processed for self scan, and found the results I can get are poor in comparison with the experts. It's compensating for the orange base plus the compression curve that seems to be the problem. Too many film stocks don't seem to have good "presets: in the various standard scan softwares. That said, scanning film as an un-corrected positive TIFF and passing it from PS (or PSE) to ColorPerfect seems to do the job much better. But that's another £50+ and a whole lot more faff in the workflow.
 
Maybe I am over-estimating my skills in the scanning department. It would be simpler to just send it off and with the relatively small amount I'll be shooting it probably makes sense!

It's a shame I'm not more interested in black and white as that appears like it would be more cost effective to do myself.
 
Maybe I am over-estimating my skills in the scanning department. It would be simpler to just send it off and with the relatively small amount I'll be shooting it probably makes sense!

It's a shame I'm not more interested in black and white as that appears like it would be more cost effective to do myself.

Scanning is a skill along side photography and just like shooting in the first place it takes time to learn and more time to do well, especially colour.

My realisation of this was an ASDA scan of all things, it was an oversharpened mess but the colours were fantastic. I tried to rescan it but I couldn't get it looking nearly as good.
 
Scanning is a skill along side photography and just like shooting in the first place it takes time to learn and more time to do well, especially colour.

My realisation of this was an ASDA scan of all things, it was an oversharpened mess but the colours were fantastic. I tried to rescan it but I couldn't get it looking nearly as good.

Well I agree..and why wouldn't a competent operator at Tesco or Asda doing low scans equal the cheaper low scan labs mentioned here esp using the same m\cs. Even If you have a top skilled scanning operator at say filmdev he can only spend a limited time on each film frame to keep prices down...proof of a quick scan was my night shots that were posted when my home scan corrected all the ghastly faults done by the lab.
 
Ghastly faults from Film Dev? What was the issue?

Remember me posting this, other shots away from the church had this effect, but some were ok
MnNYqFe.jpg


and my scan..
LvLjvvk.jpg
 
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Ghastly faults from Film Dev? What was the issue?

Remember me posting this, some other shots had this effect but some didn't.
MnNYqFe.jpg


and another one
TZImjPk.jpg


When I did a home scan they were OK
 
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Remember me posting this, some other shots had this effect but some didn't.
MnNYqFe.jpg


and another one
TZImjPk.jpg


When I did a home scan they were OK

Well, from what I am seeing, the primary issue appears to stem from problems at the time of exposure (i.e., severe underexposure) rather than at the scanning stage.

Could Film Dev have done better? Maybe, but I think you're possibly being unrealistic here.
 
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h'mm you missed the last bit "When I did a home scan they were OK" and what about the CA :eek:...and IMO you can't really go wrong with a night shot using a modern camera (well about 1980s) to work out exposure and then after, you would fiddle with the bright bits and shadows in say Photoshop (or in the darkroom).
Will I be using Filmdev again? Of course as their low scan and prices suit me and if they make a cock up once in a blue moon scanning it doesn't worry me even if coincides with a winning shot, as I can always home scan that frame.
 
Hmm, interesting thoughts. Having thought about this (I've been off work now for ages so had plenty of time to do so!) I think developing and scanning myself may be something I look to do in the future rather than immediately. I'm sure the desire will come once I have fired off a few rolls of lovely medium format... now to choose a camera :D
 
Remember me posting this, some other shots had this effect but some didn't.


and another one
TZImjPk.jpg


When I did a home scan they were OK

yeah damn shame about the CA, the RRover, the houses, road sky and trees
completely spoiled that shot they did

:)
 
Been scowering the bay and some other online shops, can't decide if I really do want to go for 6x6 or if I'd be happy with 6x4.5. I can always sell on as values seem to be only going up these days so I guess a cheaper Bronica ETRS or Mamiya 645 might be a better option. There are some really good condition examples around for about £250 too which is appealing to get started with at the moment.

One other thing is my tripod. It was pretty capable with my 6D and 70-200 for landscapes but not sure the bullhead will be up to it for medium format. Any recommendations that won't break the bank. Are there certain brackets that are better than others for this type of thing or is it all pretty universal? Arca-Swiss?
 
Been scowering the bay and some other online shops, can't decide if I really do want to go for 6x6 or if I'd be happy with 6x4.5. I can always sell on as values seem to be only going up these days so I guess a cheaper Bronica ETRS or Mamiya 645 might be a better option. There are some really good condition examples around for about £250 too which is appealing to get started with at the moment.

One other thing is my tripod. It was pretty capable with my 6D and 70-200 for landscapes but not sure the bullhead will be up to it for medium format. Any recommendations that won't break the bank. Are there certain brackets that are better than others for this type of thing or is it all pretty universal? Arca-Swiss?

I would heartily recommend going for the 6x6cm SQ series by Bronica over the 6x4.5 ETR-series cameras. Because the SQ cameras and its square format never need to be turned, it's actually smaller and better balanced in practical usage than the 6x4.5 cameras (which effectively require a heavy prism and speed grip rather than waist level finder if you want to shoot verticals) and this makes the square format far less demanding on your tripod (so you shouldn't need to spend any money on tripod-related equipment). Not to mention the negatives are bigger. If you really want to shoot 6x4.5cm, the SQ-series cameras do offer a 6x4.5cm back, although it's ordinarily easier to just crop.
 
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Well this is the first time I have posted without reading the thread,but,feel I do not need to.

Toe in the water,best buy body and lenses at the moment Bronica ETRSi plus lenses to compliment. I would suggest the 50mm, 75mm and 150mm.

You can buy this kit cheap and take brilliant MF photographs.

PS 645 cameras are great for landscapes and turn then for portrait job done.
 
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yeah damn shame about the CA, the RRover, the houses, road sky and trees
completely spoiled that shot they did

:)


Just for you John and to prove my point this is my home scan...but as said, filmdev can't spend too much time on each frame to keep costs down but something went wrong here as half the night shots were :eek: and the others OK.

hFkz7qW.jpg
 
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