Anyone with experience of Mud/Obsticle Events.

M

meatcandy89

Guest
I have a meeting set up for monday with an emerging business organising mud/obstacle run events around the UK. So ive been brain storming in my head ways that i could offer services to them to cover the event.
I.E, dayrate, or proceeds of pics only, how many photographers would be required etc.

Has anyone on here covered any of these events before like Tough Mudder or Spartan race etc? and if so how did you charge for your services and did it work well?

Hopefully things go well on monday and i can come to an agreement with them over covering the event and get an idea of what there looking for, as i see it as a bit of an emerging sport/activity coming from the US and just getting its roots over here.

My current thinking is to offer a package consisting of..

Being able to keep copyright to all photos taken to advertise for sale after the event to all the participants.
Getting the company to advertise on their website putting the word out for where the pictures will be hosted (probably through my website)
And a fee for providing this service.
And providing access to all the pictures to the company themself for use for commercial and media.

Probably be looking to get another couple of togs on board to cover the day and give them the commission of sales also.

Maybe i should figure this out for myself rather than posting on here? I was just hoping to pick some brains as ive not really had much experience in covering a large event like this.

From what i can gather (ill get a bit more of an insight after running in the north west tough mudder tomorrow) there will be some more photo friendly obstacles than others so i think between 1-3 persons would be enough to get a good overall coverage of the event.
 
As an event you would be looking to sell to the competitors like any other race. Knowing the course would help that way you could pick some good prime spots and then know how many photographers you'd need. Uploading to a web gallery would be the only way to achieve sales as you'd never get the images back to the finish in time.

So questions are:
Geographic location of each event.
Number of photographers to cover each course.
Web hosting with shopping cart.
Agreement with organisers to cover each event.
Organiser to distibute web details to competitors.
% required to organisers.
Number of entrants to make it worthwhile.
(above in no particular order)
 
If you're not already in this line of business are you sure you're not taking on more than you can deliver in the time available to the events?

There are plenty of established companies around the country that specialise in this sort of thing - so at the very least have a look at the sort of thing they do in terms of photographic quality, degree of coverage provided, e-commerce and gallery solutions, turn around times, pricing etc which should give you some food for thought.

I wouldn't say it was emerging over here, maybe the over-hyping and mega ego marketing is new but there are long established mud/obstacle races over here, the obvious one is tough guy and it's been going over 20 years now, and there are plenty of others that are more regional on a smaller scale.

In terms of the events themselves, you'll need to look at the length of course, spacing and "interest" of the obstacles and the number of competitors they expect so you can work out how many cameras you need and where on the course.

You also need to think about the difference between what the organisers might want in terms of articstic editorial stuff for event promotion and what will you'll be able to capture en-mass for the competitors.

Good luck
 
I dont see why you couldnt sell on the day. A runner in a off road bike or quad could collect cards and get back long before the first runner finishes.

Theres one of these events happening tomorrow at Brands Hatch, if you not too far may be worth scouting it for logistic soloutions.

Sam
 
sambloxxy said:
I dont see why you couldnt sell on the day. A runner in a off road bike or quad could collect cards and get back long before the first runner finishes.
Sam
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Yes thats a possibility but its all down to numbers. Any event will generate £xx. Depending on this amount determines how much you spend on additional photographers and the number of photographers determines the degree of coverage.Adding card runners increases the costs and TBH I would think most of the competitors would want to get showered and changed before looking at any photographs. I cover quite a lot of 10k, half,full marathons and there is little interest in looking through photographs after an exhausting run.
 
One thing to think about, thousands of photos will be taken by each photographer and you need to be able to sort them some way so that the competitors can search for images of themselves. This is normally done by entry number in the exif which for you is great as they normally put it on their foreheads with a marker. You will probably want to ship this task out to china/india and get the images processed rather than doing them all yourself if your going to meet the requirements of the event and have the images online within 72 hours (Tough guy requirements)

Not sure if you have done an event with lots of competitors similar to these but an idea for you I shot a triathlon covered the run and the cycle a few months ago only about 350 competitors so not that big and produced over 2700 saleable images (~1500 running and ~1300 of the cycle) most of these events are larger than that.

It is becomming huge people wanting somthing different from the normal 10k's and marathons so yes its a good market to get in to but a lot of the existing events already have event photographers set up by the look of it. I would think that to get somthing like this sorted you would be needing to give a better deal for the organiser and possible a bit of a sweetner? A decent profesional and easily navigateable website as well so even more money to spend.
 
I took part in a 10K event like this a couple of months ago, it was a 5k course of which you did 2 laps, there were approx 4 photographers on that lap.

There were no print sales on site, all sales were digital downloads via an online gallery and were available about 3 days after the event, all competitors are given a 'goody bag' at the end, make sure you have a card in it, IIRC there were waves of 100 runners starting every 15 minutes totalling about 2500 for the day, thats a LOT of photos to sort through...
 
well after taking part in one today. (tough mudder NW) i can say the last thing in the world i would have wanted to do is spand anymore time than necessary in the cold mudy wet gear even if people were giving away free pictures! ill write a little more tomorrow. absolutely exhausted now.
 
I competed in Tough Mudder Scotland earlier this year. They have several photographers stationed throughout the course. The photos were then made available online a week or so later and were accessed by searching you race number on the website. You could then choose which photos you wanted to buy etc. I think the photos were priced around £50 each, which I thought was too expensive and off putting for a lot of people who might have purchased the pictures had they been more affordable.

Before anyone moans at me, I know £50 isn't a great deal for a picture (8x10 or whatever it was). However when you factor in thousands of competitors spread over several days, I think it would be wiser to reduce the price in the hope of increasing sales.
 
Hi Tom
If you would like to pm me, I could give you some more info.
It is what we do along with triathlons.
We have a mud run happening very soon, still opened to runners there are 900 at the moment.
Adrian
 
sambloxxy said:
I dont see why you couldnt sell on the day. A runner in a off road bike or quad could collect cards and get back long before the first runner finishes.

Theres one of these events happening tomorrow at Brands Hatch, if you not too far may be worth scouting it for logistic soloutions.

Sam
Click to expand...

Are you going to be at Brands? I have a couple of mates competing and I'm sure they'd appreciate photos. Bib numbers 515 & 516
 
It is very hard to sell on site to the runners. It's normally cold they are wet and the last thing they want to do is look a photos.
But as soon as they are home we get the pre-reg emails. We now have it down to a fine art and normally have images on line that evening.
 
outsourcing exif tagging the runners to china? and how much/where do you find that kind of service? ive been googling all sorts and cant find anything of the sort?
 
i think im going to decide against doing it as i havnt got enough spare gear myself for the event. ive only got my primary setup and no backup camera or backup telephoto. If i took it on i would have to get other shooters for the day who would have kit but i dont think that ive got enough kit to be organising the whole days coverage.
Im a little gutted i decided this because ive been brainstorming for days about it but i think it may be a little more than i can chew.
 
Where is the event? expected number of entrants? Size of circuit loop? Make sure you have all the details before you make the decision, you can always hire in equipment if needed, it sounds like a potential opportunity so think hard before turning it down.
 
PaulJC said:
Where is the event? expected number of entrants? Size of circuit loop? Make sure you have all the details before you make the decision, you can always hire in equipment if needed, it sounds like a potential opportunity so think hard before turning it down.
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I agree with Paul think hard before you turn it down. You could alway chat with organiser before you make up your mind
 
meatcandy89 said:
outsourcing exif tagging the runners to china? and how much/where do you find that kind of service? ive been googling all sorts and cant find anything of the sort?
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Try searching for outsource image processing loads in India. A lot only advertise the standard stuff but they will do the exif details as well. You could ask your photogrpaphers to edit their shots and upload them to you within XX hours or somthing but then your open to their pp skills varying as well.

As for kit you don't need it unless you plan to shoot as well. You get photographers in to shoot the event with you and they bring their own kit, you then hope that they know how to use it and you build up a team of regular photographers you use when you find the good ones.

Go see them and see what they want, no point going in saying you will give them 10% of sales and discover they were looking for more and loosing the job. There are plenty of companies out there who you could team up with and make use of their knowlege in running the photography at this scale of event. Getting a foot in the door is the hard part and you have already done that so run with it.
 
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Dont need anything special just a camera (sports prefered) and something like a 70-200 f2.8 lens. If the entry numbers are around a 1k mark whay not just split into thje sections that you are covering (say 1k mark, 3k mark finish etc). Many like to just browse through the images or look for friends etc. Covering events can be simple or as hard as you want to make it. If you want any more ideas please feel free to give me a call (y)
 
This is the sales site of the event i have taken part in, £7.95 per download, only 2 photographers per lap on one of the events.

I think we bought one download each (i may have bought 2 with it being my first ever event) so at least £24 in the tin for the photographers from just 3 out of the 3000 odd people there.

http://xrunner.co.uk/photo-sales/

I could be interested as a photographer if the event is local, a lot of people even stopped and posed for their photo making the photographers job even easier and mostly the photos were done at pinch points where the action was slowed by obstacles and with flash so it's not something the latest top of the range kit would be needed for.
 
thanks for all the advice people, i thought twice before turning it down and glad i didnt :)
 
Well glad i went to have a chat about the event, turns out it is probably a little too much to take on with no prior experience of the events or anything on that scale. Its going to be huge and not what i expected for a companies first event :p
 
I sent myself to cover Tough Mudder in Northants earlier this year. My pal was taking part so I'd offered to immortalise his blood/sweat/tears.

http://www.davidanthonyfearn.com/toughmudder

To be honest I was hoping to catch a celeb in the mud and wire to papers, but no such luck. It made for interesting work though.

Along the way I met the only paid snapper who'd been hired by the PR agency. I spotted probably another six along a 12 mile course, and having spoken to the PR folks they made it clear they'd brought in the rest as volunteers.

They also were not interested in purchasing my set of images (on offer at a very reasonable day rate) as they "didn't have a budget for it". This despite heavy demand on their FB page from competitors in the days proceeding the event (they had no photo ID system so i'm guessing direct sales were very low and used for promo only).

I'd like to make my opinion clear: the practice by commercial companies of hiring 'volunteers' is despicable. It plays on the enthusiasm and generosity of good amateur snappers for their own gain, and ultimately its just illegal. I went of my own volition, which isn't the same thing of course.

If we're talking about the same outfit here I do hope their setup is improved for this and future events. Nobody should be working for free.

Sorry I know thats a little unrelated, but major gripe for a working guy like myself!
 
I did approach another similar event taking place up north, and whilst they were better in wanting to employ paid photographers to cover the event, they were offering £150 per snapper.

I don't feel that is an acceptable amount that we should be working for - its hard work, all day, with specific risks and considerable edit time, not to mention expenses like travel and accomm (if you're far away like me!).
 
£150 is a damn site better than a lot of places, im still talking to the event organiser of the event but in conjunction with an event photography agency, in the hope that at least i may get a days work out of it.

Im suprised at the practices of brightroom, i thought they were a more respectable agency than to get people working for them as "voulenteers" i suppose they were doing it for "the experience" and the "getting in there" with the agency.......
 
£150 really is not an acceptable days' wage for a working photographer. If people are working for that much they won't survive very long.

And to be clear, I am talking about a days' work, which this is. It'd be different for PR or events for 1-2hrs, which is commonplace.

And for the record, I never interacted with Brightroom, only the PR agency responsible for the event.
 
dafphotographer said:
£150 really is not an acceptable days' wage for a working photographer. If people are working for that much they won't survive very long.

And to be clear, I am talking about a days' work, which this is. It'd be different for PR or events for 1-2hrs, which is commonplace.
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That equates to £37,500 a year for a 5 day week which is more than the average wage, i dont earn that much in my "normal" day job and i for one would survive very long and happily if my current employer were to give me a £10,000 a year rise to bring me up to that level.

I know things are more expensive down in London and the southern counties but i have a brother who lives in Grenwich and he also gets by on less than £37,500 working on the underground.

I personally know 3 "staffers" who dont earn £30,000 a year let alone £37,500, i understand that freelancers/self employed/agency shooters can and do earn more and to be fair earn every single penny they earn.

Maybe things are very different down south and im sure there are factors im not aware of but to say someone wouldn't survive long on £150 a day is a bit of a blanket statement and not really true.

:thinking:
 
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Useful maths Gary.

Does your brother shell out £20K+ on equipment to do his job? Does he have to insure it all? Does he need special computer equipment and software too? And what about training - does he pay for his own learning and development too?

Excuse me for being pithy but its important to make a distinction between a regular salary income and the actual cost of being self employed. The sustained overheads of being self employed are not comparable to an average wage anywhere in the country.

There are other factors to consider such as sick pay, pensions etc.
 
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dafphotographer said:
Useful maths Gary.

Does your brother shell out £20K+ on equipment to do his job? Does he have to insure it all too? Does he need special computer equipment and software too? And what about training - does he pay for his own learning and development too?

Excuse me for being pithy but its important to make a distinction between a regular salary income and the actual cost of being self employed. The sustained overheads of being self employed are not comparable to an average wage anywhere in the country.

There are other factors to consider such as sick pay, pensions etc.
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I did edit my post while you were replying, the second from last and last sentence reflects part of your reply
 
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The nature of freelancing work should also be factored in. Jobs are intermittent and unpredictable in when they may occur. For many its not a 5 day week so your maths is redundant.

Of course if you are working 5 day weeks and you can have rates that reflect that then yes it would be a fairly lucrative income, but these days thats the exception rather than the rule.
 
Ive turned down a couple of opportunities to possibly go full time, there were no guarantees of actual income and to be honest im a bit of a coward and dont like the risk involved, i much prefer the safety net of my guaranteed wage from my day job with the chance to up that by 50% doing agency/freelance work on commission, i refuse to work on the 70-30 split system with no guarantees but thats a personal choice.

If i were 20 years younger i would have jumped at the chance though, im comfortable at my stage of life and the change and pressure would probably tip me over into an already warm coffin.

I applaud the guys who have taken the plunge.
 
By the way David, you'll notice under my username is what the Mods have decided to call me, this might give you some insight into how others and in particular the mods see me, theres also a Waldorf on here as well. :LOL:
 
considering i dont even make half that in my day job i know which i'd prefurr :D But i do understand that its not enough of a wage to spend 30+ on petrol and if you needed to pay for accomodation its not worth it, even though at this point in my photography i make a loss on everything i do so anythings a plus :D

For example, i just drove for 20 mins to find out the match was called off for frozen pitch! fuming that £10 petrol just got wasted and didnt even get the experience i wanted out of it :p (not that if it had been on i would have made anything!)
 
I would be a hired gun for £150 per day, most of the time things like this are shoot using the event photography companys cards or hand yours over at the end of the day for them to be dropped to disk and the company does all the processing etc. Its not easy shooting all day pretty much none stop but your capturing images of people taking part in the event for them to buy not producing a work of art, get some nice angles and a clean background so they stand out and your half way there.
 
It depends on what basis you're earning £150.

It's good money for an event photographer (camera for hire).

It's decent/average for a shift for a National paper.

It excellent for a local/regional paper.

It a pittance for a commercial job.

It's poor for PR work.
 
£150 a day is fine with me, and I’ve done a few event days at that rate. It’s not always easy money but I get paid reliably and don’t have to worry about making the sales.
The agency I work for like to squeeze things nowadays, only paying half or three quarters of day rate for less hours worked. I’ve even been told to forget the “wait ‘til the last competitor” instruction and get what I can in 4 hours at an event for a half day’s pay. When there’s two or three hours travelling involved and they pay mileage but not travelling time then it becomes less attractive.
I suppose their sales are being squeezed too. In fact when there have been two or three of us on a job we usually end up speculating how little profit is being made from our work. Is the agency profiteering or would it be uneconomic to pay us more? We generally decide it’s the latter.
In the end I usually take the jobs since I almost always enjoy it and if I don’t do them then it’s money I won’t have….
 
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