Anyone with experience of Mud/Obsticle Events.

duncolm said:
In the end I usually take the jobs since I almost always enjoy it and if I don’t do them then it’s money I won’t have….
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Fair comment but would depend on distance to travel? £50 in fuel & food would still leave £100 so who would concider this?
 
snapzz said:
Fair comment but would depend on distance to travel? £50 in fuel & food would still leave £100 so who would concider this?
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Just how far would anyone need to travel to spend £50 on fuel and a bit of grub, £50 would take me 500 miles in my car but would take abour 10 hours in travelling time plus prep time, game time, editing time and youre probably looking at 20 hours.

I dont mind the £100 but theres no way i would spend £50 of my own money on travel and food or 20 hours input.
 
Gary, £50 is about 110 miles at HMRC rates (45ppm), which isn't far off real costs if you take wear & tear, business insurance, all fuel ( ie veh consumables) etc into account.

That's without accounting for food. Mileage isn't just about the stuff you chuck in the fuel tank.
 
Well if i could travel a 100 mile round trip, spend 2 hours at ground then 2 hours editing and clear £100 after travelling expenses and food which is free anyway at ground then yes, i do that on a regular basis.

I only work on commission, never done and never will do the 70/30 split, seen too many guys go 6-8 weeks without a single photo being published so no pay but a lot of outlay, just a personal choice though and fully understand lots of guys have no other option to work on the split fee basis.

Swings and roundabouts i suppose, i get guaranteed money everytine i step out the door, sometimes from as many as 4 sources for the one game, commission rate from agency, plus a split payment from regional paper, payment from other regional/local paper of "other team" and the odd show in Nationals.

Now i certainally dont make a fortune and nowhere near enough to go full time or even consider it, and i shoot Rugby League which isn't the best of paid work compared to shooting premiership football (depending on National shows)

There are some muppets out there who have £10-15k in gear and shoot freelance without having any agency ties, local or regional paper contacts or National work and submit to the 2 trade papers for £15 per image published and probably get 1 image published every 2 weeks. Figure that one out if you can.

If my mate Ste is looking in on this thread he'll know who i mean.
 
Gary I understand what your saying and have experienced both sides. I've done my time chasing spec pics in the prem and now only work on commissions. The reason why I was asking about the £150 was to see when put in different ways what people thought if a "fair" amount or not.

dafphotographer said:
I did approach another similar event taking place up north, and whilst they were better in wanting to employ paid photographers to cover the event, they were offering £150 per snapper.

I don't feel that is an acceptable amount that we should be working for - its hard work, all day, with specific risks and considerable edit time, not to mention expenses like travel and accomm (if you're far away like me!).
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Looking at your website you mostly cover sports on spec so really your chasing sales and although I dont know your usage rate I'd guess its not every game. What I cant understand is your prepared to travel at your own cost and if not get any usage or (say) every third game? may then only end up breaking even. But you then (quote) feel it is not acceptable to work for £150 per day! Any sports pro working on a national newspaper commission will only get £175 per game so not far of and I've know some travel from near Gatwick up as far as Hartlepool & Hull covering for the Sunday papers.

When I've advertised for additional photographers some (no experience) have even offered to shoot for free. Some happy with what I've offered and some wont get out of bed for that amount. Those that do get offered additional work and those that dont can stay in bed. There is a lot of work around which pays about £100 + travel and there are a lot of good photographers who go under because they say its not enough.I'm not having ago at anyone on here but was interested in peoples thoughts and what figure would be acceptable.
 
Graham, didnt you read my last post??? im never prepared to travel at my own cost unless local within about 10 miles and i get 100% guaranteed usage, Nothing on spec ever Graham i wont leave the house as already said unless im getting paid, as for usage, i get at least 4 from every game i attend used in the 2 trade papers and usage in regional and locals every week and the odd national usage.

Most weeks when i look through the trades on Monday i get 6-8 used throughout the whole paper, i dont get paid any extra for more usage from the trades as ive already been paid a commission from my agency to supply the trade papers, i do get extra for supplying Local/Regional/French press and Nationals.

Grand Final weekend on Oct 2nd if i remember correctly i got about 36 used in trades, 12 in regionals and 2 in Nationals and several in the French press as well.

Same during the recent England/Wales/France tri nations games but with a lot more usage in French press.

Can only think you either didnt read my last post or didnt understand. (y)

Wasn't thinking you were having a go either Graham.


snapzz said:
Gary I understand what your saying and have experienced both sides. I've done my time chasing spec pics in the prem and now only work on commissions. The reason why I was asking about the £150 was to see when put in different ways what people thought if a "fair" amount or not.



Looking at your website you mostly cover sports on spec so really your chasing sales and although I dont know your usage rate I'd guess its not every game. What I cant understand is your prepared to travel at your own cost and if not get any usage or (say) every third game? may then only end up breaking even. But you then (quote) feel it is not acceptable to work for £150 per day! Any sports pro working on a national newspaper commission will only get £175 per game so not far of and I've know some travel from near Gatwick up as far as Hartlepool & Hull covering for the Sunday papers.

When I've advertised for additional photographers some (no experience) have even offered to shoot for free. Some happy with what I've offered and some wont get out of bed for that amount. Those that do get offered additional work and those that dont can stay in bed. There is a lot of work around which pays about £100 + travel and there are a lot of good photographers who go under because they say its not enough.I'm not having ago at anyone on here but was interested in peoples thoughts and what figure would be acceptable.
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And there I was thinking that this thread was about mud running.
 
Gary, wasnt refering to you only in the first section. Second part was in reference to the quote made by dafphotographer. Sorry if it seemed confusing :)
 
Could say that about 80% of the posts on here :D
 
Going back to something said earlier.. Went to chance my arm at an all day t20 cricket event.. there was half a dozen of these guys already there

guildphoto.jpg
 
preston guild every 20 yrs and lasts a week official but longer.. every single event (not just sports) covered by these guys.. and all pics on fliker or whatever its called...

proud of the fact they where doing it for free..enough to wear the bib announcing it ..

PS just about all from the same camera club.. so surely must know?
 
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Gary
I know his name is Tom.
We went into PM and I sent a fair amount of info to him.!
 
ARG said:
Gary
I know his name is Tom.
We went into PM and I sent a fair amount of info to him.!
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I know you did, i was being sarcastic because you hadnt actually made a contribution to the thread except to take some info to PM, whats the point in that when you could have shared that information on thread with us all, isn't thast the exact point of forums, but what was the point in saying the thread had gone off topic, none, it was a natural progression of the thread.
 
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If I want to talk via PM I can. There are some thing I do not want to say in an open forum and why should I, so keep your teddy in your pram.
 
Can we not let descend in the way that other threads do. I like to think we're quite friendly here in the sports bit.

Thanks
 
Do you know with people on this forum like you GARY. I do not want to be a member.

Mods please cancel and close my account or email me how to do so.

Good bye to all the good pro photographers out there.
 
snapzz said:
Looking at your website you mostly cover sports on spec so really your chasing sales and although I dont know your usage rate I'd guess its not every game. What I cant understand is your prepared to travel at your own cost and if not get any usage or (say) every third game? may then only end up breaking even. But you then (quote) feel it is not acceptable to work for £150 per day! Any sports pro working on a national newspaper commission will only get £175 per game so not far of and I've know some travel from near Gatwick up as far as Hartlepool & Hull covering for the Sunday papers.

When I've advertised for additional photographers some (no experience) have even offered to shoot for free. Some happy with what I've offered and some wont get out of bed for that amount. Those that do get offered additional work and those that dont can stay in bed. There is a lot of work around which pays about £100 + travel and there are a lot of good photographers who go under because they say its not enough.I'm not having ago at anyone on here but was interested in peoples thoughts and what figure would be acceptable.
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Demi Lion summed up perfectly the different types of work for £150. This is crucial and I should've explained myself better. Shift pay for editorial/newspapers is dwindling so the above would be average. The OP is talking about a commission from a PR agency for a days' work, and in this instance £150 is not acceptable, given the commercial value of said images to the client.

Yes, I pay my bills with PR and events and occasional sport commissions, and for everything else I spec for agencies. This is not the same as working for free (although it can feel like that sometimes!), and i'm happy "chasing sales" because ultimately i'm developing a career in the top level of sport, ie. working for bigger agencies.

Editorial use of images is a business on its knees, and whilst thats another discussion entirely, I'm willing to humbly wait in line and keep honing my skills. This is deliberate - the business experience I gain working as I currently do cannot be replicated on a local level.

I'd apply the same opinions to any ad I saw in the paper. I would not be prepared to work for free where some other entity is gaining commercially, and neither should anyone else. The difficulty is there are many good amateurs who are willing to work for free or for low pay because their hobby is subsidised by other income (I hear pros call them 'weekend warriors' but I don't like that term). And amateurs are perfectly entitled to do that. Its the job of a good pro to excel beyond that competition, to reliably and consistently produce when required, not just when desired, and in all manner of situations and challenges.

Then there is the value of the image as a product, which has depreciated via commodification courtesy of many variables over time. The amount some outfits think an image is worth paying for is increasingly shocking, and it makes our work very difficult indeed. At some point we can all be forced to take underpaid work just to get by, and in doing that we all affect the intrinsic value of the image.

Are five chicken wings really worth £1? That's what they go for round my area, because that's what people have come to expect to pay.

Its hard, it really is.
 
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Gary Coyle said:
Huh!!!!!!!!!!
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After your onesie's post I can't say I'm surprised at his response.

Santa really isn't going to visit you this year.

This is the second warning to everyone. If you have nothing good to say, don't say it at all.
 
I want a onesie! Some of our rugby team (adult men) are wearing Christmas themed onesie's tomorrow night for our club's Carol night. I'll try and get pictures but can't promise anything as I'm in plaster lol

Anyway, let's not take this too much off track
 
dafphotographer said:
Demi Lion summed up perfectly the different types of work for £150. This is crucial and I should've explained myself better. Shift pay for editorial/newspapers is dwindling so the above would be average. The OP is talking about a commission from a PR agency for a days' work, and in this instance £150 is not acceptable, given the commercial value of said images to the client.

Yes, I pay my bills with PR and events and occasional sport commissions, and for everything else I spec for agencies. This is not the same as working for free (although it can feel like that sometimes!), and i'm happy "chasing sales" because ultimately i'm developing a career in the top level of sport, ie. working for bigger agencies.

Editorial use of images is a business on its knees, and whilst thats another discussion entirely, I'm willing to humbly wait in line and keep honing my skills. This is deliberate - the business experience I gain working as I currently do cannot be replicated on a local level.

I'd apply the same opinions to any ad I saw in the paper. I would not be prepared to work for free where some other entity is gaining commercially, and neither should anyone else. The difficulty is there are many good amateurs who are willing to work for free or for low pay because their hobby is subsidised by other income (I hear pros call them 'weekend warriors' but I don't like that term). And amateurs are perfectly entitled to do that. Its the job of a good pro to excel beyond that competition, to reliably and consistently produce when required, not just when desired, and in all manner of situations and challenges.

Then there is the value of the image as a product, which has depreciated via commodification courtesy of many variables over time. The amount some outfits think an image is worth paying for is increasingly shocking, and it makes our work very difficult indeed. At some point we can all be forced to take underpaid work just to get by, and in doing that we all affect the intrinsic value of the image.

Are five chicken wings really worth £1? That's what they go for round my area, because that's what people have come to expect to pay.

Its hard, it really is.
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Good post (y)
As I posted early I wasnt having a go at anyone in particular but did pick up on yours as its something I do have experience with both as a sports and event photographer.

dafphotographer said:
The difficulty is there are many good amateurs who are willing to work for free or for low pay because their hobby is subsidised by other income
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Relevant to Kipax's post earlier also regarding "volunteer photographers". Often pro's are classed as "moaners" by people who work for free or credits but for every job they cover potentially is a paying job less for those who earn their living from photography. This is something many either fail to understand or just dont care. The media and charities do take advantage of this as they know they can cut costs and save money. "Weekend Warriors" I dont have a problem with providing they charge accordingly and present a set of accounts each year. In this case we are all on the same level playing field.
 
ARG said:
Do you know with people on this forum like you GARY. I do not want to be a member..
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Our plans working Gary.. soon there will be just me and you mate :)

PS.. Forum rules state no goodbye posts ??????
 
snapzz said:
The media and charities do take advantage of this as they know they can cut costs and save money.
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Im 100% sick to the back teeth of so called charities scrounging for free images, i have given freely my time and images to various charities but drew the line earlier this season and no longer bother at all, ive contributed images to the Jumping Jack charity on 3 separate occasions but drew the line when contacted by someone who wanted to create a book to sell for charity which was all about RL Grounds, he wanted several hi res images of all the grounds i have photos of, i have just had enough and told him i no longer can be bothered and im accepting donations to my own charity.

I know its a rubbish attitude but i had to draw the line somewhere

Baaa, humbug.
 
KIPAX said:
Our plans working Gary.. soon there will be just me and you mate :)

PS.. Forum rules state no goodbye posts ??????
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Haha. You won't get rid of me so easy ;) :p
 
Haha. You'll be lucky. I don't like jaffa cakes :D
 
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