Apple Mac versus PC - Grappling the Nettle

[afasoas]

I felt this deserved it's own thread following on from this discussion.

I'm trying to be relatively open minded and offer some fresh insight for those who find themselves faced with this decision. I'm not asking anyone to defend their prior purchasing decisions. And I don't want to turn this into a classic PC versus Mac debate. I just want to draw out some facts on hardware and experiences of the operating systems.

I'll admit to some bias - I'm always going to favour an open platform and that is singularly the most important key factor in bringing about the home computing revolution that started in the 80s and the advances of Internet in the 90s. I'm not going to deny the success of Apple or their relevance to technology. But without a doubt, it's not hard to see that some of their business practices are unsavoury and their profit margins verging on obscene.

Just sticking with the hardware initially, I thought I'd do a real world cost comparison. This excludes any special offers or discounts.

I found I could spend £1560 on a Lenovo Laptop and I get:

• Quad Core i7 CPU
• 256GB SSD
• 8GB Memory
• 15.6" 2880x1620 full IPS display
• One of the best keyboards in the business
• DisplayPort, HDMI, RJ45 ports
• Wireless AC, WWAN
• 16 hour battery life
• 3 years on-site support.

If I drop £1749 on an MBP I get:

• Dual Core i5 GPU
• 256GB SSD
• 8GB Memory
• 13.3" 2560 x 1600 Retina Display
• A keyboard which, for a touch typist I feel is devoid of feel and travel
• 2x Thunderbolt PortsWireless AC
• 10 hour battery life1 year RTB warranty

So that's +£189 for the MBP and I still have half as many cores and a smaller display.
If I step up to a 15" MBP (15.4" 2880x1800 Retina Display) I can get a quad core i7 CPU and 16GB RAM but we are up to £1,899 or +£339. For that kind of money we're now looking at PC laptops with NVidia Quadro discrete graphics, dual hard disks etc.

In it's favour, the MBP 15" is slimmer and lighter than the £1560 Lenovo Laptop I've detailed above. Slimmer by about 7mm and lighter by 500 grams.

If I buy the MBP I still only have 1 year RTB warranty. If a genius goes near it, I'll lose my data. It's not upgradeable. And special tools are needed to replace the battery or SSD when it's out of warranty. If I break the wafer thin and delicate IPS panel, chances are it will cost a lot of money even if I go to an independent repairer because supply of spares is restricted.

In summary, I think the PC Laptop wins this contest. There's literally more bang for book in terms of processing power, more connectivity, better battery life and a much better warranty. The only areas in which the Lenovo loses out are perhaps it's appearance, it's 7mm thicker form factor and 500 gram weight penalty.

So having drawn a few observations about costs, hardware etc, we're left a much tougher comparison; The Operating System.

Windows has come on in a few huge leaps since the advent of Windows 7 whilst OS X (now MacOS) feels like its been much more evolutionary, despite some serious changes under the hood since it's first release in 2001. We also have Linux and BSD alternatives to consider too. I've used Windows and Linux on a daily basis for a long time now. And I've come into contact with OS X on a fairly regular basis. Each and every operating system has it's strengths and weaknesses and I think in summary there's no clear winner.

Windows no longer deserves it's reputation for slowing down, is more stable than it's ever been, has enormous support for a wide range of hardware and peripherals, amazing support of legacy applications and peripherals whilst adopting new features at a rate of knots now that Microsoft have ditched the big bang approach to new releases. PowerShell have evolved into an amazing powerful scripting tool that can leverage anything that's included in the .NET Framework and it's easier to manage than any of it's contemporaries in a larger environment.

The biggest drawback with Windows is it's licensing cost for Enterprise and server versions, although that doesn't really apply to this discussion.

Linux is a viable choice for those looking for an alternative to Windows. The user experience both in-terms of setting it up and usability vary greatly between distributions and window managers, but the reason I use it is for it's tools, versatility and because it's free and open source. I've used Darktable as an alternative to LightRoom and Gimp as an alternative to Photoshop. Darktable was a real surprise - I had no issues using it and the results were more than satisfactory. Gimp has a steeper learning curve and still lacks features that I've become accustomed to in Photoshop. Not my first choice for professional photography - but as a hobbyist? Definitely a viable option.

Linux does have it's issues - I'm no fan of Network Manager and Windows seems to be the only OS that does DNS resolution properly. Distro upgrades can be problematic, as can support for some hardware. My experiences have been generally positive and I would recommend the likes of Linux Mint to anyone who wants a distribution that 'just works' for general purpose usage.

That leads me onto MacOS. I think it's boon is the consistent UI across applications. It's a very large positive and shouldn't easily be discounted. It is also worth mentioning there are some media applications that are either macOS only or there macOS brethren enjoy more features and better support. And finally, being a Unix based operating system means that you can download ports of many Linux applications or compile them yourself. This is another big win for a power user. The trade off - MacOS feels like a Sandbox compared to Windows and Linux. Granted, some users might be appreciative of that but as a power user, I find myself constantly reaching for the terminal or installing additional software to accomplish what I need. Or getting frustrated because I'm left in a position where I have to compile something from source. And the Sandboxing doesn't actually prevent the end user from effectively bricking their machine - filling disks up and installing updates that break attached third party hardware. Indeed, Windows seems to do a better job of this these days warning about compatibility problems caused by updates. I accept the third party hardware thing is a non-issue for most users, but I had to deal with fallout from a few old generation Mac Pro users who had PCIe cards for which support was withdrawn under Sierra.

I've really tried getting to grips with MacOS and whilst I'm some way there, I find it less intuitive then moving from Windows to Linux. I've had lots of 'fun' with both Parallels and Bootcamp. It's dismaying that there's still no real alternative to Windows Storage Spaces. And the network stack in MacOS is no better than that in Linux. MacOS might be better for folk who want a computer to 'just work' and whilst I appreciate that, it's still not a panacea.

In short, there's no clear winner when it comes to Operating System. It really depends on what you want. It is unfair to say macOS is better than Windows because it simply isn't. The reverse is also true.
Essentially, you're looking at premium for the privilege of running MacOS on Apple Hardware which amounts to around £350.

Worth the extra cost?
That's entirely up to you.

Edited for layout/typos/grammar

 

[dejongj]

As I already wrote, when comparing truly like for like I find the price difference neglible. However I won't deny that if price is the main criteria and one is happy to compromise or have different priorities in other criteria then one could always find a PC that is cheaper to proof the point.

Ultimately when you want the same decent laptop in a similar package then the cost is surprisingly similar.

Operating system is totally subjective both can do the same things they just go about it in a different way. I'm not a Windows fan as I find for what I do with it it takes too many mouse clicks, but others may prefer that. That is not down to me to judge.

I use Linux often for a specific purpose, I just couldn't have it as my daily operating system as it is just simply lacking mature applications that I require to operate reliably and interchangeably with others. But if it had the tools that one requires then why not.

The only best answer is to get that what you prefer, no need to force ones own decisions and reason up upon someone else, nor to seek validation for them.

Just my 2p.

 

[srichards]

There's also life of the product as well. Cost per year of use is an important factor.

 

[dejongj]

There's also life of the product as well. Cost per year of use is an important factor.

I agree, very important if you want to compare purely on cost.

 

[afasoas]

As I already wrote, when comparing truly like for like I find the price difference neglible. However I won't deny that if price is the main criteria and one is happy to compromise or have different priorities in other criteria then one could always find a PC that is cheaper to proof the point.

There are lots of other criteria I've touched on - the only price isn't the only compromise in either direction.

Ultimately when you want the same decent laptop in a similar package then the cost is surprisingly similar.

Maybe to you, but with an objective analysis it's around ~15-20% versus similarly pitched alternative offerings from mainstream manufacturers*. More when factoring the cost of Apple Care in order to get an equivalent on-site warranty.

*I'm partially responsible for procuring IT equipment - currently looking at sourcing some iMacs/MPs for an expanding design team

Operating system is totally subjective both can do the same things they just go about it in a different way. I'm not a Windows fan as I find for what I do with it it takes too many mouse clicks, but others may prefer that. That is not down to me to judge.

I won't disagree, it is subjective. But I have to pick you up on the part that I have emboldened. From a general perspective you might be right. But there are use cases in which there's software available on MacOS that isn't available on Windows and vice versa. I'd like some people to comment on those use cases. I can draw on my own experience, but it's possibly a little specialized. For example, Visual Studio under Windows is a different beast to recently released Visual Studio for OS X, the latter being based on Xamarin. But really, I emphasize I would like to hear some actual experiences that have effected people one way or another on either OS - part of the reason for moving this into it's own thread.

I use Linux often for a specific purpose, I just couldn't have it as my daily operating system as it is just simply lacking mature applications that I require to operate reliably and interchangeably with others. But if it had the tools that one requires then why not.

This is at odds with my experience. I'm deliberately not extolling one OS above the other, I'm trying to tease out some of the differences in a tangible and accessible way. I prefer using Linux at home but it'd be quite challenging at work. Likewise I don't think it's a first class OS for media and industrial design work.

I found it quite hard to actually find anything I could really criticise Windows for - there are a few things but I realise they won't affect the majority of users. There's the Windows 8.x UI I suppose..

But back to your point, there are lots of mature and well maintained open source applications available to Linux users - granted when it comes to open office documents there are very occasionally some formatting issues - and some tools are less well maintained/user friendly than others - but in general my experience has been really positive. I've not found a RAW file yet that DarkTable couldn't open in much the same way as Adobe Camera RAW. A zero day was publicised earlier this week and patched within a day. Both Apple and Microsoft would struggle to turn a patch around that quickly.

The only best answer is to get that what you prefer, no need to force ones own decisions and reason up upon someone else, nor to seek validation for them.

No one is forcing their opinions on anyone. What I've tried to do is open up a constructive discussion. Yes there is a price difference in hardware, but it's not the only difference. For example:

• The MBP is thinner and lighter
• The example Lenovo has more ports for connectivity
• The MBP enjoys higher resale values - important if you like to upgrade regularly
• The example Lenovo has a keyboard with a very nice action/travel

Just a few key differences I've highlighted.

By discussing the differences and the merits of each platform without misinformation ("The price difference is negligible" - for most of us it really isn't) and readers can hopefully come to a better understanding of their own preferences and reach a better decision.

 

[neil_g]

I'd have to agree that the latest OS from Microsoft and Apple are very much on par for performance and reliability. Its a bit like comparing an audi to a volkswagen, same thing under the bonnet but just looks a little different.

Resale value is always banded around too. Admittedly macs will always win there to some degree.

However buy a good system and you shouldnt have to keep swapping out. I'm still running 2nd gen i7 quad laptop and desktop systems as they both still have tonnes of grunt. Now that's bang per buck lifespan.

 

[ancient_mariner]

That's a well balanced overview in the OP.

Now that I no longer need a computer for my own business, if Lightroom and a couple of other applications woud run on Linux then I could happily move across. But all the OSs have benefits and bits of design stupidity, and it's very often a case of finding the one that pleases you more of the time than it annoys.

 

[dejongj]

There are lots of other criteria I've touched on - the only price isn't the only compromise in either direction.

Agreed, however it seemed to feature highlighly

Maybe to you, but with an objective analysis it's around ~15-20% versus similarly pitched alternative offerings from mainstream manufacturers*. More when factoring the cost of Apple Care in order to get an equivalent on-site warranty.

*I'm partially responsible for procuring IT equipment - currently looking at sourcing some iMacs/MPs for an expanding design team

It all depends what you are after and what you are willing to compromise on. I agree in a corporate environment the market for support tends to be rather different than for a consumer, and in my opinion often overpriced compared to the PC offering. Quite the opposite in the consumer market, so again it depends and there will be compromises.

I won't disagree, it is subjective. But I have to pick you up on the part that I have emboldened. From a general perspective you might be right. But there are use cases in which there's software available on MacOS that isn't available on Windows and vice versa. I'd like some people to comment on those use cases. I can draw on my own experience, but it's possibly a little specialized. For example, Visual Studio under Windows is a different beast to recently released Visual Studio for OS X, the latter being based on Xamarin. But really, I emphasize I would like to hear some actual experiences that have effected people one way or another on either OS - part of the reason for moving this into it's own thread.

Omnifocus is not available on Windows, I think it is one of the best GTD systems with great hooks into the operating system. It allows to me to trigger AppleScript in Email, integrate with calendaring and on the iPhone. Great tool that I was struggling to find something equivalent on Windows. I can't get along with Outlook, find it way too prescriptive and linear in its approach, and where is that unified inbox?

This is at odds with my experience. I'm deliberately not extolling one OS above the other, I'm trying to tease out some of the differences in a tangible and accessible way. I prefer using Linux at home but it'd be quite challenging at work. Likewise I don't think it's a first class OS for media and industrial design work.[/quite]
So that is similar then? For work, there is no project management tool that is feature rich and integrates sufficiently with Microsoft Project to share with customers. Likewise for diagramming that is compatible with Visio. Just to name two. For personal use, yes there are alternatives and yes they open files, but somehow I much prefer paying for Adobe tools than using these compromised tools. Those are my experiences.

I found it quite hard to actually find anything I could really criticise Windows for - there are a few things but I realise they won't affect the majority of users. There's the Windows 8.x UI I suppose..

I actually prefer Windows 8 and 10 interfaces; but just generally find it not as responsive, search is improved considerably but still not good enough, battery drain, inconsistency of desktop, and my gosh have you ever tried setting up a ruby on rails development environment...grrrr unnecessarily hard, albeit it was easier when installing Ubuntu in the command line Main reason I used it for is maintenance of some low level agents in Visual Studio.

But back to your point, there are lots of mature and well maintained open source applications available to Linux users - granted when it comes to open office documents there are very occasionally some formatting issues - and some tools are less well maintained/user friendly than others - but in general my experience has been really positive. I've not found a RAW file yet that DarkTable couldn't open in much the same way as Adobe Camera RAW. A zero day was publicised earlier this week and patched within a day. Both Apple and Microsoft would struggle to turn a patch around that quickly.[/quore]

As commented above - it is ok but still not ready as other platforms have moved on. However it is definitely my server of choice. Doesn't mean it can be sufficient for you or anyone else, I just don't think it is slick and supportive enough.

No one is forcing their opinions on anyone. What I've tried to do is open up a constructive discussion. Yes there is a price difference in hardware, but it's not the only difference. For example:

• The MBP is thinner and lighter
• The example Lenovo has more ports for connectivity
• The MBP enjoys higher resale values - important if you like to upgrade regularly
• The example Lenovo has a keyboard with a very nice action/travel

Exactly, and depending on what is more important that will depend what a true like for like comparison is.

By discussing the differences and the merits of each platform without misinformation ("The price difference is negligible" - for most of us it really isn't) and readers can hopefully come to a better understanding of their own preferences and reach a better decision.

To you it may be mis-information, to me it is reality when I compare it like for like. Sorry but by insisting other peoples view is mis-information I think you are at risk of going exactly the way you said you wanted to avoid in this thread.

 

[LCPete]

Most of the technical side is over my head I think tho that for someone like me a photographer on a bit of a budget the way to go is a windows desktop for editing and a macbook pro for travelling and and a bit lightroom editing while away
I bought a decent Dell i7 desktop a few years ago and have been able to upgrade it myself with new SSD drive extra internal hard disks and memory
Would I have been able to do that with an mac desktop?
For travel tho my retina macbook pro is brilliant with a decent battery life and good screen
At the time (2011) i couldn't find a comparable windoes laptop that would do the same job

 

[ancient_mariner]

It all depends what you are after and what you are willing to compromise on. I agree in a corporate environment the market for support tends to be rather different than for a consumer, and in my opinion often overpriced compared to the PC offering. Quite the opposite in the consumer market, so again it depends and there will be compromises.

My experience is that Dell warranties are cheaper and they offer next business day onsite support. Any kind of warranty with Apple involved either shipping the computer, or taking half a day off to visit a store and getting a slightly smug and arsey reception. A good friend's experience with the Reading store was that they would make appointments to view equipment for repair and then not honour them when the customer arrived in the shop having to travel 1 hour each way to get there, which is not helpful when they also run a small business. It may be that the (bigger) business channel is better, but for small businesses Apple are hard to recommend if you need warranty support.

The costing like-for-like is slightly tricky because most PC buyer will be upgrading their machines during their life when the cost of larger/faster parts had dropped. So my XPS now has 1.25GB of SSD storage for a total cost around £1200, but if I'd bought an equivalent spec XPS new then it would have been a lot more, and the equivalent Macbook would have been even more still.

 

[srichards]

The genius bars are awful. I'm sure apple support told me they had to honour walk ins with problems. The local apple repairer told me they had to as it was a condition of being an apple approved repairer.

 

[dejongj]

My experience is that Dell warranties are cheaper and they offer next business day onsite support. Any kind of warranty with Apple involved either shipping the computer, or taking half a day off to visit a store and getting a slightly smug and arsey reception. A good friend's experience with the Reading store was that they would make appointments to view equipment for repair and then not honour them when the customer arrived in the shop having to travel 1 hour each way to get there, which is not helpful when they also run a small business. It may be that the (bigger) business channel is better, but for small businesses Apple are hard to recommend if you need warranty support.

The costing like-for-like is slightly tricky because most PC buyer will be upgrading their machines during their life when the cost of larger/faster parts had dropped. So my XPS now has 1.25GB of SSD storage for a total cost around £1200, but if I'd bought an equivalent spec XPS new then it would have been a lot more, and the equivalent Macbook would have been even more still.

It all depends on your preferences and way of working. I was very mobile, and as such being able to walk into any store and jump the queue with my black Apple Care Pro card was a huge benefit opposed to arranging someone to be present. Nowadays that is not so much relevant anymore to me. But as I said, which ever way works best, there is no single correct answer to any of this.

 

[dejongj]

Here is another big difference - HiDPI screens and utilisation of monitors. Most windows managers in Linux are still lacking or relatively immature by just changing font DPI settings. Windows 10 is a lot better than 8, and infinitely better than Windows 7, but scaling and applications still don't seem that great. It is very polished in OSX and does allow for say the photo window to show at 1:1 whilst the UI is being scaled. It isn't just all or nothing. I find that very useful. Especially when working with both photos and code editors.

But again if you don't use a HiDPI for such purposes then it may not be that important and a good point to compromise on.

 

[afasoas]

It all depends what you are after and what you are willing to compromise on. I agree in a corporate environment the market for support tends to be rather different than for a consumer, and in my opinion often overpriced compared to the PC offering. Quite the opposite in the consumer market, so again it depends and there will be compromises.

For clarity, I'm talking about support from a consumer perspective. IME people do pay for Apple Care because they can't afford to replace their Mac if it breaks within a few years of buying it. It's an important consideration when saving and budgeting for such a device with limited disposable income.

To you it may be mis-information, to me it is reality when I compare it like for like. Sorry but by insisting other peoples view is mis-information I think you are at risk of going exactly the way you said you wanted to avoid in this thread.

Not sure how you are deriving this. The OP contains a price/feature comparison which highlights a clear price differential. I've researched a number of laptops/mobile workstations available to consumers from a number of mainstream manufacturers. I picked the example because it was possibly the closest off-the-shelf match in terms of it's actual specification. A 13" lower specification MBP is an additional £189, before Apple Care to cover the warranty shortfall. An equivalent 15" MBP, albeit with 16GB memory is an additional £339 before Apple Care - more than my own personal Laptop costs! I've deliberately left cheaper PC Laptop variations out of my comparisons because I want to ensure comparison with high build quality PC Laptops.

Arguably what I haven't done is a lifetime comparison - but that's quite difficult given that some people are in the practice of changing their laptop every couple of years and others will keep the same laptop until it breaks and cost of repair is unviable. I won't disagree that if you change your device every year or two and benefit from a Mac's residuals, it could work out cheaper. But if you hold onto devices for longer, it's inevitably going cost more. Particularly if the device needs to undergo repairs after the first twelve months of ownership.

On all of your other points in that post, I'm in broad agreement and I think they are adding to the debate. (It isn't all about cost)
If you can illustrate (based on RRP/available to consumer) the MB/MBP being comparable on price for similarly specification machines, then I'd be pleased to see it.

 

[neil_g]

Personally I think dell's on site service is better than Apple. My only real apple support experience is when they flatly refused to acknowledge a gpu fault on several Macbook pros as it was intermittent.

Dell next day on site, never quibbled. The optional accident cover excellent too, I once tipped an entire mug of sugared coffee into a latitude. They pretty much replaced everything bar the display next day

 

[ancient_mariner]

It all depends on your preferences and way of working. I was very mobile, and as such being able to walk into any store and jump the queue with my black Apple Care Pro card was a huge benefit opposed to arranging someone to be present. Nowadays that is not so much relevant anymore to me. But as I said, which ever way works best, there is no single correct answer to any of this.

How much was a black apple pro card? Should you have to pay extra to get a less poor RTB service (and it's STILL RTB).

 

[dejongj]

For clarity, I'm talking about support from a consumer perspective. IME people do pay for Apple Care because they can't afford to replace their Mac if it breaks within a few years of buying it. It's an important consideration when saving and budgeting for such a device with limited disposable income.

One year included, two year statutory, huge discounts for those with low disposable income; students. And able to make appointments online to go instore which is great unless you don't live anywhere near a store. I agree Dell's NBD onsite is great as well, and not bad value, but it is business day and during business hours which may not be the greatest for consumers. But I've used it about three times and they were good and professional. Unfortunately I couldn't name any other PC brand that does the same like what Dell and Apple do.

Not sure how you are deriving this. The OP contains a price/feature comparison which highlights a clear price differential.

It does however it was purely based upon price. Allow me to explain; the screen was different on the MacBook, the MacBook is lighter to highlight two of your points. Which is great if you don't care about a light laptop and then the Lenovo (no model was stated, may work). So it is not like for like, in fact I don't think that Apple has anything that competes or tries to compete with that particular model Lenovo that you choose.

I've researched a number of laptops/mobile workstations available to consumers from a number of mainstream manufacturers. I picked the example because it was possibly the closest off-the-shelf match in terms of it's actual specification.

And that is what it comes down to, and is my point regarding comparing like for like. It is truly hard to find a machine that is like for like;
- Casing
- Screen
- Storage
- Memory
- Power
- Battery live
- Portability (weight, size, including power supply)

And leaving out operating system preferences.

Something will nearly always be a compromise, for some it may be a deal breaker, for others it is not an issue at all.

Arguably what I haven't done is a lifetime comparison - but that's quite difficult given that some people are in the practice of changing their laptop every couple of years and others will keep the same laptop until it breaks and cost of repair is unviable. I won't disagree that if you change your device every year or two and benefit from a Mac's residuals, it could work out cheaper. But if you hold onto devices for longer, it's inevitably going cost more. Particularly if the device needs to undergo repairs after the first twelve months of ownership.

Whatever is left is a bonus - Interestingly my 2 year old Surface Pro 3 which was the same price as my 4 year old MacBook Air is valued second hand already at half what the MacBook Air is worth. But as I don't tend to sell my old gear it is academic to me, but could be a good consideration for others. And likewise Lenovo and Microsoft and Dell regularly have discount campaigns as well. One day the machine can be a lot cheaper than the next day

On all of your other points in that post, I'm in broad agreement and I think they are adding to the debate. (It isn't all about cost)
If you can illustrate (based on RRP/available to consumer) the MB/MBP being comparable on price for similarly specification machines, then I'd be pleased to see it.

I'll do it in the next few days - been through that back in October but prices will vary now. Ultimately most comparable would be like a Surface Book Pro (special on at the moment if you like Xbox One), or perhaps a Lenovo X1 Carbon (seems very cheap at the moment so a great buy), or perhaps a Dell Precision workstation. My colleagues swear by the HP Envy's, they love them. Personally I think they are too bulky, the power transformer is too heavy, battery live is not great. But then again if you are working from home on it, hardly ever take it out, then those are compromises that could swing it.

To me there is no single correct nor wrong answer to it, just to many variables and too many people who like different things.

It is very much like on a developers forum asking what their favourite code editor is like, and even when they are free there are huge arguments about which is best. By the way, of the free ones I really like Visual Studio Code and use that on Mac and Linux alike, but of IDE's I really do like Visual Studio on Windows, but my favourite is Jetbrains which is paid for, deals very well with HiDPI screens again and is just quick and never gets in the way to me. Yet Eclipse is free and many swear by it, I can't stand it.

It's all good, its great we prefer different things.

 

[dejongj]

How much was a black apple pro card? Should you have to pay extra to get a less poor RTB service (and it's STILL RTB).

I think it was £95 for a year. Compared to me not being able to work, it was money easily made back. And yes it is still RTB, but when the B is nearer than the H does it actually matter....Paying for increased service is totally normal isn't it? Don't you do that with all your service providers? I mean if you want short resolution times with same day service and they'll have to carry the spare parts it will cost more, if you are happy with next day service the cost is a bit less. What ever suits best, I'd argue there is no one size fits all.

But arguably, beside Dell and Apple which fix options are there? Or phone or tablet?

 

[ancient_mariner]

I think it was £95 for a year. Compared to me not being able to work, it was money easily made back. And yes it is still RTB, but when the B is nearer than the H does it actually matter....Paying for increased service is totally normal isn't it? Don't you do that with all your service providers? I mean if you want short resolution times with same day service and they'll have to carry the spare parts it will cost more, if you are happy with next day service the cost is a bit less. What ever suits best, I'd argue there is no one size fits all.

But arguably, beside Dell and Apple which fix options are there? Or phone or tablet?

I'd already paid extra for Applecare (more than £300 for that extra third year) so I should pay twice? This is also the first I've heard of that card - it certainly wasn't offered to me when I bought the original machine. And maybe I should live in London, where there are local Apple stores. My nearest store is Milton Keynes, which is about an hour away by the time I've parked and walked in. The friend I mentioned also has a 1 hour journey to get to his store, which tried to turn him away even when he had an appointment. Ironically he was a Dell owner while I was an Apple owner, both machines being bought within a couple of weeks, and his XPS being carried round the world for 5 years before being retired.

NBD is also good for private users - take the laptop to work with you, the service agent comes to your workplace & fixes it so you can take it home again that evening. No hassle arguing with a 'genius' either.

 

[sphexx]

My problem with the OP is this "profit margins verging on obscene". Profit margins are irrelevant to the end user so this affects the tone of the whole comparison.
One point missing in the comparison is that you can run Windows on your Mac but not "legally" or easily vice versa.
(Full disclosure, I prefer Macs but use Linux and Windows)

 

[dejongj]

As I said it all depends what compromise works for you. At my place of work I can't just have third party invetted people walk in. Not even when escorted. It may work for some, doesn't mean it works for all. Just like my example of going to the store doesn't work.

And I'm sorry but there is no point talking about individual friends who are send away when having an appointment. Unfortunately situations happen everywhere.

 

[Sejanus Aelianus]

I can't see that the original posting is much more than an expression of opinion. The conclusion that you pay a premium to use the Apple products doesn't make sense. You could just as easily claim that you pay a premium to use Windows based products, simply by shifting the choices around.

All in all not a very useful contribution.

 

[afasoas]

My problem with the OP is this "profit margins verging on obscene". Profit margins are irrelevant to the end user so this affects the tone of the whole comparison.
One point missing in the comparison is that you can run Windows on your Mac but not "legally" or easily vice versa.
(Full disclosure, I prefer Macs but use Linux and Windows)

A manufacturers profit margins may not be relevant to an end user, but I think they are relevant to consumers who make purchasing decisions. I think it's healthy for company's to make a reasonable profit on the sale of goods manufactured and services supplied. But Apple's consistent high profits are indicative of a board that puts share holders before customers.

One year included, two year statutory, huge discounts for those with low disposable income; students. And able to make appointments online to go instore which is great unless you don't live anywhere near a store. I agree Dell's NBD onsite is great as well, and not bad value, but it is business day and during business hours which may not be the greatest for consumers. But I've used it about three times and they were good and professional. Unfortunately I couldn't name any other PC brand that does the same like what Dell and Apple do.

Lenovo. HP offer a 3 year warranty but I'm not certain whether it's on-site or RTB.

It does however it was purely based upon price. Allow me to explain; the screen was different on the MacBook, the MacBook is lighter to highlight two of your points. Which is great if you don't care about a light laptop and then the Lenovo (no model was stated, may work). So it is not like for like, in fact I don't think that Apple has anything that competes or tries to compete with that particular model Lenovo that you choose.

And that is what it comes down to, and is my point regarding comparing like for like. It is truly hard to find a machine that is like for like;
- Casing
- Screen
- Storage
- Memory
- Power
- Battery live
- Portability (weight, size, including power supply)

And leaving out operating system preferences.

My choice came very close to matching most of those, but you are right there will always be small differences. As there are between PC Laptops produced by different manufacturers. You've also left out inclusive warranty, maintainability, upgrade-ability which are also different.

Apple and most manufacturers also offer a degree of configuration too, CPU/memory/SSD upgrades etc.

I could have picked a Dell XPS which I suspect contends more closely with the MacBook, but it's Prosumer and I suppose I was leaning towards devices that would appeal to more professional photographers and power users. HP's ZBook looks like a good contender and it's competitive too. But at £2k for the cheapest 4k option it's pricey. 16 GB RAM, 512 GB SSD, Discrete NVidia Quadro Graphics, less than 170g heavier than a MBP 15" and only 3mm thicker. I've never seen one in the flesh either.

The X1 Carbon in similar specs to that I've quoted previously with a 14" WQHD(2560 x 1440) IPS display drops in at £1,389.

Of course, if you buy a Lenovo machine, chances are you will want to do a clean install of the Operating System.

 

[Andy Taylor]

If I buy the MBP I still only have 1 year RTB warranty. If a genius goes near it, I'll lose my data. It's not upgradeable. And special tools are needed to replace the battery or SSD when it's out of warranty. If I break the wafer thin and delicate IPS panel, chances are it will cost a lot of money even if I go to an independent repairer because supply of spares is restricted.

Apple now covers machines purchased by individuals directly for up to 2 years under EU consumer law.
John Lewis usually offers 2 years warranty as standard.
Genius Bar repairs will always preserve data where possible (unlike some other services), although I realise that's more difficult with the latest MacBook Pros with soldered flash. My question would be - where's your backup?! Remember data that exists in one place only does not actually exist.
Restoring your data to a Mac is much easier than with Windows.

IBM just reported that deploying Macs results in a significant reduction in support costs overall. Their Japan office now issues MacBook Pros by default. https://9to5mac.com/2016/10/19/jamf-ibm-mac-deployment/
(This was before the latest machines were announced).

The biggest issue for me is that the MacBook Pro is now out of my price range, so I'll keep using the one I have for as long as possible.

 

[sphexx]

A manufacturers profit margins may not be relevant to an end user, but I think they are relevant to consumers who make purchasing decisions. I think it's healthy for company's to make a reasonable profit on the sale of goods manufactured and services supplied. But Apple's consistent high profits are indicative of a board that puts share holders before customers.

But that's just your opinion, it can be argued differently from different points of view, e.g. You could argue a manufacturer making big profits is more likely to survive and that may be in the consumers interests - I know that might be counter argued as well but that is the point I'm making!
By the way, I don't object to your OP which some may find helpful, it's just that I don't really believe in claims of objectivity. For example, one of the reasons that I prefer Macs is down to the appearance on the screen which is obviously entirely a matter of personal preference.

 

[sphexx]

Apple now covers machines purchased by individuals directly for up to 2 years under EU consumer law.
John Lewis usually offers 2 years warranty as standard.
Genius Bar repairs will always preserve data where possible (unlike some other services), although I realise that's more difficult with the latest MacBook Pros with soldered flash. My question would be - where's your backup?! Remember data that exists in one place only does not actually exist.
Restoring your data to a Mac is much easier than with Windows.

IBM just reported that deploying Macs results in a significant reduction in support costs overall. Their Japan office now issues MacBook Pros by default. https://9to5mac.com/2016/10/19/jamf-ibm-mac-deployment/
(This was before the latest machines were announced).

The biggest issue for me is that the MacBook Pro is now out of my price range, so I'll keep using the one I have for as long as possible.

And Apple now have a very good explanation of UK laws on sale of goods in their warranty section, which used to be very poor.

 

[Eloise]

Genius Bar repairs will always preserve data where possible (unlike some other services), although I realise that's more difficult with the latest MacBook Pros with soldered flash.

Apparently there is a special port on the motherboard for that very purpose (backup from soldered on SSD storage in case of fault/damage).

 

[Eloise]

By the way, I don't object to your OP which some may find helpful, it's just that I don't really believe in claims of objectivity. For example, one of the reasons that I prefer Macs is down to the appearance on the screen which is obviously entirely a matter of personal preference.

I would agree that the OP is only partially objective ... when comments start being made about the feel of the keyboard it becomes subjective.

It is true (and objective) that for a similar spec machine you pay more from Apple than you do from Windows "brands". But beyond that what is "best" is subjective - it's no more clear than Nikon vs Canon; DSLR vs Mirrorless!

 

[neil_g]

IBM just reported that deploying Macs results in a significant reduction in support costs overall. Their Japan office now issues MacBook Pros by default. https://9to5mac.com/2016/10/19/jamf-ibm-mac-deployment/
(This was before the latest machines were announced).

They wouldn't be biased at all with ibm jumping in to bed business wise with Apple..

 

[ancient_mariner]

As I said it all depends what compromise works for you. At my place of work I can't just have third party invetted people walk in. Not even when escorted. It may work for some, doesn't mean it works for all. Just like my example of going to the store doesn't work.

And I'm sorry but there is no point talking about individual friends who are send away when having an appointment. Unfortunately situations happen everywhere.

Maybe his appointment was taken by someone with a black pro support card.

To me, there's every point because it could happen to me too, and I mentioned it because I had specific knowledge rather than it being the mate of a bloke who wrote a blog that another mate read who posted it on facebook - if you get my drift. I feel somewhat responsible because I pointed him in the direction of Apple, and at times he's been let down badly (i.e. he and his wife have sometimes not had machines that they need for work) because of poor support from the people at Reading. When I see him next I'll probably mention that card you had, because it would be beneficial IF that store honoured it.

 

[Eloise]

I believe the Apple ProCare has been superceeded by Apple Joint Venture -- see http://www.apple.com/uk/retail/business/jointventure/terms.html

 

[Brom]

Apple MacBook has one major advantage over a windows pc...it doesn't come loaded with Windows 10.

 

[Eloise]

Apple MacBook has one major advantage over a windows pc...it doesn't come loaded with Windows 10.

Some people might say that was a major disadvantage...

Each to their own is what I say.

 

[ancient_mariner]

I believe the Apple ProCare has been superceeded by Apple Joint Venture -- see http://www.apple.com/uk/retail/business/jointventure/terms.html

Thanks - useful to know.

 

[Clactonian]

We are all very lucky and have freedom of choice. If you have the money buy what you fancy or what suits you. Where's the debate?

 

[neil_g]

We are all very lucky and have freedom of choice. If you have the money buy what you fancy or what suits you. Where's the debate?

I guess that's the tl;dr version.

The point is, the hardware is generally the same for the same price point. The rest (how the OS looks and works) is down to personal preference. No matter what some people spout.

 

[Sejanus Aelianus]

Where's the debate?

There's no debate to be had. This is just one or two people pretending to know more than their posts suggest they do know.

In reality, the choice of computer and operating system is down to the background and experience of the user. Those who are experienced in Windows will buy computers more or less optimised for Microsoft products. Those experienced in OS X will buy Apple equipment and those who are Linux oriented will aquire (quite possibly building from scratch) computers that reflect their requirements. People starting from scratch will be unable to make sensible decisions but will adapt to whatever they buy and then feel uncomfortable with any other OS.

That's how the small computer industry has functioned for the last thirty five years.

 

[neil_g]

This is just one or two people pretending to know more than their posts suggest they do know.

easy there chief. there are some pretty knowledgeable people that loiter in this section.

 

[Neilc28]

From my perspective support plays a key role, and working in enterprise I have found Apples support appalling, the networking was fundamentally broken in 10.10 following the whole discoveryd issue and multiple calls to Apple resulted in a "Refresh your mac" statement.

Quality Control/Assurance has gone rapidly downhill, in particular with the software. iOS and MacOS upgrades used to be full of improvements and feature-rich innovation, now it seems full of solutions to problems that you never had, and random buggyness.

As far as build-quality goes, they are beautiful well-built machines but sometimes they make sacrifices in order to achieve the slim desirability, culling the Ethernet port was horrendous in my opinion and with the Apple Ethernet Dongle causing crashes it was even more damning, I know that has since been resolved but let's not forget it happened, just like Vista happened [emoji6].

Performance-wise, the MacBook seems to no longer offer top-performance configurations and reviews from sites such as the Verge have actively stated that the new MacBook has struggled with demanding applications, bit of a worry considering the price-tag they command.


Truth is, I like the look and feel of them, generally dislike the OS (a few exceptions though), despise the support but love how they integrate the other Apple products together.

For me, I'd stick with a Dell Precision/XPS, Surface Pro or Lenovo as my choice as they offer the best of performance, portability, robustness at a price-point I could entertain, but if I was invested extensively in the House of Cook I would undeniably consider a mac.

 

[andyscott]

I use Final Cut Pro and a MacBook Pro,

the speed destroys any laptop and having to use Premiere pro.

4K video rendering is lightyears in difference. a 4 minute clip took 4 and half minutes to render using a MacBook Pro and in premiere took over 90mins!!!