Are cameras and menus too complicated?

[john.margetts]

You can ignore them most of the time, however there are occasions that you might want them to step up photography. Things like exposure delay mode to delay the exposure by about 3 seconds to let the camera settle on a tripod to eliminate all camera shake, might be used once every 1000 shots but to some might make a big difference.

My Canon 80D has a user menu where you can put menu items that you use regularly. I have 'format' on there as that is the only menu item I ever use but I could put several more items on there if I wanted to.

 

[woof woof]

Yes they are.

But you can ignore everything and then even todays latest cameras are very simple devices. Arguably simpler than film cameras as you don't need to worry about loading and unloading the film. That one thing is IMO more complicated than 99% of things that have to be done in a digital cameras menu. And how about developing film?

I honestly just don't get this dislike and fear... Takes all sorts I suppose

 

[Nostromo]

I find my Canon menu's very easy to use, but that's because I've always had Canon. When some one asks about a setting on a nikon or fuji etc, where I have to go into a menu to find it, I find it quite frustrating, but then again it's just because I'm not used to it.
I've set up my custom menu on my 80D for the most used functions I use, format card, battery life, etc. So now I hardly ever need to delve into the main menus.

 

[Withers]

I actually quite like the menus on my cameras (all Canons). I find them easy to navigate and fairly intuitive. I set them once to do what I want them to do pretty much all the time, then largely leave them alone. Surely it's only on rare occasions when you might want to have a play at something a bit more complicated that you might go into a menu and actually significantly alter settings etc. For me, having that level of control over my photography and the images I can create is what it's all about - which is why I choose to use DSLRs most of the time. If I want to take snap shots I use a small compact (a G7X) or my phone. Each to their own - it's that flexibility of approach which allows anyone to be the photographer they want to be ........

 

[droj]

I've circumvented the problem with the a7RII by only using manual lenses (no problems setting the aperture to what I want) with manual focus (no problems setting focus modes/points) and using the camera in P mode with exposure compensation.

Me too (but I use A mode instead of P).

For me, a camera should get in the way as little as possible; modern cameras seem to be designed on the basis that photographers are more concerned with camera operation than photography.

Of course one can ignore many of the options, but there so many adjustments that you can easily forget that you've changed something ...

But it IS damned handy and invaluable to be able to choose things like metering mode and ISO on the fly. I rely on that.

I'd say that many functions and settings, as with much consumer equipment (and apps as well) now, are supplied on the basis of catering for all users, and you can ignore many of them - until you invoke one by accident!

 

[woof woof]

Seriously... People seriously can't set the aperture or focus mode or move the focus point on a Sony A7x? Seriously? It can't be significantly harder than with a Canon xD or anything else.

I'm almost lost for words.

Thinking back to the days of manual cameras everything was done with a knob or a dial and it was often all obvious just looking at the camera. These days you can set the camera up to be every simple... granted you might not be able to see what aperture the lens is set to and what the shutter speed is by looking at the camera but one look at the EVF/OVF or back screen or top screen and these basic settings will almost certainly be obvious.

Maybe cameras are too complicated

I've just remembered a little encounter I had one day... I was out with a mirrorless camera fitted with an old film era lens when a guy came up to chat and see what I was up to. He turned out to be really into aviation photography and he had a DSLR and a long lens but he had no idea about apertures and DoF and all that stuff, he just left the camera in auto and got on with it. I didn't see his results but I bet he and his aviation chums are all happy enough Just goes to show that even with zero interest in the kit and without knowledge of what many would think of as necessary basic stuff like aperture settings you can be perfectly happy taking pictures with these over complicated DSLR's and their unfathomable menus

 

[Sky]

Maybe cameras are too complicated

I think some people are just either not interested enough or are too lazy to learn.

 

[woof woof]

I think some people are just either not interested enough or are too lazy to learn.

Green square mode is made for them

And there's nothing wrong with that. I'm sure there are lots of people like that aviation mad guy I met. My general thought is that these cameras don't have to be complex frightening beasts. If you're not interested in the fancy bells and whistles they can be used without them

 

[ancient_mariner]

This kind of debate has been going on for a while now. I worked with a guy who was also into his photography and we both bought new cameras around the same time.

"OK Martin, how does it do continuous shooting?".
"Errrrr (fiddles around a bit) it's all a bit complicated - I'll have to look at the manual".

That was in 1987 with a Canon EOS 650 - I bought a Minolta 7000 which had all the buttons and controls out & easily visible instead of them being hidden under covers etc. Whether the control systems are electronic or physical, if they're well designed then they tend to be intuitive or at least can be understood by someone of average intelligence willing to invest a few minutes. Where they're badly designed then they can be a challenge even to some quite bright people.

 

[woof woof]

I can sort of understand how some people feel. I couldn't give a flying about phones and when Mrs WW starts on at me about getting a new one I just stop listening.

PS.
But I do know the problem isn't with the phones, the problem is me because I'm just not interested and in fact I dislike them.

 

[StephenM]

Me too (but I use A mode instead of P).

So do I - typo!

I think some people are just either not interested enough or are too lazy to learn.

Guilty as charged, your honour. I'm not interested enough in cameras per se, I just want to use one to make photographs. And the more complicated it is, the more obstacles I perceive it putting in my way.

I'm not too lazy to learn, but I don't want to waste time and energy learning things that I don't regard as important. If I can get the focus right, and the exposure right, that's all I need. I can trust my own judgement to accomplish both - so why spend hours learning how to let a camera do automatically what is already second nature to me?

 

[Nod]

It is all much more complicated than any film camera.

The menu system, maybe but a couple of my film bodies had a fair few menu options, all set using assorted codes shown on the tiny top LCD panel - not as easy as using a "proper" menu on the rear screen!
Then there's actually using the things - not so much the more modern ones with Dx coding and PASM modes but older types, many with separate light meters, assorted loading systems, varying degrees of lens aperture automation, different sequences for setting shutter speeds etc....

 

[nycphotoz]

I think they are for new users

 

[jamesev]

Which we used to call the self timer, and had an easy to find lever on the camera to activate...

theres a subtle difference. self timer mimics the pressing of the shutter after the time delay. exposure delay is the release of the shutter 3 seconds after the mirror is raised as the mirror can induce shake.

 

[swanseamale47]

I think part of the "issue" if you want to call it is cameras are now loaded with other things make them "better".
Personally I don't need GPS in my camera, I know where I am when I took a picture. Same as I don't need my camera to link to my phone to upload pics to antisocial media.
Even remote control from my phone, tried it, yes it works, takes time to set up and connect and frankly I'll never use it, so don't need it. or for that matter want it.
Do I want to change exposure value from one third of a stop to half a stop? No!, so don't need that either. In fact theres a load of menu items I don't need or ever use. But some I do, so I'd rather have them and not need, than need them and not have.

 

[BADGER.BRAD]

I think they are , which is why I much prefer using manual film cameras Focus+aperture+shutter speed easy,Occasionally I'll use the self timer. I hate menus and I hate things that are overly complicated for no reason ,normally as a selling point only such as self dimming mirrors on cars that just make them cost 10 times as much and sensors in windscreens to turn the wipers on if it's raining, if I cannot see it's raining myself I shouldn't be driving. This is most likely just my own personality shining through I just like things to do what I want them to do nothing else, ie a car gets me between a an b ( a Ford Cortina estate would be ideal), my phone lets me make calls should I need to, I use a computer if I want/need to and I don't want any of these to be any of the others which brings me back to computer type menus on a cameras . On the positive side if I really make a mess of it at least with a modern camera I can blame it on the cameras settings ! On the negative/flip side of this I'm never quite sure if the complexity of the menus has caused me to make a mistake of the settings.The other thing I tend to do is swap between camera's a lot and with all the options on digital cameras I forget how to do things. As I have always said for me a a completely manual mechanical camera with a digital sensor instead of the film would be my ideal camera.

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

In fact theres a load of menu items I don't need or ever use. But some I do, so I'd rather have them and not need, than need them and not have.

That's the sensible approach.

 

[realspeed]

The menu is there and it is up to the photographer to decide what they want to use.

 

[woof woof]

As I have always said for me a a completely manual mechanical camera with a digital sensor instead of the film would be my ideal camera.

I can see the appeal but... I don't see much difference between a mechanical digital camera and the digital cameras I have. With my digital cameras I have a wheel for aperture, another for shutter speed and a shutter button. I have the ability to change exposure compensation but I don't have to touch that dial, ditto ISO, moving the focus point, setting the ISO etc... so if I want a very simple camera it's there, here and now. Three things. Aperture, shutter speed and shutter button. Three things. How's that more complicated than a mechanical film camera Fit a 35/50mm f1.8 and be happy

 

[soupdragon]

But you can ignore everything and then even todays latest cameras are very simple devices. Arguably simpler than film cameras as you don't need to worry about loading and unloading the film. That one thing is IMO more complicated than 99% of things that have to be done in a digital cameras menu. And how about developing film?

I honestly just don't get this dislike and fear... Takes all sorts I suppose

"Dislike and Fear" that's a bit strong.

I am neither afraid of or hate filled towards modern camera functionality.

I use my camera exclusively for stills and find the myriad of custom functions superfluous and ignore the vast majority of them.

Perhaps if I were of the iPhone generation I would revel in the ability to geotag where I ate my last burger and wirelessly send it to a disinterested group on instatwat.

 

[Zimmer]

I really like the menu's, especially when I get a new camera, I can spend ages playing with them and tweaking stuff etc.
It's the going out in the cold and rain, taking photos, that I wish could be easier.

 

[john.margetts]

theres a subtle difference. self timer mimics the pressing of the shutter after the time delay. exposure delay is the release of the shutter 3 seconds after the mirror is raised as the mirror can induce shake.

Many film cameras lifted the mirror followed by a slight delay before the shutter is fired. My Zenit 3M does this.

 

[BADGER.BRAD]

I would agree with you Alan/Woof Woof that Digi cameras can be used in quite a simple modes and I generally use my basic digi cameras in point and shoot mode which of course cannot make it more simple from an operating point of view. But would I on a budget wish to spend hundreds/thousands on a plastic camera/lenses that have loads of features that I didn't want in the first place (a bit like buying a Rolls Royce to go shopping in) rather than spending sub 20 quid on a camera with lenses that will do exactly what I both want and need ! Of course I realize that I then have to spend money on film and processing. From my point of view as well I feel that I have achieved much more if I get a great shot whilst using these basic film cameras , If I had spent hundreds/thousands I would feel really disappointed if I didn't get a great shot every time.

 

[jamesev]

Many film cameras lifted the mirror followed by a slight delay before the shutter is fired. My Zenit 3M does this.

Was just saying theres many features of modern camera that need to be configured in menu that many people don't even know exist. Active D-Lighting for example!

 

[tonybassplayer]

“when all else fails, please read the instructions”

I think it’s a man thing I got from my dad when I was younger.

He would insist on driving an extra hour rather than admit he had taken a wrong turn and we needed to return to the last junction

 

[ancient_mariner]

From my point of view as well I feel that I have achieved much more if I get a great shot whilst using these basic film cameras , If I had spent hundreds/thousands I would feel really disappointed if I didn't get a great shot every time.

I am slightly reminded of a comment from Phil V about how his cameras don't take pictures - that's entirely up to him. Now if one tried to take a picture using eye-AF where the camera focussed on a subjects eye and all the images came back OOF THAT would (probably) be the cameras fault, but if it's just a case of a straight forward landscape etc that doesn't require assistance from the camera then the photographer takes full responsibility for a sucky picture.

 

[jamesev]

I am slightly reminded of a comment from Phil V about how his cameras don't take pictures - that's entirely up to him. Now if one tried to take a picture using eye-AF where the camera focussed on a subjects eye and all the images came back OOF THAT would (probably) be the cameras fault, but if it's just a case of a straight forward landscape etc that doesn't require assistance from the camera then the photographer takes full responsibility for a sucky picture.

True however knowing how to use modern technology can help. F1 10 years ago didn't have MGUK now they do. its an additional tool that still requires the driver to know when to best employ it. If they don't know the button to press to use it they can still get a very fast lap in (that we would all swoon over) but with it, could improve by 0.5%.

Its about these small margins.

 

[StephenM]

I think my big problem is that technology can encourage people to obsess about small margins in technical quality, and completely ignore what I would regard as the actual point of photography - the photograph.

And before anyone goes up in arms, yes, that is my view of photography; others whose main interest is in playing with cameras (O.K. perjorative term) have different views. As probably will those who don't share an "art view" of photography, but see it as simply a recording medium.

 

[BADGER.BRAD]

I can't find any menus on my brand new camera, can anyone assist ? I've already tried shouting and swearing at it !

 

[Craig1912]

i’d rather there weren’t so many menus - I’m still getting used to my A7iii but coming from Olympus, I’m used to confusing menus. I intend, once the camera is set up, to use the menus as little as possible as just want to concentrate on the photo. I like the simplicity of film and would have probably gone for a Leica M10 if I could justify the cost!

 

[ancient_mariner]

True however knowing how to use modern technology can help. F1 10 years ago didn't have MGUK now they do. its an additional tool that still requires the driver to know when to best employ it. If they don't know the button to press to use it they can still get a very fast lap in (that we would all swoon over) but with it, could improve by 0.5%.

Its about these small margins.

And that was partly my point, but it was also a case of saying that it doesn't matter whether a camera costs £1 or £10,000, because in the end it's still the person holding it who choses which picture to take, and it's no use blaming the camera if you don't like it.

 

[JJ!]

Does depend a lot on the person and memory too. I found the D750 very easy to navigate. The A9 is just a complete ball ache sometimes. It’s not that it’s difficult but they have so many sub menus sometimes finding something quite simple turns in to a google/YouTube/askonhere situation!

My Mum has just bought her first Nikon DSLR so be interesting to see how she finds it all!

 

[SsSsSsSsSnake]

You can ignore them most of the time, however there are occasions that you might want them to step up photography. Things like exposure delay mode to delay the exposure by about 3 seconds to let the camera settle on a tripod to eliminate all camera shake, might be used once every 1000 shots but to some might make a big difference.

Even the little Nikon d3300 has a button for timer controls

 

[droj]

As I have always said for me a a completely manual mechanical camera with a digital sensor instead of the film would be my ideal camera.

Yes. yes, yes! Will it ever happen? Obviously it could do, but I have my doubts ...

 

[droj]

I can't find any menus on my brand new camera, can anyone assist ? I've already tried shouting and swearing at it !

They're really simple to use. Put it on the floor, stamp on it once with your right foot (a heavy shoe helps), then pick it up - it'll work.

 

[woof woof]

My first digital camera was a Fuji S602 pro zoom. I was happy with the image quality but the focusing was way too slow for anything that moved and switching to manual with the FBW lens didn't work for me either so reluctantly I sold it and got a Canon 300D DSLR which fixed the problems I had with the slow to operate Fuji.

I had never read up on digital, I hadn't spoken to anyone about it and I wasn't on line so I was really just going in blind, almost completely blind. I used to treat and use my DSLR just like a SLR because I knew no better. I used to select aperture or shutter priority or manual as I thought best and I dialled in the settings I wanted, including the ISO and off I went. For example I might have selected f8 or 1/250 and ISO 400 or if I was shooting a gig I'd go ISO 1,600 with the widest aperture I could set. One day it dawned on me that I didn't have to set the ISO at the start of the day I could alter it from shot to shot. WoW! Setting and using the same ISO all day seems idiotic now but maybe you can understand if you remember that I had no idea about digital, I had done no research at all and I just used the camera like an SLR.

I have a few pictures taken with my Fuji that I still look at, just a few, but I have quite a few pictures taken with that 300D and the I'm an idiot basic film settings that I'd dialled in that are still amongst my favorites.

My point is that back then all I cared about gear wise was aperture, shutter speed, ISO and exposure and I managed to ignore / not be aware of anything else and used a DSLR just like a SLR. These days I do fancy things like change the metering mode from evaluative to spot and back, I move the focus point and I sometimes use wide area with face detect and I have auto ISO enabled. I still do old time stuff too like shoot hyperfocal / Merklinger and zone and I use peaking and the magnified view but I don't have to because if I want to I can fit a 35 or 50mm lens to my fancy digital camera, stick it in aperture, shutter or manual and shoot like it's 1971 when I got my first camera.

I can see how and why some get annoyed at the multitude of menu pages and sub options we have these days and I can see how people long for simpler times but at he same time I do think that a lot of this is annoyance and reluctance to embrace the new stuff is overblown as we can use modern cameras in very basic configurations for a very film days like experience. The biggest physical difference IMO being that todays kit largely doesn't have the metal knobs and dials to set the basic stuff and instead has little plastic wheels which do the same thing but without the old metal kit look and feel.

Anyway, that's just my little story and view YMMV

 

[lionofjudah]

that's why you use AUTO settings as I see with most people who buy a DSLR as it will give them a better photo but they have no interest in learning photography.

 

[SydZ]

It took me a while to get used to the menu structure on my Sony A7iii. The rest of my cameras are a mix of Canon DSLRs and have, as you’d expect, huge commonality in their menus.

The Sony is quite different. I eventually moved the most common item I used to a ‘favourites’ menu.

 

[wooster]

Listen, if you reckon these menus are complicated you should see the one down at our local Chinese takeaway!

 

[magicaxeman]

It took me 3 days and several youtube video's to set up my Sony A7RIII via its plethora of menu's, it took me 10mins to set up my Leica M10 including the fast access menu for regularly used features. So yes they have gotten far too complicated.