Armed police

Status
Not open for further replies.
cambsno said:
Two of our friends are cops, was at the pub with one last night, and they themselves do not want guns. Ok, they patrol cambridge which is very safe, but neither would choose to be armed.
Click to expand...

Ive a number pof freinds who are cops who say the same but the reasoning is different - the principal reason they don't want to be armed is they fear the consequences if they actually shoot someone - that is being judged by a bunch of morons who've never been closer to a fure arm than their TV set, with the benefit of hindsight, and hung out todry by senior officers more concerned with cobering their own arse than protecting the men under their comand
 
Ive a number pof freinds who are cops who say the same but the reasoning is different - the principal reason they don't want to be armed is they fear the consequences if they actually shoot someone - that is being judged by a bunch of morons who've never been closer to a fure arm than their TV set, with the benefit of hindsight, and hung out today by senior officers more concerned with cobering their own arse than protecting the men under their comand
Click to expand...

Which is exactly the reason I refused to do a firearms course.

While of course any use of Police firearms must be investigated, it's the way thats done and the abuse of investigative powers that is at issue. Take the Harry Measures shooting as an example, 6 years that went on for. Why? Because they wanted someone to hang for it. There was no evidence supporting the family view, but their campaign was given credence by the press selectively reporting. Time and time again, and on this forum we see the line trotted out that he was shot while holding a chair leg, yet it was not that simplistic, and that chair leg was actually a plastic carrier bag, and was pointed at police officers. This after what could only be described as a perfect description of the contents of that bag as a shotgun.

Any slight variation in recollection is instantly jumped on as someone's lying, when actually, no 2 recollections of an event are ever the same. The IPCC want and have now got more powers, powers that if applied to a suspect who was a member of the public would cause an an outcry and that drive a coach and horses through the rights of suspects. All in their relentless attempts to hand a police officer. Then of course we have the internet, full of people who know exactly what should have happened, in spite of never being there, and having only the barest of facts, and in many cases not even that.
 
The vast majority of officers would fail firearms selection, and I include myself in that. The bar is set high and for good reason. So arming more of us would require a drop in standards, which I don't think anyone could agree with. We are also seriously strapped for funds and resources. Add that to the fact that the majority of officers don't want to be armed and you can see that its not going to happen.
I would however like to see more offficers armed with taser. Its incredibly effective even without being deployed. However again there is no money left in the pot.
 
I would however like to see more offficers armed with taser. Its incredibly effective even without being deployed. However again there is no money left in the pot.
Click to expand...

I#d agree, its the least worse compromise.

It could be afforded, simply replace anone above Ch Insp with a machine that says "Community", "Engagement" and "partners" at random intervals. No one would notice the difference.
 
Whippet said:
The vast majority of officers would fail firearms selection, and I include myself in that. The bar is set high and for good reason. So arming more of us would require a drop in standards, which I don't think anyone could agree with. We are also seriously strapped for funds and resources. Add that to the fact that the majority of officers don't want to be armed and you can see that its not going to happen.
I would however like to see more offficers armed with taser. Its incredibly effective even without being deployed. However again there is no money left in the pot.
Click to expand...

Good post. I also agree with Bernie, if I was a cop and armed I would be worried about what happened if I did shoot someone. Even with the best training, people do and will make mistakes, or make a misjudgment and then be made a scapegoat. This would especially be the case if standards slipped.
 
ST4 said:
Stereo types...dangerous thing.
Click to expand...
WPRuqojokj_zpsc9b460a4.jpg
 
BRASH said:
Are the Police all martial arts experts with the skill and confidence to step in
Click to expand...

I'm not suggesting they are (though there's a decent argument they should be). Just that the experts who designed their equipment may know somewhat more than the average man on a forum. As I say, my gut feel is that to protect yourself against anything other than a gun you want to be closer not further away (think of boxers clinching) and a lead lined stick is an excellent close combat weapon which needs very little training. Unlike guns which generally aren't good for arm's length combat and require a huge commitment to training and safety if you roll them out to everyone.

If you're hitting an attacker with a stick, it's pretty hard to injure an innocent bystander.
 
Actually Jonathan, I wanted to be out of harms way. most weapons we faced were knives, I didn't want to be within stab range so all the martial arts self defence techniques in the world aren't helpful. The introduction of stab vests helped, but that didn't protect necks, wrists and groins. What did make a huge difference is the asp type baton. It kept chummy of out stab range, and of course it hurt I had to hit him.
On the other hand, the asp could, and has killed. So we had a days training, every 6 months on it's use.
But people still die from the use of these batons, and the officers concerned still face a protracted investigation which abuses the rules of evidence.
now I don't dispute the need for an investigation, it's the way those are conducted, Police Officers should have the same legal protection any other suspect has, but they don't.
 
big soft moose said:
Ive a number pof freinds who are cops who say the same but the reasoning is different - the principal reason they don't want to be armed is they fear the consequences if they actually shoot someone - that is being judged by a bunch of morons who've never been closer to a fure arm than their TV set, with the benefit of hindsight, and hung out todry by senior officers more concerned with cobering their own arse than protecting the men under their comand
Click to expand...
This is a VERY common thought amongst the police ranks - you get hung drawn and quartered for defending yourself against an attacking suspect using your bare hands (which, really is all we have) let along shooting someone with a firearm.

And attacks and assaults on police are going up, massively. They've almost doubled in the last year alone.
 
cambsno said:
Good post. I also agree with Bernie, if I was a cop and armed I would be worried about what happened if I did shoot someone.
Click to expand...

Also, in a gun to gun confrontation, there is a 50% chance that the person who ends up dead is you.


Steve.
 
as opposed to gun to truncheon where its more like 90% that you'll come off worse :confused:
 
Whippet said:
The vast majority of officers would fail firearms selection, and I include myself in that. The bar is set high and for good reason. So arming more of us would require a drop in standards, .
Click to expand...

I'm not entirely sure i agree - the army manage to train a bunch of 18 year old f***wits (which accurately describes most intake courses) to use automatic weapons without too much problem - so it shouldnt be beyond the wit of man to train intelligent police officers to use a semi auto handgun responsibly and acurately without it costing the earth
 
JonathanRyan said:
I'm not suggesting they are (though there's a decent argument they should be). Just that the experts who designed their equipment may know somewhat more than the average man on a forum. As I say, my gut feel is that to protect yourself against anything other than a gun you want to be closer not further away (think of boxers clinching) and a lead lined stick is an excellent close combat weapon which needs very little training. Unlike guns which generally aren't good for arm's length combat and require a huge commitment to training and safety if you roll them out to everyone.

If you're hitting an attacker with a stick, it's pretty hard to injure an innocent bystander.
Click to expand...

Up close against say a knife I'd rather have ASP or similar but the main purpose of having a gun though is to stop you having to fight at close quarters by giving you the ability to deal with them before they get that close.
 
The Tueller drill shows how dangerous a bladed weapon can be when up against a gun. I wouldn't support arming the police routinely in this country. It's not needed, too expensive and even the police officers don't want it.
 
big soft moose said:
I'm not entirely sure i agree - the army manage to train a bunch of 18 year old f***wits (which accurately describes most intake courses) to use automatic weapons without too much problem - so it shouldnt be beyond the wit of man to train intelligent police officers to use a semi auto handgun responsibly and acurately without it costing the earth
Click to expand...

Seriously there is absolutely no money left... A roll out would cost millions per force, and we couldn't cope with the abstractions for the training.

I've supervised well over 100 PCs to date. Amongst those there are a handful I'd trust with a gun. You should see how inaccurate and panicked some of them are with CS when things go pear shaped.
 
Last edited:
Whippet said:
Seriously there is absolutely no money left... A role out would cost millions per force, and we couldn't cope with the abstractions for the training.
Click to expand...

No argument there but Govt should fund the police properly. I don't support arming the police against the wishes of officers , but I do think a greater proportion of armed officers is inevitable eventually giving the rising attacks on officers and rising proportion of armed criminals.

Also a role out shouldnt cost millions per force - that it will is largely down to the pointless bureacracy , not the actual cost of equiping and training officers

Whippet said:
I've supervised well over 100 PCs to date. Amongst those there are a handful I'd trust with a gun. You should see how inaccurate and panicked some of them are with CS when things go pear shaped.
Click to expand...

That's pretty worrying and may say something about the calibre (no pun intended) of recruits these days (which may also be caused by the low pay, insufficient funding, and bureacratic faffing about).
 
From one of Moose' s links:

Nationally – more officers are being assaulted on the streets every day. There were 20,249 assaults on police officers between April 2013 and March – an increase of 579 assaults than in the previous financial year.

Not exactly a doubling.
 
some of these figures are misleading as an assault in 2014 might have been regarded as a tickle a few years ago ;)
 
abbandon said:
Can you provide evidense for this claim ?
Click to expand...
It's not a "claim".

Figures are being compiled as we speak, but not by me (police federation) but as it's still 2014 for a few more weeks those figures won't be published for a while.

But I'm not someone who needs to post a Google link, I've only got to look at the daily state when I come into work to see "officer assaulted" numerous times when it lists the previous day's events.

I can put my hand up and say I've been assaulted in various ways far more frequently now than I did 10 years ago, and it's now seen as part of the job. Not for much longer.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: ST4
viv1969 said:
From one of Moose' s links:

Nationally – more officers are being assaulted on the streets every day. There were 20,249 assaults on police officers between April 2013 and March – an increase of 579 assaults than in the previous financial year.

Not exactly a doubling.
Click to expand...
See my post above.

But from John Apter, chairman of Hampshires police Fed;

"the past five years there have been almost 5,000 assaults on officers across Hampshire and the Isle of Wight – 1,200 of which took place since April last year."

5000 in the last 5 years but *1200* since April last year.

There's your increase, but the exact figure for the pedantics as I say, are still being compiled.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: ST4
odd jim said:
See my post above.

But from John Apter, chairman of Hampshires police Fed;

"the past five years there have been almost 5,000 assaults on officers across Hampshire and the Isle of Wight – 1,200 of which took place since April last year."

5000 in the last 5 years but *1200* since April last year.

There's your increase, but the exact figure for the pedantics as I say, are still being compiled.
Click to expand...

Hardly a national statistic.
 
viv1969 said:
Hardly a national statistic.
Click to expand...
Really?? Jesus.

I'll stop speaking from experience as well then.

I'll leave this to you.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: ST4
Well forgive me...but Hampshire and IoW do not constitute a balanced national overview.
 
But they are representative of the profession as a whole, being a large Home Counties force.

But don't worry, people like me will carry on putting our necks on the line so people like you can sleep safely at night :)
 
  • Like
Reactions: ST4
odd jim said:
But they are representative of the profession as a whole, being a large Home Counties force.

But don't worry, people like me will carry on putting our necks on the line so people like you can sleep safely at night :)
Click to expand...

Oh please. Spare me.
Half my family have spent their careers in the Greater Manchester, Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire police forces.
 
viv1969 said:
Oh please. Spare me.
Half my family have spent their careers in the Greater Manchester, Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire police forces.
Click to expand...
That's great. But so what?

Gonna leave this one here now I think before I get banned!
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: ST4
viv1969 said:
Well forgive me...but Hampshire and IoW do not constitute a balanced national overview.
Click to expand...

No, but it's a significant enough size of the UK in terms of population and area to show a worrying trend. It's a big Home Counties force, we're not talking the Isle of Man here.

I honestly think you should take more care over what you write out.
 
Last edited:
Nope, sorry....I tried but I'm still laughing at this......

ST4 said:
I honestly think you should take more care over what you write out.
Click to expand...

:ROFLMAO:
 
Steve Smith said:
Also, in a gun to gun confrontation, there is a 50% chance that the person who ends up dead is you.


Steve.
Click to expand...
Massive and unjustified assumption

1. Police will have modern gun in good condition, criminal very likely not to have that = big advantage police
2. Police will have had at least some training, criminal has probably never fired a gun before = big advantage police
3. Police likely to be extremely unwilling to fire, partly because of the problems this will bring them, partly because they are decent human beings who don't want to hurt other people = big advantage criminal
4. It depends on the weapon - police officer with handgun is no match for criminal with shotgun, criminal with handgun is no match for police officer with automatic weapon etc.
 
big soft moose said:
http://www.wypf.polfed.org/2014/07/03/dramatic-rise-in-assaults-on-west-yorkshire-officers/

http://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surrey-news/surrey-police-officers-face-more-7783847

(it's "evidence" by the way)
Click to expand...


Well fair enough then it is evidence I can not spell but as Ruth pointed out it is not evidence that suports a claim that assults on UK Police officiers have doubled.

odd jim said:
It's not a "claim".

Figures are being compiled as we speak, but not by me (police federation) but as it's still 2014 for a few more weeks those figures won't be published for a while.

But I'm not someone who needs to post a Google link, I've only got to look at the daily state when I come into work to see "officer assaulted" numerous times when it lists the previous day's events.

I can put my hand up and say I've been assaulted in various ways far more frequently now than I did 10 years ago, and it's now seen as part of the job. Not for much longer.
Click to expand...

If someone makes a claim that seems unlikely I would expect them to present evedence to suport that claim when asked.

Unfortunatly personal experience and anecdotal evidence are not going to put figures to a claim.

odd jim said:
See my post above.

But from John Apter, chairman of Hampshires police Fed;

"the past five years there have been almost 5,000 assaults on officers across Hampshire and the Isle of Wight – 1,200 of which took place since April last year."

5000 in the last 5 years but *1200* since April last year.

There's your increase, but the exact figure for the pedantics as I say, are still being compiled.
Click to expand...

So this is your source for the claim that assults have nearly doubled in the last year?

On the assumptionn that it is lets see what we can find out about it.

The earliest link I can find with your quotes in it is from the West Yorkshire Police Federation

It seems that the Hampshire Police Federation has threatened to take its force to court because it believes that amungst other things not maintaining minium staffing levels is putting officiers at uneccessary risk, which would clearly be unacceptable.

Now that article is posted 24th October 2014 and reffers to an annual open meeting held this month ie somewhen in October 2014

From that article

In the past five years there have been almost 5,000 assaults on officers across Hampshire and the Isle of White – 1,200 of which took place since April last year.
Click to expand...

So if there have been almost 5000 assults on officiers across Hampshire and the Isle of White in the past five years then over that five year peroid the mean level of assults has been 1000 a year.

Now if we read that unattributed statement carefully we see that 1200 of those assults took place since April last year as we know that the the meeting was held in October and they are reffering to April last year ie April 2013 then the since is a peroid of at least 16 months therefore giving an average over those sixteen months of 900 which represents a fall over the five year mean.

So again where is the evidence for a near doubling in Police Officer assults in the uk ?
 
abbandon said:
Well fair enough then it is evidence I can not spell but as Ruth pointed out it is not evidence that suports a claim that assults on UK Police officiers have doubled.



If someone makes a claim that seems unlikely I would expect them to present evedence to suport that claim when asked.

Unfortunatly personal experience and anecdotal evidence are not going to put figures to a claim.



So this is your source for the claim that assults have nearly doubled in the last year?

On the assumptionn that it is lets see what we can find out about it.

The earliest link I can find with your quotes in it is from the West Yorkshire Police Federation

It seems that the Hampshire Police Federation has threatened to take its force to court because it believes that amungst other things not maintaining minium staffing levels is putting officiers at uneccessary risk, which would clearly be unacceptable.

Now that article is posted 24th October 2014 and reffers to an annual open meeting held this month ie somewhen in October 2014

From that article



So if there have been almost 5000 assults on officiers across Hampshire and the Isle of White in the past five years then over that five year peroid the mean level of assults has been 1000 a year.

Now if we read that unattributed statement carefully we see that 1200 of those assults took place since April last year as we know that the the meeting was held in October and they are reffering to April last year ie April 2013 then the since is a peroid of at least 16 months therefore giving an average over those sixteen months of 900 which represents a fall over the five year mean.

So again where is the evidence for a near doubling in Police Officer assults in the uk ?
Click to expand...
Surely, whether or not these statistics are actually accurate isn't really the point.

There seems to be no doubt that there has been some increase, and any increase is unacceptable. Those whose job it is (police, ambulance crews, firefighters) to protect us should not be assaulted. When criminals who assault these people are brought before the Courts, the Courts should send them a very clear message - and yet these criminals often just get a slap on the wrist instead.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top