Asked to remove some images from my website..

I think it all comes down to jealousy on their part. They have seen your work and know it is better than theirs and are worried that you will steal their thunder.
 
Her reply was that it doesnt look good that if she refers people to me that I have some of the same couples as she does.
 
rgrebby said:
Her reply was that it doesnt look good that if she refers people to me that I have some of the same couples as she does.
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Really? How many referrals have you had from her? How many referrals is she saying she will give you? Why would she? (sorry, I work in advice/sales and the referrals I give are the ones I don't want).
 
I think most of you are missing the point. It does not matter if he can/cannot post the images, or whether it is right or wrong, he does not want to fall out with the person involved for his reasons. He has done the right thing in asking for a reason for the request. When and if an answer is received, then a decision either way can be made.
 
rgrebby said:
I personally think some of the images are the more stronger ones in my portfolio for weddings. If I remove them I will potentially loose business. I get the impression that they are concerned I am taking some of their business although my pictures are of a different style completly.
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ha ha ha ha - jealous on your work.

personally I would tell them to **** right off and deal with it :LOL:
 
wontolla said:
I think most of you are missing the point. It does not matter if he can/cannot post the images, or whether it is right or wrong, he does not want to fall out with the person involved for his reasons. He has done the right thing in asking for a reason for the request. When and if an answer is received, then a decision either way can be made.
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But, it could also work the other way. She shouldn't be asking him in the first place if nothing was put in writing.
 
rgrebby said:
Her reply was that it doesnt look good that if she refers people to me that I have some of the same couples as she does.
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Personally if I were a client I would be really happy to see that the person I was being refered to had worked with the referee. Shows that they trust each other and respect each others skills etc.
 
Koolpc said:
But, it could also work the other way. She shouldn't be asking him in the first place if nothing was put in writing.
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why - if he was working for her then she can (not without good reason) assume that copyright belongs to her. I agree the best way is to find out the reasons for the request, but this should of been sorted upfront by them both
 
~Sam~ said:
Really? How many referrals have you had from her? How many referrals is she saying she will give you? Why would she? (sorry, I work in advice/sales and the referrals I give are the ones I don't want).
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If I already have a wedding already on a particular day I will give them my friends information and vise versa.
 
Koolpc said:
Nothing in writing, nothing they can do. Simples
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Not strictly true, in employment law a contract can be verbal as well as written, so if there was a verbal agreement then that would be binding.

Despite being asked several times, the OP has not said what, if any, arrangement was made between the main photographer's and himself. If the OP provided images as part of any agreement, could that be considered a 'contract of employment'
If 'employment' is implied then the employer would own copyright and not the employee unless otherwise stated.

To the OP, if there was no agreement prior to the shoot then you own copyright and the only consideration for you is whether, or how much you want to upset your friends weighed against what you would lose should you remove the images, simples.
 
From what I understand, you can go and take pictures as a second photographer no problem. However, the main photographer has essentially sub-contracted the position to you. Therefore, this makes them the actual owner of the images. You are there working for them effectively.

The fact they don't pay you, or even use your pictures is irrelevant. You have no right in using the pictures you have taken for commercial gain/advertising unless you have signed model releases / permission or agreement to do so. This is where it slights to get a little grey...the main photographer has, more than likely, got a signed release model release form for XXXX Photography. You were there acting on behalf of said business therefore effectively you do have rights to use them.

BUT, if you just attended with the photographer as a friend, not represented etc then yes, you own the copyright to the picture but you have no rights to use them for your gain.

Weddings are always dodgy. You need to have effective permission from the people who's face you are using to advertise (through your own release) or the permission of the 'tog you were there representing.

Hope this makes some sense! It's certainly what we've been advised anyway :)
 
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PaulF said:
Not strictly true, in employment law a contract can be verbal as well as written, so if there was a verbal agreement then that would be binding.
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Of course, one would need proof that there was a verbal agreement!
 
rgrebby said:
A year or so ago I went along with a friend to some of the weddings they were photographing to get myself some experience. This person is now asking me to remove the all photos taken on the weddings when I came with her from my website and everywhere else I have used them.

Sure I can understand removing photos that look similar to hers and I already did this but to remove them would be to remove some of my favorite wedding images.
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I’m going to look at this from a different angle, so forgive me if I’m wrong here but you say you went along to gain experience. Therefore was the other wedding tog doing the directing, sorting out who should be in the pictures and maybe setting the scene while they shot the required photos? If you were just shooting over her shoulder while she used her skill to get the best angles, settings etc I can understand why she has asked you to remove what may simply be a copy of her work.
Do you have to …probably not - but I guess in the end its how much you value friendship.

HTH
Colin
 
boyfalldown said:
Jing why bother, they're not legally binding in the UK and it strikes me as a lot of hastle. I have a clause in my contract saying I may chose to use photos in future for my purposes, but I'm not spending the whole day getting every guest to sign meaningless releases
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I was trampling on to another similar post, so getting a bit mixed-up on model release issue.

boyfalldown I don't ask everyone to sign the release. I only do model release at pre-wedding consultation, then pass a few forms to the client, asking them to sort it out for me on some key personalities.

I do so because I do have plan to use some pix for portfolio, some other for commercial reuse.
In one case I had (badly) refused to give client a photo because I gave her an almost free deal but use that photo for resell. Page 45 on my portfolio book.
 
Just my two pennies worth, but I feel it would be a shame to fall out with your friend over this, who in the first place was doing you a favour in giving you the opportunity in gaining some experience. However, as you say to remove these photos would remove a large section of your portfolio. So you need to compromise. I would imagine that anyone looking at your portfolio would assume that the pictures were your best examples of your work where you were the comissioned photographer...strictly speaking here you were not in this case. So may be could you agree to remove the photos once you have a suitable selection. You may need to agree a time scale, say 3 months...depends how busy you are. Then hopefully your friend will be satisfied and your portfolio remains complete-just updated....
 
Whatever, think of professional ettiquette. I've 2nd shot for a couple or so togs and they haven't minded. A lady on the SWPP forum has offered peeps to 2nd shoot for her and not allowing any pics to be put in their portfolio etc. But weather they say you can or not or change their minds at a later date, I always assume the copyright of my images is theirs. It was their gig and weather they hired you as paid staff or for you to gain experience and paid you nothing, respect their wishes, even without a reason.
 
SouthernSnapper said:
Just my two pennies worth, but I feel it would be a shame to fall out with your friend over this, who in the first place was doing you a favour in giving you the opportunity in gaining some experience. However, as you say to remove these photos would remove a large section of your portfolio. So you need to compromise. I would imagine that anyone looking at your portfolio would assume that the pictures were your best examples of your work where you were the comissioned photographer...strictly speaking here you were not in this case. So may be could you agree to remove the photos once you have a suitable selection. You may need to agree a time scale, say 3 months...depends how busy you are. Then hopefully your friend will be satisfied and your portfolio remains complete-just updated....
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Your portfolio can also be when you're seconding. Your portfolio is just your best work, most people don't care - they just want to see good work.
 
I was under the impression model release were just an added precaution and not actually needed in the UK.

As for the OP, all you need to do is explain to your friend that you will take them down when you have equally as good photos to replace them with as you don't want to wipe out a large part of your portfolio.

As you do more, your photos and style will progress, you will replace the images at some point for more modern ones so you wouldn't be lying with the above statement, and it should also let your friend know you are willing to comply :)
 
scottcampbell said:
Your portfolio can also be when you're seconding. Your portfolio is just your best work, most people don't care - they just want to see good work.
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You are an intelligent young man and I have much respect for you, but ettiquette between a couple of toggers should count IMHO.
 
Koolpc said:
Of course, one would need proof that there was a verbal agreement!
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As far as I understand it, a contract (written or verbal) is only valid if both
parties gain benefit.

If someone doesnt benefit in any way then there can be no contract.
 
snoop69 said:
As far as I understand it, a contract (written or verbal) is only valid if both
parties gain benefit.

If someone doesnt benefit in any way then there can be no contract.
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True, if there was a contract in this case the benefit to the OP was the experience gained as originally stated.
 
scottcampbell said:
Thank you :) I think this poses a tough question - what is etiquette and what isn't?
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I have a book on etiquette dated 1896 which my Nan had.

One part of it states "when calling on a young lady, be sure to leave your calling card in the silver salver in the hallway so that the domestic staff can present..." etc etc

Also, "when hosting a dinner party, be sure to eat at the speed of the slowest guest".

Strangely enough, I didn't read anything in it about photography.
 
Back to the original problem, so the OP second shot at a wedding and is using shots for his portfolio.

Both him and his friend shoot weddings on their own now and occasionally recommend each other when they are busy.

The similar shots shouldn't be a problem in that case as surely it's enough to say you sometimes (sounds better than used to) work together and that may be seen as a plus point for bigger weddings that you can double up. However if the other photographer is insisting then perhaps suggest a timescale for the removal of the shots when you can replace them with new ones from your newer weddings. If they are shots you like you should be able to reproduce something similar or better.
 
To be honest, this is something that should have been sorted out at the time. If I was doing some back up work for someone, the first thing I'd get clear is whether I'd be able to use my own shots for my portfolio.

If you've given her the shots from the day and you're using the same ones, I can understand that there would be identical shots in both portfolios which could then confuse clients, so it's a tough one, but to be fair, it shouldn't have even got to this stage as that would have been obvious from the start.

If there was no agreement for you to use the shot, I'd side with the main tog, if there was, I'd side with you and would personally refuse to take them down, as she should have had the common sense to realise you're going to be using some of the same shots. However, if you didn't hand over any of the shots for her to use, I don't see the issue.
 
Never under-estimate the value of having a friendly local photographer who may be able to get you out of trouble in the event of illness/accident, particularly if you are a one man band like most of us.

If this photographer is passing referrals your way too, I would do whatever I could to maintain a good relationship with them.

Before the internet muddied the waters and I could accurately monitor where most leads originated from, my biggest source for several consecutive years was another photographer that I swapped leads with.

There should have been a clear agreement on image usage and it is hard to imagine the other photographer wasn't aware that you intended to use them in your portfolio, but if you are now regularly photographing weddings alone then surely you can easily replace them with your exclusive work and retain a good working relationship with the other tog.

If your own weddings are not producing images of the same standard, then perhaps the other photographer has a point.
 
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Personally I wouldn't have used them in the first place. Wasn't your gig. I went along with a mate to a wedding years ago and although nothing was ever said about using the images I took being used in a portfolio, I didn't feel it was the right thing to do.

Sounds like maintaining a relationship with this person is important, so I would politely say that you will remove in a few days time after your next wedding so that you can fill in the gaps left by removing them, and say that you can understand their concerns, no worries. TBH it doesn't look good on you or them if you've got the same B&G in your portfolio!

Copyright etc doesn't come into it IMO; it's a matter of principle. Yes it should have been discussed in the first place, but hey, it wasn't!

Replace the pics and move on.
 
But he has rights Dave, rights god damn it!!!

I think Dave is right Richard. Ask if you can keep them for a little while longer until you have enough work to replace them. Hopefully they'll understand and agree that it's reasonable.
 
Whatever, this is why some pro photographers are reluctant to offer second shooter opportunities to others. :(
 
Personally I think you should remove them asap. Surely the relationship with a photographer you used to work with is more important than the images? Even if it is 1/3 of your portfilio, you should be able to replace these pretty quickly.
 
I would leave them there. I think the other tog is just jealous of the standard of the pics against hers.
 
Koolpc said:
I would leave them there. I think the other tog is just jealous of the standard of the pics against hers.
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:bang: I love your ability to read and come to a reasoned conclusion. Theres heaps of reasons why she won't want them but without any knowledge of the situation they must be jealous :thinking:
 
Without the opportunity the other photographer gave you, you would never have taken those pictures. And maybe they are as good as you say they are because she set them up?
 
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