Backlight/Exposure/Exp Compensation - PICS ADDED

jeniveeev

jeniveeev

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Hi - I have a few questions re high sun outdoors and exposing correctly for the perfect picture :)!! (in an ideal world).

I was wondering what everyone else does when they have a strong backlight outdoors and how they expose for the subject to be correct together with having a decent background? I find that im blowing out the background and sometimes part of the subject, say their hair- it almost looks burned! Im looking to just light the hair and keep everything natural without washing everything out with major bright light!

Also, I have tried using exposure compensation and I dont see a difference at all, the histogram doesnt change and neither does the image! Am i doing something wrong? Or should i be bracketing up and down S/S to achieve proper exposure? :thinking:

Hope you can help
Many thanks


EDIT - Pics added from todays shoot in high sun/strong backlight.

4397640273_d3b93c27a7.jpg


4397644125_07054045c8.jpg
 
A lot of the time when you are in above conditions I find it best to expose for the background, then use a speedlite (flash) to light the foreground/subject. By doing this;

1. When you expose for the background it will underexpose the subject
2. Adding a flash to light the subject means the whole image will be correctly exposed
 
J4MIE_P said:
A lot of the time when you are in above conditions I find it best to expose for the background, then use a speedlite (flash) to light the foreground/subject. By doing this;

1. When you expose for the background it will underexpose the subject
2. Adding a flash to light the subject means the whole image will be correctly exposed
Click to expand...

yes, ive tried the speedlight but it looked rubbish because i had blown out the background! BUT, i hadnt exposed for the background.

For example, if i had the sun/sea/beach background and exposed for the sea then i would have a perfect exposure of the waves and use my speedlight as a fill flash on the subject.?
 
Yes if you are taking a photo of a person with the sea (NO SKY INC.) then expose for the sea and use a speedlite to expose the person

If you are taking a photo of a person at a beach or anywhere outdoors where the sky is included, then expose for the sky and then use a speedlite for the person.

Hope that helps
Jamie
 
Im not too sure as I dont use a reflector, but I'm sure if you used one of your flashes at 45 degrees from the camera and a reflector on the other 45 degree then it should be sufficient for a fill
 
I need to do exactly the same so I'm just talking from what i've read on here opposed to what works for me :) Post up some pics with your results though :)

Would like to think I've helped somebody for once lol
 
Try using manual exposure and spot meter off the brightest important part of the background at +3. Then add flash, using FEC to achieve the balance you need. I don't know how Nikon's flash system works, but this was shot with an on camera Canon 580EX at +1/3 FEC. No edits other than a little highlight recovery to pull back the sky.

20100222_223833.JPG


Obviously further adjustments might be beneficial, but as a raw capture it's not a bad starting point.
 
jeniveeev said:
cheers Jamie - il practice some more with the speedlight then ;-)).
Click to expand...

Hi Jen :)

Metering for the sky and using the flash to light the subject is the answer. If you shoot Manual, you can also dial down the exposure in the sky a little with the use of the shutter speed - the aperture you select will control the light on your subject.

Using a reflector will be fine and the flash would take that into account when exposing your subject.

Let me knolw how you get on :)
 
I did a job like this the other day - I used manual and underexposed the background a little then used a speedlight with a shoot through brolly to light the face. The little sunlight provided a nice free backlight. :) In some of them the hair is a little burned out but what the heck - not worth getting upset about. You can see some of them if you click the 'my alamy' link.
 
tdodd said:
Try using manual exposure and spot meter off the brightest important part of the background at +3. Then add flash, using FEC to achieve the balance you need. I don't know how Nikon's flash system works, but this was shot with an on camera Canon 580EX at +1/3 FEC. No edits other than a little highlight recovery to pull back the sky.

20100222_223833.JPG


Obviously further adjustments might be beneficial, but as a raw capture it's not a bad starting point.
Click to expand...

Thanks Tdodd - il give this a try.

EOS_JD said:
Hi Jen :)

Metering for the sky and using the flash to light the subject is the answer. If you shoot Manual, you can also dial down the exposure in the sky a little with the use of the shutter speed - the aperture you select will control the light on your subject.

Using a reflector will be fine and the flash would take that into account when exposing your subject.

Let me knolw how you get on :)
Click to expand...

thanks EOS - now ive been using my flash on ttlbl, which give me a max sync speed of 250, is it ok to use a slower s/s or should i be sticking with 250? Or perhaps i should be using Manual - i would think ttbl is easier?:thinking:
Thanks again for your comments
Jen :)

awp said:
I did a job like this the other day - I used manual and underexposed the background a little then used a speedlight with a shoot through brolly to light the face. The little sunlight provided a nice free backlight. :) In some of them the hair is a little burned out but what the heck - not worth getting upset about. You can see some of them if you click the 'my alamy' link.
Click to expand...



I like those images awp, the hair light is subtle and natural which is what im aiming for. did you have your speedlight to Manual?
 
jeniveeev said:
thanks EOS - now ive been using my flash on ttlbl, which give me a max sync speed of 250, is it ok to use a slower s/s or should i be sticking with 250? Or perhaps i should be using Manual - i would think ttbl is easier?:thinking:
Click to expand...

If you slow down the shutter you will get an even brighter background. Ideally you want a faster shutter speed, to reduce the background exposure, for which you will need to use flash with high speed sync.

As a Nikon user, I don't know if you can get a true 100 ISO from your camera. Assuming your lowest ISO is 200 then on a bright day you are going to hit some problems. Based on a "Sunny 16" exposure of f/16, 100 ISO, 1/100, if you were to use 200 ISO you would need to shoot at f/16 and 1/200 or you could speed up the shutter to 1/250 but you will still need an aperture of f/14, which is usually pretty dreadful for many types of photography, especially people.

The option is to open up the aperture, for a nicer DOF, but you'd need to raise the shutter speed considerably, which means you'd need a flash with high speed sync. Another option would be to use an ND filter to tame the bright ambient light. That would allow you to shoot at 1/250 and open up the aperture more. Of course, the ND filter would reduce your flash power too, but the flash is able to deliver more power when used at the sync speed than when used in high speed sync mode, so you would still come out ahead.

It might be worth having a look at some flash tutorials, so you can understand how to balance flash vs ambient. Try this rather good series of YouTube videos....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xnn5nzPvoIM&feature=PlayList&p=BC5A73FEA8B7D7D2&index=12
 
jeniveeev said:
thanks EOS - now ive been using my flash on ttlbl, which give me a max sync speed of 250, is it ok to use a slower s/s or should i be sticking with 250? Or perhaps i should be using Manual - i would think ttbl is easier?:thinking:
Thanks again for your comments
Jen :)
Click to expand...

Jen
Set the camera to manual and the flash to ettl (ittl). setting the camera to manual does not mean your flash won't work in ettl.

1/250th will be the max shutter speed your camera can go however if you use a flash with high speed sync, you can get faster shutter speeds (although it costs you power) - If you are fairly close, you should be fine.

First thing to do is look at the scene and take a meter reading. You want the sky to be exposed correctly so best to take a reading from the sky.

Set the camera to your chosen aperture (lets say f8) and then point the camera at the sky. If you get a SS reading of under 1/250th great. If it's over 1/250th try using high speed synch so you can use faster shutter speeds. You can also make the aperture smaller (higher fnumber) but this means using more flash power.

Lets say the correct exposure for the sky is f8, ISO100, 1/125th

If you dial in 1/250th shutter speed, you will epose the background 1 stop under but by using flash your subject will be exposed correctly.

i see the post above says basically this and as I use Canon ISO100 is an option for me 0- this always seems odd of many Nikon cameras only having ISO200! ND filters as said can be your friend - reducung the amount of light coming in
 
jeniveeev said:
I like those images awp, the hair light is subtle and natural which is what im aiming for. did you have your speedlight to Manual?
Click to expand...

hi - glad you like them - the actress did too! :)

I had the camera on manual shooting at f/2.8 - f/4 to get the backgrounds soft - shutter speed was 1/1250 and upwards. SB-900 was on remote - controlled from an SU-800 on the camera - using Nikon CLS which is magic. Later shots indoors were taken with 2 x SB-900 one with a shoot through brolly and the other as a hair light. Mostly the sunlight was quite gentle - but as you can see it was occassionally harsher and I used the speedlight without the brolly to compete!

Just for info - I was using high speed sync - doesn't matter that that loses power as long as you keep the flash close - two feet away in my case - just off camera axis - I was using s 80-200mm lens for the outdoor shots. If the sun isn't too strong then you'll get plenty flash power that close. You really need the widest aperture you can get to fuzz the background - so that will mean a high shutter - and the lowest ISO you can get!
 
Hi guys - the highest speed i can get from my sb600 is 250, does that mean i dont have high speed sync?. I only use my camera in manual mode anyway so thats fine, the ISO is min 200, i cant go as low as 100. How will I be able to have a wider aperture without the high S/S, as i do like my bokeh/DOF?? Just to say my flashgun is attached to the hotshoe on my camera if that helps?
 
Acording to the info here - http://imaging.nikon.com/products/imaging/lineup/speedlights/sb-600/index.htm - your flash does support high speed sync, which will allow shutter speeds faster than 1/250, and thus allow you to open up the aperture.

Auto FP High-Speed Sync; use with fast shutter speeds achieves effective blurring of out-of-focus background elements
Click to expand...

You will probably have to enable it, either on the flash itself or possibly from within camera menus. Since I don't know the Nikon system I don't know the precise procedure.
 
High speed sync is enabled in the camera - and the good news - the D300 has it! Can't remember where exactly - but try setting e1 in Custom setting menu - bracketing/flash!

I think the D300 can also go down to 100 ISO - it's called L1.0 on the D3 - just can't remember if the D300 has it - just try winding down further than 200!
 
Jen, I would get a Ring Flash adapter for your SB600 and bodies, search ebay for F155.

This will give a great light for lighting your subject whilst allowing the BG to be subdued whilst not casting a strong shadow from any one side.
 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
true but a brolly is cheaper - and you can use the D300 in commander mode to fire the SB-600 :)
 
awp said:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
true but a brolly is cheaper - and you can use the D300 in commander mode to fire the SB-600 :)
Click to expand...

And requires a stand and mount, I think the ring flash adapter at £22 is better vaue, more portable and less hassle than a brolly on a stand, and don't even get me started on wind :lol:
 
EdBray said:
Jen, I would get a Ring Flash adapter for your SB600 and bodies, search ebay for F155.

This will give a great light for lighting your subject whilst allowing the BG to be subdued whilst not casting a strong shadow from any one side.
Click to expand...

Ed, could you explain in what way such a thing would be advantageous for providing fill when shooting in bright ambient conditions and needing to overpower strong backlighting at high shutter speeds and with limited flash power courtesy of HSS?

As far as I can see it would rob the flash of power and most likely waste power further with an unfocused and uncontrolled dispersion of the light. Surely a focused/zoomed direct beam from on camera flash is perfectly fine for outdoor fill.
 
Tim, with a wide aperture at ISO200 the flash should have enough power (Dependant on distance) even with the adapter attached, certainly no less than shooting it into a brolly, I realise that the HSS mode uses pulses of light to cover the focal plane and that the power is reduced.

The problem with direct flash is that often the additional shadows spoil the effect if not done discreetly.
 
I understand all that, Ed, but in a situation where you are filling in against a backlight of bright sky and sunlit scenery there will be no visible shadows from the flash. Certainly there is none in my example in post #9.

Also, I'm not sure how HSS on Nikon compares with HSS on Canon, but as I understand it, as soon as you go into HSS territory, even by 1/3 stop (i.e. SS = 1/320), your flash power is roughly halved, and it is reduced more and more as your shutter speeds increase, roughly halving with each doubling of shutter speed.

If shooting in bright/sunny conditions at f/4 and 200 ISO you would be looking at a shutter speed of 1/3200 for a correct ambient exposure. The SB-600 has a GN of 42m at 200 ISO, used bare with no modifiers, and presumably at the long end of the zoom range. But, assuming I am correct about the flash reduction with HSS, you'd see the flash range reduce as follows....

At f/4 your bare flash at 1/250 would have a reach of 42/4 = 10.5m
At 1/320 reach would drop to 10.5/1.4 = 7.5m
At 1/640 reach would drop again to 7.5/1.4 = 5.3m
At 1/1250 reach would drop again to 5.3/1.4 = 3.8m
At 1/2500 reach would drop again to 3.8/1.4 = 2.7m
At 1/3200 reach would drop to ~2.4m

Of course, assuming you fill at -1 then you are up a little to around 3.4m, which is not a huge distance for outdoor shooting, but certainly doable, and not a bad distance overall.

If you then stick an unfocused modifier on the flash you could well reduce your range to half that figure, and shooting people at 1.7m is probably not a prefered distance generally. Of course, if my assumption on the constraints of HSS are wrong then that all changes. Even so, when trying to battle against nature's lighting with a single Speedlight I think you can't take liberties with what your flash can do. So if using on camera flash, which is what is being discussed here, I'm really not sure you can afford to start dispersing the light far and wide. An off camera brolly is different, because you can move it in close, but for on camera flash I would advise caution before spending out on an accessory that may be worse than ineffective.

Of course, I'm only speculating wildly, so if you know better I'll happily defer to your superior knowledge. :)

p.s. I just checked with my 7D and 580EX. According to the scale on the flash gun, at 200 ISO, f/4, 1/3200, -1 FEC the range is up to ~3.5m, so I think my assumptions are reasonable, given that the 580EX is significantly more powerful than the SB-600, with almost twice the reach (4X the power).
 
tdodd said:
I understand all that, Ed, but in a situation where you are filling in against a backlight of bright sky and sunlit scenery there will be no visible shadows from the flash.
Click to expand...

If the flash is bright enough to light the shadows against a backlit sky, it will be bright enough to cast shadows of it's own in those areas which can then look false if too bright.

Although your posted image is to small to see properly, it looks like there are shadows under the subjects hands (could not have been cast naturally), fortunately in this case not a big issue, but could cause problems if unaware and cast across faces.
 
Good work Tim. Modern dSLR can easily shoot at ISO400 with very little noise - if you need the range, just up the ISO a little.
 
EdBray said:
If the flash is bright enough to light the shadows against a backlit sky, it will be bright enough to cast shadows of it's own in those areas which can then look false if too bright.

Although your posted image is to small to see properly, it looks like there are shadows under the subjects hands (could not have been cast naturally), fortunately in this case not a big issue, but could cause problems if unaware and cast across faces.
Click to expand...

OK, I'm with you on that one. Here's a 100% crop of the hand area. Sure enough there is a small flash shadow, but really not an issue in this example.

20090418_151121_6583_LR.jpg


I'd still be concerned about the effect on range.

I just tried another experiment with my 580EX, this time setting shutter speed to 1/250 and adjusting the flash power manually to achieve the same range as with HSS at 1/3200. It turned out the flash had to be reduced to 1/32 power, or -5 stops, in order to match the distance. That's quite a loss of power/range, when using HSS, and certainly something to be aware of.
 
EOS_JD said:
Good work Tim. Modern dSLR can easily shoot at ISO400 with very little noise - if you need the range, just up the ISO a little.
Click to expand...

That won't help. If you bump the ISO your ambient exposure will increase, meaning you'd need to double the shutter speed, which would thus weaken the power of the flash and be completely self defeating. The best way to extract maximum power from the flash is to shoot at or below the sync speed.

That's why having 100 ISO available is nice, and using ND filters is better than increasing shutter speed. Of course, in lower levels of ambient light the problem starts to reduce, but sunny days can be a real bitch when you're trying to beat sunshine with a single Speedlite/Speedlite.
 
ND filters - on camera - would effect flash as well as ambient though.
 
awp said:
ND filters - on camera - would effect flash as well as ambient though.
Click to expand...

Yes, but no more so than stopping down, either of which would still allow the flash to deliver full output, unlike using HSS, which as described above will reduce the power output.

Lets' take that "Sunny 16" example and approach the situation of fill flash with three different options....

1. At 1/250 and 200 ISO you would f/14 for a "correct" ambient exposure. Your flash, with a guide number of 42m at 200 ISO would have a reach of 3m at a fill ratio of 1:1, or a reach of 4.2m at a fill of -1 stop.

2. At 200 ISO and f/4 you would need a shutter speed of 1/3200, which as we saw in the example earlier would only allow fill at -1 to a range of around 3.4m.

The difference might not be huge, but the maths favours taking steps to fire the flash at the sync speed and not faster.

3. In order to shoot at f/4 for your lovely DOF and at the sync speed of 1/250 (still stuck with that 200 ISO constraint) for maximum flash performance, you could use a filter to lose 3.7 stops of light, bringing that f/4 aperture up to the equivalent of f/14, and if you can achieve that you extend your flash range by almost 25%, back up to 4.2m instead of 3.4.

Of course, with a camera that can do a proper 100 ISO you can get away with a weaker ND filter, and in the right light (not Sunny 16 light) you may get away with no filter at all, and still enjoy wide apertures and full flash output.
 
I suspect the OP was asking about portraits - and if single person then the flash could be a lot closer than 3 - 4 meters. In the job I did last week the flash was 3 feet away from the subject most of the time - with a shoot through brolly - except when the sun was very bright. I don't think a shadow from the flash matters if you use the sun as your backlight - no different to using two sources in the studio.
 
The OP is using on camera flash. For portrait shooting, with a long lens, say a 70-200, I would typically not be shooting portraits from close up. This is obviously not a backlighting example, but this was shot at 100mm at a distance of 9.44m. It is uncropped. I think it would be very common, and desirable, to shoot people from around 3m minimum, and often considerably more.

20100103_112922_1352_LR.jpg


Of course, sometimes you have to operate within constraints and improvise. I'm not saying you can't get by at closer distances. What I am calling into question is the value of adding a light modifier to on camera flash for outdoor fill in bright conditions.
 
Best to get the flash of camera if possible - I was shooting with an 80-200mm at maybe 6 - 8 ft but the flash was closer - 3 - 4 ft just off camera axis. My shots were H/S, close up face and half length mostly. For the half and few full length shots I used direct flash but still off camera and closer than the shooting position. All just depends on the effect you want I suppose. :) No right and wrong - just different.
 
no doubt ocf (O meaning off) is the way to go - certainly better than on camera flash
 
Guys, thank you all so much for your input and knowledge. I will only be using flash as a fill on the kids and i need to keep it on board as theyre moving around so much. I doubt an umberella would work with them! Im delighted to find that i do have other ISO options L1, 0.7 & 0.3. There is also another setting for sync - up to 320(Auto F/P) !

Tim - you are a wealth of knowledge with this stuff, I usually only photograph in natural light but i struggled last year with high sun/flares, and had picture after picture of racoon eyes! i will look into the ND filters, once ive worked out how to use the flash correctly. Thank you again for your time advice.
 
Now go and shoot - and let's see the results! :)
 
I agree with all the advice you've had.

I just thought I'd point out that modern E/ITTL flashes are pretty clever and that you can almost point and shoot and get good results. Here's a 2 second snap of my youngest in the garden last year, heavily backlit and just using the pop up flash rather than my 430EXII:

3871660038_5e8fdae2d4.jpg


Shot in aperture priority mode, the flash did all the hard work for me. Manual mode gives you the flexibility to balance ambient vs flash creatively, but for quick and dirty snaps, the flash can do a lot of the hard work itself.
 
you always should expose for the part of the shot you want to be correctly exposed at the risk of blow out and/or darkening
for against the light...you may have to live with the overexposure unless its important in the shot...in which case fill lighting may help via your flash
 
Jen,
I was catching up on what Bert Stephani has been up to on YouTube. He has many great, short videos that show plenty of simple yet creative lighting techniques. This one drew my attention, with an example of turning day into virtual night, with simple use of flash....

http://www.youtube.com/user/bertstephani#p/u/10/blRdAr2VvnI

Watch the whole thing, but check out especially the section from 2 minutes on. So simple, so effective. I know he is using off camera flash, which has other benefits, and he is also not shooting on a dazzling sunny day, but the results that can be achieved by balancing flash vs ambient as you choose can be quite remarkable.

Check out his other vids too. :)
 
jeniveeev said:
Hi - I have a few questions re high sun outdoors and exposing correctly for the perfect picture :)!! (in an ideal world).

I was wondering what everyone else does when they have a strong backlight outdoors and how they expose for the subject to be correct together with having a decent background? I find that im blowing out the background and sometimes part of the subject, say their hair- it almost looks burned! Im looking to just light the hair and keep everything natural without washing everything out with major bright light!

Also, I have tried using exposure compensation and I dont see a difference at all, the histogram doesnt change and neither does the image! Am i doing something wrong? Or should i be bracketing up and down S/S to achieve proper exposure? :thinking:

Hope you can help
Many thanks
Click to expand...

Hi Jennifer

Call me old fashioned, but what’s wrong with simply using a reflector to bounce back the natural light? Use a stand for it if necessary, or grab yourself an assistant (kids at wedding are usually up for it).

Using a reflector gives you the opportunity to control the amount, direction and colour of the fill... And, of course, you can see the effect before you hit the button.

Flash, which has been well covered in this thread, is fine for certain things, but it’s not always the answer.

Sam-D
 
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