Baslow Edge Highland cows are gone following a dog incident

Messages
4,477
Name
Dave
Edit My Images
No
#41
I fear that warning signs would make little impact and possibly be vandalised or removed if the signs warning about sheep worrying I see are anything to go by.:(
 
Messages
3,147
Name
Jan
Edit My Images
No
#42
In this particular case, as far as I can see we don't know the full facts, however any cattle are inherantly dangerous, with or without calves, without or without dogs. I do a lot of walking on Dartmoor, where there are a lot of cows. All are beef breeds, like the Highlands and are theoretically more docile than dairy breeds. Most are perfectly fine - I can walk through the middle of a herd in touching distance and they won't look up from grazing, a sure sign that they're quite relaxed about me being there. I've met just one herd I've backed right off from, not even passing at a distance, because their behaviour was unusual. I came on them quite suddenly over a ridge, every head in the herd came up and all the time they could see me they watched me. That was odd. A lot of herds have their 'space'. Back off till the heads go down and they'll be happy for you to pass at that distance. I walk alone, and most of the time I literally do not know where the nearest human is, so it's all about being cautious, and learning animals' body language. It's not hard. I've walked inches from the nose of a Galloway bull and he took no notice at all, but one thing I never am is complacent. I'm actually not keen on cows at all, unless they're on my dinner plate. Most dog owners are fine, even if they do get 2 feet off tarmac and immediately take the lead off, when there are signs asking them not to, though I have seen the inevitable dog chasing sheep (I expect its owner thought it was 'just playing'). I've also seen kids chasing a sheep along a ledge on a tor, and a guy trying to hang on to his two little kids and a kicking pony while wifey tried to get a photo. Is it wrong of me to admit I was so hoping the kids would fall from the ledge and the guy get his face kicked? You should never blame an animal for its natural behaviour. The cows are not to blame, the pony wasn't to blame, the dogs are not to blame. Sadly, the animals just get the blame, while all attempts to educate humans end in failure because the ones who need educating think it's not their problem. A guy who lives near me used to had a malemute. A gorgeous dog, as friendly as you like, but he admitted he had to run him in an empty field because he couldn't get him to come back. When I asked him why he didn't train the dog he looked at me like I'd suddenly started speaking a foreign language. What can you do?
 
Messages
362
Name
Steve
Edit My Images
Yes
#43
Signed.

I well remember coming across a herd of these beasts in the dry valley above Malham Cove.
Very impressive close up!
 
Messages
5,426
Name
Robin
Edit My Images
Yes
#47
Signed!! And I VERY VERY rarely sign ANY petitions but this angers me greatly.

H&S need culling! They take matters too far and lack any kind of overview or perspective. I blame the blame culture!

The reasons why these Highland Cattle are there should overrule a complaint from a member of the public whether he/she/it is a dog owner or not.

P.S. - I love dogs but not some of their selfish inconsiderate and ignorant owners.
 
Messages
11,195
Name
Keith
Edit My Images
No
#48
Let me get this straight - the cows have grazed on this land for 40 years ... and some random person walking a dog got too close and 'felt threatened'? They weren't even injured? And because they complained these cows are now removed from the land, either killed off or sold on? That is ridiculous. Surely this dog-walker knew of their presence on this land? Why did they get too close? and why did they make such a melodrama out of it coming away without injury? Have they never been for a walk in the countryside before? Seems really strange to me that their complaint was even heard let alone this drastic measure

Signed and shared.
 
Messages
310
Name
James
Edit My Images
Yes
#49
If you take the reported information, cows with calves were on land with a public right of way. A person walking a dog on a lead along the path was confronted by the cows.
A complaint was made and the HSE has said that the cows are not allowed to be kept on the land when with calves.
I would suggest that perhaps the person did no wrong. i dont know the area but if they are on the path and came across the cows there is little they could do especially if returning the way they came was not feasible.
I could see several alternatives to the total removal of cows. Neuter the bull, separate the cow and calves from the herd for 2. Im sure that the cows that were to be put down could of been donated to a rare breeds farm or similar.
I agree that there should be no total ban but that doesnt seem to be the case and the owner seems to want to leave 30 cattle to roam un-attended and not put any effort into a solution.
 
Messages
587
Name
Kell
Edit My Images
Yes
#50
Signed.

I think people under-estimate the danger of cows, but they've long since been the most dangerous animal in Britain in terms of number of people killed.

While signs may not stop people entering, if they are present and people choose to ignore them, then it would (hopefully) prevent stupid rulings like this from taking place.
 
Last edited:
Messages
801
Name
Richard
Edit My Images
Yes
#51
cows with calves were on land with a public right of way
What do you recon? Teach cows to keep off the paths?

I would suggest that perhaps the person did no wrong.
Except for this...

Surely making a complaint because you felt threatened by a few cows is doing wrong?

How do we know they didn't try to shoo away the cattle and they reacted to that?

If everyone who went into the Peaks complained when they felt threatened by a cow when they were in their own habitat, there wouldn't be a single cow left.

I agree that there should be no total ban but that doesnt seem to be the case and the owner seems to want to leave 30 cattle to roam un-attended and not put any effort into a solution.
A solution would surely be, people respect the cattle? To suggest to neuter the bull is a joke right?
 
Messages
5,426
Name
Robin
Edit My Images
Yes
#52
Most members of the public are stupid and arrogantly think they have a right to go anywhere and do anything they want. They need to respect both livestock and wildlife and give them priority.

Paths across farmland should be closed in my opinion. I don't agree with public rights of way.
 
Messages
801
Name
Richard
Edit My Images
Yes
#53
Most members of the public are stupid and arrogantly think they have a right to go anywhere and do anything they want. They need to respect both livestock and wildlife and give them priority.

Paths across farmland should be closed in my opinion. I don't agree with public rights of way.
I'm all for paths across farm land, but if someone enters a field of anything, then they should respect the thing in the field. Much in the way that anyone with half a brain wouldn't walk over a field of a crop and crush it under foot you'd walk around it.
 
Messages
997
Name
Stephen
Edit My Images
Yes
#56
If I had a dog then I wouldn't go walking it through a field of livestock or bloodstock that had dependent young, nor would I walk it though a field containing a bull (even a beef breed with cows). As another forum member said above, there are plenty of other places to walk a dog, so I wouldn't feel particularly disadvantaged if I had to change my route for a few months. In my view, its all about understanding the countryside and working with it.

There are times when we've been on a holiday and gone out for a walk. Two thirds of the way through the walk and with only ONE footpath option, the farmer has put cows or a bull or horses in that field. Go back 6 miles? Is it the only option for them. Our dog IS kept on a lead whenever we are near any livestock and she is never walked in sensitive areas.
Going back to the original post, I think it is a shame that the cattle (we have walked there) should suffer such a fate.
 
Messages
19,953
Name
Alan
Edit My Images
No
#58
There was something on TV or maybe radio recently that said that if the UK was a football pitch the area built on would be the little quarter circle bit around the corner flag. I don't think it was exactly clear if they meant just one corner flag or the combination of all four but either way if this is true it puts things in perspective a bit.
 
Messages
340
Edit My Images
No
#59
if this is true it puts things in perspective a bit.
Yes it does but it's no good expecting the bee in bonnet crowd to see it that way. :(
 
Messages
1,387
Name
Simon
Edit My Images
Yes
#60
Agree - even if it's a public space there should be rules where dogs can and cannot be taken not just for the safety of other animals but also out of consideration for people (and I am not the only one) who really cannot abide dogs.
I just got a dog but have sympathy with what you are saying. Too many times my tripod has nearly been knocked over or I have stepped in mess or been jumped on by dogs. Saying that I walk mine on a lead if there is anyone around and pick up after her. Signage is important and the Peak District is more than big enough to accommodate dogs and coos
 
Messages
1,798
Name
Richard
Edit My Images
No
#61
There was something on TV or maybe radio recently that said that if the UK was a football pitch the area built on would be the little quarter circle bit around the corner flag. I don't think it was exactly clear if they meant just one corner flag or the combination of all four but either way if this is true it puts things in perspective a bit.
Yes, but all the empty bit is is Scotland . Exaggerating but my point is that that it’s very crowded where people are not where they’re not.
 
Messages
19,953
Name
Alan
Edit My Images
No
#62
Yes, but all the empty bit is is Scotland . Exaggerating but my point is that that it’s very crowded where people are not where they’re not.
I can understand how people can feel like this but we don't all live in cities. I live on the outskirts of Middlesbrough which is quite a large town but and if I walk for 20 minutes I'm in the hills and there might not be another person for miles. If I drive 20 minutes in the other direction I'm at a beach which is miles long and sometimes I can't see anyone else in either direction.

I know we're straying away from cattle and walkways here but for many of us and indeed even some who don't live in Scotland peace, quiet and indeed solitude in nature is only a few minutes away.
 
Messages
17,007
Name
Steve
Edit My Images
Yes
#63
I just got a dog but have sympathy with what you are saying. Too many times my tripod has nearly been knocked over or I have stepped in mess or been jumped on by dogs. Saying that I walk mine on a lead if there is anyone around and pick up after her. Signage is important and the Peak District is more than big enough to accommodate dogs and coos
Yep. I always grab camera/tripod if I see a dog. I’ve lost track of how often a dogs jumped up on me. I cannot abide the things but so many like them. I time a lot of things around avoiding dogs. I wholly avoid the Glencoe Lochan as it’s a dog walker hell
 
OP
OP
rob-nikon
Messages
4,985
Name
Rob
Edit My Images
Yes
#66
There was something on TV or maybe radio recently that said that if the UK was a football pitch the area built on would be the little quarter circle bit around the corner flag. I don't think it was exactly clear if they meant just one corner flag or the combination of all four but either way if this is true it puts things in perspective a bit.
That would have been a bbc article.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-42554635

The article says the built on area of the UK is roughly 6%. This figure is for discontinuous urban fabric (50-80% of an area built on). Where they confuse matters further is they also use continuous urban fabric (80-100% of an area built on) which is said to be 0.1%. This value is what they say is the area covered by the corner arcs on a football pitch. I’m not sure how they did their sums as a football is required to be a minimum size of 90m x 45m = 4050m2. The corner arc is supposed to be 1m radius = 1.5m2. Each corner arc area would roughly 0.0004% of a football pitch which clearly isn’t 6% or 0.1% of a football pitch. Using both of the figures to describe ‘built on’ areas can be confusing and misleading, it’s the density of build that’s important in these figures. Statistics can generally be made/used to suit the author and can be misunderstood if not clear.

The perceived amount of built up area is very dependant on where you live. I live in Bedford which by the BBC calculator is 9% built on. Milton Keynes which is 12 miles away is 23% built on and the area of the Lake District (Copeland) I visit is 3% built on.


1CFF087C-3142-4756-AE8A-7BC1B6A72A25.jpeg
F5C1D7C2-4491-4CA7-8A43-EF1DD18DE949.jpeg
 
Last edited:
Messages
29,351
Name
Bat-Frog
Edit My Images
No
#67
Possibly where you live mate. However where I live the councils are swallowing up green belt land and saving the brown sites for a rainy day.
Nationally.
You didn't say anything about where you are.

It would but we seem to have to build on every bit of open land in this country
 
Messages
604
Name
Paul
Edit My Images
No
#68
You only have to paint half a piece of wood to make it 100% chessboard.

The stats about the small amounts by of land built on underestimate the area over which construction impacts. A main road might only be twenty metres wide but it ruins tranquility for hundreds of metres either side.
 
Messages
8,183
Name
wayne clarke
Edit My Images
Yes
#70
Let me get this straight - the cows have grazed on this land for 40 years ... and some random person walking a dog got too close and 'felt threatened'? They weren't even injured? And because they complained these cows are now removed from the land, either killed off or sold on? That is ridiculous. Surely this dog-walker knew of their presence on this land? Why did they get too close? and why did they make such a melodrama out of it coming away without injury? Have they never been for a walk in the countryside before? Seems really strange to me that their complaint was even heard let alone this drastic measure

Signed and shared.
As I understand it in areas with a foot path there are rules about keeping cattle.
"Section 59 of the Wildlife & Countryside Act 1981 bans the keeping of bulls in fields crossed by a right of way, unless they are under the age of 10 months or not of a recognised dairy breed, provided they’re accompanied by cows or heifers (young female cows). Recognised dairy breeds are Ayrshire, British Friesian, British Holstein, Dairy Shorthorn, Guernsey, Jersey and Kerry. " They are also covered by "section 3 of the Health and Safety at Work Act 1974 both employers and those who are self-employed (these descriptions will apply to most farmers) have an obligation to ensure that people outside their employment, or work activities, aren’t exposed to unnecessary health and safety risks. They must make an assessment of potential risks in order to comply with the Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations 1992 (Statutory Instrument 1992 No 2051) and identify measures that can be taken in order to minimise them. "

Now I don't know the area concerned, or the exact details, but I do wonder if the animals would have been better suited to keeping somewhere away from the public when they have calves for both the animals and publics safety.
Putting them down seems exxcessive, I dont see why they couldn't be moved.
It's not unknown for farmers to keep bulls in a feild with a footpath to detere pubic access.
 
Messages
3,593
Edit My Images
Yes
#71
You only have to paint half a piece of wood to make it 100% chessboard.

The stats about the small amounts by of land built on underestimate the area over which construction impacts. A main road might only be twenty metres wide but it ruins tranquility for hundreds of metres either side.
Quite right, it's the fragmentation effect associated with built environment that needs to be taken into account. For instance, if a certain species of wildlife can't get across a busy main road, or a patch or ribbon of built environment, then it becomes isolated. Amongst other things, this can lead to genetic impoverishment (in-breeding) and can prevent recolonization if the species in a location isolated by built environment happens to become locally extinct. So it's far too simplistic to think that 'only' a certain percentage of Britain is built on, so it can't be that bad. It's the outcome of the combined effects that we need to consider and successfully address if we want to avoid condemning Britain's wildlife to 'death by 1000 cuts'.
 
Last edited:
Messages
6,874
Edit My Images
Yes
#72
Most members of the public are stupid and arrogantly think they have a right to go anywhere and do anything they want. They need to respect both livestock and wildlife and give them priority.

Paths across farmland should be closed in my opinion. I don't agree with public rights of way.
I know what you mean Robin about some people but disagree about closing footpaths
I’ve come across some muppets when I’m out but public footpaths have to be kept open
I do believe that dogs should be banned from nature reserves though
At my local reserve whixall moss there are signs everywhere to say keep dogs on leads because of ground nesting birds but most dog walkers let their animals run everywhere
The centre of the reserve was closed off last summer to all members of the public because of this which is extremely annoying to me as I now can’t access an excellent butterfly area
 
Last edited:
Messages
5,426
Name
Robin
Edit My Images
Yes
#73
I know what you mean Robin about some people but disagree about closing footpaths
I’ve come across some muppets when I’m out but public footpaths have to be kept open
I do believe that dogs should be banned from nature reserves though
At my local reserve whixall moss there are signs everywhere to say keep dogs on leads because of ground nesting birds but most dog walkers let their animals run everywhere
The centre of the reserve was closed off last summer to all members of the public because of this which is extremely annoying to me as I now can’t access an excellent butterfly area
.... Yes, I was a bit extreme in what I said about closing footpaths - It was just my initial reaction :D and sometimes I like to prod people.

Even though I adore dogs I think they should be banned from all designated nature reserves as too many owners ignore the signage about keeping them on the lead on reserves.

Otherwise I think that either public footpaths should not cross fields with livestock or crops OR that farmers should not keep livestock in fields where there are public footpaths without footpath fencing.
 
Messages
4,477
Name
Dave
Edit My Images
No
#74
Otherwise I think that either public footpaths should not cross fields with livestock or crops OR that farmers should not keep livestock in fields where there are public footpaths without footpath fencing.
Or the general public should learn and respect the fact that farmland is a working environment that has inherent dangers associated with it and that they should behave accordingly when crossing it.

Two sides to every argument. :)
 
Messages
5,426
Name
Robin
Edit My Images
Yes
#76
Or the general public should learn and respect the fact that farmland is a working environment that has inherent dangers associated with it and that they should behave accordingly when crossing it.

Two sides to every argument. :)
.... But in the real world we all know that GENERALLY most of the general public do not learn or respect such matters and neither have they ever done so.

What we believe they should do and what they actually do are very different. I agree that they should but they simply don't, unfortunately. I'm afraid that it's equally unrealistic to think that everybody can be educated to learn. This applies to much more than just behaviour in the countryside - Just think about litter as one of many examples.
 
Messages
1,413
Name
Mark
Edit My Images
Yes
#77
I do a lot of work in the Farming Industry and the disregard the general public show on on public footpaths is astonishing, the remains of picnics left in fields used for grazing, fires set, hedgerows and fencing wrecked ,gates left open. The general public have no concept of what rural life is about, the fact that fields are actually working environments not a place they are entitled to use because its green and in the countryside. The other thing is I've also a healthy appreciation of how dangerous cows can be either with or without dogs present, particularly when there are calves present. Cattle are best left well alone as they can be so unpredictable and they kill people! Cattle and dogs are a no no and you are asking for trouble either on a lead or not! If you do get chased with a dog, let the it go as it can run faster than you and the cattle will follow it. Not liking all this anti-dog sentiment, you can usually spot the dog haters as they are generally socially maladjusted and pretty self centered as can be noted by the vitriol they spit!
 
Messages
11
Edit My Images
Yes
#78
These animals are not there for the good of the public or the good of the land, they are not wild roaming, they are commercial assets, bread and farmed to be sold and salughtered for profit, wether that came now or later in their life cycle is irrelivent. These farmers know they should not have had calving heifers on publicly accessible land yet, continue to do so. Their reaction to culling the heard is because they know they are in the wrong and have been caught out.
It's also worth noting that this isn't the first time there have been issues here.
It's very likely the complaint came not from a townie, but from a local who knows the rules and is fed up of the liberties that have been taken.
But let's not let that get in the way of a good bit of outrage.
 
Messages
4,477
Name
Dave
Edit My Images
No
#79
.... But in the real world we all know that GENERALLY most of the general public do not learn or respect such matters and neither have they ever done so.

What we believe they should do and what they actually do are very different. I agree that they should but they simply don't, unfortunately. I'm afraid that it's equally unrealistic to think that everybody can be educated to learn. This applies to much more than just behaviour in the countryside - Just think about litter as one of many examples.
I agree, but... Unfortunately this always leads to legislating for the lowest common denominator at the expense of the liberties of the sensible human beings. It happens all the time in angling club rules and it p***es me off no end. We shouldn't be dumbing down all the time or the time will come when we have no freedoms left.
 
Last edited:
Messages
2,047
Edit My Images
Yes
#80
These animals are not there for the good of the public or the good of the land, they are not wild roaming, they are commercial assets, bread and farmed to be sold and salughtered for profit, wether that came now or later in their life cycle is irrelivent. These farmers know they should not have had calving heifers on publicly accessible land yet, continue to do so. Their reaction to culling the heard is because they know they are in the wrong and have been caught out.
It's also worth noting that this isn't the first time there have been issues here.
It's very likely the complaint came not from a townie, but from a local who knows the rules and is fed up of the liberties that have been taken.
But let's not let that get in the way of a good bit of outrage.
What's this, Vegan central opinion.
No cattle should be approached if they have calves and especially if you have a dog.
Your assertion implies that farmland with footpaths may no longer be used to keep cattle.
Who owns or pays rent for the land, having the right to walk along the footpath must be used with discretion you aren't entitled to dictate land use over the whole farm

Browsing cattle are very beneficial to rough grazing which will otherwise turn into long dead grass and scrub, smothering out unique native plants.
 
Last edited:
Top