Bird photography, Help needed please :)

Chilt · 21 Sep 2011

Hey guys, I have a 550D with a 70-200mm 4.0L Im just wondering hows the best way to get some close ups of birds. Cause i love bird photography.

When ive saved some pennies im thinking off getting the 400mm 5.6L

Any help would be brilliant.

Thanks

Nick

JSER · 21 Sep 2011

Chilt said:
Hey guys, I have a 550D with a 70-200mm 4.0L Im just wondering hows the best way to get some close ups of birds. Cause i love bird photography.

When ive saved some pennies im thinking off getting the 400mm 5.6L

Any help would be brilliant.

Thanks

Nick

Get a longer lens, why a fixed, the Sigma 120-400 wins AP awards for best lens and other mags.

I have the Sigma, my son the Nikkor 28-300

Sigma 120-400, you can even see a small fragment of nut flying off...
and again

artyman · 21 Sep 2011

You certainly need a longer lens, using a hide of some description, and enticing with food will help, though even using that you still need a long lens. The Sigma's offer the best reach at a budget price. the Sigma 150-500 being the cheapest way to get to 500mm, and it isn't too bad eiither.

tdodd · 21 Sep 2011

You may find some useful information here - http://www.digitalbirdphotography.com/contents.html

postcardcv · 21 Sep 2011

Chilt said:
Hey guys, I have a 550D with a 70-200mm 4.0L Im just wondering hows the best way to get some close ups of birds. Cause i love bird photography.

When ive saved some pennies im thinking off getting the 400mm 5.6L

Any help would be brilliant.

Thanks

Nick

The 400 f5.6 is a superb birding lens, the AF is very fast and it is very sharp wide open (on a par with the big expensive primes)... while saving for one the best way to get decent bird shots will be to set up a feeding station. This way you can bring the birds in reasonable close to you which will give you a decent chance with your 70-200 (adding a 1.4x would help too). When you put food out it is good to place sticks nearby as this will give a more natural looking shot than shooting them on a feeder. Also find out about some local birding sites, it is possible that they may have feeding stations you could shoot at or may have hides that allow very close views.

JSER · 21 Sep 2011

It is a personal choice, I chose not to have the 150-500 as it weighs a ton, and has a smaller ap, also I use the 120mm end a lot, but the 150-500 has had very good reviews.

Noithing beats a proper hide though.

Alastair · 21 Sep 2011

Depends what birds and where they are.

Canon 17-85mm kit lens.. and about a kilo of peanuts.. and a set-up only really practical for a back garden (but you don't say where you want to take the shots of birds).

There was a neat solution to getting more naturalistic setting for garden bird photography a week or two ago in AP. Making up a fake pool in a raised tray with careful arrangement of the window dressing to persuade the birds to go to a fixed point to drink. This autumn/winter I plan on applying some of this idea to improving the backdrops.. but I don't plan going beyond 105mm focal length.

postcardcv · 21 Sep 2011

JSER said:
It is a personal choice, I chose not to have the 150-500 as it weighs a ton, and has a smaller ap, also I use the 120mm end a lot, but the 150-500 has had very good reviews.

Noithing beats a proper hide though.

While a hide can be useful there is often no need to use one, if you set up a feeding station close to the house then there is no reason that you can't use the house as a hide. I often use my car as a hide - it's amazing how many birds will ignore you when in a car. One thing that will really help with bird photography is to spend time watching the birds and learning their behaviour. I have watched guys with thousands of pounds worth of gear flush the bird that they want to photograph purely because they were unable to read the behaviour as they tried to approach.

I agree that lens choice is a personal thing - for me the Sigma zooms are too slow focusing and the IQ is not as good as the Canon lenses. In my opinion the 400 f5.6 or the 100-400 IS are the best 'cheaper' birding lenses. If you want a lens purely for birds then the 400 f5.6 is hard to beat, I still regret selling mine and will buy another in the future. The 100-400 is almost as fast focusing and in the real world delivers almost as sharp images, plus it's got IS and a better close focus (but it is heavier). I'm not saying that the Sigmas are bad lenses, but in my experience (which includes using them in the field, not just testing in a shop) they are not as good as the Canon options.

JSER · 21 Sep 2011

postcardcv said:
While a hide can be useful there is often no need to use one, if

I agree that lens choice is a personal thing - for me the Sigma zooms are too slow focusing and the IQ is not as good as the Canon lenses.QUOTE]

I don't want to be confined to the house, and not everyone has a door/window facing into the garden. It is hard to take a house on location !, sorry.

As for the lens, most people using a Canon say that, I use a Sigma and my friend has a Canon, between us rarely, and I mean rarely can we tell the difference.

JSER · 21 Sep 2011

Alastair said:
Depends what birds and where they are.

Canon 17-85mm kit lens.. and about a kilo of peanuts.. and a set-up only really practical for a back garden (but you don't say where you want to take the shots of birds).

There was a neat solution to getting more naturalistic setting for garden bird photography a week or two ago in AP. Making up a fake pool in a raised tray with careful arrangement of the window dressing to persuade the birds to go to a fixed point to drink. This autumn/winter I plan on applying some of this idea to improving the backdrops.. but I don't plan going beyond 105mm focal length.

At last a true common sense answer to problems, AND reminding everyone that size doesn't matter!, it's what you do ......., and so true, about the lens, however why spend all that time as AP say making a fake pool, when in four hours you can have the real thing, photo at pool, and kit by pool.

Though I prefer your train shots.

So easy sitting with a coffee at 50' wireless

Also the pool has the benefit of attracting all wildlife through the year, frogs, newts, toads, birds and now we have a fox and hedgehog, cost of pool, logs free from local cemetery, liner £10, time 4 hours.

Go for a fixed 400+ if all you want is birds, but will you, 100% of the time only want a 400+mm, what about 100/200/300 only a zoom or a LOT of money can offer that.

400mm can more often than not be more than enough..........

Aviemore, "Scottish sunrise"

I used to live in Inverness, photographers paradise, Scotland.

Big Andy · 21 Sep 2011

Thats a fancy hide Jeremy, sat tv if things go quite.

I know it's a higher price than your planning but it might be worth looking at the new Sigma 120-300 os. There is a link below to a thread with sample images and more info.

http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=339648

JSER · 21 Sep 2011

Big Andy said:
Thats a fancy hide Jeremy, sat tv if things go quite.

I know it's a higher price than your planning but it might be worth looking at the new Sigma 120-300 os. There is a link below to a thread with sample images and more info.

http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=339648

((&%$**()()(**)

I looked at that lens, very very nice, but the weight is not suitable for walking days out, far too heavy.

Alastair · 21 Sep 2011

JSER said:
So easy sitting with a coffee at 50' wireless

Three lengths of USB active repeater, and I can sit with my coffee using EOS Utilities to remotely fire the shutter, adjust aperture, shutter speed and focus..

I like your wee pool.. not practical for my garden though, I built the pond before I started to think about photographing its visitors. A temporary raised pond will suit me nicely, and I'll swap it about between water and a feeding station as required.

I've been planting up containers as garden wildlife sets ready for next spring.. should have the edges nicely roughened over winter.

JSER · 21 Sep 2011

Alastair said:
Three lengths of USB active repeater, and I can sit with my coffee using EOS Utilities to remotely fire the shutter, adjust aperture, shutter speed and focus..

I like your wee pool.. not practical for my garden though, I built the pond before I started to think about photographing its visitors. A temporary raised pond will suit me nicely, and I'll swap it about between water and a feeding station as required.

I've been planting up containers as garden wildlife sets ready for next spring.. should have the edges nicely roughened over winter.

I built the pond 100% with wildlife photography in mind.

I will stay with the wireless, simplicity, for me it is easier I think, a bit like cable remote VHS, died when cable-less came out. I have sat doing it all from a laptop, can't be bothered now, though my 16" telescope is PC remote and I sit indoors.

Silver pixels · 21 Sep 2011

Many good points have already been made by previous posters but there is no 'one fits all solution'. You need to consider what sort of pictures your after and set your stall out accordingly. You tend to get out what you put in in terms of effort.

If you set up a feeding station it's vital to have (and stick to) a routine and it's amazing how quickly the birds recognise this. I had one in a local park and went at a similar time EVERY morning. It wasn't long (in winter) before the birds were waiting for me and in spring when they where feeding young they would take the food(suet) whilst I was putting it in the holes(that I had drilled). I was on speaking terms with the GSW on my flickr page and could stand amongst them and shoot without a problem.

The kingfisher required a different approach because I didn't have a hide. I set up a perch and watched through binoculars from a distance. Once it became confident and used it regularly i set up my camera(hidden), hid a distance away, pre focussed and fired by wireless remote mostly with the 100/400L. Sometimes it wouldn't land in the exact spot so the shots are a bit soft but i put some on my flickr page taken with the 70/200L and they are biting sharp!

So you see, it's a 'horses for courses approach' you need but wireless remotes are definately cheaper than lenses if you can utilise them! I think that, together with the previous posters, covers everything, I hope you find it helpful and that you enjoy your bird photography!

Regards

John

Silver pixels · 21 Sep 2011

Alastair said:
Three lengths of USB active repeater, and I can sit with my coffee using EOS Utilities to remotely fire the shutter, adjust aperture, shutter speed and focus..

I like your wee pool.. not practical for my garden though, I built the pond before I started to think about photographing its visitors. A temporary raised pond will suit me nicely, and I'll swap it about between water and a feeding station as required.

I've been planting up containers as garden wildlife sets ready for next spring.. should have the edges nicely roughened over winter.

Alastair,
I can see what I think is a wireless remote, a flash sensor in the hot shoe and a grip/battery pack. I don't see a WFT. Can you use USB wthout one? Where can I get the usb cables? Can you explain the set upplease?
It is an option I would like to use!

Regards

John

postcardcv · 21 Sep 2011

JSER said:
postcardcv said:

While a hide can be useful there is often no need to use one, if

I agree that lens choice is a personal thing - for me the Sigma zooms are too slow focusing and the IQ is not as good as the Canon lenses.

Click to expand...

I don't want to be confined to the house, and not everyone has a door/window facing into the garden. It is hard to take a house on location !, sorry.

As for the lens, most people using a Canon say that, I use a Sigma and my friend has a Canon, between us rarely, and I mean rarely can we tell the difference.

I didn't say anything about being confined to the house, I just suggested the OP could effectively used their house as a hide. Hides do have their uses but I don't agree with the statement that "nothing beats a proper hide" and I don't think that it is something that someone starting out in bird photography needs to splash out on. There are plenty of ways to get decent shots without using one.

Glad to hear that you are happy with your Sigma - enjoy it

Alastair · 21 Sep 2011

Silver pixels said:
Alastair,
I can see what I think is a wireless remote, a flash sensor in the hot shoe and a grip/battery pack. I don't see a WFT. Can you use USB wthout one? Where can I get the usb cables? Can you explain the set upplease?
It is an option I would like to use!

Regards

John

John, that's not a picture of my set-up

I don't think I have one from that session.

My set-up is..

Canon 40D plus lens of choice (was 17-85mm, will probably be Sigma 105mm this year).. in adverse weather I wrap the camera in a plastic bag with a rubber band holding the open end of the bag around the lens hood.
Yongnuo RF-602 WFT on the hotshoe, two flashguns with receivers on lightstands - one either side of the feeder area.. I may add a third to improve background seperation this year. The flashguns are protected from the elements with sandwich bags.
USB active-repeater daisy chain up the garden to a laptop in the house, running EOS Utilities in remote mode.

If I wanted to take this on the road and into the field.. I'd leave the laptop and USB repeaters at home, and instead use a second RF-602 on a seperate channel to remote trigger the shutter. In this case I'd spend longer on the focussing and aperture/flash power set-up before retreating out of sight.

JSER · 21 Sep 2011

postcardcv said:
I didn't say anything about being confined to the house, I just suggested the OP could effectively used their house as a hide. Hides do have their uses but I don't agree with the statement that "nothing beats a proper hide" and I don't think that it is something that someone starting out in bird photography needs to splash out on. There are plenty of ways to get decent shots without using one.

Glad to hear that you are happy with your Sigma - enjoy it

Depends, which is why hides are used by bird watchers, when out all day, rain, snow, wind, nothing beats a hide, I wouldn't sit all day in the cold in the open.

THIS is a fave amongst many nature photographers, I have one,

http://www.google.co.uk/products/ca...i=HDt6TsyiE9PC8QP9o_Ub&sqi=2&ved=0CE8Q8wIwAA#

shot this from it

Like all things, we are all different, I would never be parted from my Canon 28-135, or my renault Scenic, others prefer a Toyota, and one thing I have learnt is, never say what someone else has is no good or not as good as yours, ALL lenses are good, if what you have is what you can "afford" and or what you want.

JSER · 21 Sep 2011

artyman said:
You certainly need a longer lens, using a hide of some description, and enticing with food will help, though even using that you still need a long lens. The Sigma's offer the best reach at a budget price. the Sigma 150-500 being the cheapest way to get to 500mm, and it isn't too bad eiither.

[/img]

The 50-500 and 150-500 are one heck of a better lens than the sorry/terrible/lousy 170-500 I had from Sigma, stay clear of it used anyone thinking of one.

V E R Y nice shot

JSER · 21 Sep 2011

Silver pixels said:
Alastair,
I can see what I think is a wireless remote, a flash sensor in the hot shoe and a grip/battery pack. I don't see a WFT. Can you use USB wthout one? Where can I get the usb cables? Can you explain the set upplease?
It is an option I would like to use!

Regards

John

That's mine, and the "grip/battery pack is a Mets 45 cl-4 digital, what you can't see is the Mets and Sunpak flashguns on the tripod legs, all set to 1/8th to 1/16th power depending on conditions , allowing upto 8FPS shooting.

Use wireless USB as I do on my Astronomical mounts

tijuana taxi · 21 Sep 2011

Just sold my 400mm f/5.6, bit too shaky to hand hold steady enough and didn't focus close enough when used as a wildlife walkabout lens. Missed what could have been a great shot of a water vole last week, first one I have ever seen, looked right at me and pretty peeved about it.

Using a 70-200 f/4 with 1.4 TC now, bit short, but considerably lighter and has the all important IS as well

Silver pixels · 21 Sep 2011

Alastair said:
John, that's not a picture of my set-up

I don't think I have one from that session.

My set-up is..

Canon 40D plus lens of choice (was 17-85mm, will probably be Sigma 105mm this year).. in adverse weather I wrap the camera in a plastic bag with a rubber band holding the open end of the bag around the lens hood.

Yongnuo RF-602 WFT on the hotshoe, two flashguns with receivers on lightstands - one either side of the feeder area.. I may add a third to improve background seperation this year. The flashguns are protected from the elements with sandwich bags.

USB active-repeater daisy chain up the garden to a laptop in the house, running EOS Utilities in remote mode.

If I wanted to take this on the road and into the field.. I'd leave the laptop and USB repeaters at home, and instead use a second RF-602 on a seperate channel to remote trigger the shutter. In this case I'd spend longer on the focussing and aperture/flash power set-up before retreating out of sight.

Many thanks for the reply Alastair. I take it the usb is straight into the camera then? Are they called repeater cables? The pieces of kit we have in common are the sandwich bags and elastic bands LOL!

Silver pixels · 21 Sep 2011

JSER said:
That's mine, and the "grip/battery pack is a Mets 45 cl-4 digital, what you can't see is the Mets and Sunpak flashguns on the tripod legs, all set to 1/8th to 1/16th power depending on conditions , allowing upto 8FPS shooting.

Use wireless USB as I do on my Astronomical mounts

Hi, Thanks for the reply. I had recognised the Metz gun,I have three Sunpak 3600 (from the 80's) the pack i referred to was on the base of the camera.

Wireless USB intrigues me (its an age thing) would you mind elaborating please?

Alastair · 21 Sep 2011

John, you have to use USB "active repeater" cables when you start going any significant distance to avoid signal loss. Depending on the cable you can go up to 20 or 25m with the repeaters, plus the standard USB A-B cable for the final connection to the camera. I've chained 5m runs as the pricing made sense at the time.. I now see that 25m active repeaters are a much better price than they were.

JSER · 22 Sep 2011

Silver pixels said:
Hi, Thanks for the reply. I had recognised the Metz gun,I have three Sunpak 3600 (from the 80's) the pack i referred to was on the base of the camera.

Wireless USB intrigues me (its an age thing) would you mind elaborating please?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wireless_USB

Wireless usb has been around for some time to control telescopes, and other things as basic as printers etc.

Couldn't live without it, means I can sit in the warm and enjoy my Astronomy.

Silver pixels · 22 Sep 2011

When shooting 'tethered', how long will the picture (through the lens) remain on the screen. If you use 'live view' it shuts down after a while to prevent the chip from overheating.

I bought a Hahnel 'Inspire' and had exactly that problem, it would shut off the picture after about 30 mins. Does that not happen when 'tethered? :thinking:

Alastair · 22 Sep 2011

John, I can't remember.. I do know that you can switch live view on and off remotely when tethered, I'll have to test to see whether or not live view goes to sleep on its own whilst connected.

JSER · 22 Sep 2011

I thought of one of those and looked at them, but saw no use for it whatsoever, sitting 50' away with a coffee I can see when to take a photo without the need of a small tv, this may have been of use once when you were limited to 1fps, but shooting at 5fps on a 32Gb card, I rarely miss a shot I want, don't know how others feel about it but to me, not worth it.

I also don't use live view.

Also regardless of live view wireless or otherwise, if the CMOS is charged and drawing power it will heat up and still shut down.

http://www.eoshd.com/content/3062/h...ark-iii-cmos-could-mean-video-mode-sacrificed

As pixel count increases do does heat, therefore 30, 40 and more MPs sound good, but you are not told about the limitations.

JSER · 22 Sep 2011

If you are in a static position as I often am, home or out, and want live view I suggest that a basic VID camera, with a USB out port so it can be used as a webcam, like my Panasonic Vid cams, with wireless USB and a laptop, would offer 24 hour live view, the vid cam is so easily mounted on the leg of a pod with a Manfrotto hide clamp and ball head, laptop indoors/hide/car and youy have a constant view.

Chilt · 22 Sep 2011

Thanks everyone for the replies! This has gave me some great help!

MANY THANKS!

Nick

Silver pixels · 23 Sep 2011

Thanks for the replies guys, much appreciated. Jeremy, i don't have line of sight to the best shooting position available to me (not shooting into sun) and thought the 'Inspire' was the answer to my prayers. (it was, but only for about 30mins) I'm a carer and having the monitor on my belt was fantastic.

I'm now looking for other alternatives but preferably 'through the lens'. I have pan and tilt capability so I suppose the ideal would be a vid' looking thro' the viewfinder.

JSER · 23 Sep 2011

Silver pixels said:
Thanks for the replies guys, much appreciated. Jeremy, i don't have line of sight to the best shooting position available to me (not shooting into sun) and thought the 'Inspire' was the answer to my prayers. (it was, but only for about 30mins) I'm a carer and having the monitor on my belt was fantastic.

I'm now looking for other alternatives but preferably 'through the lens'. I have pan and tilt capability so I suppose the ideal would be a vid' looking thro' the viewfinder.

This is the combo I have used, but NOT cheap, it is the best setup available

http://www.intro2020.co.uk/pages/zigview6.htm

http://www.altairastro.com/product.php?productid=16225&cat=280&page=1

There are cheaper mounts available though

Silver pixels · 23 Sep 2011

Thanks Jeremy, that looks interesting. As I said, I have an electronic pan and tilt head so mounting isn't a problem. Pity the zigview isn't wireless but i suppose it's only a matter of time! Actually,thinking about it, the 'inspire' with the viewfinder camera would be ideal!!

JSER · 23 Sep 2011

Silver pixels said:
Thanks Jeremy, that looks interesting. As I said, I have an electronic pan and tilt head so mounting isn't a problem. Pity the zigview isn't wireless but i suppose it's only a matter of time! Actually,thinking about it, the 'inspire' with the viewfinder camera would be ideal!!

That is the main problem, however as I say I dont use it, however I will look into it as it will be of interest to me, if I find out anything new I will post here

By the way you do know that you can easily attach a webcam such as a philips to the eyepiece (well not easily but not hard), run it with a 5v supply and use wireless usb over 10m.

It hepls to be into Astronomy as well as Photography.

See my website

In fact no different to what birders do with a digital camera on a scope, except you are using wireless usb. In fcat some have a feed to their phones, I have seen it done via bluetooth as well, that is good onto a Blackberry.