Bird photography - metering

[Briony]

O.K having conflicting advice on what metering to use.

Do I use spot or partial :shrug:

Answers please guys and why.

Thank you

 

[artyman]

First thing is think about the light falling on your subject. Assuming BIF then a lot of the time the sky is going to be too bright so you would use spot, which is all well and good if you can keep the spot on the bird (difficult) A better approach is to think about the light source that is hitting the bird, is it full sunlight or sunlight reflected from the ground.

I find the best way is to take an evaluative reading of something with 18% grey value (grass) and set the exposure manually, adjusting exposure if the underside of the bird as it will be in shadow and receiving light reflected from the ground. So my most common metering is evaluative, though you could get the same answer by spot metering an 18% grey target. Relying on active metering is always going to be risky unless perhaps in woodland where the bird and background are similar in tone. Black and White birds are a nightmare

 

[clownfish]

/\ Agree.

Even with spot metering 9/10 it is likely to underexpose. Most of the time you wont have time to mess about so I always guess and start +1,2 or 3 stops (exposure compensation) depending on the conditions and adjust as necessary for subsequent shots.

 

[Suvv]

With spot you have to keep the spot on the bird and may have to compensate anyway, with partial you will be metering the background as well and this can change from sky to treeline to ground as you pan.

Manual is best, take a substitute reading and stick to that unless the light changes.

Have a look at this thread http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=115623&highlight=metering+birds

and also do a search for metering birds by tdodd, there are quite a few out there and Tim explains it well.

 

[Silver pixels]

Hi,
If your unsure about exposure it's always a good idea to "bracket" your shots a stop or two either way. You then have a further 2 stops either way available in your RAW editor, so exposure shouldn't be a problem. You can set this up on your camera easily enough. Menu/aeb. So if you follow the advice above and then bracket you should be well covered! HTH's

John

 

[suggs]

With the bracket option above, does this mean for every pic taken you will end up with several shots of the same image at different exposures and then pick the best one when down loaded?

Can the same result not be had with adjusting exposure +\- in the raw file during PP?

Thanks

 

[Roy C]

O.K having conflicting advice on what metering to use.

Do I use spot or partial :shrug:

Answers please guys and why.

Thank you

IMO neither, I would sugest evaluative and learn how and when to use exposure compensation.

Spot is OK in certain circumstances but can lead to weird results at times. Partial is a kind of half way house between evaluative and spot and much favoured by beginners until they begin to work out the mysteries of exposure comp.

For BIF manual is a favourite as it accommodates the bird flying through varying background.

A big clue is to go onto sites where the top bird photographers post and take a look at the EXIf info ( the vast majority will be using evaluative or the Nikon equivalent). Knowing precisely how much Ev comp to dial-in (if any) is the trick to good exposures and it is best to get to know one exposure mode and how that works in relationship to any given scene.

At the end of the day the important thing is to get the exposure more or less right in the Camera without relying too much on pushing or pulling in processing, So I guess whichever you find easiest to obtain correct exposure is the one for you.

 

[Roy C]

Just noticed you have the 7D Briony. For bird photography in particular this makes it all the more reason to use Evaluative as it is the only metering mode that takes into account the focus point. The system reads all 63 metering zones with the main emphasis being on the zone that matches the focus point - the next emphasis is done on the metering zones that are immediately next to the metering zone that matches the focusing point. In short , the exposure is heavily influenced by the focus point which is ideal for bird photography. I say again Evaluative is the only metering method on the 7D which takes into account the focus point. The 7D is the first Canon Camera to have this type of metering which is one reason why it is so popular with bird snappers (and sometimes unpopular with the likes of landscapers!).

It often amazes me just how good evaluative is on the 7D is (especially compared with pre 7D Cameras). You can take a picture of a crow on a light BG or a Egret on a dark background and providing the focus point is over the bird, then there is very little Ev comp needed for correct exposure. As I like to shoot to the right (ETTR) I use Ev + 1/3 as standard with evaluative metering.

 

[Briony]

Just noticed you have the 7D Briony. For bird photography in particular this makes it all the more reason to use Evaluative as it is the only metering mode that takes into account the focus point. The system reads all 63 metering zones with the main emphasis being on the zone that matches the focus point - the next emphasis is done on the metering zones that are immediately next to the metering zone that matches the focusing point. In short , the exposure is heavily influenced by the focus point which is ideal for bird photography. I say again Evaluative is the only metering method on the 7D which takes into account the focus point. The 7D is the first Canon Camera to have this type of metering which is one reason why it is so popular with bird snappers (and sometimes unpopular with the likes of landscapers!).

It often amazes me just how good evaluative is on the 7D is (especially compared with pre 7D Cameras). You can take a picture of a crow on a light BG or a Egret on a dark background and providing the focus point is over the bird, then there is very little Ev comp needed for correct exposure. As I like the shoot to the right (ETTR) I use Ev + 1/3 as standard with evaluative metering.

Thank you all for your help, trying to read and digest all

 

[Silver pixels]

"You then have a further two stops either way available in your RAW editor"

 

[Roy C]

RAW gives you a bit more wriggle room (which is why I always use it) but if you overexpose and actually blow the highlights they are unrecoverable (there is nothing there to recover!), even in RAW. If you underexpose and push in processing then you will increase the noise, especially in the shadowed areas. There is nothing like getting it right (more or less) in the Camera even if you shoot in RAW.
IMO good exposure is the most abused part of digital imaging - just because you can push or pull in processing a lot of folk pay little consideration to getting the exposure right in Camera, this results in blown and/or noisy images which are seen all to often, especially in bird photography.

For what it is worth, my aim when exposing is to slightly overexposed (ETTR) so that you get the full dynamic range. As long as important details are not fully blown you can always pull back a little in processing, applying it selectively if necessary.

 

[tdodd]

O.K having conflicting advice on what metering to use.

Do I use spot or partial :shrug:

Answers please guys and why.

Thank you

You have conflicting answers because people have different approaches to the problem. There is rarely a definitive solution that renders all other options redundant. Personal preference is undoubtedly one part of the equation, but so is the lighting, the subject, the scene, the choice of exposure mode and so on.

Personally I favour spot metering and manual exposure for almost everything I shoot, including BIF and BOAS, but that suits me. Sometimes I meter from something in the scene, sometimes something outside it. Sometimes I meter for the highlights, sometimes for the mid tones, sometimes for the shadows. Sometimes I don't even meter at all. I simply look at the light conditions and set a manual exposure that I believe will suit my needs.

You can listen to all the advice you like, but you have to find a system that you are happy with. Whichever approach you choose, you have to practice it, work it and refine it until you are happy with it. If you find yourself struggling with one technique then persevere or try another. Ultimately the solution is down to you.

The critical concept to be aware of is that whatever amount of the scene you are metering from, with the meter needle at 0 the camera will be trying to render that part of the subject/scene as a mid tone, equivalent to "middle grey". If you want the camera to make that part of the scene brighter than "middle grey" then, one way or another, you need to get the meter needle heading towards the positive side. If it should be darker than "mid grey" then you need to get the meter needle over towards the negative side. In an auto mode you do that with exposure compensation. In manual you simply adjust the exposure until the meter needle is positioned where you want it to be. It needs experience to figure out where that is.

Metering with a spot is very precise, like shooting with a rifle. Partial metering is like shooting with a shotgun. Centre weighted average is like shooting with a sawn off shotgun. Evaluative is like centre weighted average on steroids, with smarty pants scene analysis trying to work out what your subject is and what sort of scene you are shooting. It might get it right. It might not. The uncertainty is too great for my tastes. I find guessing at what the camera will make of the scene and how much EC to dial in to be monstrously tedious. For "average" scenes, maybe no problem, but for complex lighting situations, or tricky subject vs background combinations I can't be doing with it.

The reason I favour spot metering is because it reduces the level of uncertainty. I determine what is important within the scene and how I want it to look. I can place the spot on a small part of the subject/scene and dial in an exposure that nails that scene element exactly where I want it to be. That suits my method of working, with manual exposure. I would be very wary of using spot metering with autoexposure while trying to meter a moving target on the fly (literally). In fact, on the rare occasions when I do switch away from manual exposure mode I usually do use evaluative metering and let the camera work its magic. Those occasions are very rare indeed, for me.

 

[Briony]

You have conflicting answers because people have different approaches to the problem. There is rarely a definitive solution that renders all other options redundant. Personal preference is undoubtedly one part of the equation, but so is the lighting, the subject, the scene, the choice of exposure mode and so on.

Personally I favour spot metering and manual exposure for almost everything I shoot, including BIF and BOAS, but that suits me. Sometimes I meter from something in the scene, sometimes something outside it. Sometimes I meter for the highlights, sometimes for the mid tones, sometimes for the shadows. Sometimes I don't even meter at all. I simply look at the light conditions and set a manual exposure that I believe will suit my needs.

You can listen to all the advice you like, but you have to find a system that you are happy with. Whichever approach you choose, you have to practice it, work it and refine it until you are happy with it. If you find yourself struggling with one technique then persevere or try another. Ultimately the solution is down to you.

The critical concept to be aware of is that whatever amount of the scene you are metering from, with the meter needle at 0 the camera will be trying to render that part of the subject/scene as a mid tone, equivalent to "middle grey". If you want the camera to make that part of the scene brighter than "middle grey" then, one way or another, you need to get the meter needle heading towards the positive side. If it should be darker than "mid grey" then you need to get the meter needle over towards the negative side. In an auto mode you do that with exposure compensation. In manual you simply adjust the exposure until the meter needle is positioned where you want it to be. It needs experience to figure out where that is.

Metering with a spot is very precise, like shooting with a rifle. Partial metering is like shooting with a shotgun. Centre weighted average is like shooting with a sawn off shotgun. Evaluative is like centre weighted average on steroids, with smarty pants scene analysis trying to work out what your subject is and what sort of scene you are shooting. It might get it right. It might not. The uncertainty is too great for my tastes. I find guessing at what the camera will make of the scene and how much EC to dial in to be monstrously tedious. For "average" scenes, maybe no problem, but for complex lighting situations, or tricky subject vs background combinations I can't be doing with it.

The reason I favour spot metering is because it reduces the level of uncertainty. I determine what is important within the scene and how I want it to look. I can place the spot on a small part of the subject/scene and dial in an exposure that nails that scene element exactly where I want it to be. That suits my method of working, with manual exposure. I would be very wary of using spot metering with autoexposure while trying to meter a moving target on the fly (literally). In fact, on the rare occasions when I do switch away from manual exposure mode I usually do use evaluative metering and let the camera work its magic. Those occasions are very rare indeed, for me.

A man of information Thank you "Will you marry me" then I won't have to ask any more questions

Metering with a spot is very precise, like shooting with a rifle. Partial metering is like shooting with a shotgun. Centre weighted average is like shooting with a sawn off shotgun. Evaluative is like centre weighted average on steroids, with smarty pants scene analysis trying to work out what your subject is and what sort of scene you are shooting. It might get it right. It might not. The uncertainty is too great for my tastes. I find guessing at what the camera will make of the scene and how much EC to dial in to be monstrously tedious. For "average" scenes, maybe no problem, but for complex lighting situations, or tricky subject vs background combinations I can't be doing with it.

Such an easy and understandable explanation!

 

[tdodd]

A man of information Thank you "Will you marry me" then I won't have to ask any more questions

Putting the marriage proposal to one side )) I suspect more questions may follow. I don't really think I've provided much in the way of the information you were seeking. Hopefully I have provided a small insight into why the answer is not simple.

I think the written word can only take you so far. You wouldn't learn to drive from reading a book. You need to be taught to begin with and then you hone your skills through practical experience as time goes on. Photography is not so dissimilar.

This is where I think going out shooting with someone can help. You can study a scene together, discuss the lighting and the challenges it presents, and then figure out how to address the problem. Try a shot or two, review results, learn and adapt if necessary. That should accelerate your progress, and if not then at least there will be two of you to share in your frustration. You could always go for a drink.

 

[Briony]

Putting the marriage proposal to one side )) I suspect more questions may follow. I don't really think I've provided much in the way of the information you were seeking. Hopefully I have provided a small insight into why the answer is not simple.

I think the written word can only take you so far. You wouldn't learn to drive from reading a book. You need to be taught to begin with and then you hone your skills through practical experience as time goes on. Photography is not so dissimilar.

This is where I think going out shooting with someone can help. You can study a scene together, discuss the lighting and the challenges it presents, and then figure out how to address the problem. Try a shot or two, review results, learn and adapt if necessary. That should accelerate your progress, and if not then at least there will be two of you to share in your frustration. You could always go for a drink.

That is where I find it difficult, get to a shoot then deciding what settings to use. At the moment I am shooting on Auto to see what the settings give me then play around to see if I can replicate it.

Trying to find someone to go out with and understand and not worry about what questions I ask is the hardest thing :shrug:

 

[Roy C]

Evaluative is like centre weighted average on steroids, with smarty pants scene analysis trying to work out what your subject is and what sort of scene you are shooting.indeed.

I disagree with this somewhat for the 7D (not earlier Cameras thought). The 7D in evaluative is heavily biased towards the focus point so it does know what the subject is (providing you have the focus point over your subject of course).

As I previously stated, at the end of the day the most important thing is to get the exposure right - how you get there is somewhat irrelevant, whichever method works best for you is the right one.

 

[tdodd]

Well something like the Stokenchurch meet might provide an opportunity, or any number of other TP meets such as at the Cotswold Wildlife Park, for example. I've said in the past that if only I was closer I'd happily try to help you out, but really it's a bit far for me. I'm sure there must be someone closer by who can lend a hand, especially if you offer to share your kites with them.

 

[Briony]

Well something like the Stokenchurch meet might provide an opportunity, or any number of other TP meets such as at the Cotswold Wildlife Park, for example. I've said in the past that if only I was closer I'd happily try to help you out, but really it's a bit far for me. I'm sure there must be someone closer by who can lend a hand, especially if you offer to share your kites with them.

Ahhhhhhhhhhhh Thanks anyway, if you are ever up this way, call in :shrug:

Oh well will keep looking :shrug:

 

[Silver pixels]

"That should accelerate your progress, and if not then at least there will be two of you to share in your frustration. You could always go for a drink."

Brilliant!!

 

[hollis_f]

With each new generation of Canon cameras I find myself using 'Evaluative' more and mor e often. However, in unchanging light I do prefer to use Manual exposure.

 

[Roy C]

With each new generation of Canon cameras I find myself using 'Evaluative' more and mor e often. However, in unchanging light I do prefer to use Manual exposure.

Absolutely agree with this - people think evaluative is just metering the whole scene which it may have been at one time but nowadays with it being linked to the focus point it is so much more useful for the likes of bird photography.

I switched to Manual for most everything two or three years ago but nowadays I use evaluative most of the time and just using manual for flyers.

 

[tdodd]

Evaluative is a metering mode. Manual is an exposure mode. You can combine them or separate them. It is not a question of picking one or the other.

In cameras prior to the 7D evaluative metering was also biased towards the active focus point. The 7D takes that further by being colour aware and trying to fathom which part of the scene is your subject, rather than simply limiting the biasing region to the active point meter zone (and possibly nearest neighbours). I believe the 7D can expand that zone if it thinks your subject occupies a greater part of the scene. Whether this is helpful, especially if your subject is at either extreme of the tonal range, is another matter.

In practice that means that your exposures will be hard to predict and vary randomly as you choose different focus points within the scene. Here is an example of an identical scene, shot in Av mode with 0 EC and changing nothing except the AF point used. It's made a right mess of the results. Two different exposures and neither one terribly good....

That's a difference of 2.3 stops solely by changing AF point. If that's the sort of performance you are heralding as a technological breakthrough then you can keep it.

If my subject is a black dog (mine is dark brown) sitting on the lawn (or worse, in the snow) and he/she is small in the frame I suspect evaluative metering will give me one exposure value. If I zoom in or move closer and fill the frame with the dog then I expect that value to change. It ought not to, but I bet it does. Same thing with a frame filling swan vs a little tern hovering about at a distance. If the lighting on the subject is the same then the exposure should be too, regardless of its size in the frame.

Suppose you had a Nigerian groom embracing a Scandinavian bride. You focus on the eyes of one of them. Which one would you choose? How would the metering/exposure be affected by switching between them? The exposure should not change at all, yet I bet it does. Could I predict the amount of EC required each time, without taking a test shot and chimping? No. Could you?

I know that example is extreme, and it's not birds, but birds have differing tonal patches on them. Undersides are often paler than topsides. Some have dazzling white patches. What about a magpie? You might need to think very carefully about what evaluative metering wold do for you there. If the bird fills the frame then those differing areas will have more influence. If the AF point influences the exposure so much then you'll need to be careful where you choose to focus on the bird.

 

[Briony]

Someone got a sat nav and snorkel please? as I am totally lost and way out of my depth

 

[tdodd]

Someone got a sat nav and snorkel please? as I am totally lost and way out of my depth

I'm sure Roy and Frank will explain.

 

[u8myufo]

Evaluative is a metering mode. Manual is an exposure mode. You can combine them or separate them. It is not a question of picking one or the other.

In cameras prior to the 7D evaluative metering was also biased towards the active focus point. The 7D takes that further by being colour aware and trying to fathom which part of the scene is your subject, rather than simply limiting the biasing region to the active point meter zone (and possibly nearest neighbours). I believe the 7D can expand that zone if it thinks your subject occupies a greater part of the scene. Whether this is helpful, especially if your subject is at either extreme of the tonal range, is another matter.

In practice that means that your exposures will be hard to predict and vary randomly as you choose different focus points within the scene. Here is an example of an identical scene, shot in Av mode with 0 EC and changing nothing except the AF point used. It's made a right mess of the results. Two different exposures and neither one terribly good....

That's a difference of 2.3 stops solely by changing AF point. If that's the sort of performance you are heralding as a technological breakthrough then you can keep it.

If my subject is a black dog (mine is dark brown) sitting on the lawn (or worse, in the snow) and he/she is small in the frame I suspect evaluative metering will give me one exposure value. If I zoom in or move closer and fill the frame with the dog then I expect that value to change. It ought not to, but I bet it does. Same thing with a frame filling swan vs a little tern hovering about at a distance. If the lighting on the subject is the same then the exposure should be too, regardless of its size in the frame.

Suppose you had a Nigerian groom embracing a Scandinavian bride. You focus on the eyes of one of them. Which one would you choose? How would the metering/exposure be affected by switching between them? The exposure should not change at all, yet I bet it does. Could I predict the amount of EC required each time, without taking a test shot and chimping? No. Could you?

I know that example is extreme, and it's not birds, but birds have differing tonal patches on them. Undersides are often paler than topsides. Some have dazzling white patches. What about a magpie? You might need to think very carefully about what evaluative metering wold do for you there. If the bird fills the frame then those differing areas will have more influence. If the AF point influences the exposure so much then you'll need to be careful where you choose to focus on the bird.

I have witnessed this for myself Tim, zooming in or out does make a difference.I found this with some Kingfisher shots a while back, zoomed right in and the subject was exposed nicely but the water was dark, almost to the point of being Black. Zoom out just a bit staying with the same metering and as if by magic the water starts to show up as it should. Has this anything to do with the field of vision Tim? I still reckon that if you are using spot metering as an example and even if it is on a small subject, if the field of vision is greater by zooming out then there is defo more light getting on to the sensor. I tend to shoot in manual, I will meter off the perch to start with and adjust to get exposure spot on. Then depending on what bird comes into play I can then quickly adjust to suite, forefinger on front dial to adjust shutter and thumb on the rear dial for aperture, for instance a Dunnock being slightly on the darkside I just overexpose a stop or so, when I then get a lock on the bird the exposure drops back down again enough so that it is not too overexposed. As mentioned what is good for one person may not suite somebody else.

 

[hollis_f]

Evaluative is a metering mode. Manual is an exposure mode. You can combine them or separate them. It is not a question of picking one or the other.

Yes, I assumed that it would be obvious that saying 'I use evaluative..' was shorthand for 'I use evaluative metering to determine the exposure required when I'm shooting in Aperture Priority Mode".

Your examples demonstrate that one cannot use evaluative metering to determine the exposure required when shooting in Aperture Priority Mode blindly. One has to be aware of how using evaluative metering to determine the exposure required when shooting in Aperture Priority Mode actually works. And to switch to a different mode, or to apply some exposure compensation, if it's going to be needed. If you try to use evaluative metering to determine the exposure required when shooting in Aperture Priority Mode in situations where it's not going to work then you have only yourself to blame. If either myself, or Roy, had tried to proclaim using evaluative metering to determine the exposure required when shooting in Aperture Priority Mode then we would deserve to have people point us out in the streets and laugh.

If the AF point influences the exposure so much then you'll need to be careful where you choose to focus on the bird.

Which applies equally to any automatic exposure method. Indeed, Spot Metering is almost certainly going to give worse results as your metering point wanders over the magpie. At least with modern Evaluative Metering the system can look at a group of focus points to try and determine the full extent of the subject, thus allowing it to realise that you're trying to shoot something black and white and looking through its database to try and come up with a decent compromise.

 

[tdodd]

For those still struggling to understand my ramblings, my approach to exposure is based on a simplified interpretation of the Zone System. In outline it is explained in this article - http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/zone_system.shtml.

 

[CT]

There's lots of well -meant advice here Briony, but the basic problem is that you're asking a question which needs someone to write the equivalent of a book to answer and no-one is going to do that - there are numerous books on the subject already, and a lot of the info you're trying to get is only a click or two away via Google anyway.

You have two basic issues...


(1) You don't have a fundamental grasp of exposure technique.

(2) You don't really understand what the purpose of the different metering modes are in your camera and when you should use one in preference to another.

The truth is that manufacturers put these various modes at your disposal for your convenience, but you need to understand the metering patterns of these different modes, to know when a particular mode is going to be beneficial to you or when it's likely to be 'fooled' by prevailing light conditions. None of these modes is foolproof.

People can keep posting advice into this thread for another fortnight but you're just going run around like a chicken with it's head cut off until you get a good understanding of your basic issue No1. Once you have that understanding things will become a lot clearer but it's something you're going to have to apply yourself to understanding. It really isn't very difficult but you can make it seem so by avoiding the issue. Put the camera aside and get stuck into a good book on basic exposure - THEN pick up the camera and start to apply some of what you've learned.

 

[Briony]

There's lots of well -meant advice here Briony, but the basic problem is that you're asking a question which needs someone to write the equivalent of a book to answer and no-one is going to do that - there are numerous books on the subject already, and a lot of the info you're trying to get is only a click or two away via Google anyway.

You have two basic issues...


(1) You don't have a fundamental grasp of exposure technique.

(2) You don't really understand what the purpose of the different metering modes are in your camera and when you should use one in preference to another.

The truth is that manufacturers put these various modes at your disposal for your convenience, but you need to understand the metering patterns of these different modes, to know when a particular mode is going to be beneficial to you or when it's likely to be 'fooled' by prevailing light conditions. None of these modes is foolproof.

People can keep posting advice into this thread for another fortnight but you're just going run around like a chicken with it's head cut off until you get a good understanding of your basic issue No1. Once you have that understanding things will become a lot clearer but it's something you're going to have to apply yourself to understanding. It really isn't very difficult but you can make it seem so by avoiding the issue. Put the camera aside and get stuck into a good book on basic exposure - THEN pick up the camera and start to apply some of what you've learned.

God, I am now sorry I asked a BASIC question :bang: thought that this was the was the basic thread. Just proves what I said in another post that one is frightened to ask a question when I get answers like yours.

We are not all "knowledgeable scientists" when it comes to photography and I for one find it difficlut to understand and get the grasp (hence my stupid title below my name thanks to the mods who seem to like to have a laugh at our expense :nono

Perhaps I should give up after all :shrug: but am wanting to learn and that is why I asked the question I have read all this and "yes" it has gone over my head (hence the joke re about the snorkel and sat nav, but obviously you have not got a sense of humour)

"Once you have that understanding things will become a lot clearer but it's something you're going to have to apply yourself to understanding"

If I understood it I woud not have asked the question in the first place. :shrug:


I will read and re- read what is written in the hope it makes some sense to me but then Hey! who knows.

Everyone has their own opinions on this and not everyone is going to offer the same advice so I will just have to figure out what works the best for me :shrug:

After all I am only trying to learn what is relatively new hobby for me and it is not for the want of trying to learn, that is why I ask questions

I won't ask any questions again.:shake: as I do not wish for another onslaught.

 

[tdodd]

The question is so easy to ask. The answer is complex. That is not the fault of anybody trying to help you. Do you want the right answer or the easy/lazy answer?

Perhaps it would help if you explain your current approach and in what way you are unhappy with the results. Maybe some sample pictures, before edits, would help.

 

[Briony]

Thanks for your help Tim, but when I post a picture and one person says spot one person says evaluative, and another, partial metering it is one thing that seems I am going to have to figure out for myself.

No one is going to be happy and there is always someone that does not agree, we all ahave our own opinions.

Will try and get some lessons locally independently, (not that I have not tried already though:shrug

 

[CT]

God, I am now sorry I asked a BASIC question :bang: thought that this was the was the basic thread. Just proves what I said in another post that one is frightened to ask a question when I get answers like yours.

We are not all "knowledgeable scientists" when it comes to photography and I for one find it difficlut to understand and get the grasp (hence my stupid title below my name thanks to the mods who seem to like to have a laugh at our expense :nono

Perhaps I should give up after all :shrug: but am wanting to learn and that is why I asked the question I have read all this and "yes" it has gone over my head (hence the joke re about the snorkel and sat nav, but obviously you have not got a sense of humour)

"Once you have that understanding things will become a lot clearer but it's something you're going to have to apply yourself to understanding"

If I understood it I woud not have asked the question in the first place. :shrug:


I will read and re- read what is written in the hope it makes some sense to me but then Hey! who knows.

Everyone has their own opinions on this and not everyone is going to offer the same advice so I will just have to figure out what works the best for me :shrug:

After all I am only trying to learn what is relatively new hobby for me and it is not for the want of trying to learn, that is why I ask questions

I won't ask any questions again.:shake: as I do not wish for another onslaught.

Get a grip will ya! That was meant to be a helpful reply and it's probably the best piece of advice you're going to get on the subject. You put your finger on the problem yourself - everyone is giving you different advice on what works for them and with no disrespect meant- it works for them because they know when to override their chosen mode - you don't so it's pretty pointless to keep chucking conflicting information at you which you're unlikely to assimilate.

Anyone who is serious enough about photography to buy a 7D should have the commitment to make a bit of an effort themselves.

 

[Briony]

Get a grip will ya! That was meant to be a helpful reply and it's probably the best piece of advice you're going to get on the subject. You put your finger on the problem yourself - everyone is giving you different advice on what works for them and with no disrespect meant- it works for them because they know when to override their chosen mode - you don't so it's pretty pointless to keep chucking conflicting information at you which you're unlikely to assimilate.

Anyone who is serious enough about photography to buy a 7D should have the commitment to make a bit of an effort themselves.

O.K. just wanting to be fairly good at it and able to afford a 7D to photograph the subjects I wanted it for.

I asked questions to be able to put into practice what people have said.

It is not for the want of trying to get some lessons but to no avail.

 

[u8myufo]

Thanks for your help Tim, but when I post a picture and one person says spot one person says evaluative, and another, partial metering it is one thing that seems I am going to have to figure out for myself.

No one is going to be happy and there is always someone that does not agree, we all ahave our own opinions.

Will try and get some lessons locally independently, (not that I have not tried already though:shrug

Despite our little misunderstanding last week Nicki, which if you were to put into perspective it was nothing to get that upset about ( we have only a small amount of time on this planet ) I have apologised to you which you did not accept as such, I have offered to make ammends, meet up and go over our settings together. I mentioned to Fernface that if we whent down to where you shoot I could set mine up as I would approach the situation and judge for myself what lighting you are dealing with, I could have then compared to the settings you have been using. His reply to me was "She will not do that" :shrug: My initial thought was, what is it a top secret spot where the Nuthatch lives I would be happy to shoot a house brick in the woods if it were to help you in some way. I thought Cedric gave you some sound advice there. A lot of people started with film camera`s so learnt the real basics. Changing over to digital imo was made slightly easier for us. I think the problems nowadays people face when using a DSLR for the first time is the amount of confusing things that are at our disposal, it must be like a minefield, technical info for this and technical info for that since buying a digital camera I have read nothing on pixels, nothing on sensors and nothing on a lot of other ***** that is out there to confuse the likes of me
Keep it simple!!

 

[CT]

O.K. just wanting to be fairly good at it and able to afford a 7D to photograph the subjects I wanted it for.

I asked questions to be able to put into practice what people have said.

It is not for the want of trying to get some lessons but to no avail.

OK that's fair enough. I dunno how you photograph birds, but for me it's a waiting game punctuated sometimes by periods of intense activity. Also most of the places I shoot at I might be shooting in quite a wide arc with birds landing in several places within range - some in shade, some in sunlight and accompanied by periods of changing light anwyay. The last thing I want to do is miss a fleeting opportunity messing about with the mode dial or balancing the exposure.

My advice until you know a lot more about what you're doing is to shoot in AV Mode and use Evaluative metering. It's going to get you usable results in most situations anyway and even when it's not quite right editing will save the day in a lot of cases.

It depends what you'r e interested in. I'm sure there are a lot of photographers reading this thread who know little more about basic exposure than you do Briony and who get excellent results using AV Mode.. If that's the case ... who cares? :shrug:

That's what these modes are for - to make life a lot easier for you. If you really want to understand how and why these modes work and in what circumstances, then you need to dig a little deeper, but if you don't then it wont stop you enjoying your bird photography or taking many excellent pictures of them.

 

[Briony]

Despite our little misunderstanding last week Nicki, which if you were to put into perspective it was nothing to get that upset about ( we have only a small amount of time on this planet ) I have apologised to you which you did not accept as such, I have offered to make ammends, meet up and go over our settings together. I mentioned to Fernface that if we whent down to where you shoot I could set mine up as I would approach the situation and judge for myself what lighting you are dealing with, I could have then compared to the settings you have been using. His reply to me was "She will not do that" :shrug: My initial thought was, what is it a top secret spot where the Nuthatch lives I would be happy to shoot a house brick in the woods if it were to help you in some way. I thought Cedric gave you some sound advice there. A lot of people started with film camera`s so learnt the real basics. Changing over to digital imo was made slightly easier for us. I think the problems nowadays people face when using a DSLR for the first time is the amount of confusing things that are at our disposal, it must be like a minefield, technical info for this and technical info for that since buying a digital camera I have read nothing on pixels, nothing on sensors and nothing on a lot of other ***** that is out there to confuse the likes of me
Keep it simple!!

Misunderstanding or not, where I shoot is on our private land (the Nuthatches are actually on our rented land and I can shoot there with permission from the land owners, but preferably on my own) and not open to everyone. :shrug:

It is like everything, too saturated not saturated enough, not sharp enough, oversharp, too much contrast etc but surely photography should be and is what, YOU, yourself see and what YOU are happy with.

We cannot possibly all see the same thing and we all have different monitors that we view shots with (calibrated or not!)

 

[Briony]

OK that's fair enough. I dunno how you photograph birds, but for me it's a waiting game punctuated sometimes by periods of intense activity. Also most of the places I shoot at I might be shooting in quite a wide arc with birds landing in several places within range - some in shade, some in sunlight and accompanied by periods of changing light anwyay. The last thing I want to do is miss a fleeting opportunity messing about with the mode dial or balancing the exposure.

My advice until you know a lot more about what you're doing is to shoot in AV Mode and use Evaluative metering. It's going to get you usable results in most situations anyway and even when it's not quite right editing will save the day in a lot of cases.

It depends what you'r e interested in. I'm sure there are a lot of photographers reading this thread who know little more about basic exposure than you do Briony and who get excellent results using AV Mode.. If that's the case ... who cares? :shrug:

That's what these modes are for - to make life a lot easier for you. If you really want to understand how and why these modes work and in what circumstances, then you need to dig a little deeper, but if you don't then it wont stop you enjoying your bird photography or taking many excellent pictures of them.

Waiting game, sat for hours (up to 10 to get a shot of kites feeding on the ground and going to be several hundred hours waiting for the buzzard also i expect. I go out almost knowingly what I want to shoot, ie nuthatches, treecreepers and will sit there and wait for them having done my homework on what they eat etc and feeding them in the week s previous.

I shoot in AV & TV mode and was happy with the metering until someone suggested trying a different one, that is where the huge can of worms opened up.

My kites in flight are pre set into the camera so I don't have to mess around with the settings and I only shoot in blue skies, not use taking them in cloud then having to do masses of PP to make your photos to look half decent :shrug: which alot of people seem to do, a picture is what you see at the time of shooting in my eyes, with the minimal amount of P & P.

May be the wrong attitude but that is my personal opinion.

 

[tdodd]

I dunno how you photograph birds, but for me it's a waiting game punctuated sometimes by periods of intense activity. Also most of the places I shoot at I might be shooting in quite a wide arc with birds landing in several places within range - some in shade, some in sunlight and accompanied by periods of changing light anwyay. The last thing I want to do is miss a fleeting opportunity messing about with the mode dial or balancing the exposure.

Not replying to you, CT, but using your response to bounce off from.....

And my approach is completely different. I'm not an avid birder, but when I choose to go I pick my weather conditions, direction of light and direction of shooting. I don't shoot in a wide arc. I shoot when the birds are in a position which lights them well. I have my camera set up for that light. If the birds are in shade or "the wrong sort of light" for my tastes then I (probably) won't pull the trigger. If I do chose to fire a shot then it will be because I am set up to shoot in those conditions, not because the bird has suddenly placed itself there.

But this doesn't apply only to shooting birds. I apply it to almost everything I shoot. Sometimes I do have no choice and I do have to go with the flow, lightwise. I can't react in a split second, but if I can anticipate in advance (and I usually can) then I can have the camera set up in readiness. The bottom line is that I try to anticipate and plan ahead, even if only by a few seconds, rather than reacting to an event as it happens.

If I'm doing "walkabout" shooting then I always keep an eye on the light - is it sunny, is it shady, has a cloud blown over or blown away, where do I think my next shot will be, will my subject be front lit, back lit, will it be bright/white, will it be dark, and so on. I will routinely check the meter in the camera against my palm, or some grass, or the sky, or something else suitable and maybe make a small adjustment ahead of time. Maybe I'll even fire a random test shot and just check that I'm good to go. So long as the light does not change then I'll continue to be good to go for the foreseeable future.

 

[u8myufo]

Misunderstanding or not, where I shoot is on our private land (the Nuthatches are actually on our rented land and I can shoot there with permission from the land owners, but preferably on my own) and not open to everyone. :shrug:

It is like everything, too saturated not saturated enough, not sharp enough, oversharp, too much contrast etc but surely photography should be and is what, YOU, yourself see and what YOU are happy with.

We cannot possibly all see the same thing and we all have different monitors that we view shots with (calibrated or not!)

Waiting game, sat for hours (up to 10 to get a shot of kites feeding on the ground and going to be several hundred hours waiting for the buzzard also i expect. I go out almost knowingly what I want to shoot, ie nuthatches, treecreepers and will sit there and wait for them having done my homework on what they eat etc and feeding them in the week s previous.

I shoot in AV & TV mode and was happy with the metering until someone suggested trying a different one, that is where the huge can of worms opened up.

My kites in flight are pre set into the camera so I don't have to mess around with the settings and I only shoot in blue skies, not use taking them in cloud then having to do masses of PP to make your photos to look half decent :shrug: which alot of people seem to do, a picture is what you see at the time of shooting in my eyes, with the minimal amount of P & P.

May be the wrong attitude but that is my personal opinion.

Which in reality brings us around to why so many people have had enough of the forums. I for one am not going to keep posting Nice shot Comments Nicki. This is a Photography forum in my eyes and the photography aspect of it comes first. If somebody`s picture is way of of the mark in a lot of aspects, do you honestly think saying aww lovely shot is going to help them improve? I think not, but then there are probably a few who do not wish to learn and are quite happy with those sort of replies. I can assure you that I did not have to do a Mass of PP to get my Kite shots looking half decent against a Grey sky " As this is what you seem to be applying " But if you are happy to carry on with your settings then that is your choice. You seem to slag off the editing side of things as well, yet. http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=214429

 

[CT]

May be the wrong attitude but that is my personal opinion.

I think 'wrong attitude' would have to be the understatement of the year judging by your last couple of posts and your response to Rich in particular.