Bird section

Captive birds - agree with above - I once semi said what I thought and got a very sharpe response - I think one of the Mods is a fan
 
I too have a conflict with captive/baited/rescued birds/animals.
No denying there are some absolutely stunning images out there, but I have sunk hours and hours of sitting, watching and waiting with limited success.
This is kind-of what spurs me on to keep going - always trying to improve, but what I don't want it to become, is 'shooting fish in a barrel'.
On that basis, I haven't really posted up any pics of mine recently, as I know they're noisy (9pm on a poor low-light camera does that), and I'll know that in about 2 hours there will be a pin sharp/good light photo of the same species by someone else (quite demoralising! lol).

However my wife made a bit of an observation that maybe this is the distinction between who likes the nature side and who *just* wants that good photo.

As for general C&C, I'm happy to give my opinion, and that may be about the circumstances around the photo, it maybe for a newbie to try to pass on some of the simple stuff I've learnt, or to make an ID, or quite simply to praise someone on what I would consider to be a "nice pic bro (y) ".
I've seen crit go up that I completely agree with (albeit sometimes bluntly), and then that person gets attacked for it, it does make you wonder if some people actually want it or not.
 
Photography takes in all sorts of genres including birds both wild and captive,I believe that we should be happy that people choose either one or both.
For me I love photographing wild birds but I have also photographed captive birds both perched and in flying displays ... it used to be a regular event for some forum members to go to the Barn Owl Centre in Gloucester for photography days. The owner, Vince, would fly various birds in a meadow and show others, eg a Little Owl in outside settings ... these visits were very popular and very enjoyable too, though the birds were captive it gave the togs an opportunity to practice their skills and was always a great day all round.
 
Mark, just out of interest what is your view on the pay to view BOP images ,I only ask as I know some members see it no different than photographing captive birds, in most cases these birds are baited in order to allow the client to get the best shot available were no input from the client is needed, no field craft whatsoever ,and a decent shot is very easily achieved as most of the work(set up) as been done , that is what you pay the money for...so you post the set up image up from a workshop against one that's been taken from a photographer who as spent x amount of hours waiting to get the shot naturally etc with no added interference and I can bet a pound to a penny the set up one will get all the comments of great shot ,best I have seen etc,while the other shot posted imho would have had hours of watching ,waiting and a lot of missed shots and opportunities and then get no comments at all to the point were they will stop posting images ....,CC should be judged a lot more on the ability of the photographer, equipment and the circumstances ,don't get me wrong on the workshop images as I do it ,its just not fully publicised what I do ,there's many little owl images on the net that are from one of my sites ,and if I didn't bait at one of the sites there is no way I would have got the images I was looking for when I started out ,I am now slowly getting un-baited shots from other sites that give me a bigger sense of achievement from the final outcome ,I would then like to be judged CC wise on those shots as it would be all about experience and knowledge of the bird that got me the shot,i then would expect honest and polite CC on those shots judged on that,......................Captive birds have their part to play in photography ,some people who take up a camera have never seen a BOP up close and finding one local at a charity event or whatever will be very pleased to have got a couple of shots with the limited equipment they have ,that person should still feel confident at posting the image without it being dismissed because its captive, because imho it does come across as being quite condescending even though you may not mean it when you say you will not comment ,but you would if it was a wild bird ,even though it was baited ,that's if I have interpreted what you said earlier to Sean correctly, now I didn't comment on Seans(not just picking your image sean its just yours was a good eg) image because to be honest he was already telling us that they were already great and that he had a canvas done ,that's when i decided no matter what I said it wouldn't make any difference ,mind made up and all that....typical Face book /flickr mentality and that as creeped in to the bird section with a lot of images ,imho when contributing CC to a member take in to consideration a few pointers ,and then leave honest and polite feedback simple ....
 
Last edited:
I reckon that landscape photography should be split into those shots that the photographer had to walk miles to get to the location and then wait hours for just the right conditions and lighting, and pics that were taken by photographers who stopped their car at just the right time to take a quick snap.
:)
I'm not a bird photographer, so forgive me for not really understanding what all the fuss is about.
It seems that the mechanics of the picture taking is more important than the photograph.
 
To Marks original point about the 'nice shot' comments. The issue I have is that this is often posted when the shots are clearly not very good at all. This helps no one and letting a poster believe his/her shots are of an acceptable standard when they are crap is just wrong. There are some very competent bird togs on here and there is some dreadful dross posted too.

Plenty of folk speak a lot but say nothing.
 
Im here to learn, I might not like what some people have to say and won't agree with everything said, that's just not in this section as I normally tend to shoot Rugby & some of them can be blunt :) . But what I do know is that some of my images wouldn't' be as good if I hadn't of listened to some of the CC.
 
Den, i have no issue with wild birds taking bait as long as its done so that the bird is not entirely reliant on the food and they still need to hunt for themselves. I have and will continue to use hides at times where certain birds get food left out for them. I think Bence Mate has a good compromise in that the forrest hides dont get any food at all but he has a pool for them if they want to drink or find other pools to drink from. I do feel a bigger sense of satisfaction when i do the ground work myself or go stalking various wildlife to get my pics which i mostly do and maybe use a hide once or twice a year.
 
Last edited:
BRASH said:
To Marks original point about the 'nice shot' comments. The issue I have is that this is often posted when the shots are clearly not very good at all. This helps no one and letting a poster believe his/her shots are of an acceptable standard when they are crap is just wrong. There are some very competent bird togs on here and there is some dreadful dross posted too.

Plenty of folk speak a lot but say nothing.
Click to expand...

Brash my point to this is that to some its simply a nice shot and shouldnt be stopped from doing so. This forum has loads of levels and to someone learning then if thats all they can add then so be it, who are we to tell them not to say it. If i or yourself want to add comment then even better as its something learned through experience. My point is not to discourage anyone from making comment no matter if it doesnt fit with our own thought process, after all these people need to learn.
 
I think so much of this depends on practicality for the person involved ... location, time available and circumstances.
Many will love photographing birds but have limited opportunity to find them and may visit hides in reserves, Gigrin Farm etc in order to use what time they have to do what they enjoy doing ... whereas others will have ideal circumstances and maybe suitable locations virtually on their doorstep.
 
Den i forgot to reply to your other point- yeah i make no bones about not commenting on captive birds the same as i dont comment in say the nudes and glamour section- it doesnt interest me in the slightest so why would i feel i need to leave a comment just so i didnt look condecending- im up front about it and even going to the trouble to explain if you feel that thats condecending then nothing else i can say will change that. I seldom comment on your images, not because they are baited or because they arent good etc but because on reading threads a while back your threads have in the past gone downhill with responses you have got for your images or you have returned said comments and as i mentioned before im here to enjoy my photography and not to get involved in pettyness in cetrain threads and thus just dont comment. I will say you have some lovely images of the owls and i can see you have done your homework with them and i cant knock that in any way.
 
Last edited:
markyboy.1967 said:
Brash my point to this is that to some its simply a nice shot and shouldnt be stopped from doing so. This forum has loads of levels and to someone learning then if thats all they can add then so be it, who are we to tell them not to say it. If i or yourself want to add comment then even better as its something learned through experience. My point is not to discourage anyone from making comment no matter if it doesnt fit with our own thought process, after all these people need to learn.
Click to expand...
What they need to learn is to look at a shot and see it for what it is. If it is indeed a nice shot then fair enough, no problem but if it's a crap shot and there are plenty about in all sections, saying 'nice shot' is not helpful. It may well be the case the individual thinks it's a nice shot but that shouldn't prevent anyone else stating the contrary and directing that person in the right direction also. Then you have folk that'll post any old pish comments to get their post counts up.

It's quite clear in forum rules (which I apparently contravene with monotonous regularity:)) that photographs posted are done so in the acceptance that critique can and will be given, with the exception of those posted in the For Pleasure section of course.
 
markyboy.1967 said:
Den i forgot to reply to your otger point- yeah i make no bones about not commenting on captive birds the same as i dont comment in say the nudes and glamour section- it doesnt interest me in the slightest so why would i feel i need to leave a comment just so i didnt look condecending- im up front about it and even going to the trouble to explain if you feel that thats condecending then nothing else i can say will change that. I seldon comment on your images, not because they are baited or because they arent good etc but because on reading threads a while back your threads gave in the past gone downhill with responses you have got for your images or you have returned said comments and as i mentioned before im here to enjoy my photography and not to get involved in pettyness in cetrain threads and thus just dont comment. I will say you have some lovely images of the owls and i can see tou have done your homework with them and i cant knock that in any way.
Click to expand...
That's fine and a fair comment ,but the reason why some of my threads have gone downhill is due to a small section of members who decide to use it to have sly digs at my expense ,and that's a reason why I don't comment much on other peoples shots for fear of the usual crew jumping on board and really making it their mission to finds ways of having other digs,and they know who they are ...I want to carry on enjoying my wildlife and my photography and they will not stop me doing that ,but it as stopped me commenting a lot less than I would like to do
 
Brash as you mentioned they do need to learn and by saying nice pic and not being criticised fir doing so with keep them enganged in the hope that they feel free to make comments further on as they gather confidence and experience.if you give crit then great as it will allow thrse guys to see how it can or maybe in your case should be done. The OP would see the crit as helpful and just disregard the other comment as i do and no doubt you do as well.
 
Den i dont blame you for the posts in most cases and can see that some have had digs and in some cases you do your own part. I am speaking from a while back and a few of those guys are no longer on the forum( or at least not under their original name). I look at your threads and half expect some digs or sorts but to be honest im either getting used to it or your getting allowed to get on with things as of late.
 
markyboy.1967 said:
Den i dont blame you for the posts in most cases and can see that some have had digs and in some cases you do your own part. I am speaking from a while back and a few of those guys are no longer on the forum( or at least not under their original name). I look at your threads and half expect some digs or sorts but to be honest im either getting used to it or your getting allowed to get on with things as of late.
Click to expand...
You know the saying what cant be cured must be endured ....just off to my hide, I hope this thread doesn't go of track as it could be interesting to hear what other members think of the Nice shot ,me I am not a fan of it and I don't see it as being positive if a shot is blatantly not
 
Last edited:
markyboy.1967 said:
Brash as you mentioned they do need to learn and by saying nice pic and not being criticised fir doing so with keep them enganged in the hope that they feel free to make comments further on as they gather confidence and experience.if you give crit then great as it will allow thrse guys to see how it can or maybe in your case should be done. The OP would see the crit as helpful and just disregard the other comment as i do and no doubt you do as well.
Click to expand...
Not always the case tho is it. Quite often the dummy gets spat and crit ignored and the op will gladly soldier on in the misguided belief their work is of an acceptable standard when it's not. Perhaps places like Facebook are responsible for this type of attitude.

Then you get those, that when critiqued will then state, oh that's what I was aiming for, that's what I meant blah, blah, blah. A big boy did it and ran away etc etc.
 
den said:
You know the saying what cant be cured must be endured ....just off to my hide, I hope this thread doesn't go of track as it could be interesting to hear what other members think of the Nice shot ,me I am not a fan of it and I don't see it as being positive if a shot is blatantly not
Click to expand...

On this occasion, I agree with Den. I'm in Portugal and off out for a Mexican meal with my fat ugly wife. Enjoy.
 
BRASH said:
On this occasion, I agree with Den. I'm in Portugal and off out for a Mexican meal with my fat ugly wife. Enjoy.
Click to expand...
Off topic but that sounds bloody lovely being in Portugal and off for a Mexican just tops it off , enjoy Brash I'm now hungry :(
 
BRASH said:
To Marks original point about the 'nice shot' comments. The issue I have is that this is often posted when the shots are clearly not very good at all. This helps no one and letting a poster believe his/her shots are of an acceptable standard when they are crap is just wrong. There are some very competent bird togs on here and there is some dreadful dross posted too.

Plenty of folk speak a lot but say nothing.
Click to expand...
Same for every forum, surely
Right...but right
 
AdamSi said:
Off topic but that sounds bloody lovely being in Portugal and off for a Mexican just tops it off , enjoy Brash I'm now hungry :(
Click to expand...

I'm back now, bloody lovely it was too. Yummmmmmmmm!!!!
 
oldandintheway said:
Same for every forum, surely
Right...but right
Click to expand...
Yes it is but Marks questions were specific to the bird section but it does apply to all sub forums, with the exception of the filmies who are just on a different planet all together.
 
I very rarely post critique in the bird forum any more. Partly because I don't want to upset anyone if I say what I feel. However you put it someone is going to take umbrage with it. Also I'm not sure if my own abilities qualify me to give any critique. We all have our idea of what makes an image good in our eyes. I look at my own stuff and think, this could be better, I need to go back and recrop and rework this.

I don't like captive bird photography or any captive animal photography and it's something that I move quickly on from if I think it's captive. Its a simplistic attitude that ignore the lots of good work these places do for animal and bird welfare. It's just not my thing.
 
Last edited:
With all due respect Mark this topic has run it`s coarse now and is getting pretty boring.Myself as well as few others that have been on TP for four or five years, have given a lot of time with regards to offering C&C and help to others,especially newcomers.All those that used to contribute did so on diferent levels according to their own knowledge and ability.I never classed myself as an expert on anything and still don`t,however that never stopped me from saying what I either felt or seen.I in turn may have had my comments disputed,but it was all taken in as a learning process for myself as much as anybody else,and any disagreements between ourselves never got to the stage that they boiled over and caused bad feelings between us.And just to clarify abrupt comments were taken in our stride.Where did it all go wrong? When people came along who wanted the sugar blown up their arse all the time,when people posted pictures up every other day and then every five minutes.When people got upset at the slightest fault,when people could spit the dummy easily enough but did not have the people skill to discuss and talk in a civil manner about something which had been pointed out.When people came along and as soon as you mention something not right they for some strange reason regard you as a troll co`s its the latest buzz word going around.

There are probably another fifty reasons why all this has escalated to the state it has today.But one last one sticks out to me which has crept in gradually over time eating away at the bird section.People who came along and gave nothing back in return with regards to C&C, I know the same old faces that partake in similar threads such as this,they can walk the walk ok,but they never talked the talk when it mattered,which from my reckoning was a good couple of years ago.Don`t get me wrong, I am not saying they have never contributed,but on the whole compared to how much everybody used to help others out on a weekly if not daily basis and keep the section alive and buzzing,it has been pretty minimal.If for every time someone posted a picture up, they had a quick scout through the first three pages of the section and offered a meaningfull comment or a small bit of advice on two other threads,you may just have a chance of getting it back on form again.Off to get a bag of Popcorn now :D
 
u8myufo said:
With all due respect Mark this topic has run it`s coarse now and is getting pretty boring.Myself as well as few others that have been on TP for four or five years, have given a lot of time with regards to offering C&C and help to others,especially newcomers.All those that used to contribute did so on diferent levels according to their own knowledge and ability.I never classed myself as an expert on anything and still don`t,however that never stopped me from saying what I either felt or seen.I in turn may have had my comments disputed,but it was all taken in as a learning process for myself as much as anybody else,and any disagreements between ourselves never got to the stage that they boiled over and caused bad feelings between us.And just to clarify abrupt comments were taken in our stride.Where did it all go wrong? When people came along who wanted the sugar blown up their arse all the time,when people posted pictures up every other day and then every five minutes.When people got upset at the slightest fault,when people could spit the dummy easily enough but did not have the people skill to discuss and talk in a civil manner about something which had been pointed out.When people came along and as soon as you mention something not right they for some strange reason regard you as a troll co`s its the latest buzz word going around.

There are probably another fifty reasons why all this has escalated to the state it has today.But one last one sticks out to me which has crept in gradually over time eating away at the bird section.People who came along and gave nothing back in return with regards to C&C, I know the same old faces that partake in similar threads such as this,they can walk the walk ok,but they never talked the talk when it mattered,which from my reckoning was a good couple of years ago.Don`t get me wrong, I am not saying they have never contributed,but on the whole compared to how much everybody used to help others out on a weekly if not daily basis and keep the section alive and buzzing,it has been pretty minimal.If for every time someone posted a picture up, they had a quick scout through the first three pages of the section and offered a meaningfull comment or a small bit of advice on two other threads,you may just have a chance of getting it back on form again.Off to get a bag of Popcorn now :D
Click to expand...


Nice post:)
 
Interesting thread, well, it has the potential to be.
 
fracster said:
Interesting thread, well, it has the potential to be.
Click to expand...

Thing is Ade, this age old topic does not really have to exist at all imo.If people just got it out of their heads, that each time somebody points out something wrong with their picture,that they are not a troll,that they are not picking on them deliberately,or that they are not making themselves out to be far superior than the OP,then the better things will be.Most of it is just based on figments of peoples imagination.We do not expect each and everyone of us to reply to every post,neither has it ever been asked.Something else that we should look at is the response from the OP themselves.A typical reply "Thanks guy`s". FFS! Come on,if people are making the effort to reply in your thread at least have the courtesy to respond accordingly.And these are the ones maoning about the nice shot comments.Again nobody is asking the OP to answer each and everyone of those replies,but at the very least they could just quote one or two,especially if someone has suggested something or asked the OP why this that or the other had not been tried.Straight away people see that as the OP has not took any real notice of the comments,it works both ways.If people just put as much effort into the art of discussing things a little bit more in their own threads as they do on commenting in threads such as this,there would be absolutely no problem at all. :)
 
Guys,I've lurked here a while,i'm new and learning. I deeply need help and constructive critique,so I can improve. almost to a man I have looked at all flickr of you good folks above and feel you have something to teach me.

As I mentioned earlier, I've lurked a while and would class meself as a bit of a softy,I wondered for a good while whether the.... how can I state this... almost harshness of some crit would be good for me. Much depends on one's level of expertise,the last thing I would want to do if I had expertise is to quosh the enthusiasm of a guy starting out. So I feel crit can be delivered in a polite and constructive way but still maintain that positivity.

It's really difficult when one is fairly new to offer something back,in some cases all I feel I can say is nice shot,but I want to try to add something more. As although I'm no great shakes as a tog I feel everyone has a right to an opinion,we all have eyes and certain images appeal to a given person.

I don't want smoke blowing ,nor rudeness,but I need help. Lets remember though that for the vast majority of us we are not pros. This is our hobby it's meant to be fun,however serious we are and how ever far we want to take this,the joys of being out watching the marvels of nature and trying to capture moments of it is a fun challenge and a complete bloody awesome joy at times.Ha even if I didn't get the shot.

So essentially I'd ask some of you whom don't give crit so much now to rethink for us newer folks,I for one an not up for throwing me dolly out of the pram,but take it as read I am definitly up for some fun and to have a crack with ya''ll. Life's too short to do otherwise,I will not be taking something personally if you see something negative in my image and try to educate me,but I might try to make ya smile.

With regards to captive birds,I sat in a hide yesterday,it is a baited place all animals and birds completely wild it was fantastic practice for me. But at the same time as I was taking shots of a fallow and fawns the photographs felt almost hollow to me. I hadn't stalked them I hadn't sat and waited in the real sense,but I came home with something to ponder. Mark I suppose I feel the same way about captives. I feel there is nothing wrong and personally enjoy looking at others images,and one needs to take pictures to learn,but it's not really what floats my boat. Maybe I'm just weird and need to suffer a bit. Ha I completely botched the wild stalk of some fallow later the same day,back to the drawing board!!;)
take care

Stu
 
den said:
You know the saying what cant be cured must be endured ....just off to my hide, I hope this thread doesn't go of track as it could be interesting to hear what other members think of the Nice shot ,me I am not a fan of it and I don't see it as being positive if a shot is blatantly not
Click to expand...

I totally agree with you that if a shot is clearly not a nice shot and people are just blowing smoke up others backsides for the sake of it.However a nice shot to a beginner without the knowledge or experience maybe just that and better than anything they actually have.I would expect more from someone with some more knowledge and experience to state where the OP could have made improvements but also not to slag off the inexperienced person who said nice shot.The hope here is that people get involved and by doing so will look at others comments and take them onboard themselves and so get better and leave better feedback.What i hate though and rightly or wrongly is when someone comments on an image and tells the OP where there could have done better but can't do it themselves hence my " walk the walk" comment earlier in the thread.
 
markyboy.1967 said:
What i hate though and rightly or wrongly is when someone comments on an image and tells the OP where there could have done better but can't do it themselves hence my " walk the walk" comment earlier in the thread.
Click to expand...

not quite getting what you mean by this comment
are you saying that for example if they do not do bird photography then they should not comment?
photos they post are generally not upto standard?

To be honest I have done very little bird photography for quite a while so have sort of not been involved very much with the forum either, when I was reasonably active I more or less gave up trying to give my opinion
1. I went through a spell would look for the posts with 0 or 1/2 replies and try and give some sort of opinion as I thought if they weren't regulars they got overlooked
2. More often than not would not even get acknowledged

When i have asked for c&c it has been forthcoming and extremely helpful and in my opinion I think when people post in the forum they do not realise that it is subject to c&c, I know there are posts to state this but nobody reads them :) the heading for the section > Photo Genres Discussion & Critique so people think it will be discussed ie nice pose/bg etc and not necessary expecting c&c unless specifically asked for
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top