Birmingham cars could be banned from driving through city centre

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Rapscallion said:
You dont happen to working in the car industry do you?!

You seem to have conveniently forgotten:-
Environmental costs?
Health impacts?
Costs of premature deaths associated with pollution?
Cost of the land used for roads?
Cost of accidents?
Impacts of noise pollution?

A conclusion from a previous government report below. Note the last paragraph
"So it would appear that the overall costs imposed on society by motoring outweigh the revenues obtained from motorists, probably very substantially."


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I can't conveniently forget what wasn't mentioned in the original statement. The original statement was for new roads and road repairs and that is the figure I quoted.
VED and fuel aren't the only sources of revenue the government gets from motorists. There is the revenue on insurance, breakdown cover, vehicle maintenance and repairs, aftermarket modifications, use of a car wash, buying a jetwash and shampoos, polishes and waxes if you wish to clean the car yourself. All adds onto the revenue raised from motorists.
 
broc said:
If the Government didn't levy so much tax on fuel, where would you like the taxes to be levied? Given that the Government needs the tax revenue to function, would you rather all food was taxed, or see income tax rates increased? Basic rate Income tax rate in 2000 was 23% vs 20% today......

At least with fuel duty & VAT on fuel, 'we' users have a choice about paying it.... If we use energy efficient appliances and fuel efficient vehicles we pay less tax......
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I would rather they spent less money on stuff like their own bonuses, benefits, foreign aid to China, India space program, jihadi training and so on as well as epic failures like NHS database or HS2. It can be slimmed down a lot where it doesn't actually affect the people.
 
Rapscallion said:
I am pretty sure that if you work out the taxes paid by motorists vs highways maintenance and improvement, the motorist is getting subsidised by other tax payers...
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LOL. Highways are unquestionably the very worst in the whole of the EU. I drive around a lot. UK roads cost me a fortune in suspension repairs.
 
Rapscallion said:
You dont happen to working in the car industry do you?!

You seem to have conveniently forgotten:-
Environmental costs?
Health impacts?
Costs of premature deaths associated with pollution?
Cost of the land used for roads?
Cost of accidents?
Impacts of noise pollution?

A conclusion from a previous government report below. Note the last paragraph
"So it would appear that the overall costs imposed on society by motoring outweigh the revenues obtained from motorists, probably very substantially."


​
Click to expand...

You forgot the cost of melting snowflakes!
 
LongLensPhotography said:
LOL. Highways are unquestionably the very worst in the whole of the EU. I drive around a lot. UK roads cost me a fortune in suspension repairs.
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You've obviously not driven in Crete.

Only ever had to replace worn out shocks on older cars, never broken a spring or other part.
 
Nod said:
You've obviously not driven in Crete.

Only ever had to replace worn out shocks on older cars, never broken a spring or other part.
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I have a crazy long time ago. Rental car was with full ins. so I just didn't pay much attention at all.

When I go out in my own I do pay very close attention. I don't let it become saggy and dangerous and replace anything that becomes a little loose immediately. There is no point risking accident, and almost certainly collateral damage to other suspension components.

P.S. Do have a drive through Malvern hills and report back your repair bill if you miss the nice bit.
 
Nothing saggy or dangerous about any of our vehicles. Just driven with due care and attention to the road surface.
 
Nod said:
Nothing saggy or dangerous about any of our vehicles. Just driven with due care and attention to the road surface.
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Indeed. I don’t think I have had to ever replace a suspension part on any car I have owned. Certainly not in the last 15 years. Current car will be 20 years old in April so I can only assume that llp must drive with as much empathy as he displays here...
 
Rapscallion said:
Indeed. I don’t think I have had to ever replace a suspension part on any car I have owned. Certainly not in the last 15 years. Current car will be 20 years old in April so I can only assume that llp must drive with as much empathy as he displays here...
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You don't know much about cars do you.
 
nilagin said:
You don't know much about cars do you.
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I think that's an excellent reply - anyone who thinks their suspension is ok after 20 yes with no parts being replaced clearly has no interest in driving or finesse to feel how crap the suspension on their car has become.
 
nilagin said:
You don't know much about cars do you.
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DK602 said:
I think that's an excellent reply - anyone who thinks their suspension is ok after 20 yes with no parts being replaced clearly has no interest in driving or finesse to feel how crap the suspension on their car has become.
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I haven't owned the car for 20 years....

edited to add
I dont treat public roads as race tracks, anticipate what is in front and generally drive in a very relaxed manner. Shock absorbers should last for a decade when driven sympathetically and most other suspension parts almost as long. Perhaps when i get into my later middle ages i shall get mid life crises and feel the need to pretend i am Ayrton Schumacher, but until then i shall leave the wannabe F1 driver syndrome to the others on this thread...
Back to the matter raised - for LLP to have had to spend 'a fortune' on suspension shows only one thing, he has not a clue how to drive.
 
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Rapscallion said:
I haven't owned the car for 20 years....

edited to add
I dont treat public roads as race tracks, anticipate what is in front and generally drive in a very relaxed manner. Shock absorbers should last for a decade when driven sympathetically and most other suspension parts almost as long. Perhaps when i get into my later middle ages i shall get mid life crises and feel the need to pretend i am Ayrton Schumacher, but until then i shall leave the wannabe F1 driver syndrome to the others on this thread...
Back to the matter raised - for LLP to have had to spend 'a fortune' on suspension shows only one thing, he has not a clue how to drive.
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Firstly average life of a shock absorber before it shows signs of starting to fail is just 5yrs or 60k miles. If the car is used very little or on predominantly smooth roads regardless of the speed the shock absorbers can last up to 10yrs or around 80k-100k miles.
Secondly you said you have had the car 15yrs out of its 20yrs but you don't think you have had to replace any suspension on a car, yet now you are saying that shock absorbers should last 10yrs and other suspension components should last almost as long if the vehicle is driven sympathetically. So you must have spent money on suspension, if not, you must be driving around at 10mph, slowing to 2mph for speed bumps, driven on perfectly straight roads, never having driven around a bend, been fortunate enough to never have encountered a single pothole or crack in the road. Never put a car in for an MOT in the last 15yrs, because the shaking rig will give the suspension a very harsh shake to show up signs of wear and failure, or you just do about 1k miles per year.
Like I said, you know very little about cars.
 
nilagin said:
I can't conveniently forget what wasn't mentioned in the original statement. The original statement was for new roads and road repairs and that is the figure I quoted.
VED and fuel aren't the only sources of revenue the government gets from motorists. There is the revenue on insurance, breakdown cover, vehicle maintenance and repairs, aftermarket modifications, use of a car wash, buying a jetwash and shampoos, polishes and waxes if you wish to clean the car yourself. All adds onto the revenue raised from motorists.
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Aftermarket modifications. Is that boy racer stripes and plastic skirts...?

Oh, and edited to add:

If you take account of all these extra costs on both sides, how does that work out?
 
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Pound Coin said:
Aftermarket modifications. Is that boy racer stripes and plastic skirts...?
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It can be anything, car mats, mud flaps, stereo, sat nav, quite an extensive list if you actually put your mind to it.
 
nilagin said:
It can be anything, car mats, mud flaps, stereo, sat nav, quite an extensive list if you actually put your mind to it.
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All essential equipment for getting from A to B...

(apart from the Sat Nav, which gets you there, I suppose.)
 
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Rapscallion said:
I haven't owned the car for 20 years....

edited to add
I dont treat public roads as race tracks, anticipate what is in front and generally drive in a very relaxed manner. Shock absorbers should last for a decade when driven sympathetically and most other suspension parts almost as long. Perhaps when i get into my later middle ages i shall get mid life crises and feel the need to pretend i am Ayrton Schumacher, but until then i shall leave the wannabe F1 driver syndrome to the others on this thread...
Back to the matter raised - for LLP to have had to spend 'a fortune' on suspension shows only one thing, he has not a clue how to drive.
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The first quote was completely correct 'You don't know much about cars do you' I'd love to know how you can drive a shock absorber 'sympathetically'?

Someone may ask you 'why not just use your phone camera to take pictures?' - it's pretty much the same as what you are saying about cars!
 
Pound Coin said:
All essential equipment for getting from A to B...

(apart from the Sat Nav, which gets you there, I suppose.)
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Some don't see a car as 'just' a method of getting from A-B.

Some see photography as just taking a picture.
 
So, it seems your attachment to cars is a societal outlier, probably not the best starting point when talking about future car use?
 
Pound Coin said:
So, it seems your attachment to cars is a societal outlier, probably not the best starting point when talking about future car use?
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There's approximately 32.5million cars currently in the UK, very little is likely to change in terms of car use any time soon.
 
Pound Coin said:
So, it seems your attachment to cars is a societal outlier, probably not the best starting point when talking about future car use?
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You are correct - it's probably not worth you commenting any further if you think people only own cars for A-B transport.
I didn't think there was anyone daft enough to not realise most people take pride in the cars they own and most like to make them slightly individual.
Best go back to Henry Ford's Model T that you can have in any colour as long as it's black.
 
DK602 said:
I didn't think there was anyone daft enough to not realise most people take pride in the cars they own...
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I'm not sure there's any proof that "most" is valid. I've noticed that a large proportion of cars on the road are quite travel worn. That suggests to me that many people see them as tools. It would be interesting to see what research the car industry has carried out on the subject.

Cars parked in Exmouth P1012154.JPG
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
I'm not sure there's any proof that "most" is valid. I've noticed that a large proportion of cars on the road are quite travel worn. That suggests to me that many people see them as tools. It would be interesting to see what research the car industry has carried out on the subject.

View attachment 266844
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If most people just saw a car as a tool to get from A to B, then most people would just buy the base models of each car. The fact that the majority of models sold of each car are the high end or sports models, would indicate that most people do care more about their cars than you think. After all a car will likely be the 2nd most expensive purchase most people will make.
The UK automotive aftermarket business has an annual turnover of £21.1Bn, employs over 345k people and contributes £12.2Bn yearly to the UK economy. Those are fairly big numbers if the majority of motorists just see their car as a tool.
 
The fact that people don't all choose the cheapest car available indicates there are some who care enough to buy premium brands & higher spec cars as Neil suggests.

In my 50 years motoring I have had to replace steering ball joints a couple of times, shock absorbers twice, replace leaf springs once and coil springs twice. My way of avoiding more suspension repairs is to change cars regularly.

A quick Google indicates suspension problems result in 13% of MOT failures, second only to lightbulbs......
 
Rapscallion said:
I haven't owned the car for 20 years....
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DK602 said:
The first quote was completely correct 'You don't know much about cars do you' I'd love to know how you can drive a shock absorber 'sympathetically'?

Someone may ask you 'why not just use your phone camera to take pictures?' - it's pretty much the same as what you are saying about cars!
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I would have thought given your picture you may have been aware of the term "mechanical sympathy". I have owned 250cc karts and driven everything from aforementioned karts to rally cars cars to heavy plant. So i do have some understanding of how machinery should be used and driven without running up repair bills.
If you wish some links on the subject of mechanical sympathy feel free to read the below.

https://wa.aws.amazon.com/wat.concept.mechanical-sympathy.en.html
https://www.autosport.com/performance/feature/8318/how-mechanical-sympathy-improves-speed
https://embedded.fm/blog/2016/4/18/on-mechanincal-sympathy

Also a quote commonly attributed to Jackie Stewart
You don't have to be an engineer to be be a racing driver, but you do have to have Mechanical Sympathy.

So yes, you certainly can by sympathetic to a shock absorber. In fact it is probably the the single part of the car that can be shown the most mechanical sympathy by the driver. The fact that you are unaware of the concept suggests it is you who does not understand driving. Perhaps also explains why some here have to spend a fortune on them and others don't understand how a shock absorber can last many years.
 
Rapscallion said:
No, i didn't. Please see above.
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Ok I had misread your post.
Rapscallion said:
Indeed. I don’t think I have had to ever replace a suspension part on any car I have owned. Certainly not in the last 15 years. Current car will be 20 years old in April so I can only assume that llp must drive with as much empathy as he displays here...
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You "think" you haven't ever had to replace a suspension part on any car, how can you not no for sure?
Reading between the lines it looks like you could just as easily replaced the whole car before needing to replace any suspension components.
A car can still be driven fast with mechanical sympathy, yet you think otherwise. Indeed an odd notion for someone who has driven rally cars and karts.
Also car tyres have different side wall ratios. A 70 series tyre will help the suspension shock loading more than a 60, 55, 40 etc. series tyre.
Someone who says they have had some sort of motorsport experience and drives with mechanical sympathy would know all this and not make daft assumptions, that someone who has had to spend money on suspension repairs drives badly.

I reiterate, you know very little about cars.
 
nilagin said:
Ok I had misread your post.

You "think" you haven't ever had to replace a suspension part on any car, how can you not no for sure?
Reading between the lines it looks like you could just as easily replaced the whole car before needing to replace any suspension components.
A car can still be driven fast with mechanical sympathy, yet you think otherwise. Indeed an odd notion for someone who has driven rally cars and karts.
Also car tyres have different side wall ratios. A 70 series tyre will help the suspension shock loading more than a 60, 55, 40 etc. series tyre.
Someone who says they have had some sort of motorsport experience and drives with mechanical sympathy would know all this and not make daft assumptions, that someone who has had to spend money on suspension repairs drives badly.

I reiterate, you know very little about cars.
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It’s not that someone has had to spend money that indicates they drive badly, it’s that someone has spent“a fortune in suspension repairs”.
 
Rapscallion said:
It’s not that someone has had to spend money that indicates they drive badly, it’s that someone has spent“a fortune in suspension repairs”.
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Well for a start it depends on how much a pair of shock absorbers or other components will be for the individual car. Then there is the condition of the roads used, if they are full of potholes or uneven, at this time of year they will only get worse, even just cracks or where roads are surfaced in sections all add to suspension wear, none of which is the fault of the driver Also as I have already mentioned, there are the tyres, lower profile tyres, provide less of a cushioning to ride than a higher profile tyre, the suspension of the car on lower profile tyres will be doing more of the work than a car on higher profile tyres, even though the lower profiled cars suspension will likely be updated. Also if he is transporting alot of heavy equipment in his car, he should have the tyres at a higher pressure, which again will mean it will be harder on the suspension.
If you are happy to assume that it is the way he drives that wears his suspension, that is entirely up to you. Perhaps we should assume that for you to never having had to replace a suspension component on a car that any or a combination of the following is true (some of which have already been mentioned).
1. You do very few miles per year.
2. You drive around on under inflated tyres and spend money replacing unevenly worn tyres instead.
3. All the roads you drive on are perfectly smooth, no cracks, joints, potholes, not even undulating. Oh and no speed bumps neither.
4. You don't have a car long enough for the suspension to fail
5. As you only think you haven't had any suspension replaced on a car, you don't actually know what the suspension components are, you have just paid to have repairs done, oblivious to what they actually were.
 
nilagin said:
The fact that the majority of models sold of each car are the high end or sports models
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Can you tell us where you got that from? I've had a scout around the web and haven't been able to find any information to support it. I'd be very interested to see the source material which leads to that conclusion.
 
Rapscallion said:
So yes, you certainly can by sympathetic to a shock absorber. In fact it is probably the the single part of the car that can be shown the most mechanical sympathy by the driver. The fact that you are unaware of the concept suggests it is you who does not understand driving. Perhaps also explains why some here have to spend a fortune on them and others don't understand how a shock absorber can last many years.
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That is complete rubbish that you have spouted TBH

Most dampers fitted to production cars are a twin tube design that are oil filled; this oil then flows through orifices in a valving system inside the damper and it is the restriction of flow that causes the damping effect.

The body where the oil is, is pressurised - it is the pressure the oil is under that stops cavitation as it flows through the orifices. Cavitation is the boiling of the fluid. (Fluids under pressure have a raised boiling point)

To maintain the pressure the damper has a plastic sack in it filled with a gas - again we know gas is compressible so this expands and contracts as the oil moves between the two reservoirs.

Over time the plastic that holds the gas degrades and the gas escapes. This results in a pressure loss inside the damper causing cavitation of the oil and reduced efficiency in the damping, in turn making the car less safe.

Further to this; the oil in the dampers also degrades just like your engine oil and the seals perish.

Unless you are jumping over humped back bridges then driving style has no effect on damper life.

A damper works in a low speed shaft movement and a high speed shaft movement. The low speed shaft movement is when the damper rod moves slowly in and out of the damper body (Less than 2"/sec velocity) - this is what the driver feels when they are cornering/braking/accelerating; no matter how hard you drive you will never damage a damper whilst in its low speed range.
The high speed damping is to control the wheel (unsprung weight) when it hits a pot hole or some type of curb. It really doesn't matter how fast you are driving, the speed the damper shaft moves in it's high speed range is pretty much the same at 30mph or 80mph. It is these fast damper movements of hitting potholes that can cause the damper to 'bottom out' and bend a rod/damage the valving. Poorer road conditions, not driving cause dampers to fail prematurely; no matter how good you are at driving avoiding pot holes can become impossible or dangerous as you swerve to avoid them.

If you would like me to explain more about dampers and the different types then I certainly can - It is an area I am quite specialised in which is why I raised the point initially.
 
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AndrewFlannigan said:
Can you tell us where you got that from? I've had a scout around the web and haven't been able to find any information to support it. I'd be very interested to see the source material which leads to that conclusion.
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Yes, evidence for that assertion would be good.

I think the problem is that when you are obsessed with performance cars, that’s what you see on the road. you don’t see the ordinary cars driven by people that just want to get from A to B. You see the cars driven by people for whom aftermarket accessories are important.

Car manufacturers advertise the top models because they know that people buy up to a dream. Advertise the top models, sell more of the base ones.
 
Pound Coin said:
Yes, evidence for that assertion would be good.

I think the problem is that when you are obsessed with performance cars, that’s what you see on the road. you don’t see the ordinary cars driven by people that just want to get from A to B. You see the cars driven by people for whom aftermarket accessories are important.

Car manufacturers advertise the top models because they know that people buy up to a dream. Advertise the top models, sell more of the base ones.
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Nope - it's definitely the other way round - people who have no interest in cars don't see the pleasure others get from ownership. Car dealerships will often only stock one base model so they can advertise a price as 'starting from £xxxx'; this 'lures people in' with the cheap option but they will invariable add to the trim level.

When was the last time you got into a car with no onboard entertainment, no headrests, steel wheels etc (although I do wonder if you have anything to do with those sinful objects?) over the years the manufacturers have continued to expand the options range.

Further to this when they 'extend' the model life of a car they produce higher spec models with upgraded trim to assist sales - maybe you should tell them they've got it all wrong?

Then look at TV programmes like Top Gear - massive viewing figures on prime time TV - all because people are interested in going from A-B?

Are cars getting slower over the years? Of course they aren't - manufacturers know improved performance sells cars - 'Race cars on a Sunday sell them on the Monday' is a very old addage and why manufacturers spend billions on racing.

Apart from the odd Prius driver most can name an F1 star and a leading F1 manufacturer.
 
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Pound Coin said:
I think the problem is that when you are obsessed with performance cars, that’s what you see on the road. you don’t see the ordinary cars driven by people that just want to get from A to B. You see the cars driven by people for whom aftermarket accessories are important.
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And there we have it, the opinion of someone who has no appreciation of a car and think of it just being a tool for getting from A to B. You have no idea of how an enthusiastic car owner feels about cars. I drive a performance model, it doesn't mean I don't notice the lower models and it certainly doesn't mean I don't appreciate them either. I have even owned entry level models in the past. So I do in fact notice all cars, people interested in cars do that. I drive down the road, I see many cars and I take it all in, I will see things that you would probably never notice. You will just see a car, unless there is a big difference in the styling of the car, the only difference you are likely to notice will be colour. I can easily pick out the base model A to B tools and believe me they are a very rare sight on UK roads.
For most people, after market accessories are just a way of further personalizing their cars, or adding something they want for their car that it doesn't already have. It isn't all about adding your own spoilers and side skirts etc.
 
nilagin said:
And there we have it, the opinion of someone who has no appreciation of a car and think of it just being a tool for getting from A to B. You have no idea of how an enthusiastic car owner feels about cars. I drive a performance model, it doesn't mean I don't notice the lower models and it certainly doesn't mean I don't appreciate them either. I have even owned entry level models in the past. So I do in fact notice all cars, people interested in cars do that. I drive down the road, I see many cars and I take it all in, I will see things that you would probably never notice. You will just see a car, unless there is a big difference in the styling of the car, the only difference you are likely to notice will be colour. I can easily pick out the base model A to B tools and believe me they are a very rare sight on UK roads.
For most people, after market accessories are just a way of further personalizing their cars, or adding something they want for their car that it doesn't already have. It isn't all about adding your own spoilers and side skirts etc.
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thank you for confirming your extreme bias.
 
DK602 said:
Nope - it's definitely the other way round - people who have no interest in cars don't see the pleasure others get from ownership. Car dealerships will often only stock one base model so they can advertise a price as 'starting from £xxxx'; this 'lures people in' with the cheap option but they will invariable add to the trim level.

When was the last time you got into a car with no onboard entertainment, no headrests, steel wheels etc (although I do wonder if you have anything to do with those sinful objects?) over the years the manufacturers have continued to expand the options range.

Further to this when they 'extend' the model life of a car they produce higher spec models with upgraded trim to assist sales - maybe you should tell them they've got it all wrong?

Then look at TV programmes like Top Gear - massive viewing figures on prime time TV - all because people are interested in going from A-B?

Are cars getting slower over the years? Of course they aren't - manufacturers know improved performance sells cars - 'Race cars on a Sunday sell them on the Monday' is a very old addage and why manufacturers spend billions on racing.

Apart from the odd Prius driver most can name an F1 star and a leading F1 manufacturer.
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you seem to be saying that demand created by by car companies is good. You need to think a bit more.
 
Pound Coin said:
thank you for confirming your extreme bias.
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No I was confirming your extreme bias. What I also confirmed is what are the most popular car models people buy.
I'll make it easy for you. The UK's top selling car for 10 consecutive years is the Fiesta. The base models are the Style and Trend, the most popular models sold are Zetec S, ST- Line, ST and Titanium. If I told you to go out a spot 10 of the more popular models, I reckon it would take you less than 1hr. If I told you to go out and spot just one Trend or Style variant and stay out until you find one, i would advise you to take some money, food, a sleeping bag, a phone to keep in touch with family, if you work, book all of this years holiday, possibly next years too if to add on top if they will let you, even be prepared to resign unless they don't mind you taking a year or so out, make sure you have some family photos too, because believe me, you will have forgotten what they looked like before you are able to return home.
 
Pound Coin said:
you seem to be saying that demand created by by car companies is good. You need to think a bit more.
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Why would it be a bad thing?
The car industry overall is probably the biggest employer in the UK and lots of other countries too. It includes manufacturing, sales, servicing, repairs, testing, development, insurance, finance etc. etc.
 
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