Bloody Bird Photography is annoying

BillN_33

BillN_33

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Name
Bill
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I have invested in Nikon equipment
D750, D700, D7100, D300
600mm f4, (latest before VR), 300mm f2.8VR, 300mm f4
x 1.4 and x 2 TC
other Nikons lens, 70 200mm f2.8VR and 105mm f2.8 VR and more and more

Recently been looking at a "pro" bird site

they all use the 1DX and the latest Mk ll 500mm and 600mm IS Canon lens with the Canon TC's
Not that I will ever be anywhere near their level …….. but aspirations can take over

I thought that adding the D750 would help to solve the problem and maybe the new 300mm f4PF + TC would help with BIF ………. but looking at the Canon range of long lens just "saddens" me ……. I cannot "jump" ship as I would need maybe £15k+ …………… Bird photography is just a "b****r"

Just a light hearted "rant" this bright morning
 
Big Andy said:
Right person, right place, right time are all far more important than the label on the box. But then again I shoot Canon. :p
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That's always the case and include conditions - but for Birds you do need the best equipment you can afford to move up in levels and a 500mm or 600mm will make a lot of difference to getting a crop able image or not …….. versus the 70 300mm VR ……. which I started with and still use in certain conditions …… it is a very good lens for the money
 
twhite87 said:
How about these for a bit of inspiration then? All taken with the D750. Search on Flickr for camera finder and then take a look. There's some impressive photos with very minimalistic equipment.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/95599258@N06/17567031494/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/annakwa/16470433854/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/128519067@N04/16110657374/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/elbowes/16538332517/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/markosaari/15498944787/
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That first link is mine Tim, It was an "almost" shot I posted in the bird section. Not to the standard of the other pics, but with a little more practise I could probably nail it if the GSW ever comes back!

We all have these thoughts Bill when you see something produced by somebody else. With the gear you have got I cant see the Canons producing any better when the shot is nailed as proved by some of the pics that Tim has posted. The Crested Lark has some excellent detail as do the others apart from mine.
 
minnnt said:
*gets the popcorn*

It's the photographer, not the gear. You have some of the best equipment available so there shouldn't really be any excuses with regards to the gear.
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I'm not making excuses ……. It is a light heart early morning rant as I eat my Shredded Wheat

I am quite happy, for the time being, with what the D750 and Nikon 600mm f4 produces
 
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Swanseajack said:
That first link is mine Tim, It was an "almost" shot I posted in the bird section. Not to the standard of the other pics, but with a little more practise I could probably nail it if the GSW ever comes back!

We all have these thoughts Bill when you see something produced by somebody else. With the gear you have got I cant see the Canons producing any better when the shot is nailed as proved by some of the pics that Tim has posted. The Crested Lark has some excellent detail as do the others apart from mine.
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I still think it's a pretty good shot of a bird in flight considering how fast these fly. :)
 
twhite87 said:
I still think it's a pretty good shot of a bird in flight considering how fast these fly. :)
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Of course it is always the man behind the lens that produces the image ……. that's a given and does not need constantly to be repeated as some feel the need to ……. it's just a basic requirement

IMHO all Bird images are relative depending on what you compare them to

I can give you lots of site examples, but here's a couple taken at random

http://www.miroslav-photography.com/portfolio/

http://amatteroflight.com/gallery2/v/ausbirds/
 
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Steve-T said:
You are not comparing like for like with the 1DX you need to compare it with the D4S, so if you think gear is the issue buy one., and it's also not true that all wildlife pro's use Canon. Many, maybe most do but some of the top ones are sponsored.

Here is a pro who uses Nikon. I can't see any lacking due to not having Canon :)
http://www.craigjoneswildlifephotography.co.uk/
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Some of you guys do take things seriously - I do not think that gear is an issue so why should I go out and buy a D4S ……. if I thought that I needed a D4S I would certainly buy one …….. just as if I thought that I need a complete new set of Canon gear I would go out and buy it

look at the reports, there is little difference between the D4S and the D750, apart from buffer speed

Read the "spirit" of my original posting and don't take up this Canon v Nikon adversity attitude

another example of a posting on this forum that fails to understand the meaning … I've now finished my Shredded Wheat

Is it all worth it ……. as someone said to me ……. "it's just this forum and some of them on it"

onto my yogurt and prunes ……. it looks like I'll need them
 
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minnnt said:
If you know it's the person behind the camera then why are you jabbering on about all the people on that site using Canons? Wasn't a Canon forum was it? :D
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no

prunes finished ……. onto my final cup of tea .. then I can clean my teeth and shower
 
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Having used both brands with big and small lenses and a range of bodies over time, I can 110% say each are good in their own way, Dynamic range on the Nikon's is simply fantastic compared to Canons poor overall dynamic range, saying that the Canons do overall win with AF. Its horses for courses, if you had a D4s & 600mm f/4 and a 1Dx & 600mm f/4 either setup would be fantastic. Neither is better than the other.
 
Joeturner11 said:
Having used both brands with big and small lenses and a range of bodies over time, I can 110% say each are good in their own way, Dynamic range on the Nikon's is simply fantastic compared to Canons poor overall dynamic range, saying that the Canons do overall win with AF. Its horses for courses, if you had a D4s & 600mm f/4 and a 1Dx & 600mm f/4 either setup would be fantastic. Neither is better than the other.
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I can tend to agree for normal use ………. but travelling with the new generation Canon's is a little easier

Did you change from Nikon to Canon Joe because of the bodies or lens ………… I know that you were some kind of Nikon "pro" user, so I was surprised when you recently sold all your Nikon gear and moved to Canon

There's a Mk iv on here and a 400mm that are tempting me ……. as I would like a BIF set up …….. but I have still to try the 300PF
 
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BillN_33 said:
I can tend to agree for normal use ………. but travelling with the new generation Canon's is a little easier

Did you change from Nikon to Canon Joe because of the bodies or lens ………… I know that you were some kind of Nikon "pro" user, so I was surprised when you recently sold all your Nikon gear and moved to Canon

There's a Mk iv on here and a 400mm that are tempting me ……. as I would like a BIF set up …….. but I have still to try the 300PF
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Bit of both mate, Bodies & lens, I didn't really feel the Nikon lineup offered anything against the 7D mark II & I got a really nice deal with some kit so I thought the jump was a good one, unexpected jump I must say but if you were in my shoes I'm sure you would have done the same with the deals I got. For wildlife mate if you are going to look at the 1DIV I would just go with a 7D Mark II instead as for wildlife it will be a better camera, better focusing unit and more modern with a new 20mp sensor.
 
BillN_33 said:
Some of you guys do take things seriously - I do not think that gear is an issue so why should I go out and buy a D4S ……. if I thought that I needed a D4S I would certainly buy one …….. just as if I thought that I need a complete new set of Canon gear I would go out and buy it

look at the reports, there is little difference between the D4S and the D750, apart from buffer speed

Read the "spirit" of my original posting and don't take up this Canon v Nikon adversity attitude

another example of a posting on this forum that fails to understand the meaning … I've now finished my Shredded Wheat

Is it all worth it ……. as someone said to me ……. "it's just this forum and some of them on it"

onto my yogurt and prunes ……. it looks like I'll need them
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Well, I may have missed the 'spirit' of your post but it was you who started comparing with the top of the range Canon so I was merely comparing like for like.
I have no personal preference either way but as you have quite a collection of bodies adding a D4S would no go amiss ;)
 
Steve-T said:
Well, I may have missed the 'spirit' of your post but it was you who started comparing with the top of the range Canon so I was merely comparing like for like.
I have no personal preference either way but as you have quite a collection of bodies adding a D4S would no go amiss ;)
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Thanks Steve

I think that the D4S is now past it's best - Nikon have confused us all with the D750, D810 …….. and no replacement for their top model and no "pro" DX body

so as usual I am waiting but a new D750 is half the price of a used D4S and looking at the stats, there is little to chose for birding unless you really "spray and pray"
 
minnnt said:
It's the photographer, not the gear.
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Whilst I'd like to fully agree with you, I can't.... it's just not that straight forward.

I took a shot at about 9pm of a barn owl in flight, in order to even see it in the frame, my aged 7D was at 1/125, ISO 3200, f5.6 and @ 800mm... the result, a white(ish) blur in a sea of noise and dead pixels :D
Compare that to another image recently posted up from a 1Dx on a 600f4 + 1.4tc (820mm f5.6), and the picture was sharp as you like and not a sign of noise anywhere... it was taken at about the same sort of time of the night.

...And so goes my downward spiral into 'upgrading' my kit :banghead:
 
BillN_33 said:
Thanks Steve

I think that the D4S is now past it's best - Nikon have confused us all with the D750, D810 …….. and no replacement for their top model and no "pro" DX body

so as usual I am waiting but a new D750 is half the price of a used D4S and looking at the stats, there is little to chose for birding unless you really "spray and pray"
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Well you could always wait for the D5 ;)
 
Steve-T said:
Well you could always wait for the D5 ;)
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what can they add apart from a bigger sensor whilst maintaining the buffer speed ……. I'm also retired, approaching 70 years old and may as well spend my dosh now as give it to the kids or country

The lens or lenses are what matters for birds ….. the new size, weight and construction of the Nikon 300PF is the way forward for Nikon ……. lets see if they push it forward into the 400, 500 and 600 …….. but they will be one "hell" of a price I suspect
 
RacingSnake said:
Whilst I'd like to fully agree with you, I can't.... it's just not that straight forward.

I took a shot at about 9pm of a barn owl in flight, in order to even see it in the frame, my aged 7D was at 1/125, ISO 3200, f5.6 and @ 800mm... the result, a white(ish) blur in a sea of noise and dead pixels :D
Compare that to another image recently posted up from a 1Dx on a 600f4 + 1.4tc (820mm f5.6), and the picture was sharp as you like and not a sign of noise anywhere... it was taken at about the same sort of time of the night.

...And so goes my downward spiral into 'upgrading' my kit :banghead:
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But we're not comparing an aged aps-c camera. Bill is comparing a D750 which has been hailed as the FF pound for pound king against the top of the line Canon FF offering.

Perhaps i should have worded it better. :rolleyes:
 
BillN_33 said:
what can they add apart from a bigger sensor whilst maintaining the buffer speed ……. I'm also retired, approaching 70 years old and may as well spend my dosh now as give it to the kids or country

The lens or lenses are what matters for birds ….. the new size, weight and construction of the Nikon 300PF is the way forward for Nikon ……. lets see if they push it forward into the 400, 500 and 600 …….. but they will be one "hell" of a price I suspect
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I think if you have the cash, why the hell not! Even just to find out if the grass is greener for your requirements.
 
BillN_33 said:
what can they add apart from a bigger sensor whilst maintaining the buffer speed ……. I'm also retired, approaching 70 years old and may as well spend my dosh now as give it to the kids or country

The lens or lenses are what matters for birds ….. the new size, weight and construction of the Nikon 300PF is the way forward for Nikon ……. lets see if they push it forward into the 400, 500 and 600 …….. but they will be one "hell" of a price I suspect
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They will push it in the large lens lineup in due course, just like they did with the Nikon 400mm f/2.8 FL & 800mm f/5.6 FL, I remember speaking to a Nikon guy at the Photography show on the stand and they said the light weight technology will be introduced into the new generation of nikon lenses, its only a matter of time now as they have put it in the top lenses.
 
Joeturner11 said:
Bit of both mate, Bodies & lens, I didn't really feel the Nikon lineup offered anything against the 7D mark II & I got a really nice deal with some kit so I thought the jump was a good one, unexpected jump I must say but if you were in my shoes I'm sure you would have done the same with the deals I got. For wildlife mate if you are going to look at the 1DIV I would just go with a 7D Mark II instead as for wildlife it will be a better camera, better focusing unit and more modern with a new 20mp sensor.
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The 7d mkii better than the 1dmkiv for wildlife I very much doubt it ,the 1Dmkiv is a classic and produces fantastic results when mastered in the right hands ,I have tried the 7d mii and lets say I will continue to use my 1d mkiv and it will be a long time before I replace it ....IMHO
 
den said:
The 7d mkii better than the 1dmkiv for wildlife I very much doubt it ,the 1Dmkiv is a classic and produces fantastic results when mastered in the right hands ,I have tried the 7d mii and lets say I will continue to use my 1d mkiv and it will be a long time before I replace it ....IMHO
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Depends what you want from your camera and the setup your looking to go for, As you own a 1DIV there would be no point going to the 7D Mark II, in Bill's case he is possibly looking at getting a body for wildlife and mentioned the 1DIV, I suggested the 7D Mark II to him as not only is it cheaper it will also be better for birds in flight for him. Firstly the 1.6x crop of the sensor gives a little more reach than the 1.3x in the 1DIV. He also mentioned going to a setup that is less weight with the 7D Mark II lighter by 30% less than the 1DIV along with having 65 cross type focus points compared to the 39 cross types of the 1DIV, along with this the 7D Mark II captures slightly more than 20% detail in the images than the 1DIV with its sensor being just over 4mp more, and the 7D II does slightly have a larger viewfinder compared to the 1DIV. Then 1DIV Will slightly beat the 7D Mark II on ISO but considering he will be using it for birds in flight light mainly won't be a issue as it will be mostly in open areas where light is amble. Both the 7D mark II & 1D IV are fantastic pieces of equipment I have used one in the past and its a lovely feel in your hands just like the 1Dx I have and any 1D series camera compared to what the 7D feels in your hands (a lot better with grip), either way Bill would be happy with either, but considering his main point on having a light weight setup, the 7D aids that criteria more for his uses.
 
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For price reach and weight the 7d MKII is a massive improvement on the MKI and I have used both ,I do know some people that have looked at the 1dmkiv or 7dmkii cant argue with price especially for BIF and the AF is very good in fact its not far away from the mkiv but I am used to the mkiv and some cameras do take a while to master ,some people change cameras before changing settings as the 7d mki is still a cracking camera when you get everything right especially when used with a true ISO range ,if I was new to Bird photography I would go with the 7d mkii
 
stumeech said:
I just had a look at your Flickr account, Bill - seems you are doing pretty good to me, and alot better than I can manage when it comes to our feathered friends.
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Thanks Stu, really appreciated - I think that the new Canon 600mm IS ll is in a different league for sharpness ESPECIALLY with the x 2 Canon TC
and I think that you can hand hold the 400mm and 500mm lens for a short time

once you get more into birding you find that even 600mm or 600mm x a crop sensor is just NOT ENOUGH in many static situations
 
Joeturner11 said:
Bit of both mate, Bodies & lens, I didn't really feel the Nikon lineup offered anything against the 7D mark II & I got a really nice deal with some kit so I thought the jump was a good one, unexpected jump I must say but if you were in my shoes I'm sure you would have done the same with the deals I got. For wildlife mate if you are going to look at the 1DIV I would just go with a 7D Mark II instead as for wildlife it will be a better camera, better focusing unit and more modern with a new 20mp sensor.
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den said:
The 7d mkii better than the 1dmkiv for wildlife I very much doubt it ,the 1Dmkiv is a classic and produces fantastic results when mastered in the right hands ,I have tried the 7d mii and lets say I will continue to use my 1d mkiv and it will be a long time before I replace it ....IMHO
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Looking at the 7Dii thread it seems as if Gaz is getting a little peed off with the performance of the 7Dii and is considering dumping it. As Gaz does a lot of wildlife I cant see Bill be happy with a 7Dii for long.
 
Swanseajack said:
Looking at the 7Dii thread it seems as if Gaz is getting a little peed off with the performance of the 7Dii and is considering dumping it. As Gaz does a lot of wildlife I cant see Bill be happy with a 7Dii for long.
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I use the 7D mark II for professional wildlife uses and so does Glenn Bartley (http://www.glennbartley.com) and many other photographers I know. Nothing at all wrong with the camera, one of the best I have ever used. If you customise the AF settings and the rest correctly and know how to get the best out of it you can't go wrong. This was my first shot with the camera, sorry about the compression this forum isn't the best for showing the true IQ.

p1214921410-4.jpg
 
[QUOTE="Joeturner11, post: 6899584, member: 55756"..... If you customise the AF settings and the rest correctly and know how to get the best out of it you can't go wrong.
[/QUOTE]

That's a very bold statement, Joe....are you saying that all problems are down to user error?

Bob
 
Canon Bob said:
[QUOTE="Joeturner11, post: 6899584, member: 55756"..... If you customise the AF settings and the rest correctly and know how to get the best out of it you can't go wrong.
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That's a very bold statement, Joe....are you saying that all problems are down to user error?

Bob[/QUOTE]

I'm not saying all problems are down to 'user error' BUT during my time testing the 7D2 I have found customising the 7D2 case modes from the default cases gives FAR better results with the focusing, will be including all this and customised case modes I have changed and used in my upcoming review.
 
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Birding is one area where you do need good kit, but nowhere near £15k's worth. 7D2 and one of the new Tamron or Sigma 150-600s for under £3k total is extremely capable in the right hands - with good understanding of optimum AF set-up, and good camera skills.

Rather more important is field craft, and patience - and lots of both. But having invested all that time and effort, the temptation to buy ever more expensive kit is an easy trap to fall into, but it's really optional.
 
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HoppyUK said:
Birding is one area where you do need good kit, but nowhere near £15k's worth. 7D2 and one of the new Tamron or Sigma 150-600s for under £3k total is extremely capable in the right hands - with good understanding of optimum AF set-up, and good camera skills.

Rather more important is field craft, and patience. Having invested all that time and effort, the temptation to buy ever more expensive kit is an easy trap to fall into, but it's really optional.
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Totaly agree
 
HoppyUK said:
Rather more important is field craft, and patience.
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again the old "pearls of wisdom" keep coming out

again this is stating the obvious to someone who has spent time taking more than the odd bird shot ….. which are all the respondents on this thread
 
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Joeturner11 said:
I use the 7D mark II for professional wildlife uses and so does Glenn Bartley (http://www.glennbartley.com) and many other photographers I know. Nothing at all wrong with the camera, one of the best I have ever used. If you customise the AF settings and the rest correctly and know how to get the best out of it you can't go wrong. This was my first shot with the camera, sorry about the compression this forum isn't the best for showing the true IQ.

p1214921410-4.jpg
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Perhaps I didn't make myself clear. It seems as if the 7Dii isn't better than what Bill has, apart from the FPS. Gaz has been using the camera for 8 months or so and is possibly going to change back to a 5D3 or 1D which he also owns. I think with 8 months or so use, Gaz has a good idea on what settings to use, and his photographs I have seen back that up. The 1D he has is a better camera in his opinion and the 5D3 for low light and ISO.

Out of interest how long have you been using the camera for?

I'm not saying the 7D2 is a bad camera, but I would be suprised if Bill would see much of a difference apart from the FPS to what he has. The D750 he has is a very capable camera. The current model of the 1D range would possibly be a different story.
 
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Let get rid of the old "chestnuts" - which to suggest that they are not known is almost an insult to people on this thread

Bird photography

"It's the man behind the camera not the equipment that counts" - true … well not really - I'll take my Canon S95 next time I photograph sun birds

"Field craft and patience are more important than camera equipment" - true - well not really - my field craft in a hide is none existent, but my 600mm works wonders, I just point it at that bird and click, click, click

I'm sure that some more can be added


I want a perfect 600mm f4 VR lens that is very light and portable - accepts a x 2TC without loss of IQ and can be hand held …… with a 1.3 crop body, 24mp sensor and that's very good up to ISO 2000 ….. has a great AF tracking system, especially single point at f8, and can do 10 fps minimum

Maybe Sony?

How do I see that this is possible - Nikon D5+
Nikons new technology, incorporated into a precision 3 piece 300/600mm f4 lens that screws together like a portable rifle would, with drop in TCs
 
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