Border collie, 4 month old problems

Karl12347

Karl12347

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Karl
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Hi, we recently purchased a 4 month old border collie.

He is really clever, he is trained to sit, lay down give his paw and play dead.

However when I am playing with him on the floor he will suddenly start to bit my jeans or bit my hands. I have been trying the method of saying no, then putting him in the cage for 5 minutes for him to calm down but doesn't work, he jut starts again soon after. I have also tried walking away but he runs behind me pulling at my jeans etc. He also snaps at my if I take an item from him that he shouldn't have.

Anyone got and solutions to stop this behaviour?

It is not due to lack of exercise because we had him out most of the day.

Ideas would be appreciated.

Karl
 
What training methods are you using? At 4 months a collie will be very receptive to clicker training - positive reinforcement all the way. It focuses on ignoring negative behaviour, and promoting good and is really effective.
Also, have you tried distracting with a toy?
Was he 4 months when you got him? That is quite old, so the bad habits will need some training out

A
 
I'm no dog expert - and I may have misread your post - but if you are lying on your back when you are playing with him on the ground I believe that will give the wrong signals and you may not been seen as the boss. You probably know this already but that's all I have to offer! :)
Good luck, I'd love to have a dog - a few years at least before I can get one.:(
 
Headless Lois said:
What training methods are you using? At 4 months a collie will be very receptive to clicker training - positive reinforcement all the way. It focuses on ignoring negative behaviour, and promoting good and is really effective.
Also, have you tried distracting with a toy?
Was he 4 months when you got him? That is quite old, so the bad habits will need some training out

A
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We are using clicker training to teach him the tricks the stuff like play dead etc but don't use them constantly.

we got him a week ago from a couple that lived in a flat but we think they left him in the crate quite a lot and now we are taking him or 3 walks a day and training him.

We are going to take him to puppy socialisation classes tomorrow so that will probably help.
 
I would say use the clicker a LOT. Collies are so incredibly clever they need this stimulation. You can also have them running about all day and not tired, they need a lot of mental stimulation, so get toys that can be stuffed with food (kongs etc, treat balls) that they have to work at getting the stuff out of. When our dogs (german shepherd and retriever) were small we used to hide stuff like this so they would have to find. We would stuff a kong then freeze it, to make it harder to get food out.
You could actually give your pup all his meals this way, to make meals slower and more taxing mentally

A
 
akr said:
I'm no dog expert - and I may have misread your post - but if you are lying on your back when you are playing with him on the ground I believe that will give the wrong signals and you may not been seen as the boss. You probably know this already but that's all I have to offer! :)
Good luck, I'd love to have a dog - a few years at least before I can get one.:(
Click to expand...

No, I never lay down on my back but he could be sat on my knee having a stroke and then suddenly start nipping, then it gets into full on biting of the clothes with seconds etc even f I stop and tell him no.
 
to be honest, he's 4 months, he is a puppy, puppies mouth its how they learn bite inhibition, also at 4 months if you've had him out most of the day, he may well be over tired, a bit like a kid, when they're still growing as a rule of thumb its 5 minutes per month of age of exercise, you don't want to damage his joints.

For me you're on the right track, a loud ouch and put him in his crate for time out, or walk away whichever you choose to do, do it every time, and be consistent it won't happen over night, but it will come, good luck puppies are ace
 
I would consult a professional dog trainer. Collies can be highly strung dogs (I have worked with working dogs). I have personally been attacked by 2 collies on seperate occasions. One leaving me perminently scared!
 
I agree with what Liz said, and she knows!

I always did the loud ouch and stand up/walk away if mine did it when he was that age.

He is a pup and may be starting to loose his puppy teeth which wont be helping.
 
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You say you have tried the 'no' method, this method only really works if you know how to use your voice, it's all about the tone !

Other methods, yes their are loads, given the dogs age, this should be real easy to put right providing you work at it, correcting a dog is all about repetition, in fact all work/tricks or what ever you want to achieve is all about repetition and the key is sticking with one thing not trying others a few days later just because your dog is not getting it !!!

A simple way and the most effective is the 'check' !

Before I joined the fire service I was a dog handler for the MOD and this is the quickest method of getting a dog to stop doing something that it shouldn't !

Start by putting a lead on your dog with a good leather collar (not a chain, that's just wrong) and repeat what you have been doing, playing etc

When the play starts getting to a point where it's not playing or he is hurting you, give him a firm 'no' with eye contact, if he continues give him a much firmer, louder 'no' (not shouting though) and if it continues you then move onto 'make', with the lead kept low and taught, you pull it into you with a further firm 'no', this is called the 'ask, tell and make method' !

another way....

Start off with a quick play to the point BEFORE he gets rough, then stop the play, reward him with a treat and walk away, repeat the process later on but allow him to get to the point where he is rough and give him a firm 'no' then walk away WITHOUT A TREAT !!!

Repeat the above but use the before method more so he can associate GOOD = TREAT and BAD = BUGGER ALL !!!

He will get the above very quickly but may slip back into his old habits very quickly also

Hope the above makes sense but it is very hard to explain via writing lol

Regards

Paul
 
We had our border collie from 8 weeks, and we've always been very strict with her.

We played with her lots, but if she nipped we were strict with her. With a 6 year old we felt we needed to be. Lots of love and attention, however knowing who's Boss is certainly needed.

When playing with her if she nipped we'd yelp (OUCH!), we'd push her away, we'd tap her - just as she got in a pack puppy environment or with her Mother. Biting is natural for them to learn bite inhibition and until they know how hard and the reasons for it, they will do it.

Be firm with your dog, 16 weeks is still very young and they need lots of attention and care.

Have fun! :)
 
Ask your trainer at the class tomorrow, they will see the dog and can judge what is best.
It's very hard to give advice over the net without seeing the dog, as has been said it is still a puppy and sounds as though it's not had much previous training, wrong advice could cause more problems
 
I bet the previous owner got the puppy at an early age
Those first weeks with there mother and siblings are where they learn there manners
I have seen it plenty of times where people are keen to get there new puppy, and irresponsible sellers let them go too early
Hope you sort it out with the great advice above
 
Possibly a bit unorthodox, but I've had my collie from a very young age and he was the same around the 4 - 5 month mark.

Telling him no, putting him to bed, treat vs no treat method didn't work, he remained very bitey. Sometimes getting very painful and bad.

One day I got sick of it and had a wild idea - pack dogs will bite and pin each other down by the throat until submission as a sign of dominance. So I did it, I pinned him and got a firm bite grip on his throat ( enough to not loose grip but not enough to really hurt ) and kept him there until he stopped struggling, he's never bitten anyone since. Mouth full of fluff after wasnt nice either. May not be the recommended way to deal with it, but hey, at least it worked for me.
 
faddius said:
Possibly a bit unorthodox, but I've had my collie from a very young age and he was the same around the 4 - 5 month mark.

Telling him no, putting him to bed, treat vs no treat method didn't work, he remained very bitey. Sometimes getting very painful and bad.

One day I got sick of it and had a wild idea - pack dogs will bite and pin each other down by the throat until submission as a sign of dominance. So I did it, I pinned him and got a firm bite grip on his throat ( enough to not loose grip but not enough to really hurt ) and kept him there until he stopped struggling, he's never bitten anyone since. Mouth full of fluff after wasnt nice either. May not be the recommended way to deal with it, but hey, at least it worked for me.
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The alpha dog method works great however it runs the risk of, when he grows a pair and thinks he is up to the challenge, he may pick the same method to show he is boss again which you don't want if it happens to be a child !
 
Standard puppy behaviour, I think. All my Lab pups have done. Can be very sore with sharp puppy teeth. I just gave a loud stern NO and broke off from the game for a while. The pup will either get the message or eventually grow out of it. Just be sure you don't encourage it.
 
faddius said:
Possibly a bit unorthodox

One day I got sick of it and had a wild idea - pack dogs will bite and pin each other down by the throat until submission as a sign of dominance. So I did it, I pinned him and got a firm bite grip on his throat ( enough to not loose grip but not enough to really hurt ) and kept him there until he stopped struggling, he's never bitten anyone since. Mouth full of fluff after wasnt nice either. May not be the recommended way to deal with it, but hey, at least it worked for me.
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just a bit unorthodox, and proved to be very outdated, and i have to say i live with a pack of dogs, and never have i seen my top dog pin the others down, when they've been out of line, and if i'm honest i've seen more go the other way when they've been alpha rolled and actually bit first and ask questions later.

Personally i don't subscribe to dominating or pack theory, its all been proved to be out of date and a load of tosh, i want my dogs to do as they're told because they want to, not because they're scared of me, its taken me 4 years and 3 years respectively with 2 of mine, to put right the damage that was done by other people training through fear.
 
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Our collie is 8 monthsd old. they all do it when excitied. All you can do is be consistently say NO, in a sharp voice and try to ignore the behaviour.
Collie's need a LOT of excercise, and get bored very eisily too.
Reward good behaviour with lots of praise , and try not to pay to much heed to the bad stuff.
Wifey sometimes makes a big deal of the OUCH OUCH, if she gets nipped. trying to make a point that its can hurt.
Ours is getting better, but he is a lot of work.
 
Ive got a collie that is 6 years now - we got herwhen she was 3 years and virtually untrained - as you might imagine breaking her bad habbits and indoctrinating good ones took some effort , but it was worth it.

the real key is whatever you do it has to be consistent - so if you are going to reward good and ignore bad then you have to do it every time , and everyone has to react the same. If your wife makes a big deal of being nipped the dog may come to regard this as a fun reward of attention.

they need to know where they stand which is why consistency is important.

I used rolling over and pinning once to make a point about jumping up at the table in the early days but she learnt fast and it was never necessary again ( and with regard to the credibility of this the reson you don't see it much in a pack of dogs is because the heirachy is already established - you see mothers doing it with pups , and alpha dogs doing it with new betas regularly in wild dogs, wolves, foxes etc)
 
Slightly off track, our cat did/does the same thing, we were advised to use the Ouch/scream, walk away method, it is working but needs constant re-inforcing, especially at that age as like children they keep trying it on to see if they can get away with it. I'm sure a bright dog like a collie (my in Laws had one, only dog I'd ever consider, lovely animal) and he grew to be alovely soft mouthed dog, never snapped or bit once he grew out of it. He's also thinking you're playing if he bites your trousers and you walk off with him still attached, everything is a game at that age, he just needs to be educated.
He'll get there I am sure. Patience is a virtue.
He's probably also trying to establish his position in what is his 3rd 1(?) home and is confused why he keeps getting new "family".

Matt
 
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faddius said:
Possibly a bit unorthodox, but I've had my collie from a very young age and he was the same around the 4 - 5 month mark.

Telling him no, putting him to bed, treat vs no treat method didn't work, he remained very bitey. Sometimes getting very painful and bad.

One day I got sick of it and had a wild idea - pack dogs will bite and pin each other down by the throat until submission as a sign of dominance. So I did it, I pinned him and got a firm bite grip on his throat ( enough to not loose grip but not enough to really hurt ) and kept him there until he stopped struggling, he's never bitten anyone since. Mouth full of fluff after wasnt nice either. May not be the recommended way to deal with it, but hey, at least it worked for me.
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we did this with our greyhound (allbe it with just the scruff of the neck) and worked well for us, also did the same with an alsation we had to house-sit after it attacked the GF, this was a bit of a fight to get a 3 year old alsation down on the floor, but it worked :)
 
To be honest I think you could pick any of the brilliantly offered methods in the posts above as I have heard success stories time and again with them all.

I think whatever method you choose, then the key is to be utterly consistant.
You're the boss, and eventually the little guy will learn and respect that.
 
Just to let you all know, the trainer said the bet two method to use would be to get a news paper and roll it up and if he starts to bite hit he ground with the news paper and with a clear 'no' command. He said that the tone of voice changes and the bag of the paper will get him to learn quicker.

He also suggested spraying water in his face when he does it.

Trying the bang method first and see what happens.

Thanks or all the advice. I may try some of these other methods if they fail.

Karl
 
I've used Bitter Apple spray in the past. Not to spray the dog itself but spray some on your hand or clothes or whatever he is biting. Doesn't do them any harm they just don't like the taste.
 
Karl12347 said:
No, I never lay down on my back but he could be sat on my knee having a stroke and then suddenly start nipping, then it gets into full on biting of the clothes with seconds etc even f I stop and tell him no.
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Some very sound advice in this thread. I'm lucky that my Collie has never been a biting dog, even as a puppy.

One thing I did pick up on is that he's sitting on your knee. Personally, I wouldn't allow this. Keep him on the floor and let him know his place.

I've only ever owned females but I hear that castration helps to sort these sorts of issues (not surprisingly!).

Good luck.
 
davemk said:
Some very sound advice in this thread. I'm lucky that my Collie has never been a biting dog, even as a puppy.

One thing I did pick up on is that he's sitting on your knee. Personally, I wouldn't allow this. Keep him on the floor and let him know his place.

I've only ever owned females but I hear that castration helps to sort these sorts of issues (not surprisingly!).

Good luck.
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He is getting better with the biting since going to puppy class and training him a lot. I don't have him on my knee anymore only for 5 to 10 minutes on a morning.
 
He will grow out of it soon it's him playing :)

If you want a little bite on his ear is very effective to let him know it's wrong or to far, (it's what his mother would do, before the hippy do gooders get on the high horse)

My 1 yr cocker still mouths to play, but it's not sharp anymore and will stop or go easy if asked, with no or gently as words of command
 
lizzy23 said:
just a bit unorthodox, and proved to be very outdated, and i have to say i live with a pack of dogs, and never have i seen my top dog pin the others down, when they've been out of line, and if i'm honest i've seen more go the other way when they've been alpha rolled and actually bit first and ask questions later.

Personally i don't subscribe to dominating or pack theory, its all been proved to be out of date and a load of tosh, i want my dogs to do as they're told because they want to, not because they're scared of me, its taken me 4 years and 3 years respectively with 2 of mine, to put right the damage that was done by other people training through fear.
Click to expand...

completely agree with this, makes me annoyed that Caesar Milan gets away with preaching that crap as often as he does on TV.
 
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