Branch: First draft

[grotty]

They do... but they look like something I'm trying to avoid.

Knock something together by all means. Just trying to picture three columns of text with no images, pull quotes etc...

Two column would still look neat, can you send me source files for that spread? What software did you use - the copy is rasterised.

 

[big soft moose]

To be honest i'd cull most of these - the people shots are largely quite good, but the line pictures are all essentially the same, same angle of view , taken from the same height, grsss, overgrown line could be anywhere .

I'm presuming there is an artistic point i'm missing in taking so many like that - but to me it lacks interest, i'd prefer to have seen different angles of shot and something that actually captured the feeling of abandonment etc ... the only exception is the switch cabinets on page 58, I'd also have prefered to see different light, weather conditions etc rather than boring grey sky, flat light meh.

 

[Pookeyhead]

Two column would still look neat, can you send me source files for that spread? What software did you use - the copy is rasterised.

InDesign.... but it was rasterised, yes as it's only ever going to be printed one size, so no scalability is needed. I actually wrote the words in Word, and just imported them, so they're not embedded... but linked. The logo is rasterised too... no need for vector, as I just sized for the page size.

It's just a 33x28cm page.

Words as a .docx are here..


https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/23953768/branch1.docx

Don't really need them for a layout proof though if you don't want... just use lorem ipsum.

 

[grotty]

Will knock something up this evening. Always better to use real copy if possible.

 

[Pookeyhead]

Nice documentary set of images. Amazingly enough I know Dave Evans in #13. It's probably 25 years since I last saw him when we used to live in Blackpool. He was into trains and buses way back then. At one point he had a ride on train that went round the park in Cleveleys (I think there's an ice rink there now). I also remember him taking us up and down the illuminations in his own double decker bus. Say hello from Peter & Sarah Bindon if you bump into him again.

Thanks


I will I see him most Saturdays. I'm not surprised.. he seems to know everyone interesting chap. I'll pass on your regards.

 

[Pookeyhead]

Will knock something up this evening. Always better to use real copy if possible.

Cheers... look forward to seeing it.

 

[Solo man]

To be honest i'd cull most of these - the people shots are largely quite good, but the line pictures are all essentially the same, same angle of view , taken from the same height, grsss, overgrown line could be anywhere .

I'm presuming there is an artistic point i'm missing in taking so many like that - but to me it lacks interest, i'd prefer to have seen different angles of shot and something that actually captured the feeling of abandonment etc ... the only exception is the switch cabinets on page 58, I'd also have prefered to see different light, weather conditions etc rather than boring grey sky, flat light meh.

I can kind of see where you're coming from in saying that you think the 'line' shots all look the same, I thought that when I first saw them, but the more I looked at them I noticed how different they were... also, if the images all had accompanying text it would add to the set, or at least 'place' them, I think.
I didn't feel it needed different weather to make them more, or less, interesting though.

 

[Pookeyhead]

I can kind of see where you're coming from in saying that you think the 'line' shots all look the same, I thought that when I first saw them, but the more I looked at them I noticed how different they were... also, if the images all had accompanying text it would add to the set, or at least 'place' them, I think.
I didn't feel it needed different weather to make them more, or less, interesting though.

I agree. I purposely shot them in the same light for this reason. That's why it took me 6 weeks to shoot 8 miles of line. I could have walked it in a morning. It took so long because I wanted cloudy days, all within a 2 hour window of 9am to 11am to keep the light as uniform as possible.

The "Book" will still keep the two sections.. I just feel there are too many. The less important or similar ones will go I think.

 

[big soft moose]

I can kind of see where you're coming from in saying that you think the 'line' shots all look the same, I thought that when I first saw them, but the more I looked at them I noticed how different they were... also, if the images all had accompanying text it would add to the set, or at least 'place' them, I think.
I didn't feel it needed different weather to make them more, or less, interesting though.

If i was documenting a project like that i'd like all the shots not to look like they've been taken on the same day , likewise if i was buying the book i'd want to get a feel of the place through the seasons not just on one cloudy day.

I think the basic difference i that if i buy a book like this i'm intersted in the photography so i want to see the photographs show case the photographers ability to document their project - whereas i believe David wants "the aesthetic not to distract from the sense of being there" (though he actually said that on the merfolk thread) so the quality of the photography is irrelevant.

that being the case theres little more i can add that would be useful - as for me the lack of quality of the photos is itself a distraction.

 

[Solo man]

If i was documenting a project like that i'd like all the shots not to look like they've been taken on the same day , likewise if i was buying the book i'd want to get a feel of the place through the seasons not just on one cloudy day.

I think the basic difference i that if i buy a book like this i'm intersted in the photography so i want to see the photographs show case the photographers ability to document their project - whereas i believe David wants "the aesthetic not to distract from the sense of being there" (though he actually said that on the merfolk thread) so the quality of the photography is irrelevant.

that being the case theres little more i can add that would be useful - as for me the lack of quality of the photos is itself a distraction.

Yes, I get that too...
Yet, I would buy the book as it 'documents' something...so, for me, the photography is secondary, in a way... I'd like more text.

 

[Ed Sutton]

A lot of photographers (particularly amateurs/hobbyists) need to ty looking at photographs as pictures and/or documents and forget about how they've been made - that's really unimportant. What matters is the information they contain and how they work as pictures.

 

[Solo man]

If i was documenting a project like that i'd like all the shots not to look like they've been taken on the same day , likewise if i was buying the book i'd want to get a feel of the place through the seasons not just on one cloudy day.

I think the basic difference i that if i buy a book like this i'm intersted in the photography so i want to see the photographs show case the photographers ability to document their project - whereas i believe David wants "the aesthetic not to distract from the sense of being there" (though he actually said that on the merfolk thread) so the quality of the photography is irrelevant.

that being the case theres little more i can add that would be useful - as for me the lack of quality of the photos is itself a distraction.

I still don't see how you feel shooting the line images through the seasons will add anything to what they are conveying..., yes it might make them look nice, but surely they'd still say the same thing?...

 

[Pookeyhead]

A lot of photographers (particularly amateurs/hobbyists) need to ty looking at photographs as pictures and/or documents and forget about how they've been made - that's really unimportant. What matters is the information they contain and how they work as pictures.

Agreed... but if the weather/light was different in the line images, I think it would look awful. Consistency in style in curated work is vital, and that second section, while technically documentary... kind of isn't if you know what I mean. Aesthetic was important to capture how the line makes me feel.

 

[Pookeyhead]

I still don't see how you feel shooting the line images through the seasons will add anything to what they are conveying..., yes it might make them look nice, but surely they'd still say the same thing?...

You talking to me here?

I've no plans to do that. I don;t think they would say the same thing. I want a melancholy feel... of abandonment.. waiting... I don't think I'll get that with typical "nice" golder hour light.

 

[Solo man]

You talking to me here?

I've no plans to do that. I don;t think they would say the same thing. I want a melancholy feel... of abandonment.. waiting... I don't think I'll get that with typical "nice" golder hour light.

No David.... I'm replying to Big Soft Moose...

 

[Pookeyhead]

No David.... I'm replying to Big Soft Moose...

Ah... couldn't see that on this page, sorry.

In fact, I recall blocking him. It normally tells you when someone blocked has posted though... doesn't seem to be doing that any more.

 

[Solo man]

Ah... couldn't see that on this page, sorry.

Oh, ok... yeah it was his quotes I was replying to, not you lol.

 

[big soft moose]

A lot of photographers (particularly amateurs/hobbyists) need to ty looking at photographs as pictures and/or documents and forget about how they've been made - that's really unimportant. What matters is the information they contain and how they work as pictures.

I agree - but a lot of these don't work as pictures imo - some do, like the potted plant with the line in the brickwork leading down to it (though that onetells me nothing about the branch line). The ones that speak to me in this set are the people pictures which most evoke a sense of the camaradeie and spirit of what these guys are doing (the tea room picture is an exception that doesnt add anything in my opinion)

with the line pictures, most of them (with a few exceptions) look like what you'd get if you gave a non photographer a compact camera and asked them to document the line, ie lots of shots taken at eye level taken with the 'my dog' angle and a minimum of thought given to composition

 

[big soft moose]

I still don't see how you feel shooting the line images through the seasons will add anything to what they are conveying..., yes it might make them look nice, but surely they'd still say the same thing?...

Because in different seasons you see different things - landscapes look different with different levls of vegetatuon, different angles of light show different details etc... its not about looking 'nice' per se its about documenting more than the obvious... for me the line pictures don't do that.

(btw David has me on ignore i think after a contretemps on another thread - therefore he won't be able to see where you've quoted me - personally i'd say that this is a shame, because you don't learn anything by listening only to those who think your work is simply great, which rather defeats the point of posting for crit )

 

[Solo man]

I agree - but a lot of these don't work as pictures imo - some do, like the potted plant with the line in the brickwork leading down to it (though that onetells me nothing about the branch line). The ones that speak to me in this set are the people pictures which most evoke a sense of the camaradeie and spirit of what these guys are doing (the tea room picture is an exception that doesnt add anything in my opinion)

with the line pictures, most of them (with a few exceptions) look like what you'd get if you gave a non photographer a compact camera and asked them to document the line, ie lots of shots taken at eye level taken with the 'my dog' angle and a minimum of thought given to composition

But don't you think that the way the line pictures are taken, helps to convey perhaps the enormity of the task... I get what you mean about all the people shots, which are more interesting, but I think you need more than that for it to work.

 

[Solo man]

Because in different seasons you see different things - landscapes look different with different levls of vegetatuon, different angles of light show different details etc... its not about looking 'nice' per se its about documenting more than the obvious... for me the line pictures don't do that.

(btw David has me on ignore i think after a contretemps on another thread - therefore he won't be able to see where you've quoted me)

Ok, got you...

Well, maybe it's just as well we all like different things...

 

[Pookeyhead]

(btw David has me on ignore i think after a contretemps on another thread - therefore he won't be able to see where you've quoted me)

No.. I had.... and it was doing my head in! It used to tell you when someone on ignore was posting in your thread, now it doesn't and it's making me feel as if I've lost the ability to understand English... everything just stopped making sense!! Stupid forum software.

Because in different seasons you see different things - landscapes look different with different levls of vegetatuon, different angles of light show different details etc... its not about looking 'nice' per se its about documenting more than the obvious... for me the line pictures don't do that.

Turning of the seasons are of no importance.. just the line... it's sense of abandonment... waiting... Different seasons evoke different feelings. Didn't want that. They'd become too pictorial too. I wanted uniformity. More of a topographical study than a landscape. I agree there are too many though, I had doubts myself and others have confirmed that too.

(the tea room picture is an exception that doesnt add anything in my opinion)

Gotta stand firm on that one. It typifies the characters. So quintessentially correct for the type. Trains... old men... tea breaks... that line of old milk bottles... the dress style... it says so much in one image. For me THAT'S the one image that captures them. I love all feedback on this, but I'm firmly standing my ground on that one

with the line pictures, most of them (with a few exceptions) look like what you'd get if you gave a non photographer a compact camera and asked them to document the line

Again... I think we have a conflict of photographic styles. Pictorialism has no place here. I'm not breaking new ground with these... I wanted a topographic, regimented "New Topographic" aesthetic. I wanted it to feel like you were walking down it in a day as someone else said... So with that in mind.. result.

as for me the lack of quality of the photos is itself a distraction.

Can you explain why they lack quality?

 

[big soft moose]

But don't you think that the way the line pictures are taken, helps to convey perhaps the enormity of the task... I get what you mean about all the people shots, which are more interesting, but I think you need more than that for it to work.

It does to an extent - and i'd appreciate that David says he was aiming for consistency of style - however imo there are far too many the same, if it were me i'd have put them in sets with a consistency of style accross the set,but not every photo in the whole section being the same and virtually interchangeable.

I'd also pick up David second comment about wanting the aesthetic to show how the line makes him feel - for me at least this hasnt succeeded as it doesnt convey a melacholic sense of abandoment - it conveys bloke with a camera went for a walk on a cloudy day.

This is one of those area where its very difficult to acheive because we can all look at our own work and think it captures how we are feeling - but to effectively communicate that feeling to a third party is much more difficult (Don Mcullin acheives in some of his vietnam collections imo - but its a rare acheivement)

anyway - i'll leave this discussion now, because David isnt reading it anyway,so theres no point in giving further crit

 

[big soft moose]

No.. I had.... and it was doing my head in! It used to tell you when someone on ignore was posting in your thread, now it doesn't and it's making me feel as if I've lost the ability to understand English... everything just stopped making sense!! Stupid forum software.

lol we agree there - that why i took you off ignore as well.

Turning of the seasons are of no importance.. just the line... it's sense of abandonment... waiting... Different seasons evoke different feelings. Didn't want that. They'd become too pictorial too. I wanted uniformity. More of a topographical study than a landscape. I agree there are too many though, I had doubts myself and others have confirmed that too.

fair enough - its not how i would have done it but we've established before that our styles are very different

Gotta stand firm on that one. It typifies the characters. So quintessentially correct for the type. Trains... old men... tea breaks... that line of old milk bottles... the dress style... it says so much in one image. For me THAT'S the one image that captures them. I love all feedback on this, but I'm firmly standing my ground on that one

again fair enough - but imo it doesnt capture those elements as well as you could have... my biggest issue with it is that there nothing that says branch line, t could be a bunch of old men having tea anywhere (the cluttered workshop picture similarly - that could be our workshop give or take a few omegas)

Again... I think we have a conflict of photographic styles. Pictorialism has no place here. I'm not breaking new ground with these... I wanted a topographic, regimented "New Topographic" aesthetic. I wanted it to feel like you were walking down it in a day as someone else said... So with that in mind.. result.

and again fair enough - if thats what you wanted you acheived it - it doesnt make a book i'd buy but i'd guess i'm not your target audience

Can you explain why they lack quality?

I'll come back to that - tobe fair i need to go and have another look

 

[Pookeyhead]

I'll come back to that - tobe fair i need to go and have another look

I expected us to disagree with the line shots and style... we'd never likely agree on that. However the quality is impeccable.. I have to take you to task on that . I've printed these at 2 metres across... they're awesome.

I often wonder how people are assessing quality from low res JPEGs.

 

[grotty]

InDesign.... but it was rasterised, yes as it's only ever going to be printed one size, so no scalability is needed. I actually wrote the words in Word, and just imported them, so they're not embedded... but linked. The logo is rasterised too... no need for vector, as I just sized for the page size.

It's just a 33x28cm page.

Words as a .docx are here..


https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/23953768/branch1.docx

Don't really need them for a layout proof though if you don't want... just use lorem ipsum.

Don't suppose you could add a vector version of the logo and the spread image too? Be nice to do a full spread.

 

[Solo man]

- as for me the lack of quality of the photos is itself a distraction.

Are you meaning 'quality' in the sense that you feel they are snapshots?.

 

[big soft moose]

I expected us to disagree with the line shots and style... we'd never likely agree on that. However the quality is impeccable.. I have to take you to task on that . I've printed these at 2 metres across... they're awesome.

I often wonder how people are assessing quality from low res JPEGs.

I've no doubt that you have - may be quality was the right word, I meant more the quality of the photography , e.g the way that 99% of the line shots are shot at the 'my dog' angle (that is the angle that a non photographer instinctively uses)

Now that may be part of 'your style' and that fine if you wanted to evoke the feeling of "mr ordinary goes for a walk with his compact" then you've succeeded, but given your undoubted photographic talent (which despite our not seeing eye to eye on many things ive never doubted) I was left underwhelmed.

That said i think this feeling is exarcerbated by the number of very similar shots

One last point i'd make is that the shot of the teasel head with the soft focus line behind is in there twice - once at the begining and again at the foot of page i think 56 - its a nice enough shot but imo once is sufficient.

(FwiW my favourite shot is the guy painiting the platform edge at the bottom of i think page 5 )

 

[Pookeyhead]

Don't suppose you could add a vector version of the logo and the spread image too? Be nice to do a full spread.

Which spread image? The page with the foreword is a white page. I don;t have a vector for the logo... just a bitmap, sorry. I hate Illustrator.. I'd rather lick p1$$ off nettles as Tommy Saxondale would say . Quality doesn't matter just to see what your layout looks like. Link to a .png with transparency below.

I added the text in InDesign... so it's just the old BR "double sausage". The font is Gill Sans, which was the font pre '66 BR used.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/23953768/Sausage.png

 

[Pookeyhead]

I've no doubt that you have - may be quality was the right word, I meant more the quality of the photography , e.g the way that 99% of them are shot at the 'my dog' angle (that is the angle that a non photographer instinctively uses)

Now that may be part of 'your style' and that fine if you wanted to evoke the feeling of "mr ordinary goes for a walk with his compact" then you've succeeded, but given your undoubted photographic talent (which despite our not seeing eye to eye on many things ive never doubted) I was left underwhelmed.

That said i think this feeling is exarcerbated by the number of very similar shots

One last point i'd make is that the shot of the teasel head with the soft focus line behind is in there twice - once at the begining and again at the foot of page i think 56 - its a nice enough shot but imo once is sufficient

Difference of opinion. I would never expect any other feedback from you. That's not an insult... just a reality. We have very different views on what good photography looks like, and every thread we cross swords in highlights that Like I said.. I'm not breaking new ground with that aesthetic. You're be levelling all the same accusations at a great many photographers apart from me who have used a similar approach to a landscape subject. I appreciate you don't get it.. but to be honest, and I genuinely do not mean this as an insult, I don't think you're the market I was aiming for for this work. If I was, it would look extremely different, as I know what you'd appreciate.

 

[Steve Smith]

Excellent. Reminds me of the time I used to volunteer at out local steam railway. Nearly forty years ago... that makes me feel old!


Steve.

 

[big soft moose]

Difference of opinion. I would never expect any other feedback from you. That's not an insult... just a reality. We have very different views on what good photography looks like, and every thread we cross swords in highlights that Like I said.. I'm not breaking new ground with that aesthetic. You're be levelling all the same accusations at a great many photographers apart from me who have used a similar approach to a landscape subject. I appreciate you don't get it.. but to be honest, and I genuinely do not mean this as an insult, I don't think you're the market I was aiming for for this work. If I was, it would look extremely different, as I know what you'd appreciate.

fair enough - as i said earlier I realise that i'm not your target market so theres not a lot of point in my putting detailed crit on the thread - it is just that my expectation of your photography was different to what i found (the same is true of merolk though i didnt comment on that)

nuff said, good luck with the book

 

[Ed Sutton]

with the line pictures, most of them (with a few exceptions) look like what you'd get if you gave a non photographer a compact camera and asked them to document the line, ie lots of shots taken at eye level taken with the 'my dog' angle and a minimum of thought given to composition

We'll have to disagree on that. I think non-photographers would have tried to make them all different rather than similar. I think the 'boring' approach makes you look for the differences between the pictures. The overcast light aids that as it prevents the pictures looking pretty. 'Great' light is really tedious in landscape photographs as it can become the subject.

Agreed... but if the weather/light was different in the line images, I think it would look awful. Consistency in style in curated work is vital, and that second section, while technically documentary... kind of isn't if you know what I mean. Aesthetic was important to capture how the line makes me feel.

See above.

It used to tell you when someone on ignore was posting in your thread, now it doesn't...

It still does, but it's not very obvious - somewhere near the bottom of the page IIRC.

 

[Pookeyhead]

fair enough - as i said earlier I realise that i'm not your target market so theres not a lot of point in my putting detailed crit on the thread - it is just that my expectation of your photography was different to what i found (the same is true of merolk though i didnt comment on that)

nuff said, good luck with the book

Not at all... some was actually useful... I agree completely with you about the sheer number of images. That's good advice, and I accept it without reservation. Not seeing eye to eye aesthetically doesn't mean I don't respect your opinion as a photographer. I just know that SOME of the crit from people who I know to have a preference for a certain style will clearly not be relevant, as they will have an issue with the work. Taking crit doesn't mean accepting orders. I can filter useful crit from stuff that doesn't apply. It's all good though, and everyone should feedback on people's work. The photographer can make sense of the crit in their own time, and way.

 

[big soft moose]

We'll have to disagree on that. I think non-photographers would have tried to make them all different rather than similar. I think the 'boring' approach makes you look for the differences between the pictures. The overcast light aids that as it prevents the pictures looking pretty. 'Great' light is really tedious in landscape photographs as it can become the subject.
.

as you say we'll have to disagree imo a non photographer would just put the camera to his eye - or hold it out at arms length and take that angle - a hobby photographer might do as you suggest.

Also i wasnt necessarily suggesting golden hour - but imo if i wanted to suggest abandonment i might go for bad weather, rather han just flat and dull

 

[Pookeyhead]

as you say we'll have to disagree imo a non photographer would just put the camera to his eye

They're all taken on a tripod set to exactly 1.5 metre in height (Edit - apart from the odd departure shot like the points switch for eg.). Spirit level straight... same aperture, camera parallel to ground to keep verticals straight. No cropping. There's strict procedure. I had to work quite hard to get that level of monotony

imo if i wanted to suggest abandonment i might go for bad weather, rather han just flat and dull

There's rain visibly falling in a great many shots, and the ground is clearly wet with rain too

[edit].. at Burn Naze halt the rain was so heavy I had to shelter in that small concrete shed in the right of the frame for 40 minutes.

 

[Pookeyhead]

Excellent. Reminds me of the time I used to volunteer at out local steam railway. Nearly forty years ago... that makes me feel old!


Steve.

I enjoyed working with these guys so much, I do just that. I joined the society and volunteer work every Saturday morning. I don't even like trains that much.. LOL. I just think they do excellent work and now really want to see a train on that line.

 

[big soft moose]

There's rain visibly falling in a great many shots, and the ground is clearly wet with rain too

[edit].. at Burn Naze halt the rain was so heavy I had to shelter in that small concrete shed in the right of the frame for 40 minutes.

fair enough - I retract that

by the way did you think about shooting the whole thing in B&W ? - I just wondered because monochrome often lends itself to a sense of desolation

 

[Steve Smith]

I just think they do excellent work and now really want to see a train on that line.

When I used to tell people I worked at the steam railway, I think most of them thought it was all riding around on steam trains, collecting tickets and pulling levers in the signal box. The reality is that 90% of it is fairly mundane work such as lifting and packing (replacing the ballast under sleepers). Big railways have machines for it, we used a jack and half a dozen people with shovels!

Your images show the work which goes into it which people don't realise when they go as visitors to these places.

There is a bus museum here which has moved to new premises very close to my house. I plan to join it to give me something to do on Sundays (like I didn't have enough to do). I might try to get a bus licence after having a provisional one for over twenty years.


Steve.

 

[Pookeyhead]

fair enough - I retract that

by the way did you think about shooting the whole thing in B&W ? - I just wondered because monochrome often lends itself to a sense of desolation

No.. but I tried it as it was all shot in raw. I just like the pastel colours of the winter foliage (apart from that Cotoneaster bush.. that screaming red looks great in print). I DID however toy with the idea of the first section being B&W. That's still something I've not ruled out actually.