Bristol is set to become the UK's first city to ban diesel cars from entering parts of the city centre

[nilagin]

Are you arguing the timetable? They can't do it by 2025 the same reason why they can't stop it bluntly.

Don't be so sure. Car manufacturers have already been told by the European Court of Justice, to reduce the carbon footprint of their range of vehicles with almost immediate effect, when it had already been agreed they had until 2025.

There is already talk of bringing the 2040 cut off date forward by 5 or even 10yrs.

 

[broc]

I've been pondering whether to buy a used diesel instead of a petrol car precisely because their CO2 emissions are so low (+ they're very economical). 90% of our use would be on quiet rural roads, so not sure the NOx emissions are such a big problem in those circumstances. Bit torn about what to do now.

Any thoughts? Is this putting anyone else off?

We'd be looking to keep the car for many years (6+ at least) and don't want to end up with a lemon that we can't drive into UK cities!

Do your homework about maintaining the DPF in good order if buying a car with one. Short duration trips are bad for diesels with DPF, as are driving at low speeds in higher gears. If you are able to have a 'blast' down a fast road every week or so you might be ok. The newest diesels employ selective catalytic reduction(SCR) as well as DPF & use Adblue to lower NOx emissions.

 

[cardiff_gareth]

I do wonder who would volunteer to approach this chap on their own and tell him to scrap his nice red Landrover...

View attachment 259863

I've had 2 Landies and they were the best vehicles I owned! Did the Land Rover test track at Eastnor Castle also in one much to my wife's horror!

Anyway, back on the point. When there's flooding or snow and the volunteer 4x4 club that get hospital staff etc into work by given free rides, will they still be banned?

 

[cardiff_gareth]

Do your homework about maintaining the DPF in good order if buying a car with one. Short duration trips are bad for diesels with DPF, as are driving at low speeds in higher gears. If you are able to have a 'blast' down a fast road every week or so you might be ok. The newest diesels employ selective catalytic reduction(SCR) as well as DPF & use Adblue to lower NOx emissions.

This is why as much as I'd love a diesel I can't as my weekly driving is very short quick driving sessions and I'd be eating DPFs like they were going out of fashion.

 

[nilagin]

This is why as much as I'd love a diesel I can't as my weekly driving is very short quick driving sessions and I'd be eating DPFs like they were going out of fashion.

Even a pre dpf car would be no good for such journeys. It will never heat up properly in the winter and you'll end up diluting the oil.

 

[FujiLove]

Do your homework about maintaining the DPF in good order if buying a car with one. Short duration trips are bad for diesels with DPF, as are driving at low speeds in higher gears. If you are able to have a 'blast' down a fast road every week or so you might be ok. The newest diesels employ selective catalytic reduction(SCR) as well as DPF & use Adblue to lower NOx emissions.

Thanks Brian - I think we would be okay in that regard as it would be primarily my wife's commuter car, and she has a 30 mile run each way. I'd estimate one third of the route is 30 mph, another third 50 mph and the rest 70 mph dual carriageway.

Looking at a 3 year old BMW 320d...but may stick with my original idea of a Golf GTi as our current one has been so much fun and almost bulletproof.

 

[PaulF]

It's a pity really, quite like Bristol but guess we won't be visiting there once this comes into force.
We have always drove into a city centre hotel, parked, then walked everywhere within the city. Won't be able to do that

Considering the plan is to charge busses £100 per day(don't know if that is per company or per bus) but that cost is going to be passed onto the customer or the bus company will just pull their Bristol routes.

Shops will have issues getting stock and our company support a few high street businesses, can't see our company footing the bill to drive a van into Bristol to service a fault within that zone.
Shops could close as there will be less shoppers - unable to drive in and busses may be scarce.

Granted, sounds like something needs to be done in Bristol but this plan sounds ill thought out.

 

[broc]

It's a pity really, quite like Bristol but guess we won't be visiting there once this comes into force.
We have always drove into a city centre hotel, parked, then walked everywhere within the city. Won't be able to do that

Considering the plan is to charge busses £100 per day(don't know if that is per company or per bus) but that cost is going to be passed onto the customer or the bus company will just pull their Bristol routes.

Shops will have issues getting stock and our company support a few high street businesses, can't see our company footing the bill to drive a van into Bristol to service a fault within that zone.
Shops could close as there will be less shoppers - unable to drive in and busses may be scarce.

Granted, sounds like something needs to be done in Bristol but this plan sounds ill thought out.

I wonder if the bus companies will switch to electric or LPG fuelled buses in Bristol?

 

[PaulF]

I wonder if the bus companies will switch to electric or LPG fuelled buses in Bristol?

Maybe, that would prove the policy I guess and if the bus companies are already moving to cleaner fuels then fine, you could see some joined up thinking. Doesn't seem to be the case though.
Bristol recently invested in their Metrobus scheme, faster bus journeys with pre-pay tickets and fewer stops on route, seems this new plan is at odds with the previous one!

It would have been better to have an electric tram system similar to Manchester before having an outright ban.

The issue here really is that they seem to have read, and believed, some headlines about diesel engines and come up with a plan without doing any level of fact checking.
Some diesels are more polluting than others and some diesels are less polluting than other forms of fuel.

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

The issue here really is that they seem to have read, and believed, some headlines about diesel engines and come up with a plan without doing any level of fact checking.

Of course the citizens of Bristol might take a negative view of the councillors proposing this approach come the next round of elections...

 

[cambsno]

Are you arguing the timetable? They can't do it by 2025 the same reason why they can't stop it bluntly.

You do realise a happy medium needs to be set between cutting off something bluntly or a soft stop? And that 2040 is one they all decided it is the optimal timeline.

Sounds like you are arguing for arguing sake.

I meant sales of new cars. Just ban them from 2021 or 2025. Why would that be so difficult?

 

[Raymond Lin]

I meant sales of new cars. Just ban them from 2021 or 2025. Why would that be so difficult?

As opposed to old cars?

Sales tax revenue? Some people still want to buy it? Like i said, OBVIOUS answers.

 

[cambsno]

As opposed to old cars?

Sales tax revenue? Some people still want to buy it? Like i said, OBVIOUS answers.

Not really. If something is dangerous it gets banned, like asbestos. People could still buy petrol or EV so no loss there nor on the tax revenue. At the moment diesels would still need to be available for commercial like vans but i don’t see what would be so bad about stopping new diesel car sales.

 

[Raymond Lin]

Not really. If something is dangerous it gets banned, like asbestos. People could still buy petrol or EV so no loss there nor on the tax revenue. At the moment diesels would still need to be available for commercial like vans but i don’t see what would be so bad about stopping new diesel car sales.

I just told you.

As opposed to old cars?

Sales tax revenue? Some people still want to buy it? Like i said, OBVIOUS answers.

Same reason it is 2040, not 2019, it needs to scale it down, is it me or is that just VERY OBVIOUS?

 

[Donnie]

I've been pondering whether to buy a used diesel instead of a petrol car precisely because their CO2 emissions are so low (+ they're very economical). 90% of our use would be on quiet rural roads, so not sure the NOx emissions are such a big problem in those circumstances. Bit torn about what to do now.

Any thoughts? Is this putting anyone else off?

We'd be looking to keep the car for many years (6+ at least) and don't want to end up with a lemon that we can't drive into UK cities!

I've bought a second diesel as I specifically wanted one. It's a nice old 1996 2.5td and it's to replace the 2017 1.5 diesel qashai I currently have which in less than 12 months will be 3 years old and either need refinancing or selling. Im going for selling. This will take it's place.

 

[Donnie]

As opposed to old cars?

Sales tax revenue? Some people still want to buy it? Like i said, OBVIOUS answers.

Not really. If something is dangerous it gets banned, like asbestos. People could still buy petrol or EV so no loss there nor on the tax revenue. At the moment diesels would still need to be available for commercial like vans but i don’t see what would be so bad about stopping new diesel car sales.

Precisely, if the world was serious about it, it would be banned simple, but money talks, simple.

 

[cambsno]

I just told you.



Same reason it is 2040, not 2019, it needs to scale it down, is it me or is that just VERY OBVIOUS?

Why is it obvious? What would be the harm in banning new sales in a few years. People would simply buy the petrol or ev version? Yes, I k ow diesels can be better for towing but do we NEED diesels?

 

[Raymond Lin]

Why is it obvious? What would be the harm in banning new sales in a few years. People would simply buy the petrol or ev version? Yes, I k ow diesels can be better for towing but do we NEED diesels?

Besides the fact that I just explained it but it’s clear your eyes are seeing it but your brain is not registering.

The whole world is set up to run on both petrol and diesel, besides that fact, there are jobs that relies on it, there is the lobbyist, there is the tax, there is the politics, these car firms are not small, they have political leverage. Then there is not enough production it EV to sustain it all. The world can’t just move to EV overnight, Tesla can’t even keep up with their production and they have their own battery plant and it’s the largest in the world. Hence the 2040 timeline for a gradual transition.

If I have to explain it anymore it feels like an insult, so I’m out.

 

[cambsno]

Besides the fact that I just explained it but it’s clear your eyes are seeing it but your brain is not registering.

The whole world is set up to run on both petrol and diesel, besides that fact, there are jobs that relies on it, there is the lobbyist, there is the tax, there is the politics, these car firms are not small, they have political leverage. Then there is not enough production it EV to sustain it all. The world can’t just move to EV overnight, Tesla can’t even keep up with their production and they have their own battery plant and it’s the largest in the world. Hence the 2040 timeline for a gradual transition.

If I have to explain it anymore it feels like an insult, so I’m out.

I am not saying we have to ban diesels full stop... just the new ones... and there would be no job losses... sales would be replaced by petrol cars so instead of (for example) selling 1000 petrol and 1000 diesel cars they sell 2000 petrol cars!

 

[Raymond Lin]

I am not saying we have to ban diesels full stop... just the new ones... and there would be no job losses... sales would be replaced by petrol cars so instead of (for example) selling 1000 petrol and 1000 diesel cars they sell 2000 petrol cars!

I know what you mean when you said ban Diesel, new ones, hence I said "as opposed to old ones?"

I took that into account when I made my other point, which still stands as I already took your point (which you think I didn't) into account. And no, you just can't just swap over because Diesel still have a place in cars (hence the long transition) . Long mileage cruisers, family mini vans. What they should stop doing is putting them in these crappy small cars for people who drive 2 miles to work in them, and then wonder why their DPF gets clogged up.

I feel like I am pointing out all the obvious that I thought EVERYONE knew....or is it just me?

 

[cambsno]

I know what you mean when you said ban Diesel, new ones, hence I said "as opposed to old ones?"

I took that into account when I made my other point, which still stands as I already took your point (which you think I didn't) into account. And no, you just can't just swap over because Diesel still have a place in cars (hence the long transition) . Long mileage cruisers, family mini vans. What they should stop doing is putting them in these crappy small cars for people who drive 2 miles to work in them, and then wonder why their DPF gets clogged up.

I feel like I am pointing out all the obvious that I thought EVERYONE knew....or is it just me?

Then it depends on how 'dangerous' diesel cars are. If they are then stop selling new ones and people will have to get used to less MPG but not kill kiddies on the streets. If Bristol have overreacted, then carry on selling diesels but stop taxing people/banning them for using them!

 

[nilagin]

I am not saying we have to ban diesels full stop... just the new ones... and there would be no job losses... sales would be replaced by petrol cars so instead of (for example) selling 1000 petrol and 1000 diesel cars they sell 2000 petrol cars!

There would be job losses. The people that manufacture the diesel engines.
Why would there be a need to ban new diesels? Their emissions limit is only 0.02g/km above petrols and have far lower CO2 emissions than their petrol equivalent.

 

[nilagin]

What they should stop doing is putting them in these crappy small cars for people who drive 2 miles to work in them, and then wonder why their DPF gets clogged up.

I feel like I am pointing out all the obvious that I thought EVERYONE knew....or is it just me?

That is the car buyers fault for buying the wrong vehicle. Nothing to do with the manufacturer. There will be plenty of people who do long journeys, who only require a small car, why should they have to buy a petrol or bigger diesel car or just because of the misuse by others.
Isn't that obvious?

 

[wyx087]

Precisely, if the world was serious about it, it would be banned simple, but money talks, simple.

there is the lobbyist, there is the tax, there is the politics, these car firms are not small, they have political leverage. T

This is the source of the problem. If something sells well, and there isn't enough political incentive (pressure from public, or to win votes), the ban won't happen thanks to political leverage from big established firms.

Car manufacturers make a lot of money from sale and servicing ICE cars. In early 2010's, there isn't much reason to build EV's, so most of them did not make any effort in making EV's. This leads to the situation we are in now, councils banning most polluting cars, but the general public who buys used cars don't have any good alternative. The battery supply chain for EV is also not established for the volumn ramp up we need over next few years.

But straight up banning diesel sales isn't the answer, from global environmental point of view, diesels are better than petrols. Having a very aggressive manufacturer fleet-wide multi-metric emission decrease, this must include EV manufacturing+use, is a better method.

Bristol want a blanket ban on all diesel cars in their city centre. But like you and Mr Bump wish to ignore the fact that there will still be petrol cars emitting higher nox allowed to use the city centre roads whilst owners of cleaner diesels can't.
Nothing to do with me being selective and nothing to do with your comparison to the tobacco industry.

Whilst I'm not disagreeing your statement, see my first post in this thread.
But you are distorting stats by not comparing like to like. You have, again, purposefully compared cleaner diesels against all petrol cars. Of course a newer, cleaner vehicle will emit less harmful gas than older vehicles.

Answer a very simple question:
All diesel cars vs All petrol cars on the road today, which type will emit more NOx?
Based on that data alone, which type would you ban to reduce NOx levels?

 

[Deleted sulking member 63079]

correct matey, but dirty diesel owners want the problem to be caused by someone else not them.

I am a dirty diesel owner. Does me well on the long trips I make on a weekly/monthly basis.

But I've never driven it into the city centre.

 

[Raymond Lin]

I am a dirty diesel owner. Does me well on the long trips I make on a weekly/monthly basis.

But I've never driven it into the city centre.

and I can rock into middle of Bristol with my 2.5L Petrol Turbo without any penalties.

I know how absurd the ban is, but until a good alternative like EV or Hydrogen cars (which I think is the better tech, quick refill, no battery degradation), we can only take these little steps at a time, often it can be a wrong one. This ban on all Diesel cars into the centre won't do anything to the overall impact of the world. But not what that is about, it's simply to reduce NO2 gas in the centre where the concentration of people is, with cars going slow, bumper to bumper, pumping out more NO2.

 

[Deleted sulking member 63079]

and I can rock into middle of Bristol with my 2.5L Petrol Turbo without any penalties.

I know how absurd the ban is, but until a good alternative like EV or Hydrogen cars (which I think is the better tech, quick refill, no battery degradation), we can only take these little steps at a time, often it can be a wrong one. This ban on all Diesel cars into the centre won't do anything to the overall impact of the world. But that what that is about, it's simply to reduce NO2 gas in the centre where the concentration of people is, with cars going slow, bumper to bumper, pumping out more NO2.

No I absolutely agree with you. It's the people comparing it to planes who are missing the point

 

[Tom Pinchenzo]

Crazy - why allow them to be sold then!!!

A nationwide ban on the sale of diesel cars would require government to legislate. This was a decision taken by a city council to improve its air quality.

 

[nilagin]

This is the source of the problem. If something sells well, and there isn't enough political incentive (pressure from public, or to win votes), the ban won't happen thanks to political leverage from big established firms.

Car manufacturers make a lot of money from sale and servicing ICE cars. In early 2010's, there isn't much reason to build EV's, so most of them did not make any effort in making EV's. This leads to the situation we are in now, councils banning most polluting cars, but the general public who buys used cars don't have any good alternative. The battery supply chain for EV is also not established for the volumn ramp up we need over next few years.

But straight up banning diesel sales isn't the answer, from global environmental point of view, diesels are better than petrols. Having a very aggressive manufacturer fleet-wide multi-metric emission decrease, this must include EV manufacturing+use, is a better method.


Whilst I'm not disagreeing your statement, see my first post in this thread.
But you are distorting stats by not comparing like to like. You have, again, purposefully compared cleaner diesels against all petrol cars. Of course a newer, cleaner vehicle will emit less harmful gas than older vehicles.

Answer a very simple question:
All diesel cars vs All petrol cars on the road today, which type will emit more NOx?
Based on that data alone, which type would you ban to reduce NOx levels?

I would still do the same as London's ULEZ with older petrol and diesel cars and ban them. Allowing dirtier petrols to continue won't reduce the nox as much as banning all diesels. If they are serious about reducing emissions at least do it properly.

 

[nilagin]

A nationwide ban on the sale of diesel cars would require government to legislate. This was a decision taken by a city council to improve its air quality.

Bristol still requires government permission to put the ban into action. Hopefully someone in the government will be better clued up than Bristol Council.

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

Some facts from the DEFR which suggest that things are much better than they used to be...

https://assets.publishing.service.g...483/Emissions_of_air_pollutants_1990_2017.pdf

 

[cambsno]

There would be job losses. The people that manufacture the diesel engines.
Why would there be a need to ban new diesels? Their emissions limit is only 0.02g/km above petrols and have far lower CO2 emissions than their petrol equivalent.

Well no, because thee would be a need to make up the difference with more petrol engines so jobs transferred!

 

[noneforit]

To be fair, modern Petrol engines make decent MPG which is often the reason people buy a diesel in the first place, unless I were doing long ish journeys on a daily basis, I wouldn't go near a diesel.

We have a Mini Clubman Cooper S with the BMW B58 engine so 2.0T which puts out 190bhp standard and 260bhp with a remap. Obviously FWD so you get lots of torque steer if you plant it but its a fairly quick car and on the motorway it does 50mpg all day long if you sit at 70mph.

We have driven several long journeys (400+ miles) in the 18 months we have had it and you get 45-50mpg as an average on these which is pretty decent from a car putting out 190bhp per tonne.

 

[wyx087]

Well no, because thee would be a need to make up the difference with more petrol engines so jobs transferred!

Oh no. We can't have job transfers. Skills simply does not transfer (!)

Coal minners have to continue dig for coal.
Switchboard operators have to continue to operate switchboard.
Textile workers has to continue sewing with hand, we don't want any sewing machines here.
Text has to continue to be copied by hand, printers are work of evil.

New technology? who need those. Everyone should crap in a hole, get water from nearest river/well and breath deep on the good ol' fossil fuel exhaust fumes.

Repeat after me: modern engines are clean, modern engines are clean! Everyone just need to buy our newest cars whenever the goal post moves.

 

[nilagin]

Well no, because thee would be a need to make up the difference with more petrol engines so jobs transferred!

And if the engines are built in different factories?

 

[nilagin]

Everyone just need to buy our newest cars whenever the goal post moves.

Most people buy new cars because they fancy a new car. Nothing to do with goalposts.

 

[Garry Edwards]

Why is it obvious? What would be the harm in banning new sales in a few years. People would simply buy the petrol or ev version? Yes, I k ow diesels can be better for towing but do we NEED diesels?

YOU may not need one, I do.

 

[LongLensPhotography]

Utter madness, just as expected from Bristol bureaucratic loons. I don't see this approved by government at all and will go back to drawing board to reemerge as London style screw job more likely. Still a terrible outcome and it will be a place I avoid as a plague going forward. Who would want to do business let alone live in that hellhole. It's for people in red trousers with naked bottom riding single gear bikes and polluting air chain-smoking weed. What a great idea it would be to move them all there and deprive them of means to travel out.

 

[LongLensPhotography]

To be fair, modern Petrol engines make decent MPG which is often the reason people buy a diesel in the first place, unless I were doing long ish journeys on a daily basis, I wouldn't go near a diesel.

We have a Mini Clubman Cooper S with the BMW B58 engine so 2.0T which puts out 190bhp standard and 260bhp with a remap. Obviously FWD so you get lots of torque steer if you plant it but its a fairly quick car and on the motorway it does 50mpg all day long if you sit at 70mph.

We have driven several long journeys (400+ miles) in the 18 months we have had it and you get 45-50mpg as an average on these which is pretty decent from a car putting out 190bhp per tonne.

an average well-reared pig weighs more than a mini so that must have something to do with reasonable consumption figures. I bet 5-series BMW with same engine won't go near these figures, nor performance.

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

an average well-reared pig weighs more than a mini

• Domestic Pig weight range 50 to 350 kg
• BL mini weight range 580 to 686 kg
• BMW Mini weight range 1,050 to 1,240 kg

So not correct.