Bronze Shieldbug

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Nick
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On the same day a couple of weeks ago that I saw the dung flies in our garden, in my next door neighbour's garden I saw this Bronze Shieldbug, Troilus luridus (that's what the good folk at iSpot tell me it is). I hadn't seen any other invertebrates for quite a while, and haven't seen any since.

Captured with a Raynox 150 on a Panasonic FZ200 bridge camera using natural light.

(For an 1100 pixel high version click on an image, then right click and select "Original".)


0518 52 2014_01_19 P1170549-Edit PS1 PSS3.86 Bronze Shieldbug
by gardenersassistant, on Flickr


0518 53 2014_01_19 P1170555-Edit PS1 PSS3.86 Bronze Shieldbug
by gardenersassistant, on Flickr


0518 54 2014_01_19 P1170538-Edit PS1 PSS3.86 Bronze Shieldbug
by gardenersassistant, on Flickr


0518 55 2014_01_19 P1170562-Edit PS1 PSS3.86 Bronze Shieldbug
by gardenersassistant, on Flickr
 
Thanks Mandy.

Interestingly enough, given the discussion in the Campaign for Critique thread about not having too many images in a post, I considered cutting down the number of images in this one. As it happens, I didn't, but the one I thought about removing was the second one! The reason? In the other three I managed to get the dof covering the whole subject, but in the second one the left antenna, left "shoulder" and the "nose" are outside of the dof, and that spoiled it a bit for me.

Don't get me wrong - I often post images where antennae, wings, legs etc are oof, either from movement or being outside of the dof. That is usually the best I can do. But in this case I had three that seemed to work nicely from that point of view, so why bother posting another one that didn't? Well, it was the closest in and as you pointed out you can see most detail in it.

Interesting how different aspects of an image matter more, or less, or not at all, varying from person to person (and in my case sometimes varying from time to time, even from one moment to the next, as I contemplate an image).
 
Really good set light and focus good on all of them
I prefer the third one as its going into the frame , the first two are pointing out which I don't think works as well but that's just me
The background is best in the last one shows him off well , stands out better:)
 
Thanks for the feedback Johan and Pete.

Pete, could you expand a bit on your "the first two are pointing out" please because I'm puzzled. The first one definitely looks like its pointing in to me.

The second one is more complicated. I do like my subjects looking in not out by and large, but there are two questions in my mind about #2 on that score now I have looked at it again. Do you think there is a more pleasing/balanced/better crop? I'm happy to be shown one (I haven't tried - I'm rushing off somewhere now). The other is a slightly obscure sounding question: how are you assessing whether a subject is pointing in or out? I'm wondering if you are giving priority to where the head is/eyes are. FWIW I use the subject's "centre of gravity" rather than its head/eyes. I'm having difficulty putting it into words, but I try to put the subject's "centre of gravity" on the opposite side of the centre of the image from the edge of the image towards which the subject is pointing. That may put the head/eyes on the "wrong" ("outer") side of the centre point, but with a subject that is occupying a good proportion of the image that is inevitable I think.
 
Great series Nick, I like them all but the 2nd and 3rd are my personal picks. In the first the subject is getting a bit lost in frame and the 4th looks slightly washed out (no doubt due to the bright background) compared to the others. I think the angle of the bug in the 3rd is best, but in all he is facing away from you. I would have liked to see his face a bit clearer, and maybe a shot from a lower angle. Great detail though and I love the warm colors.
 
Great series Nick, I like them all but the 2nd and 3rd are my personal picks. In the first the subject is getting a bit lost in frame and the 4th looks slightly washed out (no doubt due to the bright background) compared to the others. I think the angle of the bug in the 3rd is best, but in all he is facing away from you. I would have liked to see his face a bit clearer, and maybe a shot from a lower angle. Great detail though and I love the warm colors.

Thanks Tim. The first one is somewhat of an "environmental" shot, although there isn't actually much environment to see in this case. :) I do like to do series of three or more moving from a quite far out environmental shot in to filling plenty of the frame with the subject, or occasionally going in closer than that, to see just part of the subject, although I'm rather iffy about these because of the (from my perspective) quite severe dof issues that tend to arise with those.Personal taste, of course.

In my own mind I "drop the bar" regarding IQ for series. For example, at the start of this set there is a series of 18 shots of a snail climbing the stem of ... something or other. Several of the earlier shots really are quite poor, but I was content to include them because I thought they helped to give a bit more continuity to the series. Actually, I did something I haven't done before and used quicker, partly batch, processing just using Lightroom for this series and some other images later on in the set. They were shot a couple of years ago (I'm dipping into day's shooting sessions here and there in my backlog trying to catch up a bit before the new shooting season gets going), and they were shot as JPEGs, weren't very inspiring and were never going to be of stunning IQ, so I did a quick and dirty on them, in one day selecting and processing 90 or so from the day's 700 or so captures. I'm sure plenty of people would disapprove of this, looking at each image in its own right and regarding some/many/all of them as bin material. Different strokes. :) (And in any case, it's useful for the wildlife trust to have additional info about what is going on on their sites, and they aren't looking at them from a photographic perspective.)

#4 was rather poor starting material compared to the other three, but my PP has no doubt also contributed to the washed out look.

As to the angles, I was really constrained as to the angles I could get on it. At least I had a stable footing for the first ones I captured, #3 and #4. For #1 and #2 I was perched on/in a pile of tree branches of various sizes and in various states of decay that moved (and scratched) and transmitted movements quite a long way off as I tried to get to and maintain a nice angle. Eventually I caused such disruption that the subject disappeared. I was very lucky it stayed put as long as it did.
 
Thanks for the feedback Johan and Pete.

Pete, could you expand a bit on your "the first two are pointing out" please because I'm puzzled. The first one definitely looks like its pointing in to me.

The second one is more complicated. I do like my subjects looking in not out by and large, but there are two questions in my mind about #2 on that score now I have looked at it again. Do you think there is a more pleasing/balanced/better crop? I'm happy to be shown one (I haven't tried - I'm rushing off somewhere now). The other is a slightly obscure sounding question: how are you assessing whether a subject is pointing in or out? I'm wondering if you are giving priority to where the head is/eyes are. FWIW I use the subject's "centre of gravity" rather than its head/eyes. I'm having difficulty putting it into words, but I try to put the subject's "centre of gravity" on the opposite side of the centre of the image from the edge of the image towards which the subject is pointing. That may put the head/eyes on the "wrong" ("outer") side of the centre point, but with a subject that is occupying a good proportion of the image that is inevitable I think.

Hi Nick sorry for delay missed your post
I'm not very good at explaining what I'm thinking what I meant was that the third one especially is a better angle the eyes looking more towards the camera than away from it
The first and second ones are more pointing away from the camera ideally I always try to get the subject heading towards me rather than away at a lower angle not always possible to do though as there's never enough depth of field
 
Hi Nick sorry for delay missed your post
I'm not very good at explaining what I'm thinking what I meant was that the third one especially is a better angle the eyes looking more towards the camera than away from it
The first and second ones are more pointing away from the camera ideally I always try to get the subject heading towards me rather than away at a lower angle not always possible to do though as there's never enough depth of field

Ah, understood. :)
 
A nice set of shield bug images.

Thanks.

I see you use a bridge camera(the FZ200) with a raynox attached, excellent.
I may well ask you some questions on the capabilities of the FZ200...My FZ45 is now getting a little "tired" with an annoying "sticky" lens zoom.

Please do. I previously used a Canon S3is, a Canon SX10is and then in a quest for higher image quality for two years I used a Panasonic G3 (all with achromats - Canon 500D, Raynox 150, Raynox 250 and more recently, and only very occasionally, Raynox MSN-202). I have now "downgraded" from the G3 to an FZ200 because on balance I think it serves my needs better than the G3. I have a set of shots of invertebrates with two examples from each of these four cameras, and a set of shots of flowers with two examples from each of these cameras and also a Canon SX240is point and shoot. Thus far, only one person (not on this site btw) has said he was able to tell which camera produced which shot just by looking at them, and when I asked how, because I was genuinely interested to know and learn from it, I got no reply for some reason (the images do have Exif data by the way :)). (EDIT All of the images are processed for viewing at 1100 pixels high, but for some reason as you go through the set Flickr only shows the portrait orientation images full height; it makes the landscape images smaller. The only way I can find to see the landscape images full size is to right click on each one individually and select "Original". Grrrr.) (EDIT 2 Another annoyance is that if you look at the "Original" images in Firefox - at least on my PC - the images are shown 1200 pixels high rather than 1100 high, and they look less sharp. Chrome and Internet Explorer show the images at the correct height, and sharper.)

Anyway, although in principle the G3 should be able to produce much better quality images than the FZ200 because it's sensor has nine times the area of a bridge camera sensor, for the type of images I go for, and the way I go about getting them, and the way I post process them, I seem to get rather similar results. Even if the G3 is a bit better IQ-wise for my type of thing (and I'm not convinced of that), the FZ200 feels like the better option to me. This is largely because of the ergonomics - I find the FZ200 much easier to use in the flexible way I want compared to the other cameras I have used.

The FZ200, be warned, has a reputation for being rather noisy, even amongst other bridge cameras with similarly sized sensors. It is certainly noisy compared to the G3. However, for reasons we can discuss if you like it turns out that (for what I'm doing and how I go about it and how I post process) the noisiness isn't as much of an issue as you might think.

I'm very happy to discuss bridge + achromat techniques, in as much detail as you would like!
 
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The question often crops up around what gear people should get for shooting macro and I'm often asked about my MP-E. I always try and explain that the equipment used isn't really all that important and the main thing you need to worry about is getting the lighting right. Sure i love the MP-E and it is ubiquitous within the macro community, but I only splashed out on it because I wanted to get much higher magnification and I am a bit lazy.

I've just been looking through those examples you posted Nick, and I think you highlight the point precisely. All these are great and these two in particular caught my eye:


0505 2 IMG_4374-Edit-2 PS1 PSS3
by gardenersassistant, on Flickr


0505 4 IMG_8252-Edit-2 PS1 PSS3
by gardenersassistant, on Flickr

I just noticed it looks like I added these to my favs on Flickr about 6 months ago, so I must have liked them when i first saw them too ;)

Both were shot with the Canon powershot (I had to check the Exif, sadly i don't have the skills to name the camera an image was captured with just by looking at the IQ as yet). I'm assuming an adaptor of some kind was used, but maybe not. Anyway these could just have easily been captured with an MP-E or any other high end macro lens you care to mention, and I wouldn't have been able to tell the difference. Maybe a larger sensor would make life easier, a bit less noise and allow you to get bigger prints, but getting great shots like this relies far more of good lighting and good technique than anything else. OK, it's pretty amazing what most cameras can do nowadays, the gap between high-end (read "expensive") gear and lower-end ("not so expensive") gear gets ever narrower.

Sorry if I have taken the thread off at the tangent, just thought it worth chipping in with. Please carry on...
 
Sorry if I have taken the thread off at the tangent

Absolutely not a problem Tim. In this case, or in general. I'm happy for my threads to flow wherever anyone wants to take them (well, apart from slanging matches and mud-slinging I suppose, but I can't recall that ever happening anyway!)

just thought it worth chipping in with.

Definitely. I think it's a key issue which often seems (to my way of thinking) to be subject to some misconceptions. However, when in the company of people who are for the most part using high end equipment, and may tend to view things from that perspective, I'm a bit hesitant to pursue it ...

The question often crops up around what gear people should get for shooting macro and I'm often asked about my MP-E. I always try and explain that the equipment used isn't really all that important and the main thing you need to worry about is getting the lighting right.

... so it is very helpful to hear this coming from a user of high end equipment, who uses that equipment to excellent effect.

...these two in particular caught my eye...both were shot with the Canon powershot (I had to check the Exif, sadly i don't have the skills to name the camera an image was captured with just by looking at the IQ as yet).

:)

I'm assuming an adaptor of some kind was used, but maybe not.

Raynox 150 probably, given the size of the subjects. Modest magnification. Nice working distance of about 6 inches (irrespective of magnification). Fairly easy to use. (And a 10 megapixel camera with a 6mm wide sensor. The S3is examples used a 6mm, 6 megapixel sensor.)

Anyway these could just have easily been captured with an MP-E or any other high end macro lens you care to mention, and I wouldn't have been able to tell the difference. Maybe a larger sensor would make life easier, a bit less noise and allow you to get bigger prints, but getting great shots like this relies far more of good lighting and good technique than anything else. OK, it's pretty amazing what most cameras can do nowadays, the gap between high-end (read "expensive") gear and lower-end ("not so expensive") gear gets ever narrower.

For nicely sized subjects like these, using most of the original frame to produce modestly sized output like these, I'm inclined to agree. I may in some circumstances even have a bit of an advantage, for some types of shot.

However, I don't think I could approach what you and others do at the high magnification end, even when I'm using the beastly MSN-202 which in principle at least lets me deal with scenes as small as you can with the MPE. I am intending to have another go at the smaller stuff this year, but I'm not hopeful of achieving anything much. And even at lower magnifications I suspect you can get better microcontrast and clarity and perhaps also colours when using a larger sensor, although how closely you would have to look to see that with modest sized outputs like these I don't know. What I do know is that I have seen modest magnification images from Brian Valentine that I think "I can do that (ish)", and then he has then shown pretty substantial crops for those images which look just as good. Do that with my images and what you are looking at is mush.
 
Thanks.



Please do. I previously used a Canon S3is, a Canon SX10is and then in a quest for higher image quality for two years I used a Panasonic G3 (all with achromats - Canon 500D, Raynox 150, Raynox 250 and more recently, and only very occasionally, Raynox MSN-202). I have now "downgraded" from the G3 to an FZ200 because on balance I think it serves my needs better than the G3. I have a set of shots of invertebrates with two examples from each of these four cameras, and a set of shots of flowers with two examples from each of these cameras and also a Canon SX240is point and shoot. Thus far, only one person (not on this site btw) has said he was able to tell which camera produced which shot just by looking at them, and when I asked how, because I was genuinely interested to know and learn from it, I got no reply for some reason (the images do have Exif data by the way :)). (EDIT All of the images are processed for viewing at 1100 pixels high, but for some reason as you go through the set Flickr only shows the portrait orientation images full height; it makes the landscape images smaller. The only way I can find to see the landscape images full size is to right click on each one individually and select "Original". Grrrr.) (EDIT 2 Another annoyance is that if you look at the "Original" images in Firefox - at least on my PC - the images are shown 1200 pixels high rather than 1100 high, and they look less sharp. Chrome and Internet Explorer show the images at the correct height, and sharper.)

Anyway, although in principle the G3 should be able to produce much better quality images than the FZ200 because it's sensor has nine times the area of a bridge camera sensor, for the type of images I go for, and the way I go about getting them, and the way I post process them, I seem to get rather similar results. Even if the G3 is a bit better IQ-wise for my type of thing (and I'm not convinced of that), the FZ200 feels like the better option to me. This is largely because of the ergonomics - I find the FZ200 much easier to use in the flexible way I want compared to the other cameras I have used.

The FZ200, be warned, has a reputation for being rather noisy, even amongst other bridge cameras with similarly sized sensors. It is certainly noisy compared to the G3. However, for reasons we can discuss if you like it turns out that (for what I'm doing and how I go about it and how I post process) the noisiness isn't as much of an issue as you might think.

I'm very happy to discuss bridge + achromat techniques, in as much detail as you would like!

Well, I had a quick look at both your insect and flower images(very nice they were too) and would agree, its tough to say what camera took what shot?? I didnt look at the exif data of each image either(because that would spoil the fun!) but im inclined to think that the FZ200, would produce the better quality images?
I had the FZ28, before i got the FZ45, in some ways my old FZ28 could out perform the newer FZ45! My mistake, was that i should have gone for the FZ35/38, because that had the 12 megapixal sensor, where as the FZ45, got caught up in the "more mega pixels is better" game/race.
My FZ45 has the 14 megapixel sensor, which makes it a poor performer in dull light. In fact, once you shoot at ISO's beyond 250/300, the image quality is very poor! Hence the reason i use the camera in Macro Mode sub-setting "Objects", because in this mode, you can shoot at ISO 80! with good light. Although at ISO 80, you will have problems with too much light, so its finding a good balance, and shooting plenty of images, of chosen subjects.
If i can set up the FZ200, to capture images, as my FZ45 can(with the help of a Raynox macro lens!) then im considering getting an FZ200 sometime in the future. Since Panasonic dropped the megapixels back down for the FZ200 sensor, I was under the impression that it was capable of producing better quality images, in low light situations...an area that my FZ45 fails in.

Just to throw a spanner in the works, i have also owned a Nikon D5100, and i now have a nikon D7000...i also recently bought myself a 105mm macro lens for the D7000, so im hoping this combination will allow me to capture better quality macro's, than my humble FZ45!!!
 
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Well, I had a quick look at both your insect and flower images(very nice they were too) and would agree, its tough to say what camera took what shot?? I didnt look at the exif data of each image either(because that would spoil the fun!) but im inclined to think that the FZ200, would produce the better quality images?

Putting aside the SX240 point and shoot, which I only used for the flowers and can't use an achromat, I was using the same achromats (Canon 500D, Raynox 150 and Raynox 250) with all four of the cameras - three bridge cameras (Canon S3is, Canon SX10is, and Panasonic FZ200) and one micro-four thirds camera (Panasonic G3). On the face of it, I would have expected the FZ200 to produce better image quality than the SX10is or S3is, because it is more modern. I would have expected the G3 to produce better images than any of the bridge camera because it has a sensor 9 times the area of their sensors. But it didn't work out like that.

Part of the reason for the G3 not being (for my purposes) noticeably better than the bridge cameras has to do with my liking deep dof and preferring to use natural llight. (I do use flash quite a lot these days, but I still prefer to use natural light.)

I like as much dof as I can get for my close-ups of invertebrates, and I typically use the smallest available aperture I can, which is f/8 on the bridge cameras and f/22 on the G3. f/8 on a bridge camera produces about the same dof (and about the same loss in detail from diffraction) as f/22 on the G3 (or for that matter an APS-C camera like yours).

Using a small aperture, and using natural light, often leads to slow shutter speeds. For example, suppose I get a shutter speed of 1/20 sec when using f/8 with ISO 100 on the FZ200. I don't really want to be using a slower shutter speed, so if I take the same shot using the G3, and want to get the same dof, I would have to use ISO 800 (with 1/20 sec and f/22). And in fact, ISO 800 turned out to be my baseline ISO much of the time with the G3 because I am often in the realm of pretty slow shutter speeds. And in terms of IQ, ISO 800 on the G3 is fairly similar to ISO 100 on the FZ200 or SX10.

So, in practical terms, a lot of the time I didn't gain much from using the G3. And once I got the FZ200 I realised that I found it much easier to use than the G3. I find the G3 quite fiddly to use, and it doesn't have much by way of user-definable functions for buttons. In contrast I find the FZ200 is much more straightforward to use, with the controls I need readily to hand without needing to dive into menus. This is partly because it has much better provision for user-definable buttons than the G3.

The FZ200 turns out to have some other advantages (for me). You can sync the flash at any shutter speed, which is great for fill flash on bright days. The G3 only syncs up to 1/160 sec, and beyond that you have to get into FP/HSS flash, which I find a pain to use. I mount the achromats on a tube which provides some protection for the camera lens out in the field against dust, pollen and dew. It also means that I can zoom in and out between different framing/magnification for a particular scene (which I do a lot) without moving the camera. Physically, the FZ200 sits more firmly on the focus rail compared to the G3, which has to be mounted on a little platform to give the lens sufficient clearance above the focus rail, and the little platform and hence the G3 tend to rotate.

There is more as between the G3 and the FZ200, but that will do for now! You get the idea.

I suspect there is another reason why the cameras appeared to produce rather similar results; the post processing I use and the fact that I rarely do big crops and I limit the size of the processed images to 1100 pixels high for screen viewing. I reprocessed all the originals of those images (mainly JPEGs btw) at the same time, fairly recently, using my current post processing techniques. It turns out that images from all the cameras contained enough information to produce half-decent images at the limited size I produce, even the 6 megapixel S3is.

I had the FZ28, before i got the FZ45, in some ways my old FZ28 could out perform the newer FZ45! My mistake, was that i should have gone for the FZ35/38, because that had the 12 megapixal sensor, where as the FZ45, got caught up in the "more mega pixels is better" game/race.
My FZ45 has the 14 megapixel sensor, which makes it a poor performer in dull light. In fact, once you shoot at ISO's beyond 250/300, the image quality is very poor! Hence the reason i use the camera in Macro Mode sub-setting "Objects", because in this mode, you can shoot at ISO 80! with good light. Although at ISO 80, you will have problems with too much light, so its finding a good balance, and shooting plenty of images, of chosen subjects.
If i can set up the FZ200, to capture images, as my FZ45 can(with the help of a Raynox macro lens!) then im considering getting an FZ200 sometime in the future. Since Panasonic dropped the megapixels back down for the FZ200 sensor, I was under the impression that it was capable of producing better quality images, in low light situations...an area that my FZ45 fails in.

You need to be cautious about that. The FZ200 has a reputation for being particularly noisy. Is there any chance you could borrow an FZ200 for an hour or two? Or I could provide you with some higher ISO (JPEG and/or RAW) examples if you like. I always shoot RAW with the FZ200, which avoids the detail-squashing effect of JPEG noise reduction on the noisy images. I have noise reduction for the RAW files fairly well sorted so I can get the combination of noise control and detail retention that suits me. This quite often includes using two layers in CS2 (after the main processing is done in Lightroom) to selectively denoise backgrounds. So, given the way you work, as described in your Macro/Close up, of Snake, Lizard, Butterfly thread, the FZ200 might not be the right tool for you.

One thing you might want to do is to hang around the Panasonic Compact Camera Talk forum at dpreview, see what is being done with the FZ200, and see what settings people are using for shooting JPEG. there has been a lot of discussion about that over there, and it is a very friendly and helpful forum (unlike some of the other forums on that site). Some Flickr FZ200 groups might be of some use too.

Just to throw a spanner in the works, i have also owned a Nikon D5100, and i now have a nikon D7000...i also recently bought myself a 105mm macro lens for the D7000, so im hoping this combination will allow me to capture better quality macro's, than my humble FZ45!!!

You might do better to use the D7000 and the 105 than consider a new bridge camera to use with the Raynox. At least give it a good go for a few months before thinking about another bridge?
 
I have to agree with you, in what you have said about your camera test results, sometimes "newer models" do not perform as one expects them to, when compared to the "older models" that one is used to using. I had a feeling your test had surprise results, rather than what should have been, or expected to have been!
At first, when i upgraded my old FZ28 to that of the FZ45, i was disappointed with the new camera. I took both cameras out into the field, and tried to take photos of the same subjects, under the same conditions. Incidently, the same thing happened with my Nikon D5100 and my Nikon D7000, same type of testing, with similar results. However, after several months of getting used to the newer DSLR, i could then see just what an improvement it was, compared to the older camera.
Back to my bridge cameras then, because the FZ45 was not as good as the FZ28, in low light conditions, i had to work around that, and shoot in better light. Once i put some time/effort into it, i started to produce some good images.
I suppose the point Im trying to make is, find a camera(or camera's) that work for you, are comfortable in the hand, do what you want them to do, with the chosen subjects/styles that you yourself are interesting in. If you decide to upgrade, then dont expect a massive improvement over your trusty older models either, and work around the camera's weak points, to produce the types of images you want.

Bridge camera's are great in good light, add something like a Raynox macro lens to them, and they can produce some really nice images.
When the light is not so good, then use a DSLR. I think taking both types of camera with you, out in the field, you should have all bases covered.
Up until recently, i didnt have a dedicated macro lens for my DSLR, as a result my FZ45(coupled with the raynox) would produce better images(but only in good light). Im looking forward to putting the DSLR(with macro lens) up against the Bridge camera(with raynox) this season, to see which set up will produce the best results. Remembering that my subjects are - UK wild reptiles, Butterflies, Insects.
The bridge camera/raynox combo is good, but you have to get very close to your subjects, in order to make the shot. The DSLR with a 105mm macro lens, will enable me to to shoot macro at a more controlled/comfortable distance.

Onto the FZ200, because of my subjects/style of photography, i will always want a super zoom bridge camera, and the FZ200 appears to be one of the best out there at this time. Im in no rush though, i dont impulse buy, i dont "chase the newer models" as they "hit the shelves". My FZ45 is still working well(apart from a sticky zoom lever). Unfortunately, i dont have access to have a play(in real terms) with one, but Im pretty sure I'd make the FZ200 perform well enough, for my chosen subjects.

Throws another spanner in the works... Have you ever had any experience at all, with the Fuji FinePix S200 EXR???
Its quite an old bridge camera, however, there is an opinion(or two) that it was one of the best image producing bridge camera's ever made?!
Throw a Raynox macro lens on this Fuji, and im pretty sure it would work very well.
Ive never owned one myself, but its a camera im thinking of getting!

Edit- thanks for the "heads up" about the Panasonic Compact Camera talk on dpreview too, cheers for that, I'll give that look.
 
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