Campaign for Critique

[u8myufo]

It is your right to disagree Lynne, however we will have to agree to differ on this one. Nobody is trying to force anyone to do anything. Through personal experience it can be very disheartening to spend the time to post a picture explaining what the vision and settings were, maybe what you like/dislike about it and maybe ask for specific feedback, only to receive none. If this happens repeatedly then you stop posting, then stop visting and so forth. All we are trying to do is maybe encourage people to put their head above the parapet and be specific, also to encourage people to say why they like a shot, rather than just smply saying "nice". I for one do not add crit to receive thanks or likes, but hopefully to help others.

You misunderdstand Chris, I am not saying you or anybody else offering to help is being forced to do it. I am saying that you cannot force those that do not want to bother themselves to give C&C, whether they see others doing it or not. And since being a member on here for 6 yrs I have seen and been involved with this topic of crit umpteen times, and all the valid points you mention have been discussed hundreds of times. Yes it would be ideal if a lot more gave a bit more in depth critique, it would be great if more people explained about their picture when they post it up, it would be great if after being given some advice the OP would acknowledge it, it would be great if you pointed something out that the OP did not take offence, it would be great if everytime you gave your opinion about something and tried to discuss it with follow up posts that people don`t think you are just trying to cause a Fk`ng arguement. But the reality of it all is, none of that is ever going to happen.

 

[u8myufo]

The alternative is that the sections is left starts to stagnate, newbies feel discouraged from adding as they dont feel their image is good enough and it becomes a gallery of excellence.

Well Chris that is exactly how I felt when I started life in the Bird section, but it gave me something to aim for, most of my first post were either ignored or I was getting very little feedback. I improved by reading the feedback being given to the more experienced people. Perhaps as an option then, instead of molly cuddling people too much, all newbies have there own section for the first 60 pictures they post up, they have a few guidelins set out for them, what to expect from any C&C that will be given to them. They must also show that they can make the efort to give C&C themselves, then we can release them to the hounds

 

[ChrisHeathcote]

There is a difference between forcing and encouraging. It is easy to fall into bad habits etc and sometimes it needs a nudge to put things back on track. It maybe all very idealistic, but forgive us for wanting and hoping to try and improve things. Ultimately the point of a forum is that it belongs to everybody. It may be a case that some people do not feel qualified to give an opinion, maybe they may just think you know what, all they've done is say why they do/dont like it. I'll have a go. Maybe somebody will receive crit that theyve having previously done and decide to "pay it forward"

 

[PMN]

rather than to select an "elite" few regular contributors which would be counter productive.

You misunderstand. No-one's being selected and you're the only one to have brought the term "elite" into it, you're on completely the wrong track if that's how you're thinking about this. People are, of their own free will, saying they can dedicate some time to giving critique. Being selected doesn't come into it, and elitism certainly doesn't come into it.

 

[ChrisHeathcote]

Well Chris that is exactly how I felt when I started life in the Bird section, but it gave me something to aim for, most of my first post were either ignored or I was getting very little feedback. I improved by reading the feedback being given to the more experienced people. Perhaps as an option then, instead of molly cuddling people too much, all newbies have there own section for the first 60 pictures they post up, they have a few guidelins set out for them, what to expect from any C&C that will be given to them. They must also show that they can make the efort to give C&C themselves, then we can release them to the hounds

Not a bad suggestion, or maybe a way to distinguish newbies. I cant remember whether it was this or another forum that used to have a catchline under your name, ie Newbie/Getting Comfortable etc.

As to your first point, do you think it would have helped you more, if people had given you more feedback on your pictures rather than having to trawl through the others trying to find relevant info.

 

[JakeT1992]

I'm going to be honest Matt, I think the idea of 'critters' is an awful one. Every person who uses those section of the forum should be encouraged to give crit and leave photos. I don't think committing to "doing 3 a day" is the answer. An environment where every member is encouraged and feels able to leave crit is to be encouraged, but a named list is not the way to do that.

I agree, I give critique quite often, but I don't feel the need for a special name or a badge or a sig saying so.
This thread should have gone down the line of promoting the need for critique, while giving advice on how to do so and encouraging members to do so.
I rarely stray from the landscape section, as this is what I know, and offer critique as and when I have time, but I don't want to be called a 'critter'.
I think by making a list not only will it put some people off of posting critique, but it will give some posters the view that unless you're a critter your views on their image doesn't count.

 

[Trev4]

You misunderstand. No-one's being selected and you're the only one to have brought the term "elite" into it, you're on completely the wrong track if that's how you're thinking about this. People are, of their own free will, saying they can dedicate some time to giving critique. Being selected doesn't come into it, and elitism certainly doesn't come into it.

No, I don't think I am misunderstanding in the least, however, reading back perhaps my choice of words wasn't right, I certainly wasn't suggesting that the members who have elected to take part in this scheme are in an elite group, if you got that impression I apologise, it really wasn't meant that way. I was referring to some previous posts where it was inferred that the outcome could be a few members posting critique, and other members, mainly newer ones, not feeling they need to bother because the critters will do it. That of course isn't the purpose of this idea, in fact its 180 degrees out of sync with what we are trying to achieve.
If you re read my comment, I did state that such a system of selected critters would be counter productive, I wasn't suggesting that it should be the norm. I also was suggesting that the least we can do is to jointly give it a try, rather than the often 'British' way of saying, "its wrong, but there's nothing we can do about it" which only breeds apathy. I do hope this clears up the misunderstanding.

 

[MWHCVT]

Some decent points made since I last logged in though I have to be honest the general apathy of its been raised lots of times before and nothing's changed is disappointing, it's true it has been raised before but before declaring its not going to work at least give it chance to try

As to forcing people to give critique that's not the intention neither is it the intention to create a core of elite members one of the most important thing about the forum is that we are all equal why would I or anyone want that to change, all that anyone who volunteers is doing is trying their best to offer quality critique that adds value to threads, and the forum in general, in the hope however idealistic it may be that members will see more decent critique and also then take more of an effort when they post there own comments on photos

 

[u8myufo]

Not a bad suggestion, or maybe a way to distinguish newbies. I cant remember whether it was this or another forum that used to have a catchline under your name, ie Newbie/Getting Comfortable etc.

As to your first point, do you think it would have helped you more, if people had given you more feedback on your pictures rather than having to trawl through the others trying to find relevant info.

I don`t know as everybody has their own way of going about things, at the time I used to aspire to Cedric aka CT. I followed the work he did as well as the advise he would give people, for ages he never past comment on my work, not once did it ever deter me, in fact it made me more determined to prove I could produce something a bit half decent. Then the day came when he made a comment on one of my pictures, it was more of an acknowledgment that I had reached a stage in my photography proving that I had a bit of a clue what I was doing. Then the real hardened C&C from him began

 

[DowntonMini]

I agree anymore than 3 photos really makes it hard work to over highly details critique night my fellow critter

Opps sorry I have been quilty of this posting multiple shots in one post Sorry guys will try not to do it agian. If people do have more then 3 photos are they better off starting an entirly new thread or watign for the first ones to be critiqued and then posting more in the same thread?

Going to stand in the corner now ands think about what I've done

 

[MWHCVT]

Opps sorry I have been quilty of this posting multiple shots in one post Sorry guys will try not to do it agian. If people do have more then 3 photos are they better off starting an entirly new thread or watign for the first ones to be critiqued and then posting more in the same thread?

Going to stand in the corner now ands think about what I've done

Mark trust me we are not picking on people who post a number of photos, add as many photos as you want critique on but consider some times it might be worth starting a couple of threads and sharing the photos

 

[PMN]

I was referring to some previous posts where it was inferred that the outcome could be a few members posting critique, and other members, mainly newer ones, not feeling they need to bother because the critters will do it. That of course isn't the purpose of this idea, in fact its 180 degrees out of sync with what we are trying to achieve.

Naturally that's a possible outcome but it's the worst one. Conversely (assuming we don't have phase cancellations) having at least some guaranteed critique on images that would otherwise have gone unnoticed might encourage those who wouldn't have commented otherwise to do so.

I also was suggesting that the least we can do is to jointly give it a try, rather than the often 'British' way of saying, "its wrong, but there's nothing we can do about it" which only breeds apathy.

Surely the fact we're now 7 pages into this rather lively discussion shows we're trying to do something about it?

 

[DowntonMini]

Mark trust me we are not picking on people who post a number of photos, add as many photos as you want critique on but consider some times it might be worth starting a couple of threads and sharing the photos

Don't worry Matt I didn't take it personally. I normally add a link to the sets the photos are from (if they are part of a set) so people can see the other photos if they want to.

On the subject of people posting for critique and then not responding after people have taken the time to look at their photos and give there opinion I would always thank people no matter what after all without their help how can I improve my photos?

Oh and as I improve I will try and give critique on other peoples photos.

Ps my suction support should arrive today so I can try out the moving light trails again.

 

[MWHCVT]

Don't worry Matt I didn't take it personally. I normally add a link to the sets the photos are from (if they are part of a set) so people can see the other photos if they want to.

On the subject of people posting for critique and then not responding after people have taken the time to look at their photos and give there opinion I would always thank people no matter what after all without their help how can I improve my photos?

Oh and as I improve I will try and give critique on other peoples photos.

Ps my suction support should arrive today so I can try out the moving light trails again.

I look forward to seeing your next photos that mound should allow you to get a much sharper interior of the car

And it was the critique I received on this forum that really helped me and all I want to see is that continue and hopefully improve

 

[Trev4]

Surely the fact we're now 7 pages into this rather lively discussion shows we're trying to do something about it?

Paul, your trying to argue with the converted, I've supported this thread from the beginning. The reason I made the point was because of the few negative views that have been posted stating that it wont make any difference, until we try we wont know.

 

[PMN]

Paul, your trying to argue with the converted, I've supported this thread from the beginning. The reason I made the point was because of the few negative views that have been posted stating that it wont make any difference, until we try we wont know.

From how I read it you really did seem to be saying the opposite but fair enough.

 

[simonblue]

To be honest if i put some photos up,and someone just said nice photos or lovely photos i would be pleased,that someone liked my shots

 

[MWHCVT]

Right lets try and get things back on track a little thus far we've 9 volunteers committed to extending quality/in depth/considered/detailed critique which ever you feel is appropriate but we still needs lots more members to volunteer as critters, there is many forums not yet covered so if you want to join this push to improve the standard of critique on the forum please do shout up

Matt

 

[bass_junkie83]

I have just had a quick glance over the feedback forums to see if I could contribute while I had a bit of spare time.
I normally view the forum through new posts so not really noticed this before.

Looking only at those threads with zero or few replies, what I did notice was a lot of shots that I don't think should be in the feedback forum.

Photos followed by comments from the posters such as "just grabbed this shot while I was walking the dog, wasn't really trying" or "took this on my phone while chowing down on a big mac". Ok, I may have made them up to save quoting the actual comments I read as I have no desire to name anyone, but in essence what these people are saying is "I didn't really put any effort in, but how can I improve?"

Well the answer is, put some effort in.

If your saying you could have done better if you tried, then how do I know any advice I may have isn't something that you already know, and possibly would have done if you were trying?

Maybe these few threads had no replies because of that, maybe I had a bad run. But if I am running down a forum thinking, "no, can't critique that one, or that one, or that one" I'll eventually give up trying.

Leave these shots in 'photos for pleasure' and just submit those that you really want critiqued.

 

[MWHCVT]

I have just had a quick glance over the feedback forums to see if I could contribute while I had a bit of spare time.
I normally view the forum through new posts so not really noticed this before.

Looking only at those threads with zero or few replies, what I did notice was a lot of shots that I don't think should be in the feedback forum.

Photos followed by comments from the posters such as "just grabbed this shot while I was walking the dog, wasn't really trying" or "took this on my phone while chowing down on a big mac". Ok, I may have made them up to save quoting the actual comments I read as I have no desire to name anyone, but in essence what these people are saying is "I didn't really put any effort in, but how can I improve?"

Well the answer is, put some effort in.

If your saying you could have done better if you tried, then how do I know any advice I may have isn't something that you already know, and possibly would have done if you were trying?

Maybe these few threads had no replies because of that, maybe I had a bad run. But if I am running down a forum thinking, "no, can't critique that one, or that one, or that one" I'll eventually give up trying.

Leave these shots in 'photos for pleasure' and just submit those that you really want critiqued.

It is certainly the case that ideally some photos should in reality be in P4P but as it stands there is still a lot in the sections where feedback can be offered remember just because people haven't directly asked for feedback if its in the feedback and critique section then unless specified not, it's fair game for feedback...though I like yourself do find it hard to critique some photos...

 

[kennysarmy]

So what you are saying is you can have as many volunteers as you like but the issue is with the original posters putting their images in the wrong forum?

Has nt that already been stated throughout this whole discsussion....

Where is the input from the MODS......

Would love to hear their opinion.......

 

[MWHCVT]

So what you are saying is you can have as many volunteers as you like but the issue is with the original posters putting their images in the wrong forum?

Has nt that already been stated throughout this whole discsussion....

Where is the input from the MODS......

Would love to hear their opinion.......

No Jeff what I'm saying is sometimes photos are hard to offer critique on as you wonder if the person actually wanted feedback when they don't appear to be valuing their own work with phrases of I just happened to catch this or just a quick snap etc...also other photos are hard to critique such as one that I offered critique on recently which features an effect I find utterly pointless, as I think it just looks silly...this is such a grey area though

 

[ancient_mariner]

I understand where Matt's coming from. I posted a couple of pictures in Landscapes with the critique tag on the post and an explanation: they were carefully set up, processed etc, and after 60 views I got one comment that said it did nothing for them and had too much black in it, subsequently followed by another that said the agreed with the first comment. I'm glad to have got a reply, but I'd hoped for a little more.

 

[MWHCVT]

I understand where Matt's coming from. I posted a couple of pictures in Landscapes with the critique tag on the post and an explanation: they were carefully set up, processed etc, and after 60 views I got one comment that said it did nothing for them and had too much black in it, subsequently followed by another that said the agreed with the first comment. I'm glad to have got a reply, but I'd hoped for a little more.

Indeed Toni and hopefully if we can get enough people to support an partake in this effort we can help to make things better in our community (TP)

 

[sbowler579]

if we can get enough people to support an partake in this (TP)

I shall try to partake Matt, usually do most days anyway, but am as guilty as many sometimes in not offering the best critique.

 

[MWHCVT]

I shall try to partake Matt, usually do most days anyway, but am as guilty as many sometimes in not offering the best critique.

Wonderful Steve, all add you to the volunteers list in the OP will there be any area you'll concentrate on or just across the forum, note not suggesting you'll be tied down to a forum just trying to get as much cover on the sections as possible and it's always going to be easier in sections you enjoy

 

[sbowler579]

I do like landscape and architectural genres overall. Thanks Matt.

 

[MWHCVT]

I do like landscape and architectural genres overall. Thanks Matt.

I'll get that added it's great to have your support in this as lets be honest the more support the great the chances of actually making a positive difference to the forum

 

[MWHCVT]

Well the weekend is upon it's time to really drive this forward, we already have a few volunteers out there taking the critique to the forums but for this to be a success we really need to have people covering every section there are no demands here its not a case of you must to x each and every day, this isn't meant to be a chore it's supposed to be a pleasure

 

[Pookeyhead]

7 pages.... only just ventured in here... can you summarise what you propose to save me reading 7 pages?

 

[Deleted member 67219]

I had a look... but struggling to find stuff to critique...

 

[Pookeyhead]

Just read the thread a little more... seen what's happening with the first post. Gotcha.

I spend all day critting work... LOL I do what I can.

I don't see why anyone should be limiting crit to particular areas though. A good photographer should be able to offer critique on a wide range of images, regardless of subject matter. I offer crit on stuff that for some reason or another grabs my attention. For example.. just given crit on a landscape I'd never ordinarily look at just because the post was written in 20 point blue italic. LOL

I don't think that will catch on as a means of attracting crit though.

 

[PMN]

I don't see why anyone should be limiting crit to particular areas though. A good photographer should be able to offer critique on a wide range of images, regardless of subject matter.

I nearly mentioned that the other day but became distracted for whatever reason. I agree, basic things that make the difference between a good or bad photo don't really rely on genre, they're more to do with principles that apply to most kinds of photography. An understanding of the subject can help sometimes but to me it's not as important as people often think.

 

[Pookeyhead]

If it's a way to just organise peopel in to some sort of Critique squad, I suppose it makes sense though... a co-ordinated campaign

 

[MWHCVT]

Just read the thread a little more... seen what's happening with the first post. Gotcha.

I spend all day critting work... LOL I do what I can.

I don't see why anyone should be limiting crit to particular areas though. A good photographer should be able to offer critique on a wide range of images, regardless of subject matter. I offer crit on stuff that for some reason or another grabs my attention. For example.. just given crit on a landscape I'd never ordinarily look at just because the post was written in 20 point blue italic. LOL

I don't think that will catch on as a means of attracting crit though.

Nobody is being limited to a specific area if they don't wish, the main reason for asking/suggesting people select areas they are particularly interested in, is because I'd rather people concentrated on stuff that was of interest to them as its less likely to become a chore for them

 

[PMN]

To be honest I think it might be more balanced if people did offer critique across genres, otherwise people may only end up getting a very limited number of opinions on certain types of shot and that's not necessarily a good thing. I'm sure those who've stated dedicated genres will end up venturing across into others, I hope so anyway!

 

[ancient_mariner]

To me, critique requires at least a reasonable understanding of the particular area being critiqued, so I might be cautious about offering opinions and advice on studio lighting techniques, for example. I'd like to be a bit more useful that saying 'the pic doesn't work for me because the lighting isn't so good'.

 

[Marcel]

Critique means anything from indepth dissection of every single aspect of the photo, right down to a "I don't like it because her feet are at a funny angle. If she straightens her feet and you remove that empty crisp packet from the floor, it will look much better"

There's no need to read too much into it, just help your fellow photographers with comments!

 

[MWHCVT]

To me, critique requires at least a reasonable understanding of the particular area being critiqued, so I might be cautious about offering opinions and advice on studio lighting techniques, for example. I'd like to be a bit more useful that saying 'the pic doesn't work for me because the lighting isn't so good'.

This is very much my feeling, there are areas I've not particular interest in though have the basic knowledge to be able to comment on them if I wanted but there all also areas Ive little to no knowledge on the area and even less on how to shoot it...so I do limit myself on where I comment is some respects but most of my limits are simply because Ive no interest in the subject matter

 

[PMN]

To me, critique requires at least a reasonable understanding of the particular area being critiqued, so I might be cautious about offering opinions and advice on studio lighting techniques, for example. I'd like to be a bit more useful that saying 'the pic doesn't work for me because the lighting isn't so good'.

I wouldn't comment on anything using studio lighting either as I have no specific knowledge of it, but I see no reason why a knowledgable and experienced photographer shouldn't be able to comment on a street portrait just as easily as a landscape. Even if they don't 'specialise' in both the underlying principles are pretty much the same.