Candid photography involving children in public

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Scuzi

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There is a discussion on this going on over on another forum and I thought it would be interesting to hear your views on the matter.

After a member posted some candid photographs over on another forum, the issue of legality and morality when taking candid pictures involving children kept raising it's head. The images were taken in a park and the parents were with the children in the images.

What are your views on the subject? Would you be comfortable taking candid pictures which involved children in a public park for example? If so why and if not, why not?

Are there any specific legal issues or grey areas which may affect photographers? Does the law differ in England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland?

Discuss :)
 
In short no. I have seen threads locked down on other forums though when this is debated. One person got irate as he was shooting children in a childrens park queueing for ice creams with a long lens. He couldn't understand why people were getting upset with him !

I personally steer well clear of candids as it's too messy and can cause people to get very irate.
 
For me it's a no no. Having a camera and being legal doesn't make it OK IMHO
 
If you read the UK Photographer's Rights guide there is no law against taking photos of children in public (obviously provided the images aren't sexual in nature).

There is one grey area relating to if a child being photographed is under a Child Protection Order and the photograph allows someone to identifiy the location of the child. The grey area is made even greyer as the offence is not made by the photographer but the person "allowing" the photograph to be taken.

Personally I don't feel it is morally wrong to take candid photos of children yet I would not feel comfortable doing so without the permission from the carer. I think this comes from the culture we live and the fact that is easy to brand someone a paedophile without any evidence. Ultimately I think this stems from the 24hr media and the demand to sensationalise everything rather than sticking to the facts.
 
When we're talking about the legality of taking photos of people in public, then adults and children are treated the same. The only time an issue would come into it is if the photo is indecent, or if the child is subject to a child protection order, in which case IIRC there's nothing to stop you taking a photo of the child, just what you can do with it afterwards.

When out in public, we cannot reasonably expect privacy, therefore someone taking a photo of your or your kids isn't an invasion of that privacy.

The question here should be a moral one, rather than a legal one.
Should we as photographers refrain from taking photos just because there are children in the frame? No we shouldn't! Why should we? What we DO with those photos is a matter thats rightly open for discussion.

I personally respect the wishes of other parents who may not want their child to be photographed in that if a child enters a scene Im about to shoot, quite often, out of respect, I lower my camera, and wait.
If I want to take a photo including a child, then if the situation warrants it, then I will.
If a parent should raise an objection, then I would happily delete the image of them and their kids.

I speak as a parent too, as I would expect others to offer me the same courtesy, but even as a parent, when out in public, people may take photos of my children. As long as it's harmless, then why should I care? Its a photo for chuffs sake.
 
I went for a walk the other day with the camera, and walked past a playground full of kids. I made no attempt to take any pictures, but the looks I was getting from parents :(:(
 
Marcel said:
When we're talking about the legality of taking photos of people in public, then adults and children are treated the same. The only time an issue would come into it is if the photo is indecent, or if the child is subject to a child protection order, in which case IIRC there's nothing to stop you taking a photo of the child, just what you can do with it afterwards.

When out in public, we cannot reasonably expect privacy, therefore someone taking a photo of your or your kids isn't an invasion of that privacy.

The question here should be a moral one, rather than a legal one.
Should we as photographers refrain from taking photos just because there are children in the frame? No we shouldn't! Why should we? What we DO with those photos is a matter thats rightly open for discussion.

I personally respect the wishes of other parents who may not want their child to be photographed in that if a child enters a scene Im about to shoot, quite often, out of respect, I lower my camera, and wait.
If I want to take a photo including a child, then if the situation warrants it, then I will.
If a parent should raise an objection, then I would happily delete the image of them and their kids.

I speak as a parent too, as I would expect others to offer me the same courtesy, but even as a parent, when out in public, people may take photos of my children. As long as it's harmless, then why should I care? Its a photo for chuffs sake.
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Spot on. There's no legal problem, and is no normative problem morally. That said, I think practically speaking the hassle you'd receive makes it simply not worth trying—personally, anyway.
 
*Your on the beach...its busy. Decide to take some shots of the family sat on the beach enjoying white bread ham sarnies with sand. You take the shot and in the composistion there are someone elses kids in the background.

*You set yourself up on the beach..its busy... to take a shot of everyone enjoing themselves on the beach enjoying lunch, there is token dad chasing after the Lilo in the wind and there are kids in compositsion.

Whats the difference?...do we PS them out of the image?

Whilst I respect peoples privacy and not everyone likes having pics taken...I think Jo Public has become somewhat over sensitised by media stories of the last years. A big consideration is about your behaviour and the perceptions of others towards you and the way you are behaving.

I personally avoid getting near the situation....
 
Betty said:
I went for a walk the other day with the camera, and walked past a playground full of kids. I made no attempt to take any pictures, but the looks I was getting from parents :(:(
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And you're a woman!!!!

I hope!
 
Marcel said:
When we're talking about the legality of taking photos of people in public, then adults and children are treated the same. The only time an issue would come into it is if the photo is indecent, or if the child is subject to a child protection order, in which case IIRC there's nothing to stop you taking a photo of the child, just what you can do with it afterwards.

When out in public, we cannot reasonably expect privacy, therefore someone taking a photo of your or your kids isn't an invasion of that privacy.

The question here should be a moral one, rather than a legal one.
Should we as photographers refrain from taking photos just because there are children in the frame? No we shouldn't! Why should we? What we DO with those photos is a matter thats rightly open for discussion.

I personally respect the wishes of other parents who may not want their child to be photographed in that if a child enters a scene Im about to shoot, quite often, out of respect, I lower my camera, and wait.
If I want to take a photo including a child, then if the situation warrants it, then I will.
If a parent should raise an objection, then I would happily delete the image of them and their kids.

I speak as a parent too, as I would expect others to offer me the same courtesy, but even as a parent, when out in public, people may take photos of my children. As long as it's harmless, then why should I care? Its a photo for chuffs sake.
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Spot on that Michael !!

Just as I would have wrote it !!
 
I was sitting next to a family with kids the other day whilst out in Liverpool & the parent enquired about what & why I was photographing the people walking past, asked if it was illegal to do so & when I said no & that the only people I won't photograph candidly were children, she told me to take some photos of her kids to show them how cheeky they were being :LOL: It was a refreshing change to meet parents that obviously cared about their kids but still reserved judgement until after they had actually got their facts straight & chatted with me.

To be honest though I won't shy away from taking photos of kids but will normally ask permission & have no problem deleting images if asked to.

Edit: After reading the replies above, I will add that I would just go ahead & take the beach photo - couldn't be bothered with all that cloning :LOL:
 
The photos that Scuzi refers to were taken with a zoom lens though and the one of the little girl on her own is pretty much full frame. It's not even fully in focus because I'd imagine that the photographer did a quick candid shot rather than compose the picture correctly so he obviously knew that the subject was taboo.
 
I would ask permission of the guardian, as I would prefer it if someone asked me if it was okay to take a photo of my child, I like to treat people the way that I like to be treat. It just seems nicer, and courteous to ask. Although I imagine you might get better candid photographs without the kids knowing - so I can understand people checking it is okay afterwards.
 
I dont think the OP is talking about accident photography where children are in the background or walk into the frame.. thats unavoidable and part of the scene.

Going out to take pictures of children playing in a public place without the consent or as the OP suggests without them even knowing is wrong. You may want to dress it up as OK and theres some very poor excuses in this thread.. but it's simply wrong and I would challenge anyone I saw doing it even if it wasn't my kids playing.

Like I say. just beacuse it is legal doesn't make it right. and again... IMHO of course :)
 
rich_eason said:
*Your on the beach...its busy. Decide to take some shots of the family sat on the beach enjoying white bread ham sarnies with sand. You take the shot and in the composistion there are someone elses kids in the background.

*You set yourself up on the beach..its busy... to take a shot of everyone enjoing themselves on the beach enjoying lunch, there is token dad chasing after the Lilo in the wind and there are kids in compositsion.

Whats the difference?...do we PS them out of the image?

Whilst I respect peoples privacy and not everyone likes having pics taken...I think Jo Public has become somewhat over sensitised by media stories of the last years. A big consideration is about your behaviour and the perceptions of others towards you and the way you are behaving.

I personally avoid getting near the situation....
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Ah but thats someone encroaching the frame of a shot of your little irk's and not intentionally shooting someone elses kids. Different beast IMHO.

You're right though, it's a difficult situation :(
 
KIPAX said:
Going out to take pictures of children playing in a public place without the consent or as the OP suggests without them even knowing is wrong. You may want to dress it up as OK and theres some very poor excuses in this thread.. but it's simply wrong and I would challenge anyone I saw doing it even if it wasn't my kids playing.
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Question - At the park or beach, whatever... some kids are playing catch, football, ring o roses. Would you challenge someone who was simply watching the kids play?
 
KIPAX said:
Going out to take pictures of children playing in a public place without the consent or as the OP suggests without them even knowing is wrong.
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Why?

Is it still wrong if it's a picture of adults relaxing in a park on a hot day? What about a picture of someone elses dog digging a hole on a beach? Is the issue - in your mind - one of trespass, in effect?
 
I have some candid shots of children enjoying themselves taken on my trip to Venice.
They are real close ups so very clear.
I have no qualms about posting them (and probably will).
I dont see a problem, the children to me were just part of the crowd having fun, all are fully clothed, and with adults who were aware of me shooting them (though I didnt ask)... it was carnival time!
I would have asked if the parents has shown any concern, or Id have just walked away, depending on my intutition.

Would I be so relaxed about shooting unknown children so closely in this country? Even at carnival time the answer is probably not... and I personally find that rather sad!
 
pxl8 said:
Question - At the park or beach, whatever... some kids are playing catch, football, ring o roses. Would you challenge someone who was simply watching the kids play?
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I wouldnt challenge them but I would wonder what the hell they were doing.... more if it were a man than a woman.

But isnt that just sad..........watching children play is wonderful for most people... reminding them of those magic times when their own children were small.

It should be quite an innocent thing to do.
But I dont think it will ever be again. :(
 
Witch said:
Why?

Is it still wrong if it's a picture of adults relaxing in a park on a hot day? What about a picture of someone elses dog digging a hole on a beach? Is the issue - in your mind - one of trespass, in effect?
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You can't compare an adult with a child. adults have choices. children don't and as such you, me or anyone else should not be "using" them. because that is exactly what you are doing. watching, taking pictures. it's all about you using those children for your own pleasure.
 
KIPAX said:
it's all about you using those children for your own pleasure.
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Im sorry but I disagree with you, and your wording makes everyone who ever points a camera at laughing child sound like a pervert!

Also, If you take a candid shot of an adult, who is blissfully unaware... where is the choice for them?
 
KIPAX said:
You can't compare an adult with a child. adults have choices. children don't and as such you, me or anyone else should not be "using" them. because that is exactly what you are doing. watching, taking pictures. it's all about you using those children for your own pleasure.
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That's an interesting viewpoint - the logical conclusion is that parents are even worse then - getting pleasure from watching their own children play would be even more wrong wouldn't it?

I'd also question how an adult has any more choice than a child if the photographer or watcher is doing so candidly?
 
any selective quoting can be used to make it look bad.

At the end of the day though thats what someone is doing. your using children for your own pleasure.. beit the pleasure you get from watching or the pleasure you get from looking at or sharing the pictures. That doesn't have to mean sexual pleasure..

As for the difference.. adults have the choice of being in a public place.

At the end of the day its down to who feels what. I feel its wrong. Others feel it's OK. It's what makes the world go around I guess.. But anything involving children is always going to get a more emotive response isn't it?
 
What a wonderful world we live in.

Remember all a Police Officer needs to make an arrest is suspicion. If someone called the nines and said there was a man/lady in a park taking photos of children I am pretty sure a Police Officer would attend. If that PC then suspects something to be dodgey.....

As an ex PC I never had this kind of call to deal with. Its a tough call to make. The Law V Common Sense is the reason why I left as too many times the text book aproach is expected from the PC. But thats a whole different story.

SB
 
Ok, KIPAX apologies for selectively quoting you...
but please enlighten me then as to what is so wrong (pervert issue aside here) from taking pleasure in watching children at play?
 
pxl8 said:
That's an interesting viewpoint - the logical conclusion is that parents are even worse then - getting pleasure from watching their own children play would be even more wrong wouldn't it?
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good grief this is getting silly now :(

Are you suggesting that the pleasure a mother gets with her children should be alllowed with a total stranger and her children ??
 
My friends dad got massively hassled by the police taking photos on a beach of the sea. He's studying a course at college and it was for a college project on his photography course but as there were kids in the sea a group of disgruntled parents took it upon themselves to seize him and call the police. It was only after they rang the college to confirm this he was released despite him protesting his innocence calmly. It really shook him up and he's been taking photos for years and years.

Personally I think his treatment was disgusting, I can appreciate peoples concern but whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty.

I'd agree with some posts on here suggesting its not worth the hassle.
 
robbys82 said:
My friends dad got massively hassled by the police taking photos on a beach of the sea. He's studying a course at college and it was for a college project on his photography course .
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I am surprised the college didnt address these issues first. especially with students.
 
KIPAX said:
You can't compare an adult with a child. adults have choices. children don't and as such you, me or anyone else should not be "using" them. because that is exactly what you are doing. watching, taking pictures. it's all about you using those children for your own pleasure.
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So NOBODY should ever take pictures of children - is that your opinion?
 
Witch said:
So NOBODY should ever take pictures of children - is that your opinion?
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eeerm no.. that would be a silly opinion.. did you read all my posts on the subject?


this one?

At the end of the day its down to who feels what. I feel its wrong. Others feel it's OK. It's what makes the world go around I guess..
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The people who feel its OK will go ahead and photograph.. the people like me who feels its not OK wont..

seems a fair opinion to me :)
 
Oh I agree totally Kipax - but you see this is a forum, which means debate may well ensure between those who believe one thing, and those who believe another!

You've got me curious though - where do you stand on the subject of, for example, school theatrical productions? Is it wrong for people to be watching children in that situation too as a good few of those may have been pushed into tgaking part by a parent or teacher also.

**unrelated to any particular post or poster**
I think it's very easy to step into the area of taking the morla high ground on an issue - posting a statement or opinion because it's where you feel that public opinion "ought to" lie. Equally, I'll bet there are a number of people who have read this thread and though "Well I don't see anything wrong in it myself, but I can't post that 'cos people will think I'm some sort of perv!", It's an emotive subject and one which will always encourage strongly worded opinion I think. However, I think it's important to remember that if you are wanting to take candids of children, as has been mentioned already in the thread - you are doing NOTHING wrong!
 
Witch said:
Oh I agree totally Kipax - but you see this is a forum, which means debate may well ensure between those who believe one thing, and those who believe another!!
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Thats hardly fair is it.. I know its a forum. I am joining in with my opinion. Why do you feel the need to talk down to me like that?


Witch said:
You've got me curious though - where do you stand on the subject of, for example, school theatrical productions?
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This thread is about people taking pictures of children playing without the parents giving consent or even knowing.. I am commenting on that..


As for the rest of your post it would seem i need to repeat my earlier answer again

At the end of the day its down to who feels what. I feel its wrong. Others feel it's OK. It's what makes the world go around I guess..
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Perhaps I should use it as a sig :)
 
And here I am mostly wishing kids would get the hell OUT of my shots.
 
KIPAX said:
Going out to take pictures of children playing in a public place without the consent or as the OP suggests without them even knowing is wrong. You may want to dress it up as OK and theres some very poor excuses in this thread.. but it's simply wrong and I would challenge anyone I saw doing it even if it wasn't my kids playing.
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A totally bizare attitude it's no different from taking pictures of adults walking down the street. Your just demonstrating the crazed paranoia that has parents in this country thinking there is a p**** in every hedge and it's not safe for kids to go out side.

It's this attitude that will lead to laws about what you can shoot and when you can shoot it. Before you know it we will have a crazy law to protect kids from the 0.000001% of people who are taking pictures for dodgy reasons and all cameras will be banned rom the park or the beach or public places!

I've taken candids of kids playing with there parents etc and I feel no guilt what so ever. I took them as they were good phot oppertunities in the same way i shoot dogs chasing sticks etc.
 
a1ex2001 said:
A totally bizare attitude
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It's a different attitude to yours... but I wont be tagging yours :)


a1ex2001 said:
I've taken candids of kids playing with there parents etc and I feel no guilt what so ever. I took them as they were good phot oppertunities in the same way i shoot dogs chasing sticks etc.
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Good for you.. did you see this following quote I wrote earlier or just ignoring it? :)

At the end of the day its down to who feels what. I feel its wrong. Others feel it's OK. It's what makes the world go around I guess
Click to expand...
 
And this is the problem with raising this issue, it will divide people and promotes an emotional from all. In the end, you need to consider how the image will be used, displayed and perceived by the viewer. There are a lot of sick people out there who do get their thrills with children and images of them, this breeds paranoi and not the attitude's of the photog.
 
KIPAX said:
good grief this is getting silly now :(

Are you suggesting that the pleasure a mother gets with her children should be alllowed with a total stranger and her children ??
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Are you suggesting that the completely innocent pleasure a person can take from simply watching children play happily is morally wrong if that person isn't related or known to the child's parents?
 
Theres a lot of selective quoting going on in this thread isn't there :) Grab the bits that make someone look mad as a march hare and leave the other bits..

My opinion is that its wrong to take pictures of children in the circumstances the OP outlined.. ie from a distance without anyone knowing..thats it.. Its just my opinion..

If anyone else has a different opinion from mine then thats great .. if we all had the same opinion the world would be a sad and boring place.

Its that simple.. Anything else you want to make out of it is up to you guys..
 
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