Candid photography involving children in public

KIPAX said:
sigh.. thats really not on is it... your now looking for things to attack me with... I already covered this in an earlier post... please have the common decency to read my responses if your going to try to trip me up :(


from an earlier post




I dont mind a debate fella but your now starting to just be on the attack.. I have an opinion that differs to yours... try and live with it :(
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If me looking at your website is "not on" then I suggest you remove the link to it in your signature. :shrug: FWIW it's not the first time I've looked at it, and it may not be the last either. I'm not talking about sports shots with kids in a massed crowd, I'm talking about pics which clearly show children around and about the subject of your shot. I'm also not making efforts to trip you up, it's simply that pictures which are clearly visible on your publicly available website clearly contradict your views as posted on here.

Interestingly, earlier on you were complaining about selective posting, yet in your thread above you actually selectively quoted yourself in order to give a slightly different slant on a previous post - the comment which immediately preceded your quote being....

KIPAX said:
..................
I would never photograph kids at sport without knowing that every parent had signed a form agreeing to it.
...............
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Trev Rich said:
In your opinion Mattyh.
In my OPINION I will be offended if someone slyly took photos of my kids.
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the law isn't an opinion.. There is no law against taking photos of children in public (well almost anyway), using a zoom lens or otherwise. So it's not MY opinion ;)
 
Trev Rich said:
If I caught someone taking photos of my kid with a zoom lens I wouldnt hesitate in walking straight over and knocking him out..
Just my opinion...

If you want photos of kids... have kids or use family members..
dont mess about togging other peoples kids.. especially secretly!
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Trev Rich said:
In your opinion Mattyh.
In my OPINION I will be offended if someone slyly took photos of my kids.
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Would your kids be proud of their father after witnessing this?

Bob
 
Groucho said:
I think is someone objected to me taking a photo of their own child, i would respect that and given the sensitive nature of
photographing kids, i would always ask first and inform them why regardless of whether i have the right to do so, its just common good manners and courtesy.

But has anyone thought about why they are afraid of someone taking photos of kids, what do they think the photographer is going to do with them, after all if one of the vile peadophiles wanted photos of kids all he has to do is to get one of the many mail order catalogues that sell kids clothes, cant see why one would want to take pictures of kids
just out with their parents or being in the background of another photo, or maybe i am just naive:shrug:
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:clap:

Seems straightforward enough to me.

In all honesty, do people REALLY think that your average paedophile is lurking around the swing park with a 1Ds and a 300mm f2.8? Bit conspicuous for someone who probably doesn't want to be identified, wouldn't you have thought?!
 
Punching someone who was acting perfectly legally....
 
Witch said:
I'm talking about pics which clearly show children around and about the subject of your shot. ..
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and ?

how are you connecting that with someone in the park secretly taking pics of children playing ?

also if you want to get nitty with it.. a football ground isnt a public place and everyone in it is well aware they may be photographed.. or even on TV

it would seem you are having a real difficult time with me having an opinion different to yours.. yet I am able to live with the knowledge that you have a different opinion to mine :)
 
Is there a difference if your togging children in a foreign country, africa perhaps, would you ask their parents permission?

Sadly the society we live in today makes it almost impossible to live a free life.
 
I know this is a difficult and emotive topic but PLEASE let's try to keep this from going personal, it'll just cause me extra work cleaning it up :p
 
dod said:
I know this is a difficult and emotive topic but PLEASE let's try to keep this from going personal, it'll just cause me extra work cleaning it up :p
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Pop out and brew up Dod, you can catch up later ;)
 
Trev Rich said:
If I caught someone taking photos of my kid with a zoom lens I wouldnt hesitate in walking straight over and knocking him out..
Just my opinion...

If you want photos of kids... have kids or use family members..
dont mess about togging other peoples kids.. especially secretly!
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Now this is interesting as I think it starts to touch on one of the core issues...

Children make great subject because they are honest and expressive of their emotional state. As a photographer I appreciate what a great source that is for a picture. So the question is what harm am I doing by taking a photo of a child smiling a beautiful smile whilst playing? Does permission from the parent change or remove the amount of harm in any way? Does getting permission before differ from getting it afterwards?
 
Trev Rich said:
In your opinion Mattyh.
In my OPINION I will be offended if someone slyly took photos of my kids.
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Taking photographs slyly is a totally different matter Trev, I regularly take candid shots of families - including the kids. I do not skulk around in a dirty raincoat & hat with the camera tucked into my jacket (well, unless it's raining :LOL:) I always stand in plain view, smile & always ask permission if the moment allows. If not then I take the image & ask later.

It is an unbelievably difficult situation to deal with but in all of my years as a photographer I have never once been stopped or questioned by a parent/parents unless it was to ask about a print.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions but as photographers we have an extra level of understanding when it comes to photographs as we know about this forum & other places that images may be shared - I'd like to think that most of us just use our common sense & judge each situation as it happens.
 
My child was at cheerleader camp today (shes 5), there were 130+ kids there.

No mention of photo disclaimers at the beginning, i thought it best not to take the Dslr, instead i took my K800i and got lots of shots after seeing loads of parents taking photos. I didnt mind at all because i, as a parent, expect to see other parents wanting to tog their kids at these kind of events. You couldny possibly guarantee other kids dont come into shot.

Nobody minded and i was gutted i didnt take the Canon lol.
 
pxl8 said:
Children make great subject because they are honest and expressive of their emotional state. As a photographer I appreciate what a great source that is for a picture.
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I for one wholeheartedly agree with you.. some of the best pictures i have seen or taken are of children.. they are great for pics

pxl8 said:
So the question is what harm am I doing by taking a photo of a child smiling a beautiful smile whilst playing? Does permission from the parent change or remove the amount of harm in any way? Does getting permission before differ from getting it afterwards?
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OK your fond of scenarios arnt you ...

What about going up to a little girl on the swings and stroking her hair without the parents permission..... what harm could that do..

What about just going up to a child playing in a sand pit.. you get in there and help make a sandcastle.. sat there giggling away with the child.. what harm is that?


ask yourself what dad would do when he turned around and saw you doing either of the above?


OK now take that to photography... OK a totally different level isnt it.. but peoples emotions are on different levels..
 
KIPAX said:
and ?

how are you connecting that with someone in the park secretly taking pics of children playing ?

also if you want to get nitty with it.. a football ground isnt a public place and everyone in it is well aware they may be photographed.. or even on TV

it would seem you are having a real difficult time with me having an opinion different to yours.. yet I am able to live with the knowledge that you have a different opinion to mine :)
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I don't have any problem at all with anyone having a different opinion to mine - or indeed anyone posting a differing opinion to mine on this or any other forum. What DOES tickle my curiosity, however, is someone holding an unusually strong opinion on a subject, to the extent that they would interfere with the freedom of expression and human rights of others in the name of that opinion, without being able to in any way explain or back up that view.

For what it's worth, my opinion is that anyone taking photos of any other human being for less than savoury reasons, is a pretty worthless piece of scum. However, I also support people's right to carry on their business normally and legally, and I object to being made to feel as though I or others should be ashamed of themselves for doing nothing whatsoever wrong. I have a strong belief in the right to freedom of expression - and I detest the current ethos of everyone looking over their shoulder all the time. It has to be one of the hardest times ever to be a parent - with all that is written in the media regarding paedophiles, abductions, and the dangers of letting your kids go out and play alone, it would be easy to lapse into the view that there is danger behind every tree. Of course the bottom line is that there is actually less child abuse now than there was 150 years ago - it's just that now it's more publicly known about, with every red-top carrying sale-producing headlines regarding "P****'s" (sic) and how terrible our society is now. Abductions also are very rare indeed - kids are far more vulnerable to the dangers of walking out in front of a car whilst looking over their shoulders for the paedophile who undoubdtedly ISN'T following them!
 
moomike said:
Taking photographs slyly is a totally different matter Trev, I regularly take candid shots of families - including the kids. I do not skulk around in a dirty raincoat & hat with the camera tucked into my jacket (well, unless it's raining :LOL:) I always stand in plain view, smile & always ask permission if the moment allows. If not then I take the image & ask later.

It is an unbelievably difficult situation to deal with but in all of my years as a photographer I have never once been stopped or questioned by a parent/parents unless it was to ask about a print.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions but as photographers we have an extra level of understanding when it comes to photographs as we know about this forum & other places that images may be shared - I'd like to think that most of us just use our common sense & judge each situation as it happens.
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No with this situation Im agreed with..
now if you were in a park and came up and explained your situation.. gave me a card with your website addy on then I would approve wholeheartedly..
The beggining of this thread was about a guy taking photos with no permission....

I take a lot of photos at youth football matches for a website i run on all the local football teams.
I always ask permision in advance by phoning the away team manager a week prior to the event. I ask him to contact the parents and if any refuse to allow the pix to be taken.. then I dont attend the match.. (although that has never happened).

My point of anger was at toggers that take shots slyly.
 
Dappa44 said:
Nobody minded and i was gutted i didnt take the Canon lol.
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i bet you where... i would have been.. my eldest daughter did karate and nowehere we went allowed cameras and as such i havent got any of her in compotitions and thats sad ..

i dont think anyone is suggesting there is anyhting wrong in taking pics of kids.. theres a lot of valid reasons for taking kids pics.. i take pics of kids... i know others who do..

But I dont know anyone who goes out to the park secretly taking pictures of other peoples kids without them knowing.. thats what the thread is and thats what i object to...

however there seems to be a lot of people arguing for it.. which amazes me to be honest. but thats up to them i suppose .
 
Dont get me wrong, if i spotted someone secretely togging kids i would kick off big time.

Thats a totally different scenario
 
KIPAX said:
OK your fond of scenarios arnt you ...

What about going up to a little girl on the swings and stroking her hair without the parents permission..... what harm could that do..

What about just going up to a child playing in a sand pit.. you get in there and help make a sandcastle.. sat there giggling away with the child.. what harm is that?

OK now take that to photography... OK a totally different level isnt it.. but peoples emotions are on different levels..
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Speaking or otherwise interacting with a child is very different from observing them enjoy life. Your example is only one step away from the question I'm still waiting for answer to - what if someone is merely watching a child play on the swing. Do they also deserve to be challenged because they have fallen below your own moral standards and beliefs?
 
Trev Rich said:
No with this situation Im agreed with..
now if you were in a park and came up and explained your situation.. gave me a card with your website addy on then I would approve wholeheartedly..
The beggining of this thread was about a guy taking photos with no permission....

[snip]

My point of anger was at toggers that take shots slyly.
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So all the pervert has to do is give you a card with fake name and website and you'll happily let them take photos?

This is a classic example of people leaping to the wrong conclusions. Tog taking some nice shots for his portfolio is assumed to be a pervert and receives a kicking. Brazen pervert with half a brain cell is given permission and maybe even a thankyou. If he pushes his luck he could ask for your address to send some prints to - then he knows where your kids live...
 
Trev Rich said:
well thats the senario that I thought this thread was about.. now im getting digs in other threads??? :shrug:
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that is what the debate is about.. a mod has even stepped in asking to keep to it... some people keep moving the goalposts ...watching people, pics of adults and even taking pics of dogs have all been thrown in..


best thread in ages:)
 
Trev Rich said:
well thats the senario that I thought this thread was about.. now im getting digs in other threads??? :shrug:
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It is the scenario but it's been dragged wide of the topic.

Interstingly the (non-silent) majority here seem to think it's ok, but this IS a photography forum. I wonder what the response would be in a parenting forum?!!
 
The first post didn't say "secretly" which implies some kind of deception. It is about candid shots but I get the feeling some folks think we're talking about a tog hiding in the bushes camera in one hand tissues in the other...
 
tigerimages said:
It is the scenario but it's been dragged wide of the topic.

Interstingly the (non-silent) majority here seem to think it's ok, but this IS a photography forum. I wonder what the response would be in a parenting forum?!!
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well I thought it would be adult opinions on here but I seem to be singled out now. :shrug:
 
pxl8 said:
So all the pervert has to do is give you a card with fake name and website and you'll happily let them take photos?..
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your twisting it again..

the thread isnt about perverts and isnt about what people do with the pictures.. the thread is about secretly taking pictures of children playing. some of us think thats wrong.. some of you think its right

with your question we would have to never let anyone take a picture ever again just in case... we cant monitor whats done with a picture..
 
Well I am off for butter pie and peas now..

My opinion is.. its wrong to photograph other people kids playing in the park without them knowing

Thats all it is.. an opinion. :)
 
Right or wrong? nothing to add but
its a sad state of todays
"secret squirrel" society
"human rights infringed society"
"you gotta be a paedophile" to take pictures of children society.
"Can't take pictures on the beach" OF YOUR OWN KIDS
( I know several people that have been told not to by council officials) society

I took hundreds of pictures of my kids runnin' nekid on the beach, parks, bathtime at home etc etc
I feel sad (because of the way we are now society) that this even has to come under discussion :(
I wouldn't have thought twice a few years ago had someone pointed a camera in my / my kids direction,
but sadly now if they ( kids) were younger I might ask a "few questions"
Even the level headed ( I think I am :D) get caught up in all this hysteria now days,
when not a second thought or glance would be given a few years ago:(
I'll pass the soap box before I really get started :D

 
Trev Rich said:
No with this situation Im agreed with..
now if you were in a park and came up and explained your situation.. gave me a card with your website addy on then I would approve wholeheartedly..
The beggining of this thread was about a guy taking photos with no permission....

.......
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But Trev - in your earlier statement you said you'd knock the photogrtapher out before asking questions....in Moomike's scenario of permission not being asked prior to the shot being taken due to the moment not allowing it, he's on the ground bleeding now pal, and you're in handcuffs! :shrug:

pxl8 said:
The first post didn't say "secretly" which implies some kind of deception. It is about candid shots but I get the feeling some folks think we're talking about a tog hiding in the bushes camera in one hand tissues in the other...
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I think the problem is on a basic level of understanding here pxl8 - the subject I thought we were debating was candid shots, that is, someone making no effort to conceal what they are doing, but not necessarily asking permission to do so first. I think either there are some folk taking part in the debate who donlt understand the nature of a candid shot (which was one reason why I tried to explain that earlier on) or there are some who think it's amusing to give the impression that you, I and others enjoy hiding behind bushes sneaking pics of kids.

KIPAX said:
**part of kipax's quote removed as it's irrelevant to the point at hand in the response**

with your question we would have to never let anyone take a picture ever again just in case... we cant monitor whats done with a picture..
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Precisely my point though. Why does permission make a difference?

Kipax made the point earlier that he objects to seeing someone standing watching kids playing......and that he would challenge them if he saw someone doing so. Well unless you spend all of your days indoors Kipax, you HAVE seen people watching kids playing, which must lead to the fact that you HAVE challenged them. What WAS the outcome of those challenges?

Before anyone claims I'm taking this O/T, I'm simply exploring a point raised earlier by Kipax himself - presumably he can't object to that?
 
Where has anyone indicated that you. or anyone else, isn't entitled to an opinion Trev?
 
Trev Rich said:
Im more bothered about being single out like this thread here.
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It was a jokey comment which firstly the poster has clarified was not just aimed at you, and secondly for which that poster has apologised to you. YOU were the one who jumped to the conclusion that it was aimed at you, and in all honestly had you not linked your name to the comment, neither I nor anyone else would have thought of you for even a second on reading that comment - we would simply have assumed that it was a jokey reference to a thread which has got quite heated!

I hardly think it's worth taking your ball home over, do you?
 
Witch said:
Kipax made the point earlier that he objects to seeing someone standing watching kids playing......and that he would challenge them if he saw someone doing so.
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no i didnt..

I made my point.. it got mudded along the way with everyone asking questions nothing to do with the thread.. questions about watching and adults and crikey even dogs :( i repeated my point many times but yet here you are again twisting it.. and yes your going to respond with another quote arnt you...


why are you hanging on my every word witch? its getting scary...


butter pie was excellent... thanks for asking.. :)
 
KIPAX said:
your twisting it again..

the thread isnt about perverts and isnt about what people do with the pictures.. the thread is about secretly taking pictures of children playing.
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No it's not. It's about taking candid shots of children. Secretly isn't a word that was used in the post that started the thread.

Candid decribes the subject, secretly describes the photographer - two very different things.

But you missed that point from the get go...
 
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