Canon EF mount users - what does the future hold?

Cagey75 said:
Again, your first line there could be used in any debate on here. I think I'll copy and paste it next time anyone disagrees with me ;) [probably within the next 5 minutes then :D ]

You said it was silly for a Canon user to switch over to ML and expect to continue using their EF collection, right? That's what I disagree with, I'm not sure what else there is to it but that's pretty B&W to me.
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Be my guest :)
Debates are fine but I am not interested in arguments, if you are not interested in arguments it's good to cut it before it takes off :D

Nothing is ever black and white ;)
Perhaps not silly but not a good solution for a longer term. For the moment it's a reasonable and decent solution because RF is in its infancy and EF is very mature.
 
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Cagey75 said:
What's missing atm from the R in your opinion? genuinely curious, as I'm not sure what pros desire above and beyond what's available right now.
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Better AF and eyeAF :)
For personal use canon is good enough but when I am shooting for others I'd want the reliability on level of Sony.
 
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Cagey75 said:
What's missing atm from the R in your opinion? genuinely curious, as I'm not sure what pros desire above and beyond what's available right now.
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more battery life and buffer, faster frame rate, dual cards, faster start up. better face / eye AF would be very cool.
 
newbie1 said:
more battery life and buffer, faster frame rate, dual cards, faster start up. better face / eye AF would be very cool.
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+1 for dual cards also :)
I haven't read much in terms of the buffer. Is it shallow? I suspected it would be on the level of 5D4?
 
Cagey75 said:
What's missing atm from the R in your opinion? genuinely curious, as I'm not sure what pros desire above and beyond what's available right now.
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Personally:

1. No dual cards. Canon's wifi back up suggestion was laughable. That's the big one.
2. Sensor shift IS and high res as in Panasonic S1R.
3. Better EVF
4. proper 4K video (just because)

or let's paraphrase that to specs matching or exceeding A7RIII.

newbie1 said:
has anyone tested the rf 1.2 vs the ef 1.4? wonder how noticeable the differences at 1.2 are in practice. I find the ef 1.2 focus too slow for events.
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We will have to wait a little bit unless you get advance invitation from Canon :)
 
nandbytes said:
+1 for dual cards also :)
I haven't read much in terms of the buffer. Is it shallow? I suspected it would be on the level of 5D4?
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1DXM2 is unlimited for jpeg and raw, EOS R has limits
 
nandbytes said:
Be my guest :)
Debates are fine but I am not interested in arguments, if you are not interested in arguments it's good to cut it before it takes off :D

Nothing is ever black and white ;)
Perhaps not silly but not a good solution for a longer term. For the moment it's a reasonable and decent solution because RF is in its infancy and EF is very mature.
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I just think that even down the road, your old EF lenses will still be fine for future models that allow them - and I really don't think Canon are dumb enough to ever cancel that option out. They have too vast a lens vault to ever dismiss, and they know full well that people with a bunch of older lenses will find adapting options attractive. Poorer glass may be left behind, but the better lenses, no matter how old, will always have a place.

newbie1 said:
more battery life and buffer, faster frame rate, dual cards, faster start up. better face / eye AF would be very cool.
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Battery life is an issue with many mirrorless camers, that really does need to be addressed. Faster frame rate? how fast do we actually need to shoot? I'm a single shot shooter, I rarely ever make use of burst modes or C-AF, I get why pros might need it for weddings, wildlife or sport but for everyday use?
 
Cagey75 said:
I just think that even down the road, your old EF lenses will still be fine for future models that allow them - and I really don't think Canon are dumb enough to ever cancel that option out. They have too vast a lens vault to ever dismiss, and they know full well that people with a bunch of older lenses will find adapting options attractive. Poorer glass may be left behind, but the better lenses, no matter how old, will always have a place.
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Canon will never cancel the option and I never said they would. Sony never cancelled the option too. As I said earlier there are many excellent a-mount glass out there but people don't want to buy or use them adapted. People will generally want and much rather use native glass as there are and will be benefits to doing so. So EF glass will effectually devalue (in the long run I don't mean overnight). If someone waits for that to happen when they do want to swap it'll turn out to be more expensive than it'd have been had they swapped earlier.
Now if you are telling me there will be people who are happy adapting for ever that's good for them but I feel that's a small minority of people.
 
Cagey75 said:
Battery life is an issue with many mirrorless camers, that really does need to be addressed. Faster frame rate? how fast do we actually need to shoot? I'm a single shot shooter, I rarely ever make use of burst modes or C-AF, I get why pros might need it for weddings, wildlife or sport but for everyday use?
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I'm thinking sports and events, not everyday.

nandbytes said:
But 1DX2 also costs twice as much. We should really compare it to Z6 and A7III
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1DXM2 is what I'm using so a replacement needs to be the same or better before I'll switch.
 
newbie1 said:
I'm thinking sports and events, not everyday.
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That's fine, not everyone is using these cameras for pro work though. I wonder how many 'enthusiasts' Vs pro users there is when it comes to these new age cameras, I'm willing to bet there's way more non pros. That's just me pondering here, bot directly at you.

nandbytes said:
Canon will never cancel the option and I never said they would. Sony never cancelled the option too. As I said earlier there are many excellent a-mount glass out there but people don't want to buy or use them adapted. People will generally want and much rather use native glass as there are and will be benefits to doing so. So EF glass will effectually devalue (in the long run I don't mean overnight). If someone waits for that to happen when they do want to swap it'll turn out to be more expensive than it'd have been had they swapped earlier.
Now if you are telling me there will be people who are happy adapting for ever that's good for them but I feel that's a small minority of people.
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I never said you said they would :D Not everything is B&W remember? ;)
 
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LongLensPhotography said:
Personally:

1. No dual cards. Canon's wifi back up suggestion was laughable. That's the big one.
2. Sensor shift IS and high res as in Panasonic S1R.
3. Better EVF
4. proper 4K video (just because)

or let's paraphrase that to specs matching or exceeding A7RIII.



We will have to wait a little bit unless you get advance invitation from Canon :)
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1. Agreed, for a pro shooting whether sports or wedding if your pay cheque relies on results then yes. For everyone else a non-issue.
2. IBIS is coming and will help them keep up with everyone else because it is lacking
3. EVF is one of the best around and lush, no complaints
4. 4k video shooters look else where tbh (GH5 probably), the crop can be handy for wildlife long lens stuff but otherwise avoid 4k*

*it's one reason i kept my 16/35mm 1.8 Sigma to use with 4k cropped but after using it i'm not bothered. The 1080p sooc is amazing and more than happy with the results (i have 4k TVs, a 4k editing rig and a 4k laptop so can do the footage justice and i'm still happy with 1080p).
 
newbie1 said:
more battery life and buffer, faster frame rate, dual cards, faster start up. better face / eye AF would be very cool.
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The R isn't a 1DX MKii replacement so buffer, frame rate etc. isn't comparable, neither is price.

I've personally found the battery life to be fine (i mainly shoot stills) and use a grip on my R for better ergonomics for vertical shooting rather than extending run time.

The eye af can't compete with Sony, no question. Face detect has been fine however and the dual pixel focusing is class leading.
 
nandbytes said:
I have only ever owned manual F1.2 lenses. So no idea how adapted canon EF ones would perform.
I image the RF 85 will focus better than the old EF 85.
Nikon also have a 50mm F1.2 in their roadmap. Sony have no such lens planned.
Apparently the Sony 135GM is sharpest ever. So if such a lens is important for you that may be nice.
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The 85L mk2 works fine on the A73 adapted, in fact, it’s probabt better than the Canon. However the lens is full of “character”. It’s full of CA, it’s slow, it’s not GM sharp but it does have a look.
 
Sharky said:
The eye af can't compete with Sony, no question. Face detect has been fine however and the dual pixel focusing is class leading.
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How can it be class leading if by your own admission another brand is better?
 
Cagey75 said:
What's missing atm from the R in your opinion? genuinely curious, as I'm not sure what pros desire above and beyond what's available right now.
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I would like two card slots -would have lost something that mattered to me in the last month without that. I enjoy sport and photographing the Bewick’s at Slimbridge. Higher frame count matters to me. I saw those lenses in a glass case at TPS; they did look huge!
 
nandbytes said:
But 1DX2 also costs twice as much. We should really compare it to Z6 and A7III
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Yes compare it within its “class” but if you own a 1DX2 it makes no sense to buy something like the R which doesn’t do what I need it to do. I have an Oly and love it but it can’t do what my 1DX2 can do (at least in my hands) as it struggles in the mixed, low light where I shoot basketball and the high frame rate can make all the difference with so many players in such a confined space to getting the moment where no hands, arms or ball covers a face , for example.
 
LongLensPhotography said:
Yes and no to that. 70-200 mk ii is almost same as iii, and as we see the older ones hold value relatively well. Same happens if the new ones are much more expensive (unless its a big upgrade like 100-400). However once the price point starts to converge the old ones suddenly become devalued dramatically. And we just had the announcements for all the major RF zoom lenses one might want and many new primes. So long as they are +£500 and EF are "current" they still retain value, but it only takes one "switch" or bad market reaction any moment now. Maybe Canon just set the scene and are waiting for us to pull the plug from the old one when we feel ready.


Could you confirm that for wideangle lenses such as 16-35 f/4 work well for landscape applications? I have read somewhere adapters usually have problems with wider lenses outside the centre. Maybe Canon ones are made to higher standard than 3rd party sony equivalents??
But then if the equivalent lens is similarly priced it sure makes sense to start upgrading right away, etc.
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But that's the point I'm trying to make. I don't think EF mount 70-200 lenses are going to see a huge drop in value because of the RF mount version. I was excited when the v. iii was announced because I thought I could get a v ii on the cheap but it never happened because the new lens wasn't a big improvement so people didn't bother to sell.
Its supply and demand.

Its difficult to predict exactly what way the market will react but I think when you spoke about end of life you answered your own question. If you can a use your existing glass with no loss of IQ or autofocus ability then I don't see there being a cliff edge for EF lens prices.

Used prices will only get crushed when your lens sees a serious update (like the 50 1.2 that was begging for it),which is really no different to how it works withun EF mount.

Nandbytes makes a very good point that this process and incentive to switch will be accelerated by the desire to get away from adapters, but for now at least isn't this offset by the fact not many people have the new system?
 
nandbytes said:
How can it be class leading if by your own admission another brand is better?
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I said the eye af of Sony was superior and that the dual pixel af on Canon bodies is class leading, two different things.

Face detect has been fine however and the dual pixel focusing is class leading.
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Get the 5d4 or 5dr and the lens you want. You'll have it for ages man, and worry about a whole new system later down the line.

I've got a stack of F mount Nikkor Lenses (holly trinity now of 2.8 zooms and the 24,35 and 50 ART primes and a little 20F1.8) so will run the D810's till they are pretty much dead, then get another F mount DSLRs - then run them till they die - by then I'll have had my moneys worth out the gear and will move to a totally fresh system.
 
Sharky said:
I said the eye af of Sony was superior and that the dual pixel af on Canon bodies is class leading, two different things.
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So are you saying the AF-C in R is better than Sony/Nikon AF-C for tracking purposes?
In what way is it class leading?
 
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wave01 said:
The SLR has been around for over 100 years. I don’t think it will be going away any time soon. That’s because it works and works very well. The new kid on the block mirror less has a lot going for it. It will find its place it the market. The end of the SLR is a long way off.
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Maybe they work well if you're an f8 and be there guy, not too fussy and don't pixel peep. The inaccuracies and inconsistencies of the DSLR focus system is there for all to see hence all the MA faff on and even it they're never going to be as consistent and accurate as a system taking its focus off the sensor allowing accurate focus just about anywhere within the frame. Focusing with a few points clustered around the centre seems so limiting compared to that. Then there's the issue of exposure, with a DSLR you can bracket or chimp delete and retake but for capturing the scene as it is at the moment with one shot I think that mirrorless with WYSIWYG and exposure aids is an easy winner.

For me there's just so many reasons why for stills shooters mirrorless is a real and clear step forward from the SLR with electronics bolted on design that is the DSLR. Then there's the advantages for video.

DSLR's wont go away over night but now that Canon and Nikon are in the mirrorless market I can only see the DSLR's days being limited. If they hadn't entered the market I'd say that DSLR's could last a deal longer as irrespective of the legacy lens issue there's a degree of brand loyalty that would mean a hard core resisting going Sony, Fuji or MFT. Now that Canon and Nikon have the beginnings of a mirrorless system those who are brand loyal or have existing lenses are catered for and I can only see DSLR's becoming ever more niche. Goodness knows how mirrorless will develop in the near future and as things move on (face/eye detect and other AI stuff) in ways that DSLR's just can't match it may become ever more obvious how limiting the DSLR is.

I can't see any good reason for anyone just getting into photography to buy into DSLR's unless it's because they see a cheap deal or want to use granddads old kit. I think that the future is mirrorless and that the future is stills and video convergence in mirrorless. For those who grew up with film or don't care about video the SLR / DSLR world may be a familiar and comfortable place but sooner or later they'll be clearly seen as limiting and niche dead end products lacking the bells and whistles that will become to be seen as very nice things to have. Just my view.
 
Unicronatron said:
If you can a use your existing glass with no loss of IQ or autofocus ability then I don't see there being a cliff edge for EF lens prices.
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I don't know when it'll happen and maybe there wont be a cliff edge but instead a general and pace gathering slide as the years pass and the number of people willing to pay a good price for a lens with aging electronics and crumbling ribbon cables and connectors drops. Apart from reliability worries there'll probably be increasing issues with firmware and feature compatibility. I'm sure Canon and Nikon will do their best but things are bound to move on sooner or later.

At the mo I can use manual lenses made decades ago but I doubt todays AF lenses will last as long and just need cleaning and lubricating every 10 or 20 years.
 
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nandbytes said:
So are you saying the AF-C in R is better than Sony/Nikon AF-C for tracking purposes?
In what way is it class leading?
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No, clearly i'm not saying that and not sure how you can interpret my post to suggest i am?
 
Sharky said:
No, clearly i'm not saying that and not sure how you can interpret my post to suggest i am?
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I am not interpreting anything, quite the opposite I am trying understand what aspect(s) of it is class leading?
 
nandbytes said:
I am not interpreting anything, quite the opposite I am trying understand what aspect(s) of it is class leading?
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I seem to recall a review stating the dual pixel AF in the R works exceptionally well at single rather than continuous AF, would guess that was their meaning.
 
simonbarker said:
I seem to recall a review stating the dual pixel AF in the R works exceptionally well at single rather than continuous AF, would guess that was their meaning.
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Don't know what their meaning was. What exactly is class leading single AF? Quickest to lock-on?
Canon is certainly rated highly for low light.
 
Nikon CP+ interview by dpreview - https://www.dpreview.com/interviews...e-viewfinder-should-be-as-natural-as-possible

An interesting read and I don't think its a huge leap to say canon may be thinking along similar lines about its flagship sports body.
I think we'll see decline in value and support for F-/EF-mount lenses when D5 or 1DXii series gets replaced by mirrorless alternatives.

Sony a-mount never really had a sports oriented body but IME the decline really got worst when A7RII came out and was better than anything a-mount had to offer. Sony A9 then kinda sealed the fate of a-mount. When a similar thing happens on canon/nikon we'll see respective lenses decline too. I guess that quite fews year away at the moment.
 
nandbytes said:
Nikon CP+ interview by dpreview - https://www.dpreview.com/interviews...e-viewfinder-should-be-as-natural-as-possible

An interesting read and I don't think its a huge leap to say canon may be thinking along similar lines about its flagship sports body.
I think we'll see decline in value and support for F-/EF-mount lenses when D5 or 1DXii series gets replaced by mirrorless alternatives.

Sony a-mount never really had a sports oriented body but IME the decline really got worst when A7RII came out and was better than anything a-mount had to offer. Sony A9 then kinda sealed the fate of a-mount. When a similar thing happens on canon/nikon we'll see respective lenses decline too. I guess that quite fews year away at the moment.
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The saving grace for me is that the R doesn't actually beat my 5D4 so at least for the next year or 2, the value of EF lenses should hold steady, within 10% i'd say.
 
nandbytes said:
I am not interpreting anything, quite the opposite I am trying understand what aspect(s) of it is class leading?
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Got out on the wrong side of the bed yesterday, sorry for snappy reply, it was a fair question given the vagueness of my statement :)

What i meant was... Canon have been leading the pack in terms of video af and their dual pixel af system. No idea if Sony, Nikon etc. have caught up with their latest bodies but do remember things like the Sony A7 III being outperformed for video af by Canon bodies. Still shooting is different and Sony certainly has far better eye AF / face detect performance from what i've seen.
 
Sharky said:
Got out on the wrong side of the bed yesterday, sorry for snappy reply, it was a fair question given the vagueness of my statement :)

What i meant was... Canon have been leading the pack in terms of video af and their dual pixel af system. No idea if Sony, Nikon etc. have caught up with their latest bodies but do remember things like the Sony A7 III being outperformed for video af by Canon bodies. Still shooting is different and Sony certainly has far better eye AF / face detect performance from what i've seen.
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No worries we all have one of those days :)

Video wise I don't know really. I believe Nikon is good in this area too.

Previously dual pixel was certainly the best of the lot for video AF, it allowed for smooth and more natural transition in focus.
But Nikon and Sony may have caught up in this area now.
 
Raymond Lin said:
The saving grace for me is that the R doesn't actually beat my 5D4 so at least for the next year or 2, the value of EF lenses should hold steady, within 10% i'd say.
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So 2 years is probably what we have. I can easily see R mkII beating 5D mkV.
 
Well I think it is likely they will soon release mkV somewhere around 3-3.5 years since mkIV. That will allow them to capitalise on all the R&D over all these years. And maybe a year later the killer spec R comes out, maybe even together with the hypotetical RX or sports version. That's what I'd do if I wanted to make the most $$$ from their current position.
 
I've been looking at investing in an L lens recently but can't decide if I'd be better waiting it out incase I need the money to buy a new body with a new lens mount. Having only upgraded to my 60D about 6 months ago i can't see myself upgrading for a couple of years and hopefully in that time things will have become more clear in the market. It'll be interesting to see what happens anyway
 
If you need the lens to take the pics you need then I would not wait a couple of years. Try buying second hand?
 
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