Canon FF mirrorless...

I think it's a nice looking bit of kit! And, they've got some nice lenses straight off the bat IMO

I think in my opinion they have outdone NIkon on initial release - and Sony too in all honesty!

Will they tempt me back...... Unlikely, but that's 99% down to pound coins........

It will be interesting to see how these Nikon/Canon offerings perform but in any case it's going to be good for the market & the future of mirrorless without a doubt.
 
michael23 said:
I see the 35mm1.8 is a macro too.
Click to expand...

I doubt very much it'll be a true macro. Maybe it'll focus a little closer than we'd normally expect a 35mm to and maybe that'll be about it. A true 1:1 35mm f1.8 macro would be quite a surprise :D
 
woof woof said:
I doubt very much it'll be a true macro. Maybe it'll focus a little closer than we'd normally expect a 35mm to and maybe that'll be about it. A true 1:1 35mm f1.8 macro would be quite a surprise :D
Click to expand...
Think it'll be 1:2 i.e. 0.5x magnification
 
Tamron make a 35 1.8 macro which does 1:2 but even so 35mm is far from an ideal macro length.
 
Brazo said:
Tamron make a 35 1.8 macro which does 1:2 but even so 35mm is far from an ideal macro length.
Click to expand...
I use it for flowers on a tripod. Link in my signature for the type of work it suits me for :)
 
woof woof said:
I doubt very much it'll be a true macro. Maybe it'll focus a little closer than we'd normally expect a 35mm to and maybe that'll be about it. A true 1:1 35mm f1.8 macro would be quite a surprise :D
Click to expand...

You mean like the 28mm EF-M macro that does 1:1? personally I'd be very surprised if it's not a very similar lens (including the daft built in ringlight)
 
Raymond Lin said:
<snip>

This is why I can't understand why from both a business and user perspective why it is left out.
Click to expand...

If you survey the Zed camera's target market, as Nikon will have done and also DPReview in their recent poll (here https://www.dpreview.com/articles/7...nt-from-nikon-and-canon-full-frame-mirrorless ) you'll come to the conclusion that dual card slots is nothing like the deal breaker some people think it is.

Feel free to differ on that, but if you're Nikon and derive most of your revenue from DSLRs - including high end 'pro-spec' models with dual slots at the same price level as the Zeds - then here's an opportunity to make a positioning statement to protect DSLR's short-term sales and long-term status. The single slot also saves a few quid and some space inside the new compact bodies. Makes perfect sense.

I'm sure that's Nikon's thinking, but it also doesn't stop it from also being a major marketing blunder.
 
nandbytes said:
I use it for flowers on a tripod. Link in my signature for the type of work it suits me for :)
Click to expand...

Yup. A close focusing 35mm would be nice for walkabout close up shots and for perspective.

Back in the film days there were as far as I remember a few 35mm "macro" lenses.
 
woof woof said:
I doubt very much it'll be a true macro. Maybe it'll focus a little closer than we'd normally expect a 35mm to and maybe that'll be about it. A true 1:1 35mm f1.8 macro would be quite a surprise :D
Click to expand...

I would imagine 1:2 most likely, but you never know. I like the idea of a fast aperture of f1.8 and some kind of macro capability, not as limiting low light wise like the 28 f3.5 version in the m mount.
 
Phil V said:
You mean like the 28mm EF-M macro that does 1:1? personally I'd be very surprised if it's not a very similar lens (including the daft built in ringlight)
Click to expand...

I didn't know that existed.

Lots of lenses have macro written on them and although I don't want to get too far into that debate macro usually means 1:1 to me and things like 70-200mm zooms or even 50mm lenses that only go to half size are not true macro IMO but are still useful as lenses that focus a bit close than we'd normally expect a lens of that sort to.

YMMV on this. Mine doesn't really :D
 
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HoppyUK said:
If you survey the Zed camera's target market, as Nikon will have done and also DPReview in their recent poll (here https://www.dpreview.com/articles/7...nt-from-nikon-and-canon-full-frame-mirrorless ) you'll come to the conclusion that dual card slots is nothing like the deal breaker some people think it is.

Feel free to differ on that, but if you're Nikon and derive most of your revenue from DSLRs - including high end 'pro-spec' models with dual slots at the same price level as the Zeds - then here's an opportunity to make a positioning statement to protect DSLR's short-term sales and long-term status. The single slot also saves a few quid and some space inside the new compact bodies. Makes perfect sense.

I'm sure that's Nikon's thinking, but it also doesn't stop it from also being a major marketing blunder.
Click to expand...

Well I do differ on it.

I am sure if you ask the question "do you want time lapse" or similarly any single one of these features that is a recent addition you could get very similar results too. Like "is eye-af a deal breaker"?

The point is something like this being left out don't make sense, it's not like it is a technical marvel piece of design choice to put it in, nor expensive, nor stops those that won't use 2 cards buying it.

As for protecting their own DSLR…if you are not going to take your own users away from your own DSLR, someone else will.

You know, like I bought a Sony.
 
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woof woof said:
I didn't know that existed.

Lots of lenses have macro written on them and although I don't want to get too far into that debate macro usually means 1:1 to me and things like 70-200mm zooms or even 50mm lenses that only go to half size are not true macro IMO but are still useful as lenses that focus a bit close than we'd normally expect a lens of that sort to.

YMMV on this. Mine doesn't really :D
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I'm aware of all the consumer 'Macro' lenses, just wanted to point out that Canon have recent history with a very similar lens design that's genuinely 'Macro'
 
Raymond Lin said:
Well I do differ on it.

I am sure if you ask the question "do you want time lapse" or similarly any single one of these features that is a recent addition you could get very similar results too.

The point is something like this being left out don't make sense, it's not like it is a technical marvel piece of design choice to put it in, nor expensive, nor stops those that won't use 2 cards buying it.

As for protecting their own DSLR…if you are not going to take your own users away from your own DSLR, someone else will.

You know, like I bought a Sony.
Click to expand...

You can say it as many times as you like Raymond (and probably will) but it's very boring.
 
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nandbytes said:
I use it for flowers on a tripod. Link in my signature for the type of work it suits me for :)
Click to expand...
I did eye up that lens myself instead went for the 45 which has 1:3 macro. My comments were more so that true 1:1 macro lens are typically in the 90+ range.
 
90mm+ is lovely and it gives and increased working distance and a different perspective, I really liked my 150mm Sigma but I find 50mm a lot more useable. I like to use a close focusing lens for walk about stuff when I come across something interesting and also for photographic and copying stuff at home.

Years ago I had a Canon 50mm f2.5 macro which needed an adapter to be 1:1, I liked that lens and one with faster focusing and close focusing ability would be nice. At the time Sigma did a 1:1 50mm macro. These days I have a film era Sigma 50mm 1:1 macro in Minolta mount which I use on both my Sony A7 and Panasonic MFT cameras and of course on MFT it gives the FF equivalent of 100mm FoV.

I'm probably being too anal about macro being macro or not so I'll shut up about it.
 
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woof woof said:
I didn't know that existed.

Lots of lenses have macro written on them and although I don't want to get too far into that debate macro usually means 1:1 to me and things like 70-200mm zooms or even 50mm lenses that only go to half size are not true macro IMO but are still useful as lenses that focus a bit close than we'd normally expect a lens of that sort to.

YMMV on this. Mine doesn't really :D
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It's either 1:1 or not ,;)
 
I imagine, if you do a poll with these questions….you will get a No from lots of people on all these

Do you think a lack of IBIS is a deal breaker? No.
Do you think a lack of flip screen is a deal breaker? No.
Do you think a lack of Eye-AF is a deal breaker? No.
Do you think a lack of a 3mil dots EVF a deal breaker? No.
Do you think a lack of 693 focus points a deal breaker? No.
Do you think a lack of 1/4000 shutter speed a deal breaker? No.
Do you think a lack of no black out shutter a deal breaker? No.
Do you think a lack of time lapse a deal breaker? No.
Do you think a lack of 10 fps a deal breaker? No.
Do you think a lack of built in camera charging a deal breaker? No.
Do you think lack of wifi and bluetooth a deal breaker? No.
Do you think a slightly larger body a deal breaker? No.
Do you think a lack of dual card slots a deal breaker? No.

Take away all those and you will end up with a really crap high end camera for 2018 release, but if the polls shows it's okay….

Which is why I think those polls is misleading and push companies backwards.
 
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@Raymond - this is why the Canon situation is different to the Nikon one:

All 'serious' Nikon cameras have had 2 card slots for years.

Not all 'serious' Canon cameras have dual card slots.

I would not expect anyone who does any professional work to go from 2 card slots to 1, so Nikon shot themselves in the foot.

But if Canon produce a prosumer camera with only one slot, they're alienating a much smaller % of their potential market.

It's not about what you would like or need or what I would like or need, or whether 2 card slots is a deal breaker for you or every wedding photographer in the world; it's about the market segment that Canon are aiming this camera at. And so far we don't even know whether it'll have 2 card slots.

Please read the above and realise how completely irrational this debate would be.
 
Phil V said:
@Raymond - this is why the Canon situation is different to the Nikon one:

All 'serious' Nikon cameras have had 2 card slots for years.

Not all 'serious' Canon cameras have dual card slots.

I would not expect anyone who does any professional work to go from 2 card slots to 1, so Nikon shot themselves in the foot.

But if Canon produce a prosumer camera with only one slot, they're alienating a much smaller % of their potential market.

It's not about what you would like or need or what I would like or need, or whether 2 card slots is a deal breaker for you or every wedding photographer in the world; it's about the market segment that Canon are aiming this camera at. And so far we don't even know whether it'll have 2 card slots.

Please read the above and realise how completely irrational this debate would be.
Click to expand...

I understand the "segment" argument, but what Cons are there for putting in that slot? I see more Pros than Cons.

I mean if you are talking about segment, the £2000 body segment isn't a vacuum, the D750 has dual cards, the A73 now have dual cards, the Fuji X-T2 (cheaper) and the X-H1 has dual cards. The segment surely doesn't exists in a 6D bubble, the segment includes the competition.
 
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Raymond Lin said:
I understand the "segment" argument, but what Cons are there for putting in that slot? I see more Pros than Cons.
Click to expand...
It doesn't matter. It's irrelevant. There is no point to the discussion. It's infinitesimally prurient. Pointless, irrelevant, insignificant, non-germane, uninteresting, inconsequential.

You know how I had a go at someone for trying to tell pro photographers they didn't know what they were doing, well you don't build cameras, Canon are the most successful camera maker in the world - think about that.
 
Phil V said:
It doesn't matter. It's irrelevant. There is no point to the discussion. It's infinitesimally prurient. Pointless, irrelevant, insignificant, non-germane, uninteresting, inconsequential.

You know how I had a go at someone for trying to tell pro photographers they didn't know what they were doing, well you don't build cameras, Canon are the most successful camera maker in the world - think about that.
Click to expand...

So your reply is that you are changing the argument to "they know what they are doing?"

Instead of replying to a question? If the segment is no point to the discussion then why did you bring it up?

Thanks Phil.

p.s. Nokia was once the most successful mobile phone maker in the world once. I mean look at Kodak too, where are they now? Think about that.

I mean the Kodak example is quite funny if you think about it, they invented the first self contained digital camera. It. Imagine if they pushed forward with the development in the 70's, how far would they have come now. Instead they put it in a closet because they didn't think people would want to look at photos on a screen and they didn't want to lose their film market dominance, aka cannibalise their own market.

In 2018 this segment includes dual cards, it might not be a deal breaker to you, but it is now an expected feature now in cameras of this segment. IMO.
 
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Steve Huff page on the Canon mirrorless...

http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2018/09/01/canon-eos-r-leaked-new-lenses-specs/

PS.
Reading the comments on line (there are other sites apart from this one :D) about new Canon and Nikon systems it surprises me how tribal and fanboyish and also how negative people can be and although I know this goes on it's still a surprise to me when we see comments ranging from at one extreme "This is the second coming and the greatest thing ever and crushes Sony" to "Complete fail" on the other.

Such is life and the net I suppose.

:D
 
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Raymond Lin said:
So your reply is that you are changing the argument to "they know what they are doing?"

Instead of replying to a question? If the segment is no point to the discussion then why did you bring it up?

Thanks Phil.

p.s. Nokia was once the most successful mobile phone maker in the world once. I mean look at Kodak too, where are they now? Think about that.

I mean the Kodak example is quite funny if you think about it, they invented the first self contained digital camera. It. Imagine if they pushed forward with the development in the 70's, how far would they have come now. Instead they put it in a closet because they didn't think people would want to look at photos on a screen and they didn't want to lose their film market dominance, aka cannibalise their own market.

In 2018 this segment includes dual cards, it might not be a deal breaker to you, but it is now an expected feature now in cameras of this segment. IMO.
Click to expand...
Raymond,we get it but please just drop it.you rant is spoiling an otherwise interesting thread
 
LeeRatters said:
I think it's a nice looking bit of kit! And, they've got some nice lenses straight off the bat IMO

I think in my opinion they have outdone NIkon on initial release - and Sony too in all honesty!

Will they tempt me back...... Unlikely, but that's 99% down to pound coins........

It will be interesting to see how these Nikon/Canon offerings perform but in any case it's going to be good for the market & the future of mirrorless without a doubt.
Click to expand...
Not enough info yet as far as I'm aware to judge this. No mention of weather sealing, no mention of fps or buffer etc etc. Also, whilst the 24-105mm f4 is nice, for travel I would probably prefer Nikon's 24-70mm f4 S which is 200g lighter. It's obviously going to be preference on a lot of things (as is always the case), but in terms of out and out spec and performance time will tell (y)

Any thoughts on whether they'll do a high res version like Nikon? This seems to be a kind of mirrorless 5DIV, I wonder if they'll do a mirrorless version of the 5DSR?
 
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Raymond Lin said:
So your reply is that you are changing the argument to "they know what they are doing?"

Instead of replying to a question? If the segment is no point to the discussion then why did you bring it up?
Click to expand...
It's the same point - exactly

Which proves how far away you are from being able to discuss this rationally - I haven't got 'an argument' I have 'a point' ;)
 
LeeRatters said:
I think it's a nice looking bit of kit! And, they've got some nice lenses straight off the bat IMO

I think in my opinion they have outdone NIkon on initial release - and Sony too in all honesty!

Will they tempt me back...... Unlikely, but that's 99% down to pound coins........

It will be interesting to see how these Nikon/Canon offerings perform but in any case it's going to be good for the market & the future of mirrorless without a doubt.
Click to expand...

snerkler said:
Not enough info yet as far as I'm aware to judge this. No mention of weather sealing, no mention of fps or buffer etc etc. Also, whilst the 24-105mm f4 is nice, for travel I would probably prefer Nikon's 24-70mm f4 S which is 200g lighter. It's obviously going to be preference on a lot of things (as is always the case), but in terms of out and out spec and performance time will tell (y)
Click to expand...

My mistake in a way I had written it. I was referring to the out-doing from a lenses released POV. My general interest isn't in weather sealing, fps, buffer, etc :)
 
Phil V said:
It's the same point - exactly

Which proves how far away you are from being able to discuss this rationally - I haven't got 'an argument' I have 'a point' ;)
Click to expand...

Your point is that arrogance and market dominance = bankruptcy in 2012 for Kodak.

Point well made :D

So let's move on.
 
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The teacher needs to check the handwriting on Canon and Nikon's homework. ;)

Canon switching to a new mount as well definitely has Sony looking like the odd man out now.

It will be interesting to see how the 28-70mm F/2 lens goes down, that seems a bit of a strange one for a size saving mirrorless release than a DSLR. The Sigma 24-35mm F/2 always had a lot of positive talk around it but I got the impression it was never a massive seller.

Canon definitely has more umptf to its early lens releases than Nikon but again do they meet demand? I tend to think Nikon 24-70mm F/4 lens and F/1.8 primes are more the kind of size most buyers will be after until we see larger bodies.
 
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HoppyUK said:
If you survey the Zed camera's target market, as Nikon will have done and also DPReview in their recent poll (here https://www.dpreview.com/articles/7...nt-from-nikon-and-canon-full-frame-mirrorless ) you'll come to the conclusion that dual card slots is nothing like the deal breaker some people think it is.
Click to expand...

Well if a DPR poll said so I guess the discussion is over.

HoppyUK said:
Feel free to differ on that, but if you're Nikon and derive most of your revenue from DSLRs - including high end 'pro-spec' models with dual slots at the same price level as the Zeds - then here's an opportunity to make a positioning statement to protect DSLR's short-term sales and long-term status. The single slot also saves a few quid and some space inside the new compact bodies. Makes perfect sense.
Click to expand...

That could be the case but you can justify any decision they make with that same reasoning, battery not up to scratch? Well that's to protect DSLR sales and most of their buyers aren't pros so they'll be fine.

HoppyUK said:
I'm sure that's Nikon's thinking, but it also doesn't stop it from also being a major marketing blunder.
Click to expand...

I personally couldn't care less about having an extra slot but as you say it wasn't worth the bad press.
 
Raymond Lin said:
Your point is that arrogance and market dominance = bankruptcy in 2012 for Kodak.

Point well made :D
Click to expand...
No my point is that no one is going from 2 card slots to 1 - So Nikon trying to see a 'professional' camera with one slot is a massive mistake (n)

Canon OTOH have produced a prosumer camera which may have one slot, like many of their other prosumer cameras, so it's not such a big deal. :whistle:

I'm guessing you'll ignore this as you have every other time I've made the exact same point, because all you're fixated on is that it just should have 2 slots otherwise you won't like it.:dummy:
 
First important consideration for me is ability to use current EF lenses natively. Fingers crossed one of the directions they go in will include this.
 
Phil V said:
No my point is that no one is going from 2 card slots to 1 - So Nikon trying to see a 'professional' camera with one slot is a massive mistake (n)

Canon OTOH have produced a prosumer camera which may have one slot, like many of their other prosumer cameras, so it's not such a big deal. :whistle:

I'm guessing you'll ignore this as you have every other time I've made the exact same point, because all you're fixated on is that it just should have 2 slots otherwise you won't like it.:dummy:
Click to expand...

Let it go Phil, you are just repeating yourself. I said "Let's Move On"

(and no, I didn't read it but I am going to stop you before you get to 24 pages on your own.
 
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newbie1 said:
First important consideration for me is ability to use current EF lenses natively. Fingers crossed one of the directions they go in will include this.
Click to expand...

What does 'natively' mean in this context?

BTW given they didn't announce an adaptor, I think you'll be fine ;)

My money is still on a moving mount ( I stand the risk of looking daft on release day - but I've looked daft before)
 
Phil V said:
( I stand the risk of looking daft on release day - but I've looked daft before)
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LoL.. the leaked images etc seem to include no less than three adapters...:)

It looks like one will be a straight pass through type, another seems to include a control ring (the leaked lenses appear to have a 'control ring') and the third...not sure on that...

As for card slots the 1 series has always had dual slots, but I am certain that this camera is not aimed at that market, but more at possible purchasers of the 6DII which has a single slot. I do use a 6D on a professional basis (amongst other bodies) however I do not photograph weddings ;).
 
Phil V said:
What does 'natively' mean in this context?

BTW given they didn't announce an adaptor, I think you'll be fine ;)

My money is still on a moving mount ( I stand the risk of looking daft on release day - but I've looked daft before)
Click to expand...

Maybe I used native jargon wrongly. I mean I want to be able to use my existing EF lenses as I do now, no penalties with AF speed or other drawbacks.
 
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