Canon FF mirrorless...

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Robin
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Shame they can't add a second card slot via firmware update ;)
.... :D

This first EOS R body's closest equivalent is the 6D-2 and I am fairly sure that has only one card slot.

I hope that the yet-to-be-released higher spec EOS R bodies have two card slots but it wouldn't be a deal breaker for me. I think it's a safe bet that a mirrorless 1DX R equivalent will have two slots and probably also the 5D and 7D R equivalents.
 
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....Canon officials (one sounds like a Japanese designer?) have already given their reasons in interview.

I have researched and watched too much to be able to dig the interview out for you and I don't bookmark everything.
 
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Gary
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I never said “I care”. It is merely a fact that proves this is rushed.

As you stated, that’s a bug fix, I said features.

You trying to argue apples with oranges?
It proves nothing. It’s your opinion. For people with a more open mind than you it’s just part of modern life where new features get added to all sorts of things. I’ve noticed that since you’ve bought into Sony you’ve joined the canon bashing club pretty readily.
 
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It proves nothing. It’s your opinion. For people with a more open mind than you it’s just part of modern life where new features get added to all sorts of things. I’ve noticed that since you’ve bought into Sony you’ve joined the canon bashing club pretty readily.
It's not bashing. It's a fact, a fact that they have not brought out FEATURES in a firmware update. It is a FACT that they are going to bring out a firmware update for a camera that they haven't even released yet so you get more features. They can't even do it in time for the bodies now.

Those are facts, it is not bashing.

Is it bashing to call a red apple Red?

I can bash Sony too if you want? I think Sony's touch screen might as well not bother, it is miles behind Canon, someone literally wrote the code for that in their lunch hour. Lazy coding, incomplete features, its crap. I would welcome them to add features with firmware update, but that doesn't stop it being released half baked.

That is also a fact.

It's not about taking sides, it is calling it what it is.
 
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It's not bashing. It's a fact, a fact that they have not brought out FEATURES in a firmware update. It is a FACT that they are going to bring out a firmware update for a camera that they haven't even released yet so you get more features. They can't even do it in time for the bodies now.

Those are facts, it is not bashing.

Is it bashing to call a red apple Red?
You’re saying that Canon have never brought out features in a firmware update. Perhaps you should rethink that one.
 
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Raymond
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You’re saying that Canon have never brought out features in a firmware update. Perhaps you should rethink that one.
Please, enlighten me.

What features have they added with firmware within 1 month of the release of a camera?

(yes, I added the last part right now, because if they are going to do a Fuji and add it in 2 years later, it can hardly be call rushed can it?)
 
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Please, enlighten me.

What features have they added with firmware within 1 month of the release of a camera?

(yes, I added the last part right now, because if they are going to do a Fuji and add it in 2 years later, it can hardly be call rushed can it?)
You didn’t qualify it by time. You said they hadn’t done it. I’ll leave this here as it’s a pointless exercise arguing. Better to agree to disagree and just move on with something more constructive.
 
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You didn’t qualify it by time. You said they hadn’t done it. I’ll leave this here as it’s a pointless exercise arguing. Better to agree to disagree and just move on with something more constructive.
I call it rushed because they are releasing a firmware to add features within a month of release.

I would not have called it rushed if it is released next year. That is the CRUX of what i called it rushed, that is what you are upset about. This time frame is what matters.

I am not sure why you are so upset about me calling Canon rushed this to market, it's not like i call it crap or anything.
 
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Gavin
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Please, enlighten me.

What features have they added with firmware within 1 month of the release of a camera?

(yes, I added the last part right now, because if they are going to do a Fuji and add it in 2 years later, it can hardly be call rushed can it?)
If my memory serves me right the 1dx had a firmware update not long after release so it could autofocus up to f8 instead of a maximum f5.6. I could be wrong though and getting it muddled up with the 1dmk4, or a completely different camera.

Edit* you've changed the wording I believe.
 
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I call it rushed because they are releasing a firmware to add features within a month of release.

I would not have called it rushed if it is released next year. That is the CRUX of what i called it rushed, that is what you are upset about. This time frame is what matters.

I am not sure why you are so upset about me calling Canon rushed this to market, it's not like i call it crap or anything.
I’m not upset. I’m simply saying it doesn’t matter when they do it or why they do it. The end results is what counts. Better or worse, sooner or later. Perhaps it’s because I worked in an environment where changing stuff like this happened all the time and you didn’t get the chance to get up to speed on one version before the next one was loaded in, that I don’t get what the big deal is.
 
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If my memory serves me right the 1dx had a firmware update not long after release so it could autofocus up to f8 instead of a maximum f5.6. I could be wrong though and getting it muddled up with the 1dmk4, or a completely different camera.

Edit* you've changed the wording I believe.
That was 7 months after release and was the second firmware update for the camera I think.
 
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Lol if you knew him like I do he tells it as it Is and uses the equipment that does the job for him.
It proves nothing. It’s your opinion. For people with a more open mind than you it’s just part of modern life where new features get added to all sorts of things. I’ve noticed that since you’ve bought into Sony you’ve joined the canon bashing club pretty readily.
 
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If my memory serves me right the 1dx had a firmware update not long after release so it could autofocus up to f8 instead of a maximum f5.6. I could be wrong though and getting it muddled up with the 1dmk4, or a completely different camera.

Edit* you've changed the wording I believe.
I'm pretty sure that was released a bit longer than that
 
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What some people here don't seem to realise is the fact that the development of many products such as cameras and especially software, never ever stops - It is one long evolution and development which continues all the time and versions are released to the public at various stages when it is deemed to be sufficiently ready for marketing to advantage. In one sense the product is never finished or completed, or at least until the company decides or is no longer able to exist.

This is also partly why established companies/organisations like Canon do not set themselves deadlines publicly. The whole EOS stage of the camera development project is ongoing and has been doing so for 30 years.

Whereas a company will listen to what the public and its customers are saying what they individually want, they will not pander to it when it may not suit their longer term view. It's rather like a national government must continue to do what it believes is best in the long term regardless of some people shouting loudly in the street.

I know this from my direct experience of being commissioned as an independent to work on a long established product for several years and which continues currently without my involvement as I have retired from all work. At the various stages of public release most, but not all, of my team stopped behind the scenes literally for only a two week break each time.
 
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@RedRobin - great images on Flickr buddy - you don't need to change camera IMO (y)
....Many thanks indeed! A great compliment.

I don't plan to change from Canon but only to fine tune my system from time to time to take advantage of advances in technology and potentially continue to improve my photography. I enjoy using high quality tools and machines.

Cheers
:)
 
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nik
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It's not bashing. It's a fact, a fact that they have not brought out FEATURES in a firmware update. It is a FACT that they are going to bring out a firmware update for a camera that they haven't even released yet so you get more features. They can't even do it in time for the bodies now.

Those are facts, it is not bashing.

Is it bashing to call a red apple Red?

I can bash Sony too if you want? I think Sony's touch screen might as well not bother, it is miles behind Canon, someone literally wrote the code for that in their lunch hour. Lazy coding, incomplete features, its crap. I would welcome them to add features with firmware update, but that doesn't stop it being released half baked.

That is also a fact.

It's not about taking sides, it is calling it what it is.
tbh 4 weeks after release is hardly a long wait now is it. i would call it good service that its been added or possibly implemented so quickly. i would rather an update after a few weeks rather than waiting 2 years for it. i think its to do with the modern world that people are so impatient for new toys that things do get on the market before fully ready, its just the nature of this consumer society.
 
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What some people here don't seem to realise is the fact that the development of many products such as cameras and especially software, never ever stops - It is one long evolution and development which continues all the time and versions are released to the public at various stages when it is deemed to be sufficiently ready for marketing to advantage. In one sense the product is never finished or completed, or at least until the company decides or is no longer able to exist.
The closest I've come to firmware / software is writing the licence agreement and auditing to make sure the versions are recorded. Some of it just sits there forever until a problem is found, if ever.
 
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Which proves his point that it's been rushed to the market
tbh 4 weeks after release is hardly a long wait now is it. i would call it good service that its been added or possibly implemented so quickly. i would rather an update after a few weeks rather than waiting 2 years for it. i think its to do with the modern world that people are so impatient for new toys that things do get on the market before fully ready, its just the nature of this consumer society.
 
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Riz
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Sony has squeezed / forced both Nikon and Canon to act... act they have but a little too late with not enough hardware specification. :D
 
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Sony has squeezed / forced both Nikon and Canon to act... act they have but a little too late with not enough hardware specification. :D
They'll catch up and Canon will still be number 1 ;)
 
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Sony has squeezed / forced both Nikon and Canon to act... act they have but a little too late with not enough hardware specification. :D
It shouldn't have taken Sony to really nail it with the third iteration before the others woke up. If they couldn't see that mirrorless was the way forward, then they need to review their R&D dept.
 
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Steve Huff says the lenses will sell the system not the camera...

http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2018/...new-lenses-will-sell-the-system-not-the-body/

For me, I can't agree. I just wouldn't be interested in buying into a system to spend another £3k on a lens, £1k over what the DSLR equivalent costs.
....I have read that Canon plan to release non-L versions of their ER mount lenses and those will obviously be cheaper. However, that's not to say that buying into the EOS system is not expensive < Whether it is 'expensive' or not depends on an individual's financial circumstances and their priorities according to how much they love their photography.
 
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matt
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Which proves his point that it's been rushed to the market
Not necessarily, it may be a feature the designer didnt put in and through road testing by users the feedback requested a particular enhancement that could be quickly implemented by a simple bit of new code.
 
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It shouldn't have taken Sony to really nail it with the third iteration before the others woke up. If they couldn't see that mirrorless was the way forward, then they need to review their R&D dept.
....It would be interesting, although it is somewhat academic, to see what the actual comparative timeline of public releases from Sony, Canon, Nikon, and others is with mirrorless cameras.

I think it likely, but due to corporate confidentiality we may never know for certain, that all three of the camera companies mentioned have been developing their mirrorless products for far longer than the public realise.

In view of the already established leading positions of Canon and Nikon, I think it is Sony who have had to rush products out in order to strongly compete and I hasten to add that they (Sony) have done extremely well.

If you consider the factor of the character of Japanese culture, Japan has traditionally always been very insular (and very successful) towards the outside world to the point where outsiders might call it 'arrogant'. When you apply this to Japanese organisations like Canon it helps to understand and respect their ethos and consequently their behaviour. I would venture to say that Sony is less 'traditional' in its behaviour.

I see no point in spending too much time being hyper critical of any of these companies just because they might not meet one's individual needs in just one particular window of time.

@Gaz J Gary posted a link to a very interesting white paper pdf earlier [I'll edit to include it here shortly] which covers Canon's EOS history and development.
 
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Not necessarily, it may be a feature the designer didnt put in and through road testing by users the feedback requested a particular enhancement that could be quickly implemented by a simple bit of new code.
....EXACTLY! As I posted earlier in Reply #1258, the whole development process is continuous. If it isn't practical at the time, feature enhancements (whatever their source) are simply held back for inclusion in the next public release. Technology never stands still - It's all part of human endeavour.
 
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Not necessarily, it may be a feature the designer didnt put in and through road testing by users the feedback requested a particular enhancement that could be quickly implemented by a simple bit of new code.
But if you've got beta testers then surely you wait for feedback, make the necessary amends and then release it don't you?
 
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....I have read that Canon plan to release non-L versions of their ER mount lenses and those will obviously be cheaper. However, that's not to say that buying into the EOS system is not expensive < Whether it is 'expensive' or not depends on an individual's financial circumstances and their priorities according to how much they love their photography.
I'd call it expensive and I could afford a full system for every day of the week.

Sometimes it's not the actual cost it's the perceived value and how much I'm willing to spend.

I see a £3k f2 zoom as unnecessary, ditto an overly expensive f1.x 50mm. I think I'd pay £1k-f1.5k, maybe, but I doubt very much I'd pay £2k for a lens. YMMV.

I just think Steve is wrong with this and I don't think many people will be buying this Canon CSC to use a £3k f2 zoom on. I may be wrong but I think that f2 zoom will be a niche seller.
 
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I'd call it expensive and I could afford a full system for every day of the week.

Sometimes it's not the actual cost it's the perceived value and how much I'm willing to spend.

I see a £3k f2 zoom as unnecessary, ditto an overly expensive f1.x 50mm. I think I'd pay £1k-f1.5k, maybe, but I doubt very much I'd pay £2k for a lens. YMMV.

I just think Steve is wrong with this and I don't think many people will be buying this Canon CSC to use a £3k f2 zoom on. I may be wrong but I think that f2 zoom will be a niche seller.
....Certainly, I agree it's down to what you as an individual are willing to spend and its value to you alone and not necessarily according to the yardstick called 'value-for-money'. I'm ignorant of what "YMMV" stands for < Please educate me.

"Expensive" is a very relative term which apart from the hard reality of what someone's financial circumstances are, is only relative to the individual's thinking. Someone can spend a large sum of money without thinking it's expensive and allowing that to stop them from the pleasure of owning and using it. My Canon supertelephoto L lens comes to mind and I hope to one day mount it on a higher spec mirrorless Canon body which doubtless won't be as cheap as chips < That's just me personally.

Unless the F/2 zoom is a 100-400mm L it would probably not be of interest to me personally because of what I photograph. EDIT! Actually I tell a lie! A fast RF 24-105mm L may be of interest to replace my EF 24-70mm L.
 
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....Certainly, I agree it's down to what you as an individual are willing to spend and its value to you alone and not necessarily according to the yardstick called 'value-for-money'. I'm ignorant of what "YMMV" stands for < Please educate me.

"Expensive" is a very relative term which apart from the hard reality of what someone's financial circumstances are, is only relative to the individual's thinking. Someone can spend a large sum of money without thinking it's expensive and allowing that to stop them from the pleasure of owning and using it. My Canon supertelephoto L lens comes to mind and I hope to one day mount it on a higher spec mirrorless Canon body which doubtless won't be as cheap as chips < That's just me personally.

Unless the F/2 zoom is a 100-400mm L it would not be of interest to me personally because of what I photograph.
YMMV your mileage may vary!!
 
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Yes, sorry, YMMV means your opinion may be different to mine.

I could see myself spending £1,500 or a little more on a top end 24-70mm f2.8 but I just can't see myself or many others spending another £1k/£1.5k+ on the same zoom range but f2. I'd imagine that for many the difference between f2 and f2.8 would need to be judged against the cost and any size / weight penalty.

I feel the same about an expensive 50mm f1.2. I might pay £1,500 and that's a big might but f1.4 or even f1.8 is possibly enough as with f1.2 you're going to get diddly squat in the DoF so its use would be very limited for me anyway. I do have 40 and 50mm f1.2's but modern kit to some extent negates the need for f1.2 or faster over f1.8/1.4 for ISO / noise reasons so that just leaves DoF when you really want thinner than f1.4 DoF and the very occasional situation when faster than f1.4 is really needed for speed/ISO.

I just can't see too many people buying into this to use an f2 standard range zoom over an f2.8 one. A fast 50mm may be a bigger draw but maybe not for me as most of the time I want more than a mm of DoF.
 
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But if you've got beta testers then surely you wait for feedback, make the necessary amends and then release it don't you?
....Not necessarily. According to the product's nature implementing revisions can be more complicated than that. As you probably already know, the continual process involves alpha, then beta testers and then the consumer/user who to some extent often act as external beta testers, and on and on it goes in cycles.

There is no way of telling exactly when the most valuable feedback will come and so the whole process simply continues onwards and hopefully upwards.
 
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There are many reasons for the IQ, I wouldn’t say the top end recent L glass is behind the competition in sharpness, but certainly lenses like the 50L or 85L isn’t the sharpest out there, they are more about the rendering, more pleasing look rather than sharp enough to cut through a log.

I have some very sharp images from the 5D4, but I do find the Sony sharper, but on occasions the sharpness can be a negative. This is getting very picky but may be I am used to Canon, the look of the files is a bit more pleasing. Sometimes on the Sony, I zoom in and see all the pores and wrinkle and think this can be unflattering to the subject, not something I notice much on the Canon before. I guess you can dial down the clarity in post. There really is a lot in lens design in just pure sharpness, I find the Canon walks the fine line between sharp and flattering and lean more into flattering, whereas Sigma goes for the sharpness by the throat. Sony lenses in my limited experience it depends, the 35ZA isn’t as sharp as the 35L, but bokeh is nice. The 50ZA is SHARP and looks great. 85/1.8 is like a razor but missing the soul. The 85/1.4 GM is better but Canon 85L renders that bit better.

This is all very very very picky though because on the web they all look fantastic. I have shot some good images with the Canon 50/1.4 which by all accounts, one of the lesser lenses.

If you are going to PURE sharpness then Sony A7R3 with Sigma lenses, that’s probably the way to go if you want ultimate resolution in sensor and lens, focusing and lack of AA filter, throw in pixel shift too and I can’t see any combo out there to beat it.

I do not own a 5DIV, any 85mm lens, 35VA, or 50ZA, however I do own sigma 17-70 contemporary, EF70-300L f4 IS USM, EF24-105L f4, EF100mm f2.8 macro, EOS 7D ( now sold ), 7Dii and Sony NEX5R with kit lens 18-55 OSS, 50mm f1.8 OSS, 55-210 OSS, and 16mm pancake OSS
My sharpness lens is the 70-300L and the sigma 17-70 is not that far behind the expensive canon. As for he Sony lens the 16mm pancake is soft IQ the 50mm f1.8 OSS is a very good sharp lens and with the sigma MC-11 adaptor I have used the sigma 17-70 and the 70-300L on the NEX5R and the results are very sharp images even better than my EOS 7D ! !

I have watched many reviews of the 5DIV, D500, D850, A7iii, A6500 etc with variuos lens, and though we are dealing with very small margins on zoomed images. I do get concern because if I invest my hard earn cash in a new body I will be keeping for a number of years. So really need it to be a future proof as possible and of course best IQ for bang for buck. As I am not a pro and just amateur I can not afford to choose un wisely as I make no return on it.

The EOS R I thing will appeal to people wanting to up from 5DIII or from APSC to FF. As the EOS R is a pretty good cheap version of a 5DIV !
For 5DIV owners this is really a sideways move and not an upgrade. I would love a mirrorless camera as I travel a lot and space and weight is a limiting factor for me. When I am at home I would use my big bulky DSLR for studio shoots, airshows, wild life as I do not have to worry and wight and packing space
 
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