Canon FF mirrorless...

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6,188
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Graham
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It shouldn't have taken Sony to really nail it with the third iteration before the others woke up. If they couldn't see that mirrorless was the way forward, then they need to review their R&D dept.
R&D aspiration and commercial common sense aren't always as aligned as you would think. Canon and Nikon are still way out ahead as market leaders in the interchangeable lens camera world. And that market share is mainly based on selling DSLR's. So although they're slowly losing market share, they're doing so from a position of having a vastly larger share in the first place. Basically they have to manage the switch in a much more measured way than a business who is trying to gain market share from a position of very little. We tend to have this view of big companies having their head buried in the sand with tech changes but the reality is that they're simply letting others soften the market and iron out the issues because they cannot take on the same level of risk because they have far more to lose. This happens in just about every industry.
 
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Tyson
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This maybe sums up the problems other makers face.

Sony make an electric car that'll do 500 miles on a 5 minute charge, it handles immaculately, tops the NCAP ratings, is self driving at the flick of a switch and it's made of carbon fibre and is 100% recyclable but there's just something special about the way the Canon steering wheel fits my hand, it's a lovely colour and I prefer the font on the badge much more than the Sony font. Yes the Canon is more expensive, it's made of iron, only does 50 miles on a full charge and needs 8 hours to recharge but that colour and that steering wheel and in 10 years time I'm sure they'll be where Sony are now so I'm sticking with Canon :D

Sorry :D Couldn't resist :D
LOL,
I do get what you are saying as I do love my canon gear it is built very well and feels solid.
I do believe canon can put all the new tech inside their sturdy body and we will a have a great bit of kit. To me canon just need to give their customers want they have been asking for. I read about Fujifilm issuing firmware releases to enhance their current and older cameras with new and enhanced features. Future cameras tend to have new features that their customers have been requesting. Canon just are not listening at all !
This summer I was at a electrical store in London airport chatting to a Canon rep about the Sony A7iii and all he could say was 'we inform HO the concerns and opinions of customers and no one gets back to us'
What does that tell us !
 
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9,933
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Keith
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R&D aspiration and commercial common sense aren't always as aligned as you would think. Canon and Nikon are still way out ahead as market leaders in the interchangeable lens camera world. And that market share is mainly based on selling DSLR's. So although they're slowly losing market share, they're doing so from a position of having a vastly larger share in the first place. Basically they have to manage the switch in a much more measured way than a business who is trying to gain market share from a position of very little. We tend to have this view of big companies having their head buried in the sand with tech changes but the reality is that they're simply letting others soften the market and iron out the issues because they cannot take on the same level of risk because they have far more to lose. This happens in just about every industry.
Apparently Canon's M series are out-selling Sony mirrorless in Japan, this is why I think they should have been right up with Sony, if not ahead of them by now overall. But as I've said this before, they know what they are doing, we can only assume. And that doesn't make an ass out of us [I hate that lame saying] - it just makes us curious. We don't need to know the ins and outs of a company's thinking, we just scratch our heads as consumers now and then.
 
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Dave
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Is there any proof that this was rushed? Im trying to read through the posts but i cant find any mention of Canon saying this. anyone got a link i can read through? IMO Just because something is missing doesn't mean its rushed. Might as well class all MKI versions of cameras as rushed in that case, as the MKII has all those features Canon didnt have time to put on the MKI :)

What else is missing that we know is going to be added that shows its rushed. Did they leave off something they said would be there?

Didn't the 5D3 get an update that brought some features in line with the 1Dx. At the time Canon said they just couldn't figure out how to do it in the 5D3 at launch day.it was about a year or so later that they managed it. I have a feeling this is the case here. Its a feature that will be added down the line.

I also believe there is no concrete evidence that this is going to be happening any time soon anyway.
 
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4,935
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Robin
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R&D aspiration and commercial common sense aren't always as aligned as you would think. Canon and Nikon are still way out ahead as market leaders in the interchangeable lens camera world. And that market share is mainly based on selling DSLR's. So although they're slowly losing market share, they're doing so from a position of having a vastly larger share in the first place. Basically they have to manage the switch in a much more measured way than a business who is trying to gain market share from a position of very little. We tend to have this view of big companies having their head buried in the sand with tech changes but the reality is that they're simply letting others soften the market and iron out the issues because they cannot take on the same level of risk because they have far more to lose. This happens in just about every industry.
....Spot on!!

The likes of Canon and Nikon are very measured and are also culturally quite traditionally Japanese [See my earlier Reply #1272]
 
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woof woof
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19,085
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Alan
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LOL,
I do get what you are saying as I do love my canon gear it is built very well and feels solid.
I do believe canon can put all the new tech inside their sturdy body and we will a have a great bit of kit. To me canon just need to give their customers want they have been asking for. I read about Fujifilm issuing firmware releases to enhance their current and older cameras with new and enhanced features. Future cameras tend to have new features that their customers have been requesting. Canon just are not listening at all !
This summer I was at a electrical store in London airport chatting to a Canon rep about the Sony A7iii and all he could say was 'we inform HO the concerns and opinions of customers and no one gets back to us'
What does that tell us !
I like to buy British if I can and if things are more or less equal as I'd like to keep people in this country employed and paying taxes so that we can afford our NHS and all the rest. I do appreciate that the Japanese need to make a living too but that's more their problem than mine although I do obviously want them to be healthy and happy but maybe not at too much expense to me and my future and that of my loved ones :D

As camera gear isn't made in the UK or by British companies (with some notable exceptions) I can't see why I should care who makes it or where. My wife is Thai and quite a bit of kit is made there by Japanese companies so I should care a little about that :D Mostly though I couldn't give a flying if something is made in Japan by Sony or in Malaysia (or wherever) by Canon and I have no emotional attachment to any of these brands.

Dunno what a lack of feedback tells us. I've dealt with Japanese and wider Asian companies and sometimes they do listen but just don't want to admit it and don't want you to know :D
 
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9,933
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Keith
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We can all select quote whatever backs us up, or back slap anyone who agrees with our hot air, end of the day nobody here works for Canon so like I said, it's all assumption.

Canon is a strong brand and they have a very good marketting department
So do Durex, and they often fail :D
 
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Riz
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We can all select quote whatever backs us up, or back slap anyone who agrees with our hot air, end of the day nobody here works for Canon so like I said, it's all assumption.



So do Durex, and they often fail :D
lol :D
 
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4,935
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Robin
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4,935
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Robin
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I like to buy British if I can and if things are more or less equal as I'd like to keep people in this country employed and paying taxes so that we can afford our NHS and all the rest. I do appreciate that the Japanese need to make a living too but that's more their problem than mine although I do obviously want them to be healthy and happy but maybe not at too much expense to me and my future and that of my loved ones :D

As camera gear isn't made in the UK or by British companies (with some notable exceptions) I can't see why I should care who makes it or where. My wife is Thai and quite a bit of kit is made there by Japanese companies so I should care a little about that :D Mostly though I couldn't give a flying if something is made in Japan by Sony or in Malaysia (or wherever) by Canon and I have no emotional attachment to any of these brands.
....I am only partly English and am far too self-centred anyway to care about buying British - I simply like to buy the best I can afford regardless of where it comes from.

I do have a sense of brand loyalty inasmuch as I have a degree of trust in a brand's products. Canon is one of the brands I have grown to trust through experience.

Dunno what a lack of feedback tells us. I've dealt with Japanese and wider Asian companies and sometimes they do listen but just don't want to admit it and don't want you to know :D
....Indeed they do and it would be very unwise not to! But as you already know, they make progress in a very measured and private way.
 
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6,540
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Raymond
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I do not own a 5DIV, any 85mm lens, 35VA, or 50ZA, however I do own sigma 17-70 contemporary, EF70-300L f4 IS USM, EF24-105L f4, EF100mm f2.8 macro, EOS 7D ( now sold ), 7Dii and Sony NEX5R with kit lens 18-55 OSS, 50mm f1.8 OSS, 55-210 OSS, and 16mm pancake OSS
My sharpness lens is the 70-300L and the sigma 17-70 is not that far behind the expensive canon. As for he Sony lens the 16mm pancake is soft IQ the 50mm f1.8 OSS is a very good sharp lens and with the sigma MC-11 adaptor I have used the sigma 17-70 and the 70-300L on the NEX5R and the results are very sharp images even better than my EOS 7D ! !

I have watched many reviews of the 5DIV, D500, D850, A7iii, A6500 etc with variuos lens, and though we are dealing with very small margins on zoomed images. I do get concern because if I invest my hard earn cash in a new body I will be keeping for a number of years. So really need it to be a future proof as possible and of course best IQ for bang for buck. As I am not a pro and just amateur I can not afford to choose un wisely as I make no return on it.

The EOS R I thing will appeal to people wanting to up from 5DIII or from APSC to FF. As the EOS R is a pretty good cheap version of a 5DIV !
For 5DIV owners this is really a sideways move and not an upgrade. I would love a mirrorless camera as I travel a lot and space and weight is a limiting factor for me. When I am at home I would use my big bulky DSLR for studio shoots, airshows, wild life as I do not have to worry and wight and packing space

Where are you based?

Happy to bring a 5D4 and a A73 with a Sigma MC-11 adaptor for you to take some images and then go home to edit to see for your self. The sensor in the 5D4 will be the same, you can then see how sharp the Canon can be, although I’d be honest with you, no matter how much I macro adjust, I can’t get it 100% as sharp when compared to using Dual Pixel AF.

Or I can send you some RAW files with each, let me know what kind of lenses you like, I am sure I can find some samples.

My overall feeling and experience is that the Sony is sharper (no doubt IBIS plays a part), but the Canon isn’t soft like it has vaseline all over it.
 
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2,593
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Mark
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I think an F2 standard zoom is a masterpiece on many levels and one must expect it to be heavy and expensive.

However it doesn’t marry up well to their lightweight plastic camera and perhaps wasn’t the best of launch lenses but maybe one to consider somewhat down the line after the (significantly) better bodies have been released.
 
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1,222
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Soeren
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We can all select quote whatever backs us up, or back slap anyone who agrees with our hot air, end of the day nobody here works for Canon so like I said, it's all assumption.



So do Durex, and they often fail :D
One more thing they have in common :D
 
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3,954
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matt
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But if you've got beta testers then surely you wait for feedback, make the necessary amends and then release it don't you?
Again not necessarily.
Marketing dept have to line up advertising campaigns etc months in advance so there's always likely to be something someone wants that isnt in the pre-release version that could be added subsequently and if it's easy it gets it straight away, if it's difficult it gets it later. Sometimes the addition is so important to some people they dont buy until its added, e.g. I didnt buy my 5D3 until it was able to focus at F8, for others that may no have been an issue.
 
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Giovanni
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I think an F2 standard zoom is a masterpiece on many levels and one must expect it to be heavy and expensive.

However it doesn’t marry up well to their lightweight plastic camera and perhaps wasn’t the best of launch lenses but maybe one to consider somewhat down the line after the (significantly) better bodies have been released.

Weren't mirrorless camera's developed so that camera bodies could be made smaller?

As much as i like the look of that F2 zoom doesn't it go against the whole reasoning of having a smaller mirrorless system?

As much as i like the idea of having a better quality sensor in a smaller body, i long for the day that camera manufacturers develop a completely new sensor and build their system around that.
 
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Mark
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Weren't mirrorless camera's developed so that camera bodies could be made smaller?

As much as i like the look of that F2 zoom doesn't it go against the whole reasoning of having a smaller mirrorless system?

As much as i like the idea of having a better quality sensor in a smaller body, i long for the day that camera manufacturers develop a completely new sensor and build their system around that.
I thought that too but was informed on here (and perhaps rightly so) that the benefits are more towards focusing such as entire frame focus spread of af points and other thing a like silent global shutters, less moving parts.
 
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Terry
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As much as i like the idea of having a better quality sensor in a smaller body, i long for the day that camera manufacturers develop a completely new sensor and build their system around that.

Like Sony did you mean?

And if you have a FF mirrorless it's obvious the lenses are going to be the same size as FF lenses on DSLR's.
 
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19,085
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Alan
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Weren't mirrorless camera's developed so that camera bodies could be made smaller?

As much as i like the look of that F2 zoom doesn't it go against the whole reasoning of having a smaller mirrorless system?

As much as i like the idea of having a better quality sensor in a smaller body, i long for the day that camera manufacturers develop a completely new sensor and build their system around that.
I originally bought mirrorless to get a smaller camera and lens package but I then realised there are other advantages such as...

Seeing the exposure before you take the shot.
Seeing the DoF before you take the shot.
In view Histogram, in view level etc.
The ease with which you can MF.
The reliability of the AF, no MA to worry about.
Being able to see detail in low light that you can't see by eye never mind with the OVF on a DSLR.
The ability to focus just about anywhere in the frame and not being limited to points clustered around the centre.

I still prefer the smaller kit and I wouldn't want a DSLR sized mirrorless but the no size advantages are still there for those who want a big fat camera.
 
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6,314
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Riz
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I think an F2 standard zoom is a masterpiece on many levels and one must expect it to be heavy and expensive.

However it doesn’t marry up well to their lightweight plastic camera and perhaps wasn’t the best of launch lenses but maybe one to consider somewhat down the line after the (significantly) better bodies have been released.
Does it have decent IS? ;)
 
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3,334
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Gary
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I think an F2 standard zoom is a masterpiece on many levels and one must expect it to be heavy and expensive.

However it doesn’t marry up well to their lightweight plastic camera and perhaps wasn’t the best of launch lenses but maybe one to consider somewhat down the line after the (significantly) better bodies have been released.
It’s not plastic. It’s smaller and lighter which is part of the point in making mirrorless apparently. And the same situation arises whatever body you start putting big fast lenses on.
 
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3,954
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matt
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My overall feeling and experience is that the Sony is sharper (no doubt IBIS plays a part), but the Canon isn’t soft like it has vaseline all over it.
That isnt always a good thing :)
There are as I am sure you are aware lots of things which makes camera A better than B
 
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1,994
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That's right up there with Apple will release a new phone next year.

Steve Huff says the lenses will sell the system not the camera...

http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2018/...new-lenses-will-sell-the-system-not-the-body/

For me, I can't agree. I just wouldn't be interested in buying into a system to spend another £3k on a lens, £1k over what the DSLR equivalent costs.
I think he's right but missing the point, Canon will get some sales due to those unique lenses but we're talking tiny numbers due to their cost/size/weight. It would be a bad idea just to recreate the current EF range in RF, this helps sell the new system even if most of it is psychology.
 
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9,933
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Keith
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Wellies and Vaseline on one page, this thread is going somewhere...
:D

I originally bought mirrorless to get a smaller camera and lens package but I then realised there are other advantages such as...

Seeing the exposure before you take the shot.
Seeing the DoF before you take the shot.
In view Histogram, in view level etc.
The ease with which you can MF.
The reliability of the AF.
Being able to see detail in low light that you can't see by eye never mind with the OVF on a DSLR.
The ability to focus just about anywhere in the frame and not being limited to points clustered around the centre.

I still prefer the smaller kit and I wouldn't want a DSLR sized mirrorless but the no size advantages are still there for those who want a big fat camera.
I have been pondering too much lately, considering a move back to Dslr just to pull away from all this latest ML malarky and worry more about getting out and shooting! But I sat down with the G80 last night, setting up custom menus - since I got a replacement everything was a bit all over the shop. And I couldn't help but admire how well put together this little camera is. The ease of use, the ultra-responsive touch screen - and for everything, not just limited to AF or swiping through previews, you can pretty much use the touch screen for all settings without ever touching a button. Then I thought about the image quality, and for the money it is tough to beat, I've never found it wanting in decent lighting, images are ultra sharp [thanks to no AA filter partly] the ISO performance is just as good as many APSC cameras, whether ML or dslr [I fiddled about in DPR's image comparison, pitting it against other possible options it stands up much better than I would have thought] - it's got a lot of the things we see people yearning for like very decent 4K, excellent IBIS, the flippy-flappy screen, weather sealing, solid construction [bar the issues I've had with hinges] and I would say ergonomically sound - though, I do wish it was a little bigger/taller so my pinky has a place to rest. I do like a nice grippy camera. Pondering even more so now if it's a G9 I want to upgrade to ... I don't think I want to lose all those features you just do not get with a dslr. The G9 adds dual slots, even better IBIS, larger grip, 6K and high res shooting modes, better ISO performance [just a tad] more resolution, better evf etc ... then in the new year when all the dust has settled on these FF ML models, see what I fancy then.
 
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Apparently Canon's M series are out-selling Sony mirrorless in Japan, this is why I think they should have been right up with Sony, if not ahead of them by now overall. But as I've said this before, they know what they are doing, we can only assume. And that doesn't make an ass out of us [I hate that lame saying] - it just makes us curious. We don't need to know the ins and outs of a company's thinking, we just scratch our heads as consumers now and then.
Are you comparing the same thing there? A Canon M is a different proposition from an A73, R etc.
 
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9,933
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Keith
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Are you comparing the same thing there? A Canon M is a different proposition from an A73, R etc.
They're all mirrorless .. so pretty much. They clearly know how to put together the tech, the FF versions are just an advancement of this tech, surely with success on the APSC ML front, it's logical to look to FF versions, since they have also been doing FF sensor dslr for donkey's years. Would make sense to me at least, but hey I don't work for Canon, refer back to my earlier post about assuming. You'll find it at #1288
 
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Weren't mirrorless camera's developed so that camera bodies could be made smaller?
Why does it have to be one thing? The size of mirrorless was listed as one of its selling points but there's no actual reason the camera body has to be small. I imagine most businesses see the attraction of mirrorless because they can cut costs by having less parts.

As much as i like the look of that F2 zoom doesn't it go against the whole reasoning of having a smaller mirrorless system?
Again size isn't the reason for mirrorless, it can be an advantage but it's not the sole reason. If these companies are smart they'll put out different size bodies to suit different tasks (Canon should love this the way they run) but if you want to use a full frame camera with a fast lens there's no getting around it being large and then a smaller body becomes more of a hindrance the larger and heavier the lens gets.

As much as i like the idea of having a better quality sensor in a smaller body, i long for the day that camera manufacturers develop a completely new sensor and build their system around that.
Isn't that happening? As long as we're not talking about Canon other systems have been getting new sensors and we'll have a global shutter system eventually... no?
 
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They're all mirrorless .. so pretty much. They clearly know how to put together the tech, the FF versions are just an advancement of this tech, surely with success on the APSC ML front, it's logical to look to FF versions, since they have also been doing FF sensor dslr for donkey's years. Would make sense to me at least, but hey I don't work for Canon, refer back to my earlier post about assuming. You'll find it at #1288
I disagree, there's no point comparing sales figures between wildly different price brackets as the cheaper units are always going to sell in larger numbers.

I do take your original point that they've got experience in this area they could capitalise on but there's clearly a lot more work involved otherwise we'd see other brands using their existing experience to bring out full frame cameras.
 
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quote from another place

So the USB charger for EOS is $190 or £120!! Nearly spat my tea out when I saw it, apparently a few guys trying it out in the field have tried other charger / cables and they didnt work.
I personally find charging on the go very useful but having said that people are also getting 800+ shots from the batteries so it's not a huge issue really but holy moly that is some rip off pricing for a charger.
 
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Riz
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quote from another place
If this is true, it makes Sony charger prices look cheap, hopefully its not true and the Canon R comes bundled with a charger.
I guess its sometimes the price you have to pay to wear the Canon name :D lol
 
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Robin
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Weren't mirrorless camera's developed so that camera bodies could be made smaller?

As much as i like the look of that F2 zoom doesn't it go against the whole reasoning of having a smaller mirrorless system?

As much as i like the idea of having a better quality sensor in a smaller body, i long for the day that camera manufacturers develop a completely new sensor and build their system around that.
....The Canon mirrorless EOS M5 is very small - I personally find it too small to handle well and it's poorly balanced when mounted on larger EF lenses, and its controls are awkward due to being small. The biggest lens I ever mount on it is my Canon 100mm Macro.

Consequently I was extremely relieved to learn that the new mirrorless EOS R body is as large as it is. Although both within the EOS system and with overlap, the markets for the M5 and R bodies are different and Canon fully realise and intend this.

Correct me if I am wrong but haven't Canon introduced a new sensor, being the dual-pixel one (which is also in the M5).

A camera system is best built around lots of considerations and not just a sensor.
 
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4,935
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Robin
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If this is true, it makes Sony charger prices look cheap, hopefully its not true and the Canon R comes bundled with a charger.

I guess its sometimes the price you have to pay to wear the Canon name :D lol
....My embroidered Canon waistcoat might make you jealous but it's not for sale! :LOL:
 
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Riz
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....My embroidered Canon waistcoat might make you jealous but it's not for sale! :LOL:
:D hey at least you can buy a embroidered Canon waistcoat.
I want a Sony G Master strap, can't find one :D lol
 
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4,935
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Robin
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:D hey at least you can buy a embroidered Canon waistcoat.

I want a Sony G Master strap, can't find one :D lol
....These Canon waistcoats were only given to Canon Fanboys :LOL::banana::LOL:

I can give you a Canon camera strap - I don't use them :D Tee-hee
 
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