Canon FF mirrorless...

Phil V said:
It’s only a ‘first’ in FF terms, the Canon M series have been doing it a while now. o_O

However, whenever there’s a post that to that effect, it’s ignored. When people questioned whether the R would do it; several of us posted ‘of course it will, the M does’.

Followed by people saying ‘ah but it wouldn’t work’, again followed by ‘but it already does’.

I joked recently that the M series is bullied, but honestly from the POV of M users, other people’s attitude to them is completely bonkers.

Look above^ an owner posts that native lenses work perfectly, followed by someone who’s never used one posting that they don’t work properly (and not for the first time, and with almost a promise they’ll keep doing so). Completely illogical.
Click to expand...

.... This is true. The FF EOS R is like a big brother to the APS-C EOS M and embodies many of Canon's already developed mirrorless features. The M series is just as valid a player in the team EOS system as any of its bigger brothers - It's another photographic tool in the photography arsenal.

My only experience of the M-series is with Canon's adapter and EF lenses. I have shot images with the M5 on all of my EF lenses and enjoyed the flexibility - Obviously some handle physically better than others. But on a tripod you can even very successfully mount a M5 on an EF 500mm prime + 2x and the resulting images are such that you won't see the difference with the naked eye. I don't think I need repeat yet again why I have moved from the M5 to the R < It's only a personal preference in handling and shooting options and the image quality of the M5 (I have no experience of the other M bodies or M lenses) matches the 7D-2. My 'EOS M' album on Flickr amply demonstrates this [Robin said modestly] but you guys can decide for yourselves :

https://www.flickr.com/photos/114775606@N07/albums/72157683996949495

In due course after the CR3 format is eventually supported in my workflow, I will start an 'EOS R' album on Flickr. But even if I was to post final images now, it wouldn't really say that much about the camera but just more about me as a photographer.
 
Last edited:
You’re dead right @Robin

The 2 lenses I use most (almost exclusively) on the M5 are the 22mm EF-m and the 85mm EF, and theresno difference in AF performance.

In fact what’s occurredto me literally only this morning, is that some people slate the 85mm for front/back focus issues.

I might do a test against a DSLR, but it could be the case that this is a well regarded lens that actually performs better on a Canon mirrorless body than a DSLR.
 
redhed17 said:
Hands on review from Kai W. Mostly positive for stills, not so much for video. I found it entertaining. :)
Click to expand...

.... I wasn't sure when I first ever came across Kai's YouTube videos but he is both entertaining (in a good and relevant way) and very informative - I simply like his style [and that fashionista camo shirt he is sporting!].

As he says but in his own words, the best cameras on which to achieve results are the ones you feel most comfortable with. The bottom line is the result and the enjoyment of achieving it.

I never shoot video and very very very rarely shoot over ISO 6400 and so I don't need to feel limited by those grumbles.

Nice post, redhed.
 
Phil V said:
You’re dead right @Robin

The 2 lenses I use most (almost exclusively) on the M5 are the 22mm EF-m and the 85mm EF, and theresno difference in AF performance.

In fact what’s occurredto me literally only this morning, is that some people slate the 85mm for front/back focus issues.

I might do a test against a DSLR, but it could be the case that this is a well regarded lens that actually performs better on a Canon mirrorless body than a DSLR.
Click to expand...
phil is that the 1.8 85mm?
 
RedRobin said:
.... I think it's both far more relevant and more informative in this thread discussion to compare the EOS R with other Canon bodies than it is with other brands.

A friend has the 5DsR and is blown away by the image quality but he says it performs very poorly indeed at anything above ISO 1000. He shoots wildlife subjects.

Because I was used to 10fps on the 7D-2, I found the slower fps (7?) of the 5D-4 a disappointment but loved its FF image quality even to the extent that adding an MkIII Extender on an EF telephoto L lens delivered an image capable of enlargment often better than on the 7D-2. How many times does one NOT need to crop and enlarge a wildlife image! So when the short window of opportunity presented itself with Wex to part-ex my 5D-4 for a new 1DX-2 with a 4-figure saving it was a non-brainer. The 5D-4, which I owned and regularly used for 6 months, had been my first experience of a digital FF and I now much prefer Full-Frame.

P.S. - I am really enjoying your pictures on social media.
Click to expand...

Thanks, appreciate it... performs poorly is not what I will put against after ISO1000, you'll definitely see more noise due to the MP but I have no complaints with the noise department at the moment.


RedRobin said:
.... I must try it on a tripod just to establish what's going on because it can be wobbly in the EVF as if the lens IS doesn't work in that 100-400mm + 2xIII combo on the current R. Perhaps IBIS on a future R body would solve it - I don't know what's happening, perhaps it's an EVF laggy thingy?

I think I have already tested the R + 100-400mm combo with the 1.4x III but will do so again to be sure.
Click to expand...

It maybe due to light entry to the sensor and the EVF have to compensate hence the lag?
 
Have been out this afternoon with the R on my Canon EF 100mm F/2.8L IS Macro and the 1DX-2 on my EF 100-400mm L II + 1.4x III. This is probably the most commonly used combo I will use while minibeasts are around. Result was absolutely as good as expected and the minibeasts today were larger, being frog face portraits, but the same operations apply.

Something I realised from shooting birds in flight on my 1DX-2 is that by selecting INFO when customising my 'star' button for AI SERVO I can add further options to that button. But I haven't found a way to do that on the R as selecting INFO doesn't offer any further additions. It would be counter productive to add it all to a C-mode as an alternative because it's so much faster and easier to roll my thumb to and from the AF-ON BBF button. I hope I make sense. I wanted to select the AF zone when shooting in SERVO with the 'star' button.

P.S. - I'm probably being thick but there's a lot of customisable options on the R and they're not the same as D-SLR.
 
Last edited:
RedRobin said:
.... I must try it on a tripod just to establish what's going on because it can be wobbly in the EVF as if the lens IS doesn't work in that 100-400mm + 2xIII combo on the current R. Perhaps IBIS on a future R body would solve it - I don't know what's happening, perhaps it's an EVF laggy thingy?

I think I have already tested the R + 100-400mm combo with the 1.4x III but will do so again to be sure.
Click to expand...

robinsslee said:
It maybe due to light entry to the sensor and the EVF have to compensate hence the lag?
Click to expand...

.... That certainly sounds logical. I got involved in the actual photo taking today [silly me!] and forgot to test anything further!

It may be 'wobbly' too in LiveView on the D-SLR - I'll need to check that too. I rarely use LV on a D-SLR.
 
Canon Bob said:
One that makes EF lenses function as well as they do on a Sony body (apparently)?
Click to expand...

.... Really? o_O Do you think that Canon would want to *use (*spelt 'waste') their design resources and time developing an EF adapter for rival Sony bodies? Whereas in theory doing so might sell even more zillion Canon lenses than they do already, wouldn't it also risk encouraging sales of more Sony bodies?

Canon global may buy Sony camera division (apparently) < Now that would be interesting for Canon users wouldn't it.
 
Last edited:
What I'm taking from all this is that the R isn't for me at the moment but it's a really encouraging signs for the future. I'm knocking on a bit now but I'm certainly looking forward to seeing what Canon come up with next. Hopefully it won't be too long before we find out.

Glad you're enjoying your camera, Robin :)
 
RedRobin said:
.... Really? o_O Do you think that Canon would want to *use (*spelt 'waste') their design resources and time developing an EF adapter for rival Sony bodies? Whereas in theory doing so might sell even more zillion Canon lenses than they do already, wouldn't it also risk encouraging sales of more Sony bodies?

Canon global may buy Sony camera division (apparently) < Now that would be interesting for Canon users wouldn't it.
Click to expand...
That does not stop Sigma making lenses to fit Canon and Nikon bodies, though, even if that means they sell fewer Sigma bodies.
 
Phil V said:
You’re dead right @Robin

The 2 lenses I use most (almost exclusively) on the M5 are the 22mm EF-m and the 85mm EF, and theresno difference in AF performance.

In fact what’s occurredto me literally only this morning, is that some people slate the 85mm for front/back focus issues.

I might do a test against a DSLR, but it could be the case that this is a well regarded lens that actually performs better on a Canon mirrorless body than a DSLR.
Click to expand...

Interesting comments Phil, but it may not be a mirrorless vs DSLR thing - it may be phase-detect AF vs contrast-detect issue.

I have also had inconsistent AF performance from the Canon 85/1.8, and even more so the cheapo-plastic 50/1.8 MkII. The problem is not the camera, but the lens that doesn't respond precisely as instructed and that's a fatal flaw in a phase-detect AF system because there's no check of final focusing accuracy. Phase-detect knows where the point of sharpest focus is immediately it's activated and instructs the lens to move straight to that position - that's why it's so fast. But if the lens doesn't move both very accurately and consistently, focus could still be out. (This is nothing to do with AF micro-adjustment.)

Contrast-detect AF, and hybrid systems too, don't know initially where the point of sharpest focus is, so have to go and find it. They only know where sharpest focus is when they've actually just gone past it, then double back to the precise position, checking and double-checking all the time until it's dead right. In other words, contrast-detect inherently has a self checking procedure built in which automatically compensates for any inconsistencies in the lens.

The Canon EOS-R is phase-detect only. Therefore, it may suffer the same AF problems with some lenses as DSLRs. Unless of course Canon has incorporated some kind of additional final double-check that's absent from their phase-detect DSLRs.
 
I managed a full day out with my EOS R on a bird of prey photography workshop yesterday. For what it's worth, here's one of the photographs that I took. Hopefully Flickr hasn't completely mullered it.

Tawny Owl by Simon Harrison, on Flickr

I'll share some thoughts on the camera coming from m4/3 this evening after work, but suffice to say I am extremely pleased with how it performed. If there is any loss of performance in using an EF lens via the adaptor, even an old one like the EF 70-200mm f4 L non IS, then I certainly couldn't detect it.

Cheers,

Simon.
 
john.margetts said:
That does not stop Sigma making lenses to fit Canon and Nikon bodies, though, even if that means they sell fewer Sigma bodies.
Click to expand...

.... I didn't even know that Sigma manufactured camera bodies. Is that a recent thing?

Surely their principle business, and certainly reputation, has been for only offering third-party lenses to fit other camera body manufacturers.
 
srhmoto said:
I managed a full day out with my EOS R on a bird of prey photography workshop yesterday. For what it's worth, here's one of the photographs that I took. Hopefully Flickr hasn't completely mullered it.

I'll share some thoughts on the camera coming from m4/3 this evening after work, but suffice to say I am extremely pleased with how it performed. If there is any loss of performance in using an EF lens via the adaptor, even an old one like the EF 70-200mm f4 L non IS, then I certainly couldn't detect it.
Click to expand...

.... Great shot, Simon! - Very typical Owlish attitude captured.

Reading your EXIF data on Flickr, it looks like you RAW converted the CR3 file to Photoshop. Did you apply any noise reduction (NR) in post-processing? Owl plumage invariably looks ultra soft but I think I can detect NR applied quite strongly. Or did you use an EOS R noise reduction setting onboard?

I'm not criticising your picture (NR and processing is very much a matter of personal taste) but am more interested in the definition or clarity which the CR3 RAW file is offering.

^ ^ ^ My apologies! Since posting the above I viewed your image at full size and it's tack sharp on the face where it should be and the rest is F/6.3 DoF. The clarity and definition is excellent!!
 
Last edited:
RedRobin said:
.... Great shot, Simon! - Very typical Owlish attitude captured.

Reading your EXIF data on Flickr, it looks like you RAW converted the CR3 file to Photoshop. Did you apply any noise reduction (NR) in post-processing? Owl plumage invariably looks ultra soft but I think I can detect NR applied quite strongly. Or did you use an EOS R noise reduction setting onboard?

I'm not criticising your picture (NR and processing is very much a matter of personal taste) but am more interested in the definition or clarity which the CR3 RAW file is offering.
Click to expand...

That’s an interesting observation Robin. I used no in camera noise reduction and none in LR or PS. Coming from m4/3, I was delighted with how noise free the image was at ISO2000. I was close to the bird and having to be careful balancing shutter speed and aperture in the available light, so there are most definitely parts of the bird that are outside the plane of focus. The detail in the birds head in the raw file is superb.

Simon.
 
srhmoto said:
That’s an interesting observation Robin. I used no in camera noise reduction and none in LR or PS. Coming from m4/3, I was delighted with how noise free the image was at ISO2000. I was close to the bird and having to be careful balancing shutter speed and aperture in the available light, so there are most definitely parts of the bird that are outside the plane of focus. The detail in the birds head in the raw file is superb.

Simon.
Click to expand...

.... My observation is load of b****x, Simon! I just edited my Reply #2740 accordingly. My apologies.
 
srhmoto said:
I managed a full day out with my EOS R on a bird of prey photography workshop yesterday. For what it's worth, here's one of the photographs that I took. Hopefully Flickr hasn't completely mullered it.

I'll share some thoughts on the camera coming from m4/3 this evening after work, but suffice to say I am extremely pleased with how it performed. If there is any loss of performance in using an EF lens via the adaptor, even an old one like the EF 70-200mm f4 L non IS, then I certainly couldn't detect it.
Click to expand...

.... Flickr has most definitely not mullered it, Simon! I am enjoying superb definition on the face when viewing on my 27" iMac.

If anyone needed proof that the EF-RF Adapter does not compromise image quality, this is an excellent example.

I am looking forward to being able to convert and process my R images even more after seeing this. Come on CaptureOne! Get that CR3 support finished!
 
john.margetts said:
https://www.sigma-imaging-uk.com/camera-centres/
Click to expand...

.... An interesting mirrorless compact but quickly reading a review I would be going for a Canon M-series if I wanted a compact. OEM (Canon) lenses on OEM (Canon) bodies is always going to exploit the features and give better results. I thought 'quattro' was a registered trademark belonging to Audi VAG car manufacturers. As with both cars and cameras, you get what you pay for, in my opinion.

I won't say any more on this subject to then take this thread off-topic.
 
Last edited:
I can’t really see the point of that test. He appears to be using all AF points active. A better test would be to use single point because that’s what most people would use in this scenario, wouldn’t they?
 
Gaz J said:
I can’t really see the point of that test. He appears to be using all AF points active. A better test would be to use single point because that’s what most people would use in this scenario, wouldn’t they?
Click to expand...

I'm more bothered that everything he's showing us in his hands is well out of focus due to the very shallow DOF, why whyyyy...
 
Phil V said:
Richard, are you telling me that the universally accepted notion that phase detect AF is more accurate is not strictly true?
Click to expand...

Not really. Just saying that because of the way contrast-detect AF works, it automatically double-checks that the final focus position is correct, and readjusts if necessary. Phase-detect on the other hand has to trust the lens to do exactly what it's told. Phase-detect relies on high mechanical precision, which is rarely a problem except with one or two wayward lenses, and has other significant advantages. EOS-R is the first mirrorless camera to use phase-detect AF exclusively.
 
RedRobin said:
.... I am looking forward to being able to convert and process my R images even more after seeing this. Come on CaptureOne! Get that CR3 support finished!
Click to expand...

Robin have you considered using Canon's DPP software to access the CR3 files. Maybe a possible stopgap workflow and it may be possible to transfer into CaptureOne as a full rez TIFF file.
Just a thought.
 
HoppyUK said:
Not really. Just saying that because of the way contrast-detect AF works, it automatically double-checks that the final focus position is correct, and readjusts if necessary. Phase-detect on the other hand has to trust the lens to do exactly what it's told. Phase-detect relies on high mechanical precision, which is rarely a problem except with one or two wayward lenses, and has other significant advantages. EOS-R is the first mirrorless camera to use phase-detect AF exclusively.
Click to expand...

This is one of the better explanations between phase detect, contrast and hybrid AF systems I’ve seen

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaJFOH_gmGM


Cheers,

Simon
 
simonbarker said:
I'm more bothered that everything he's showing us in his hands is well out of focus due to the very shallow DOF, why whyyyy...
Click to expand...

Gaz J said:
I can’t really see the point of that test. He appears to be using all AF points active. A better test would be to use single point because that’s what most people would use in this scenario, wouldn’t they?
Click to expand...

.... Agreed with both Gary and Simon! And using SERVO on a multi AF points zone in his chosen test scene is bound to result in a low percentage of hits. His test seemed to be more about how many single shots he could get in 60 seconds irrespective of anything else.

As an aside I found his hairstyle very distracting but in a bad way but then noticed his watchstrap and understood his styling was gay. But quite apart from this observation, this video anyway will do nothing to convince anyone of anything either way about EF adapted lenses. The photographer cocked it up.
 
Steve B said:
Robin have you considered using Canon's DPP software to access the CR3 files. Maybe a possible stopgap workflow and it may be possible to transfer into CaptureOne as a full rez TIFF file.
Just a thought.
Click to expand...

.... Hi Steve and thanks.

Yes I have considered using Canon's DPP but the exported TIFF files are reported to lose data if using this method.

Converting the RAW CR3 files (non-destructively) in Adobe's free version 11 converter loses less info apparently but I can wait for CaptureOne anyway - I have plenty to get on with editing and processing my backlog of CR2 images and I use my 1DX-2 as my primary body. The R will primarily only get used on my EF 100mm Macro and RF 24-105mm lenses and that's the reason I bought it, no other, except occasional very low on tripod when the tilted Vari-angle screen will save me getting into awkward and possibly embarrassing positions on the ground as I'm a dyslexic 17yo at 71 < "Excuse me, Miss... Would you please help me get back up?".
 
After a good six hours of photography with the EOS R over the weekend I thought I would share some initial thoughts on how I felt the camera performed, both good and bad. To put things in to perspective, I moved from a Canon 1D mk II and 7D 9+ years ago and have used Panasonic Lumix m4/3 cameras since. I moved from their flagship photography camera (the G9) to the EOS R.

The G9 is known for the quality of its EVF, and I don’t find the one the EOS R has to be any sort of step back whatsoever. To all intents and purposes, it feels like looking through an OVF in almost all circumstances, with the added benefit of way more shooting information and of course being able to see exactly what your exposure is going to be. I should qualify this by saying that I have used EVFs for the last 9 years and am a big fan of them. I didn’t experience any tearing or lag when using it, including when trying to follow fast moving birds with it in less than stellar light. The viewfinder is large and with good eye relief. I’m a spectacles wearer, and had no problems wearing my glasses while using the camera. Maybe I just haven’t worked out how to turn it on, but on my G9 there was an over exposure warning that highlighted blown areas live through the EVF while composing even when taking stills. At the moment, it appears that’s only available on the EOS R during playback. I found this extremely useful, and if it’s not there already, would love to see it added with a future firmware update. All in all though, I’ve found the EVF experience to be extremely good.

Coming from the G9 and its contrast based focusing system, the EOS feels different in use and I am still adjusting to it. While not slow, the EOS R does not feel as instantaneous in AF as the G9 did. I’m sure I’m splitting hairs here, but I did perceive a difference. However, I have so far found it to be very accurate in single shot AF and AI Servo for slow moving subjects (AI Servo performed very well as perched birds moved and twitched on the workshop I attended on Sunday). So far, I’ve tended to shoot using either a single AF point, or single AF point with 9 additional points around it. I have done some shots with face / eye detect AF, but so far found it inconsistent, and not as good as the G9. When it nails it, it really does nail it. However, it can miss and spectacle wears do seem to cause it some issues. Having said all of that, I am still adjusting to the different system and I am sure I will learn all of the EOS R’s AF foibles in time. I should also add that I’ve been caught out by lack of DoF on several occasions so far, which is probably not surprising saying I came from m4/3.

I’ve had very little opportunity to use AI Servo AF, but so far my experience echos what Robin has found. The last thing we did on the workshop I attended at the weekend was some in flight shots of a Great Grey Owl. Now I am no BiF expert, and we were taking these in woodland with rapidly failing light, but the keeper rate was very, very low with the bird flying straight down the barrel of the lens. I didn’t have any opportunity to adjust any of the AI Servo settings, so that might well have helped things and nor was I using one of Canon’s most recent L lenses. I hope to test AI Servo more next weekend when I head up to Croft Circuit. I suspect it will do much better on bigger targets with more predictable movement. However, I also strongly suspect that the EOS R is in no way a dedicated sports or wildlife camera! From my experience, the G9 would not have handled the BiF shooting any better than the EOS R.

I started off using the D pad to move my focus point around, but very quickly moved to using my thumb in the top right corner of the LCD screen. The rest of the LCD doesn’t respond to any touch when setup like this, so my nose resting against it didn’t have any affect or impact on performance. I found this to be a quick (so long as you weren’t going from one side of the frame to the other when two swipes of the thumb were usually needed) and accurate way to do things. I just had to remember to lift my thumb completely off the screen before moving it, otherwise it took the focus point with it. My G9 had this functionality, but it also had a joystick so I never made use of it although I kinda wish I had now. I’m sure with practice, I could be just about as quick as I would be with a joystick. I don’t have particularly large (or small) hands and found using the LCD to position the focus point with the camera to my eye and finger on the shutter button very comfortable indeed.

On that point, I found the whole ergonomics of the camera to be fantastic. Ergonomics are a very personal thing, but I found the EOS R to be excellent in this regard and extremely comfortable to use for extended periods of time handheld. With the way I had customised it, I never once had to go into the menus to make any adjustment while shooting. I just need to develop the muscle memory for where all the buttons are LOL.

The main reason I moved from the G9 to full frame was for increased image quality, and I am certainly not disappointed. I spent most of Saturday shooting between ISO1600 and ISO6400, and the images are far, far better then I ever would’ve got from my G9 at the same ISO. I will need to get some faster memory cards though, as those big raw files took some writing to what I have now.

So, there you go – my initial thoughts after a full day’s shooting with the EOS R. So far, I am extremely happy I made the change from the G9, as it is delivering exactly what I wanted. Apologies for the long post, but hopefully somebody will find it useful.

Cheers,

Simon.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I forgot to mention battery life.

I think the EOS R battery is officially rated somewhere around 350 shots from memory. On Sunday, I took 1200+ shots (I know, I know LOL) with plenty of chimping via the EVF over a 5 hour period and the battery indicator still showed one block (of 4) remaining. I hardly used the LCD, and had it turned off apart from the touch functionality for moving the AF point. This was with the original Canon battery supplied with the camera. This is far better than the G9 would’ve done. We’ll see how repeatable that is going forward.

Simon.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top