Car buyers should have 'long, hard think' about diesel

[MatBin]

I have had 2 Focus with 2.0 tdci diesel engines, total mileage 180,000 and the only failure was a wheel bearing. Now I know that's hardly a massive sample but I would happily buy another dmf Focus based on my experience. Perhaps when you produce a large number of vehicles the small percentage that have an issue seems like a large number, in the same way we are all stating that auto piloted Tesla's seem to keep hitting stationary objects, when in fact it's only a small percentage but seems like a lot because they keep hitting the headlines (amongst other things they keep hitting)

 

[Nod]

(Currently) as useful to us in the UK as Ford's EV range but interesting to hear that a battery swap isn't too hard to do if/when it becomes necessary (and that the battery's placement leaves it undamaged [usually] if the car's involved in even a fairly major prang.)

 

[nilagin]

(Currently) as useful to us in the UK as Ford's EV range but interesting to hear that a battery swap isn't too hard to do if/when it becomes necessary (and that the battery's placement leaves it undamaged [usually] if the car's involved in even a fairly major prang.)

You could have just as easily bought a Ford EV in the UK in 2013 as you could a Nissan Leaf. Production of rhd models ceased around 2016/17 But the lhd models which would be available in more markets and more viable to produce, ceased production in 2018.

 

[DK602]

I can see you are new to the forum and with the vast number of posts you won't have read them all, so I will fill you in on why it would appear I am criticising Tesla or have a beef with Tesla.
We have a member who is an advocate of EV. I have no problem with that in itself. He bought it 2nd hand, he is able to charge it at home and because of all that it works for him as opposed to running a ICE car, although he does have one of those too. Again all fine, I have no problem with it.
Obviously there are only so many 2nd hand EV available and new ones have to be bought and then traded in or resold for more to appear. It has been pointed out to this particular gentleman that buying a new EV is expensive compared to an equivalent ICE car. He then goes on to tell us that as no fossil fuel needs to be bought they are cheaper to run. Myself and other members have pointed out to him countless times that including the purchase the new car, it takes several years for an EV to reach the break even point and then actually become cheaper to run. Now it isn't s secret on this forum who I work for. Yet when people's backs are against the wall and their argument has gone pear shaped, I get, where is the Ford EV, I can buy, this Ford car has this problem, that Ford car has that problem. Sound familiar?
Now one particular person likes Tesla cars, again I have no problem with that, everyone likes different makes or types of cars. Now this thread is all stems from Deiselgate and governments strive to lower emissions and the move to cleaner vehicles. People contribute different aspects whether it is more diesel scandal, a new EV comes to market etc and for his part, this particular gentleman may post something about Tesla. As it is a forum, posts may or may not get a response, some lead to a discussion, some don't. Now posts have been made about how well the Tesla Model 3 is doing, how it is outselling not only EV cars, but also it's ICE competitors in some markets. Great for Tesla, I have no problem with it. But sales numbers are just the number of cars registered each month or year. I have simply pointed out with the number of pre orders that Tesla recieved for the Model 3 and the fact that it they only started producing cars in June/July 2017 but took until June/July 2018 to start producing cars in any meaningful numbers, there has been a sudden surge in the number of cars being registered. I have also pointed out that with the number of pre orders that Tesla had recieved and the total number of Model 3's that Tesla had produced, they were still in fact working their way through the pre orders. A true indication of how well sales were doing could only be found once those cars had been built and registered and that new orders were being met. Now some people don't like such rational and logical thinking, I get accused of making things up to suit my own agenda and when they start floundering, once again the old chestnuts get rolled out. Where's the Ford EV? Ford are just playing catch up, Ford are being left behind. Why haven't Ford released details and evidence of there future electric vehicles. Ford are just happy to keep imposing their fossil fuelled polluting vehicles on customers, they have no interest in EV.
Then we get the remarks that we should be thankful to Tesla for raising the interest in EV and they are the reason that EV is a growing market. I point out that the growing EV demand is actually down to the impending emissions regulations that will prevent the sale of new cars, powered solely by an ICE, they will have to be fully electric or at least a hybrid capable of travelling a minimum distance under electric power.
If I was slating Tesla, I would have made a point of making a post about the range reduction due to software update, a week ago when it first came to my attention, but I didn't, because I would have just got the same old s*** about Ford. When I finally did mention it, guess what, you proved me right.

[/QUOTE]


No matter how you try to disguise it, it is you (as a very loyal employee of Ford) that has your back against the wall as they do not produce any product to compete with the Likes of Tesla.

To criticise another company (which you clearly are) that is developing EV's and already has a very good product to market is rather strange IMO.

 

[MatBin]

No matter how you try to disguise it, it is you (as a very loyal employee of Ford) that has your back against the wall as they do not produce any product to compete with the Likes of Tesla.

To criticise another company (which you clearly are) that is developing EV's and already has a very good product to market is rather strange IMO.

I don't see it as odd at all. Tesla and to be fair the other manufacturers are not producing what the majority want or need from an EV and as such can be criticised regardless of whom we work for. I work for an oil and gas company it may be seen that I too have a vested interest but in all honesty there is no EV that can replace my current diesel, when something becomes available I will give it serious consideration, at present it may be a 2/3 yr old Tesla 3, if Tesla look like they will stay in business in 2 yes time then they will be contenders but tbh when the bigger players get their act together and create what the majority of us want I personally think Tesla as a car manufacturer will die.

 

[Deleted sulking member 63079]

I have had 2 Focus with 2.0 tdci diesel engines, total mileage 180,000 and the only failure was a wheel bearing. Now I know that's hardly a massive sample but I would happily buy another dmf Focus based on my experience. Perhaps when you produce a large number of vehicles the small percentage that have an issue seems like a large number, in the same way we are all stating that auto piloted Tesla's seem to keep hitting stationary objects, when in fact it's only a small percentage but seems like a lot because they keep hitting the headlines (amongst other things they keep hitting)

Mine needed a dmf at 125k. Didn't see it as an issue even then tbh

 

[DK602]

I don't see it as odd at all. Tesla and to be fair the other manufacturers are not producing what the majority want or need from an EV and as such can be criticised regardless of whom we work for. I work for an oil and gas company it may be seen that I too have a vested interest but in all honesty there is no EV that can replace my current diesel, when something becomes available I will give it serious consideration, at present it may be a 2/3 yr old Tesla 3, if Tesla look like they will stay in business in 2 yes time then they will be contenders but tbh when the bigger players get their act together and create what the majority of us want I personally think Tesla as a car manufacturer will die.

What do you want/need and what do you feel others want/need from an EV?

 

[PaulF]

What do you want/need and what do you feel others want/need from an EV?

Throughout this thread it has become quite clear what people want and need from an EV.

The basics are:
Affordability, competitive to the current class of car for the average person. Tesla are out on that point alone.
Range. 250-300 minimum in winter.
Ability to do every journey not just the average daily commute. Why should we have to hire a vehicle to do longer journeys as has been suggested.
Quick charging.
Infrastructure.
Good solid build quality.
Towing ability for some.

In a nutshell, be a direct replacement for the current car.

And, if you're anything like my wife, not be ugly is the top priority!

Depending on price the VW ID range could be interesting.

 

[wyx087]

The biggest problem i see with electric vehicles is not the vehicles themselves but the infrastructure to support them?

I remember the National Grid used to suffer at 5.30pm when everyone got home from work and put the kettle on/started making tea - how will it cope when we are all plugging our cars in for charging?

Likewise the UK has numerous terraced housing/on road parking - how are people going to charge their vehicles?

Time-of-use tariff will solve this. All EV have the ability to set charge timer. If during 4-8pm electricity costs more (when there's high demand for something, it costs more), people will learn to make better use of electricity. Incentive to install home battery or Vehicle-2-grid/home will also help.
eg. https://www.theguardian.com/money/2...launches-first-time-of-day-electricity-tariff

On-road parking can be solved without expensive infrastructure work by upgrading lamp posts with charging sockets.

I think it is the en-route charging that's more important and currently biggest barrier to EV adoption. It needs to be as simple as pulling into petrol station.

You could have just as easily bought a Ford EV in the UK in 2013 as you could a Nissan Leaf. Production of rhd models ceased around 2016/17 But the lhd models which would be available in more markets and more viable to produce, ceased production in 2018.

Had there been any marketing push to sell the Focus EV? Why can't I find any deals (you could say it's hot deals in UK ) for Forucs EV back then? Whereas I can see loads of £199 deals on the Nissan Leaf.

 

[wyx087]

It has been pointed out to this particular gentleman that buying a new EV is expensive compared to an equivalent ICE car. He then goes on to tell us that as no fossil fuel needs to be bought they are cheaper to run. Myself and other members have pointed out to him countless times that including the purchase the new car, it takes several years for an EV to reach the break even point and then actually become cheaper to run.

Then we get the remarks that we should be thankful to Tesla for raising the interest in EV and they are the reason that EV is a growing market. I point out that the growing EV demand is actually down to the impending emissions regulations that will prevent the sale of new cars, powered solely by an ICE, they will have to be fully electric or at least a hybrid capable of travelling a minimum distance under electric power.

You forgot to mention your failed attempt at understanding regenerative braking.
Your failed attempt at claiming Tesla doesn't show price of the car.
Your failed attempt at claiming VW ID-R electric car did not have Goodwood speed record.
(that's just from last few pages)
A bit further back, almost everytime someone says something good about EV's, you do your best to dismiss it. Eg. cabin pre-conditioning.

EV needing long time to breakeven has been debunked many times.


EV demand require customer education, just like adverts for diesel in the 90/00's. There has not been many customer education campaign from traditional manufacturers until recently. If all manufacturers went all on EV's in in early 2010's, when the tech became available, by now we will have EV of all shape and sizes, all price ranges and lots of second hand choices. But manufacturers waited until emission regulations required them to change.

So it's chickens and eggs. You claim EV are coming due to emission regulations. But another way to look at it is that EV's had been held back from mass adoption due to lack of marketing campaign, lack of awareness, only Tesla had been pushing solely EV's from early 2010's. Hence, it seems like we have to be thankful to Tesla for raising interesting in EV's.


You've posted as though you are the victim. But the truth is that no one would mention Ford until you try to use the single Focus EV as example for "no demand"; no one would even think of Ford's lack of EV until you kept posting Ford PR pages for their upcoming EV.

I am sure Tesla will be so pleased you over looked (2nd time this week) the 2008 Roadster. Which had a range of 200 miles.
The 2011 Leaf actually had a marginally shorter range than the 2011 Focus Electric

We all know he was asking which Ford EV he could go into the dealers today and buy and how it would be superior to a Tesla. He knows full well that no Ford Ev's are currently on sale in the UK, he, like yourself was trying to be a smart arse.

The 2008 Roadster, back in 2008 lacked quick charging capability.
The 2011 Focus Electric could not quick charge. According to Wikipedia, referencing 3 sources, Ford only added CCS rapid charging to Focus EV in 2017: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Focus_Electric
So, both cars you mentioned could not do long distance driving in the same way as 2011 Nissan Leaf or 2012 Tesla Model S. They are not capable of replacing ICE car, thus they are not on the same technology level as today's EV unless this feature has been added (eg. Tesla Roadster can be adopted to accept Chademo quick charging)

If we all know the question was invalid, why did you quote the question again with wording intended to provoke response?

 

[nilagin]

On-road parking can be solved without expensive infrastructure work by upgrading lamp posts with charging sockets.



Had there been any marketing push to sell the Focus EV? Why can't I find any deals (you could say it's hot deals in UK ) for Forucs EV back then? Whereas I can see loads of £199 deals on the Nissan Leaf.

If you use lamp posts as charging points for on street parking, straight away you have restricted the number of parking spaces for residents who also need to make use of the on street parking spaces. Also you have to consider where the lampposts are positioned. The four nearest lamp posts to me are all in no parking areas.

The UK release of the Focus Electric was mentioned in not only the motoring magazines but also the national press at the time as well as online EV sites. Why would there need to be deals. Anyone looking to buy an EV would have researched what Ev's were available to buy.
The UK and Europe was not long out of a financial crash, many car manufacturers had to seek bailouts, Ford at the time were making a loss in Europe and needed to get back in profit, the Focus Electric was already being sold at a loss, why would they want to make a bigger loss?
The reason that sales of the Electric were poor is because, as I keep repeating, there was little interest in EV and they are too expensive.
The government EV subsidy was introduced in January 2011. By the time the Focus Electric was launched in the UK in September 2013, approximately 4.5k Ev's had been sold. This was at a time when monthly UK car sales stood at around 65k cars a month.

 

[PaulF]

EV needing long time to breakeven has been debunked many times.

Tesla Model 3 (Standard - cheapest) will have fuel saving of £9500 over 5 years according to Tesla based on 12,500 miles per year. This would bring the cost of the Model 3 down to just short of £28k including the £3.5k Govn Grant on initial purchase.
Or, put another way, the Model 3 is £40,840 cash price without the grant, £37,340 incl the grant.
As most people who purchase new cars tend not to keep them for 5 years plus the fuel saving figures could be a little misleading. The second owner could be the one to reap the rewards after the initial depreciation has been absorbed by the original owner.

The cost saving down to fuel is very dependant on the miles per year and length of ownership. The more miles per year the better the cost saving potentially pushing the EV to being the better option financially, the lack of range and infrastructure currently makes achieving the higher mileage less attractive.

The VW ID first release car (the mid range one) is suggested to be around £34k before the grant. With the far better VW build quality over the Tesla it 'could' be the game changer people are waiting for. My wife even liked the look of one she was on TV last week

 

[wyx087]

The UK release of the Focus Electric was mentioned in not only the motoring magazines but also the national press at the time as well as online EV sites. Why would there need to be deals. Anyone looking to buy an EV would have researched what Ev's were available to buy.
The UK and Europe was not long out of a financial crash, many car manufacturers had to seek bailouts, Ford at the time were making a loss in Europe and needed to get back in profit, the Focus Electric was already being sold at a loss, why would they want to make a bigger loss?
The reason that sales of the Electric were poor is because, as I keep repeating, there was little interest in EV and they are too expensive.
The government EV subsidy was introduced in January 2011. By the time the Focus Electric was launched in the UK in September 2013, approximately 4.5k Ev's had been sold. This was at a time when monthly UK car sales stood at around 65k cars a month.

As said in above post, Focus EV cannot compete with Nissan Leaf. It has a smaller battery (Wikipedia says 23kWh, Leaf has 24kWh), most importantly no rapid charging capability. The Focus EV is akin to 1800's EV, whereas the 2011 Nissan Leaf can be driven long distance without waiting 7 hours for battery to recharge.

Ford Focus EV is a half arsed product, not made to compete, but made to be compliant. It is made to look as though Ford is following the trend. It was not made to sell because it has not been engineered to be made in volume (hence "sold at a loss"). Basing any industry trend on this poor EV imitation is beyond stupid.

 

[wyx087]

The cost saving down to fuel is very dependant on the miles per year and length of ownership. The more miles per year the better the cost saving potentially pushing the EV to being the better option financially, the lack of range and infrastructure currently makes achieving the higher mileage less attractive.

Bingo! Unfortunately many people look at EV and think "it can drive 300 miles, I only drive 30 miles a day, it should be suitable for me". Then work out the cost to be more expensive. No, that's not how utilisation works. You are paying a premium to have those extra range, so if you don't use it, of course you won't get your money's worth.

That's why I see the fragmented and lacking en-route charging infrastructure is currently the biggest barrier to EV adoption. You need to get people to be comfortable taking EV out of their home range, otherwise people will default back to what they are familiar with: huge range that only gets used once a blue moon.


Before en-route charging infrastructure for other cars is as good as Tesla's superchargers (plug and charge, many charging bays at every location). I feel a petrol range extender engine like the i3 REx or LEVC is the best solution. You carry around extra weight in similar way as extra battery for the range, but this allows you to fall back to use petrol stations if the single/twin charger is unavailable (in use, broken or you don't have membership). Benefit of REx EV is that it still has all benefit of full EV: charging flexibility and full EV drivetrain.

 

[nilagin]

You forgot to mention your failed attempt at understanding regenerative braking.
Your failed attempt at claiming Tesla doesn't show price of the car.
Your failed attempt at claiming VW ID-R electric car did not have Goodwood speed record.
(that's just from last few pages)
A bit further back, almost everytime someone says something good about EV's, you do your best to dismiss it. Eg. cabin pre-conditioning.

EV needing long time to breakeven has been debunked many times.


EV demand require customer education, just like adverts for diesel in the 90/00's. There has not been many customer education campaign from traditional manufacturers until recently. If all manufacturers went all on EV's in in early 2010's, when the tech became available, by now we will have EV of all shape and sizes, all price ranges and lots of second hand choices. But manufacturers waited until emission regulations required them to change.

So it's chickens and eggs. You claim EV are coming due to emission regulations. But another way to look at it is that EV's had been held back from mass adoption due to lack of marketing campaign, lack of awareness, only Tesla had been pushing solely EV's from early 2010's. Hence, it seems like we have to be thankful to Tesla for raising interesting in EV's.


You've posted as though you are the victim. But the truth is that no one would mention Ford until you try to use the single Focus EV as example for "no demand"; no one would even think of Ford's lack of EV until you kept posting Ford PR pages for their upcoming EV.


The 2008 Roadster, back in 2008 lacked quick charging capability.
The 2011 Focus Electric could not quick charge. According to Wikipedia, referencing 3 sources, Ford only added CCS rapid charging to Focus EV in 2017: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Focus_Electric
So, both cars you mentioned could not do long distance driving in the same way as 2011 Nissan Leaf or 2012 Tesla Model S. They are not capable of replacing ICE car, thus they are not on the same technology level as today's EV unless this feature has been added (eg. Tesla Roadster can be adopted to accept Chademo quick charging)

If we all know the question was invalid, why did you quote the question again with wording intended to provoke response?

My failed attempt at understanding regenerative braking was because of the b******t information you supplied. When I repeated what you had said, someone else said it is nothing like that at all and you even liked his post.
I never claimed Tesla didn't display the price. What I actually said was that Tesla was displaying a false price in the most prominent place. Proof being that Tesla have now been told twice to by a German governing body to stop doing it.
You bring up Ford's lack of current EV and are playing catch up at every opportunity when you lose an argument. I then have to remind you that with 40 ev/hybrid vehicles 16 of which will be fully electric, to be launched around the world by 2023 is hardly the actions of a company playing catch up.

As for the VW ID-R Goodwood record. You are still ignoring the fact it was a vehicle built for one purpose only. It doesn't conform to any restriction or governance like other vehicles. When Goodwood was broadcast live it was said that the record breaking time was set during a practice session and failed during it's official timed run which took place on the Sunday. That decision was rescinded days later. That is hardly debunked. But I forget, it is an EV it can write it's own rule book. Gone are the days that a qualifying lap record can be set outside of a qualifying session, gone are the days of an official lap record not having to be set during an actual race.

 

[nilagin]

As said in above post, Focus EV cannot compete with Nissan Leaf. It has a smaller battery (Wikipedia says 23kWh, Leaf has 24kWh), most importantly no rapid charging capability. The Focus EV is akin to 1800's EV, whereas the 2011 Nissan Leaf can be driven long distance without waiting 7 hours for battery to recharge.

Ford Focus EV is a half arsed product, not made to compete, but made to be compliant. It is made to look as though Ford is following the trend. It was not made to sell because it has not been engineered to be made in volume (hence "sold at a loss"). Basing any industry trend on this poor EV imitation is beyond stupid.

Although the Focus battery was smaller, the official government figures state the Focus was capable of an extra mile compared to the Leaf. Even if the Leaf was capable of rapid charging with only a few hundred charging points in the UK in 2011. By November 2013 there was around 5k charging points in the UK and only 200 of those were rapid chargers. You would have to hope you could find a charge point anywhere near your route to have a realistic chance of a long journey.

 

[nilagin]

Ford Focus EV is a half arsed product, not made to compete, but made to be compliant. It is made to look as though Ford is following the trend. It was not made to sell because it has not been engineered to be made in volume (hence "sold at a loss"). Basing any industry trend on this poor EV imitation is beyond stupid.

Explain how a half arsed product was able to offer a marginally better range from a marginally smaller battery as well as rated by the press, to have better handling than the Leaf.
How do you know the Focus wasn't engineered for mass production. It was built on the same production lines as any other Focus. Their is only one manufacturer who makes engineered for volume Ev's whose profit / loss figures are readily available because all the other manufacturers build ice cars and the figures aren't broken down into powertrain.
So let's take a look at the results for this engineered for mass production EV manufacturer. In 16yrs they have made just 4 quarterly profits ( I thought it was 2 But it is actually 4) First 5yrs they weren't selling cars so no profit to be expected. It wasn't until June 2018 that mass production really started on any of it's vehicles. 3rd Quarter 2018 they make a profit of $321M followed by 4th quarterly profit of $129M. However 1st quarter 2019, a loss of over $700M is made followed by a loss of over $400M in the 2nd quarter, Even though they are now mass producing and recording "sales" in some markets not only outstripping equivalent ice vehicles but also being the best selling EV. Kind of destroys your theory doesn't it.

 

[Deleted sulking member 63079]

Throughout this thread it has become quite clear what people want and need from an EV.

The basics are:
Affordability, competitive to the current class of car for the average person. Tesla are out on that point alone.
Range. 250-300 minimum in winter.
Ability to do every journey not just the average daily commute. Why should we have to hire a vehicle to do longer journeys as has been suggested.
Quick charging.
Infrastructure.
Good solid build quality.
Towing ability for some.

In a nutshell, be a direct replacement for the current car.

And, if you're anything like my wife, not be ugly is the top priority!

Depending on price the VW ID range could be interesting.

The towing issue is a bit of a myth though, I've seen lots claiming they aren't able to tow, but I believe it's just that a lot of models haven't gone through the necessary certification for how much they can tow. There's a reason diesel trains have electric motors afterall.

 

[PaulF]

The towing issue is a bit of a myth though, I've seen lots claiming they aren't able to tow, but I believe it's just that a lot of models haven't gone through the necessary certification for how much they can tow. There's a reason diesel trains have electric motors afterall.

That may be so, but the question was "What do you want/need and what do you feel others want/need from an EV?", I was just replying with what I see in this tread as an answer to that question. I have no desire to tow anything personally

 

[MatBin]

Throughout this thread it has become quite clear what people want and need from an EV.

The basics are:
Affordability, competitive to the current class of car for the average person. Tesla are out on that point alone.
Range. 250-300 minimum in winter.
Ability to do every journey not just the average daily commute. Why should we have to hire a vehicle to do longer journeys as has been suggested.
Quick charging.
Infrastructure.
Good solid build quality.
Towing ability for some.

In a nutshell, be a direct replacement for the current car.

And, if you're anything like my wife, not be ugly is the top priority!

Depending on price the VW ID range could be interesting.

Spot on, sadly some people continue to put forward other options, particularly once in a while long distance range being a red-herring/white elephant we can ignore, personally I want the option of being able to do a long journey in MY vehicle and not some hire car. Whenever I have hired a car it's a PIA collecting/returning at their convenience and not mine etc. taking out sufficient insurance/damage waiver etc, can I take it abroad (probably not). If I own a car I want it to fit in with my lifestyle not the other way around. And it needs to be good looking, something the vast majority of EVs do not achieve, even the Tesla 3 looks like a pig (and apparently the "cheap" one doesn't handle too well when pushed - Top Gear report).
A £40K+ ticket price on an EV pushes it into luxury road tax bracket, something that keeps getting ignored and for me (and I guess a lot of people) £40K is a luxury brand, ignore the PCP payments that's just sticking your head in the sand and ignoring the actual cost of the vehicle, running costs (assuming electricity stays at its current price or thereabouts) do not detract from the actual cost of the vehicle, Teslas are not mass market vehicles in the UK at their "new" price. As I approach retirement I do not wish to "purchase" a car with a 50% new cost balloon payment in 3 years, I suspect I am not alone, either as an OAP or as an average buyer, PCP is hire purchase in another name with continued onward costs plus if and when interest rates climb again (anyone else remember 15% interest rates) PCP will be unaffordable.

So, your points above fall in line with my own thoughts.

 

[wyx087]

Although the Focus battery was smaller, the official government figures state the Focus was capable of an extra mile compared to the Leaf. Even if the Leaf was capable of rapid charging with only a few hundred charging points in the UK in 2011. By November 2013 there was around 5k charging points in the UK and only 200 of those were rapid chargers. You would have to hope you could find a charge point anywhere near your route to have a realistic chance of a long journey.

Someone has completed 1600 miles journey in just over 2 days in Nissan Leaf. (source: https://www.scotsman.com/lifestyle/...2-mile-trip-in-all-electric-vehicle-1-3907436) Same cannot be done in Ford Focus EV from the same model year.

So, rather than buying an outdated vehicle. People chose to buy a futureproofed vehicle. Thus, it's reasonable to say Focus EV tiny sales number is due to the car being pathetic attempt at being an EV.

Don't feel bad, Mercedes B class EV is the same. Uses Tesla powertrain but because they didn't want to re-engineer the fuel flap, it can only recharge at 11kW, making it impossible for timely long distance drives.

Renault Zoe, i3 and Nissan Leaf are well designed EV's. Their relative popularity shows.

Explain how a half arsed product was able to offer a marginally better range from a marginally smaller battery as well as rated by the press, to have better handling than the Leaf.

Well then, "marginally better" is great for proving your point, but please do quote numbers:
Ford Focus EV 23kWh battery, EPA range: 76 miles. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Focus_Electric
Nissan Leaf 24kWh, EPA range: 75 to 84 miles, depending on whether you charge to 80% or 100%. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Leaf#2014/15_model_year
1 mile of difference. Why did you still choose to point this out despite it's not the issue with Focus EV? It's useless because doesn't do rapid charging.



Please stop trying to wriggle your way out of your old, completely wrong statements:

My failed attempt at understanding regenerative braking was because of the b******t information you supplied. When I repeated what you had said, someone else said it is nothing like that at all and you even liked his post.

The regen braking thing started here, tell me, which part of this explanation is BS?

You buy fuel with money. You burn fuel to accelerate, gaining kinetic energy. You transform kinetic energy into heat via brake system in ICE cars. So in a way, you are burning money whenever braking.

Do you still maintain the other post is opposite of what I've said? Here is the post(https://www.talkphotography.co.uk/t...g-hard-think-about-diesel.648283/post-8490602), he is in reply to you, correcting your misunderstanding.

I never claimed Tesla didn't display the price. What I actually said was that Tesla was displaying a false price in the most prominent place.

No. You said they used after fuel saving price instead of actual price of the vehicle. Your words: "instead of".

Tesla were told to stop misrepresentation of the pricing of their vehicles giving an equivalent price to not having to buy petrol/diesel instead of the actual price of the car.

 

[wyx087]

A £40K+ ticket price on an EV pushes it into luxury road tax bracket, something that keeps getting ignored and for me (and I guess a lot of people) £40K is a luxury brand, ignore the PCP payments that's just sticking your head in the sand and ignoring the actual cost of the vehicle, running costs (assuming electricity stays at its current price or thereabouts) do not detract from the actual cost of the vehicle, Teslas are not mass market vehicles in the UK at their "new" price. As I approach retirement I do not wish to "purchase" a car with a 50% new cost balloon payment in 3 years, I suspect I am not alone, either as an OAP or as an average buyer, PCP is hire purchase in another name with continued onward costs plus if and when interest rates climb again (anyone else remember 15% interest rates) PCP will be unaffordable.

So, your points above fall in line with my own thoughts.

Kia e-Niro?
Hyundai Kona?
VW ID-3? e-Golf?
Nissan Leaf 2019?
There's many choices outside Tesla. Just because Tesla have chosen to price it above £40k doesn't mean all EV's are expensive to buy. That's why this point keeps getting ignored.

 

[MatBin]

F*** m there's more tennis here than at Wimbledon

 

[MatBin]

Kia e-Niro?
Hyundai Kona?
VW ID-3? e-Golf?
Nissan Leaf 2019?
There's many choices outside Tesla. Just because Tesla have chosen to price it above £40k doesn't mean all EV's are expensive to buy. That's why this point keeps getting ignored.

Will they all do 250 miles when it's cold?, are they not all pig ugly, VW isn't available yet, Golf/Kona is too small, Nissan Leaf 2019 - just about not ugly

 

[nilagin]

Someone has completed 1600 miles journey in just over 2 days in Nissan Leaf. (source: https://www.scotsman.com/lifestyle/...2-mile-trip-in-all-electric-vehicle-1-3907436) Same cannot be done in Ford Focus EV from the same model year.

So, rather than buying an outdated vehicle. People chose to buy a futureproofed vehicle. Thus, it's reasonable to say Focus EV tiny sales number is due to the car being pathetic attempt at being an EV.

Don't feel bad, Mercedes B class EV is the same. Uses Tesla powertrain but because they didn't want to re-engineer the fuel flap, it can only recharge at 11kW, making it impossible for timely long distance drives.

Renault Zoe, i3 and Nissan Leaf are well designed EV's. Their relative popularity shows.


Well then, "marginally better" is great for proving your point, but please do quote numbers:
Ford Focus EV 23kWh battery, EPA range: 76 miles. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Focus_Electric
Nissan Leaf 24kWh, EPA range: 75 to 84 miles, depending on whether you charge to 80% or 100%. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Leaf#2014/15_model_year
1 mile of difference. Why did you still choose to point this out despite it's not the issue with Focus EV? It's useless because doesn't do rapid charging.



Please stop trying to wriggle your way out of your old, completely wrong statements:


The regen braking thing started here, tell me, which part of this explanation is BS?

Do you still maintain the other post is opposite of what I've said? Here is the post(https://www.talkphotography.co.uk/t...g-hard-think-about-diesel.648283/post-8490602), he is in reply to you, correcting your misunderstanding.


No. You said they used after fuel saving price instead of actual price of the vehicle. Your words: "instead of".

The two blokes would probably have had a tough job in completing the journey in 2013 though when therek were only 200 fast chargers spread across the UK. Who buys a car that they can't get any decent usage out of straight away and says "But I will be ok in 2yrs time"?

I am not wriggling out of anything. You said that regen braking was configurable, it was like dropping 2 to 3 gears in an ICE vehicle. I said that is very severe, when I questioned it, we were then told it is nothing like that.


You just don't get it do you. The most prominent price that should be displayed is the otr, not a possible fuel saving price and then have to look elsewhere for the real price. It is misrepresentation. That is why they got told off twice and had to correct it.

 

[Deleted sulking member 63079]

Spot on, sadly some people continue to put forward other options, particularly once in a while long distance range being a red-herring/white elephant we can ignore, personally I want the option of being able to do a long journey in MY vehicle and not some hire car. Whenever I have hired a car it's a PIA collecting/returning at their convenience and not mine etc. taking out sufficient insurance/damage waiver etc, can I take it abroad (probably not). If I own a car I want it to fit in with my lifestyle not the other way around. And it needs to be good looking, something the vast majority of EVs do not achieve, even the Tesla 3 looks like a pig (and apparently the "cheap" one doesn't handle too well when pushed - Top Gear report).
A £40K+ ticket price on an EV pushes it into luxury road tax bracket, something that keeps getting ignored and for me (and I guess a lot of people) £40K is a luxury brand, ignore the PCP payments that's just sticking your head in the sand and ignoring the actual cost of the vehicle, running costs (assuming electricity stays at its current price or thereabouts) do not detract from the actual cost of the vehicle, Teslas are not mass market vehicles in the UK at their "new" price. As I approach retirement I do not wish to "purchase" a car with a 50% new cost balloon payment in 3 years, I suspect I am not alone, either as an OAP or as an average buyer, PCP is hire purchase in another name with continued onward costs plus if and when interest rates climb again (anyone else remember 15% interest rates) PCP will be unaffordable.

So, your points above fall in line with my own thoughts.

Much my thoughts, the Tesla Model 3 would do me size wise and range wise.

But, I'm too tight to spend that much on a car.

 

[wyx087]

The two blokes would probably have had a tough job in completing the journey in 2013 though when therek were only 200 fast chargers spread across the UK. Who buys a car that they can't get any decent usage out of straight away and says "But I will be ok in 2yrs time"?

I am not wriggling out of anything. You said that regen braking was configurable, it was like dropping 2 to 3 gears in an ICE vehicle. I said that is very severe, when I questioned it, we were then told it is nothing like that.


You just don't get it do you. The most prominent price that should be displayed is the otr, not a possible fuel saving price and then have to look elsewhere for the real price. It is misrepresentation. That is why they got told off twice and had to correct it.

Now you are not only wiggling, you are changing the focus (ha).

The point is that Focus EV is not EV in today's sense, unlike original Nissan Leaf that is able to travel long distances, the Focus EV cannot travel long distance until 2017 model. Also, Nissan invested in the "Electric Highway", enabling Leaf to be driven up and down the country with rapid charging. Whereas Ford did not. With such a bad attempt, it's no surprise Ford concluded "no demand", it's almost as though they were trying to sell as few as possible.
So, please stop using this bad attempt at EV as your benchmark for the whole of 2011-2017 EV market.

Yes, we were told it's nothing like that. Regen braking feels more pronounced than changing down gears. Meaning it applies more braking force, it's more effective at reducing speed, it can almost be used as a substitute to physical brakes. Which part do you not understand?

For Tesla pricing, you now trying to wriggle out of what you said, now you are saying "most prominent price". Very poor.

Will they all do 250 miles when it's cold?, are they not all pig ugly, VW isn't available yet, Golf/Kona is too small, Nissan Leaf 2019 - just about not ugly

All will do 250 miles with largest battery configuration (Kona, Leaf have cheaper 40kWh versions, ID3 said to have 3 battery sizes)
As I'm not a fan of SUV's, none of them look particular good IMO. New Leaf looks okay, but powertrain is dated compared to Koreans'.
The e-Golf is same exterior size as new VW ID3, difference is the ID3 platform is engineered to be EV from drawing board, interior space is said to feel as large as Passat.

All are below 40k. Which was your beef with Tesla model 3.

Much my thoughts, the Tesla Model 3 would do me size wise and range wise.

But, I'm too tight to spend that much on a car.

Me too, I'm hopeful I can buy a second hand one to replace my long distance car in a few years time.

Currently, given choice of £35k EV vs £40k Tesla, I'd pay more for Tesla due to supercharger network. Otherwise might as well buy a second hand £8k Nissan Leaf for travelling within 30 miles radius everyday. Hopefully in a few years time, this view is no longer valid, en-route charging infrastructure becomes as easy to use and as numerous as petrol pumps.

 

[nilagin]

Now you are not only wiggling, you are changing the focus (ha).

The point is that Focus EV is not EV in today's sense, unlike original Nissan Leaf that is able to travel long distances, the Focus EV cannot travel long distance until 2017 model. Also, Nissan invested in the "Electric Highway", enabling Leaf to be driven up and down the country with rapid charging. Whereas Ford did not. With such a bad attempt, it's no surprise Ford concluded "no demand", it's almost as though they were trying to sell as few as possible.
So, please stop using this bad attempt at EV as your benchmark for the whole of 2011-2017 EV market.

Yes, we were told it's nothing like that. Regen braking feels more pronounced than changing down gears. Meaning it applies more braking force, it's more effective at reducing speed, it can almost be used as a substitute to physical brakes. Which part do you not understand?

For Tesla pricing, you now trying to wriggle out of what you said, now you are saying "most prominent price". Very poor.

You do like to keep mentioning about Ford not having invested into the charging network
Why is that? Is it so that I have to point out that until it started it's own network, neither had Tesla.

You said regenerative braking was like changing down 2-3 gears, I questioned the severity. We were told it wasn't that severe and you even liked the post, that would signify you agreed with this new information, now you are saying it is more forceful. You really need to get a grip and make your mind up.

I am not wriggling out of anything about the Tesla price. Tesla were found to be putting misrepresentative prices next to pictures of the cars. The real prices were to be found elsewhere. You even said yourself in one post, that you found the real pricing with a couple of clicks. Then in a more recent post, you said that you found the real price further down the page. The real price is the one that should be in full view next to the car, not one they have made up.

 

[MatBin]

2019 Leaf with 62kw battery is over £40k and will do 225 miles (presumably in summer/mild weather). Kona is ugly, takes over 9hrs to charge (bang goes off peak electricity) and not now available for 2019. E-golf range and size too small, plus performance is hopeless compared to my 2 litre diesel.
Sorry, nothing is available that I want now or satisfies my needs at a decent price.

 

[PaulF]

Tesla Model 3 (Standard - cheapest) will have fuel saving of £9500 over 5 years according to Tesla based on 12,500 miles per year.

The cost saving down to fuel is very dependant on the miles per year and length of ownership. The more miles per year the better the cost saving potentially pushing the EV to being the better option financially, the lack of range and infrastructure currently makes achieving the higher mileage less attractive.

Stupidly I didn't really check Tesla's figures
My car can easily average 50+mpg without putting any effort into driving efficiently resulting in a fuel saving of £4625 over 5 years at 12,500 miles per year, less than half the saving Tesla suggest.
https://www.nextgreencar.com/tools/fuel-cost-calculator/

I tried the same comparison against an Audi A4 quatro, petrol (35mpg), trying to find lowest mpg possible against one of the cars Tesla themselves see as a competitor and that came out at a saving of £7500 over 5 years at 12,500 miles per year, closer but still £2k less than Tesla's figures.

Not sure which car Tesla use to get their fuel saving calculations from but it must be a thirsty bugger!

 

[nilagin]

Stupidly I didn't really check Tesla's figures
My car can easily average 50+mpg without putting any effort into driving efficiently resulting in a fuel saving of £4625 over 5 years at 12,500 miles per year, less than half the saving Tesla suggest.
https://www.nextgreencar.com/tools/fuel-cost-calculator/

I tried the same comparison against an Audi A4 quatro, petrol (35mpg), trying to find lowest mpg possible against one of the cars Tesla themselves see as a competitor and that came out at a saving of £7500 over 5 years at 12,500 miles per year, closer but still £2k less than Tesla's figures.

Not sure which car Tesla use to get their fuel saving calculations from but it must be a thirsty bugger!

I wonder if the Tesla figures are based on a US gallon which is smaller than ours. A US gallon is only 3.785 litres compared to 4.54 litres in our imperial gallon.

 

[MatBin]

I wonder if the Tesla figures are based on a US gallon which is smaller than ours. A US gallon is only 3.785 litres compared to 4.54 litres in our imperial gallon.

But then shouldn't they use US prices, which are a lot less than our overtaxed fuel prices?

 

[wyx087]

You do like to keep mentioning about Ford not having invested into the charging network
Why is that? Is it so that I have to point out that until it started it's own network, neither had Tesla.

You said regenerative braking was like changing down 2-3 gears, I questioned the severity. We were told it wasn't that severe and you even liked the post, that would signify you agreed with this new information, now you are saying it is more forceful. You really need to get a grip and make your mind up.

I am not wriggling out of anything about the Tesla price. Tesla were found to be putting misrepresentative prices next to pictures of the cars. The real prices were to be found elsewhere. You even said yourself in one post, that you found the real pricing with a couple of clicks. Then in a more recent post, you said that you found the real price further down the page. The real price is the one that should be in full view next to the car, not one they have made up.

Tesla began install supercharging network when their supercharging capable car came out. Ford Focus EV began supporting CCS DC rapid charging in 2017, in 2017, did Ford invest anything in UK's rapid charging network?

"more pronounced", go look up the meaning of this. Have you ever passed your English tests?

You said they publish after-fuel-saving price "instead of" purchase price. Suggesting they did not publish purchase price, which was false. Then, after I quoted the Verge article you provided, you are now trying to wiggle out of what you said. You have zero integrity.

2019 Leaf with 62kw battery is over £40k and will do 225 miles (presumably in summer/mild weather). Kona is ugly, takes over 9hrs to charge (bang goes off peak electricity) and not now available for 2019. E-golf range and size too small, plus performance is hopeless compared to my 2 litre diesel.
Sorry, nothing is available that I want now or satisfies my needs at a decent price.

Leaf 2019 has quoted 239 miles WLTP, so 200 miles in winter no problem. (sorry, I thought it would be more) But it costs £35,895 https://www.nissan.co.uk/vehicles/new-vehicles/leaf/prices-specifications.html
Charging over 9 hours is from empty to full, it still gives you 7 hours of off peak. 7 hours at 7kW gives you 49kWh of electricity, which is just under 200 miles of range. Unless you drive more than that everyday, you can still do all your charging within E7 hours.
Do test drive an EV. Even though its figure suggest less horsepower and torque, the instant response makes EV feel quicker and nippier. I get more enjoyment out of my humble 110bhp Leaf compared to top spec non-performance Octavia 150bph 2.0l diesel with DSG.

 

[DK602]

Some people are so unrealistic regarding the range of EV's!
I'm no EV fan; I'm a true petrol head but looking at the replies on here some people want everything; range, towing, cheap etc.
How many journeys per year are these people making where they travel over 200 miles without taking a break?
Current road conditions would say that's nearly 5 hrs of motorway miles without stopping!
Most households have more than one car so certainly one could be electric?
I don't think people are being particularly honest with their real world vehicle usage - I just use cars for fun but after looking into the Tesla I feel this would be great as a general purpose transport - it is designed to compete against a BMW M3 that has mpg figures that at best are in their low 20's.
No servicing costs as well
It's all very well comparing a rattling diesel hack with a Tesla and stating it doesn't offer the fuel savings Tesla state but your Audi diesel Eurobox offers no where near the performance of the Tesla.

 

[nilagin]

But then shouldn't they use US prices, which are a lot less than our overtaxed fuel prices?

They should. But it wouldn't be representative of costs for other countries. Far be it from me to suggest they forgot to account for the difference in gallons and help load the figures in their favour.

 

[nilagin]

Tesla began install supercharging network when their supercharging capable car came out. Ford Focus EV began supporting CCS DC rapid charging in 2017, in 2017, did Ford invest anything in UK's rapid charging network?

"more pronounced", go look up the meaning of this. Have you ever passed your English tests?

You said they publish after-fuel-saving price "instead of" purchase price. Suggesting they did not publish purchase price, which was false. Then, after I quoted the Verge article you provided, you are now trying to wiggle out of what you said. You have zero integrity.

Prior to supercharging Tesla relied on the public charger network already in place. Did they invest in that. The Focus Electric may have got rapid charging capability in 2017, but it was also withdrawn from sale in the UK in 2017. So why would they invest in a rapid charge network that their vehicles weren't going to be using yet? As you well know they have already invested in a charging network across Europe with several other car manufacturers. Why haven't you questioned why the other companies haven't previously invested in a network.

More pronounced means more noticeable. The only way the braking force can be more noticeable is if the braking force is more than something else. In this case, according to you, more than dropping 2 or 3 gears.

I didn't say they never published the real price. I said they were reprimanded for publishing the fake price in the prominent position.

 

[PaulF]

Some people are so unrealistic regarding the range of EV's!
I'm no EV fan; I'm a true petrol head but looking at the replies on here some people want everything; range, towing, cheap etc.
How many journeys per year are these people making where they travel over 200 miles without taking a break?
Current road conditions would say that's nearly 5 hrs of motorway miles without stopping!
Most households have more than one car so certainly one could be electric?
I don't think people are being particularly honest with their real world vehicle usage - I just use cars for fun but after looking into the Tesla I feel this would be great as a general purpose transport - it is designed to compete against a BMW M3 that has mpg figures that at best are in their low 20's.
No servicing costs as well
It's all very well comparing a rattling diesel hack with a Tesla and stating it doesn't offer the fuel savings Tesla state but your Audi diesel Eurobox offers no where near the performance of the Tesla.

Speaking personally, and honestly, I drive a minimum of 70 miles every work day. That's the minimum though and often cover 200 plus with the occasional 300 mark (done 160 so far today). This is at work and I don't drive for a living, I'm an IT engineer and need to cover several sites and clients. I don't really have this time within the day to go charge an EV nor are there any guaranted charging points where I generally go with work.

I need a large'ish car so the likes of the Leaf is not suitable in size, the model 3 is out due to the boot access. Doesn't leave that many options that are anywhere near the price range of my current German diesel touring.

My wife on tge other hand is a prime candidate for EV, although she may do too few miles to make even the cheaper EV's workable financially. Plus, if she doesn't like the way it looks that's as far as it gets.

 

[nilagin]

Speaking personally, and honestly, I drive a minimum of 70 miles every work day. That's the minimum though and often cover 200 plus with the occasional 300 mark (done 160 so far today). This is at work and I don't drive for a living, I'm an IT engineer and need to cover several sites and clients. I don't really have this time within the day to go charge an EV nor are there any guaranted charging points where I generally go with work.

I need a large'ish car so the likes of the Leaf is not suitable in size, the model 3 is out due to the boot access. Doesn't leave that many options that are anywhere near the price range of my current German diesel touring.

A hybrid would probably suit you better than a full on EV.

 

[PaulF]

@nilagin maybe, our company now offer a Toyota estate hybrid as a company car option. I prefer to have the car allowance though especially as I have a work fuel card so fuel costs me nothing, have had tax rebates in the past due to amount of business miles

 

[broc]

VED for any vehicle with a list price over £40,000 attracts a 5 year VED additional charge of £350 PA. This effectively halves the Govt grant on a £40k Tesla model 3.

As far as regularly driving > 200 miles, this year I have made at least 10 trips towing a 1700kg caravan ........