- Messages
- 15,804
- Name
- Neil
- Edit My Images
- Yes
You didn't ask that at all.
and help to keep the site free for all
Car buyers should have 'long, hard think' about diesel
- Thread starter Mr Bump
- Start date
- Status
- Messages
- 15,804
- Name
- Neil
- Edit My Images
- Yes
Then you would be wrong. I had a 98 Mondeo 2.0 that I bought as a run around. 149k miles on the clock and averaged 40mpg which was above the manufacturer quoted figure. Several years later it had reached 269k miles and still averaged 40mpg.
- Messages
- 15,804
- Name
- Neil
- Edit My Images
- Yes
It has nothing to do with mileage covered. The software upgrade is shortening the range. Software upgrades are supposed to improve the car not make it worse. I could be barking up the wrong tree, but is it any coincidence that a software upgrade that reduces the vehicles range appears to have come about after the Tesla battery fire in China, several months ago.
What possible reason could I have to be envious of Tesla? They take a year or more to ramp up car production to even close to acceptable levels, They have shockingly bad build quality, rated one of the worst, you would thinkvthey could get that right whilst they are initially producing so few cars. Their cars are overpriced and from what I have read they treat a lot of their employees very poorly.
- Messages
- 15,804
- Name
- Neil
- Edit My Images
- Yes
2005 or 2017? If the former, you really need the latter, if the latter then you need a GT11.P.S. I am a big Ford fan and own a Ford GT; I also own a Superformance GT40 recreation with a Roush 427 engine.
S
stupar
Guest
@nilagin - You know exactly the question @DK602 is asking but rather than be honest and say that Ford has a non existent EV line up (a fundamental flaw in todays world) you choose to be a complete idiot and be a childish pedant yet again.
It's sad to say that you are very knowledgeable when it comes to most things to do with cars but when you act like this your nothing short of an imbecile.
Last edited by a moderator:
Nod
Tootles
- Messages
- 45,584
- Name
- Nod (UK)
- Edit My Images
- Yes
P.S. I am a big Ford fan and own a Ford GT; I also own a Superformance GT40 recreation with a Roush 427 engine.
I did wonder about your avatar.
Not sure how "Ford" the Lola GT40 can really be called...
- Messages
- 15,804
- Name
- Neil
- Edit My Images
- Yes
I am fully aware of what he was asking and what he was aiming at. Ask a stupid question, get a stupid answer.
Actually they do have an EV in their line up. it just isn't available in this country. With EV still forming a small part of new car sales, it is hardly a fundamental flaw.
DK602
Suspended / Banned
- Messages
- 550
- Name
- Doug
- Edit My Images
- Yes
Initially you stated I didn't ask the question at all but now you seem to accept I did ask it but it was a stupid question:
Neil - you need to realise you are making a fool of yourself by 'bashing Tesla' just because you are an employee of the Blue Oval.
EV is new technology - anyone in their right mind knows current batteries do not last forever and can only be cycled so many times - to say the range of an electric vehicle has been reduced from 250 miles to 220 miles after a 130000 miles is a con is just showing that they hate a brand for whatever reason - most would expect a drop in mileage over the years when purchasing an EV.
Your Ford Modeo - the diesels were absolutely appalling! They had problems with the injector programming etc; why are you not highlighting that?
I suggest you let go of your Tesla hatred (on here at least) as it isn't showing you in a good light TBH.
DK602
Suspended / Banned
- Messages
- 550
- Name
- Doug
- Edit My Images
- Yes
Yes - it was a mixed history although Ford (America) did re-locate all the suspension after using their supercomputer of the day. Carol Shelby also made it reliable. I do love the period of the Anglo/American Ford racing cars; I'm also lucky enough to have a Kirkham 289 FIA with a Ford 302 drivetrain.
Nod
Tootles
- Messages
- 45,584
- Name
- Nod (UK)
- Edit My Images
- Yes
I'd better not let Mrs Nod see that! She rather likes Cobras (of all sizes). (Well, the cars, NOT the snakes [or mods!])
- Messages
- 363
- Name
- David
- Edit My Images
- Yes
Clean & green? No
see the diesel generator!
Electricity does not magically appear in the environment it has to be generated
see the diesel generator!
Electricity does not magically appear in the environment it has to be generated
Last edited:
- Messages
- 15,804
- Name
- Neil
- Edit My Images
- Yes
So because you feel I am making a fool of myself, you have decided to really make a fool of yourself, how kind.
It has been mentioned many times in this thread, EV isn't new it predates ICE.
Of course the battery will deteriorate, any rechargeable battery will. But you are choosing to ignore the fact that a lot of disgruntled owners have suddenly lost range after an software update. It is nothing to do with how many miles they have done, or how many times the battery has been recharged. Why are you choosing to ignore that?
Why haven't i mentioned Mondeo diesel programming injector problems? Could it be because I never had any problems in the 8 yrs I owned my 98 2.0 Mondeo. Why didn't I encounter any problems? Could it be because it didn't have any diesel injectors to programme. Why didn't it have any diesel injectors? Perhaps it is because it wasn't a diesel engine. Was the programming problem something to do with not being able to fit the diesel injectors in the first place? There is no such thing as a 98 2.0 diesel Mondeo, they were all 1.8. Incidentally, I had 97 and a 99 1.8 TD Mondeos and no problem with injectors. In fact the injectors didn't require programming.
Let's return to our previous discussion about car aerodynamics. You stated that a vacuum is created behind the car and because it drags the car backwards and is a major contribution in the drag of a vehicle. The vacuum in this instance is just a drop in air pressure, the car has created a hole as the air passes over, under and around the car. It does not create a negative air pressure which indeed would try to pull a car backwards. The drag is the air's ability to move over the layer of air that remains static on the vehicle.
Pointing out Tesla's many flaws isn't a hatred, it is just pointing out the flaws. If someone wants to pay out s*** loads of money on a flawed car, that is up to them. There are plenty of threads on here of people wanting to buy a new car and they all ask if anyone knows if a certain model car they are interested in has any pitfalls. In this thread there are members that feel Tesla are the best thing since sliced bread. Sure, they are impressive for their acceleration but it is a lot of money to spend on more or less just one thing when so many flaws let it down.
Last edited:
DK602
Suspended / Banned
- Messages
- 550
- Name
- Doug
- Edit My Images
- Yes
Everything - yes everything in your post is just wrong! Sorry but you really are looking silly. Go and learn about aerodynamics - you are saying some very silly things in your posts!
- Messages
- 15,804
- Name
- Neil
- Edit My Images
- Yes
No everything is indeed correct.
First electric car was in 1832, although they never became practical until late 1870's. First internal combustion engine powered cars went into production in 1886.
Ford most certainly never made a 2.0 diesel Mondeo in 1998. The only diesel engine in 98 Mondeos was an 1.8 and didn't have direct injection and no requirement for the injectors to be programmed.
First 2.0 diesel Mondeo was in 2000 which was the TDDI and that didn't have programmable injectors neither. The 2.0 TDCi came along in 2002 which did have programmable injectors. The only problems with programming that I am aware of were from replacement injectors which are generally refurbished units and may not have been calibrated properly.
I had a 2.2 TDCi basically same engine but different injectors in terms of fuelling capability. The injectors, which also have to be programmed, were still just fine at 101k miles when I traded the car in and almost 60k of that mileage the car had been modified and remarked to 196bhp from its standard 155bhp.
As a car passes through air it only causes a difference in the air pressure at the rear of the car. This difference in air pressure due to the speed of the air passing over the car body and under the car itself and is referred to as vacuum. But it in no way creates negative air pressure. If there was indeed a vacuum (negative air pressure) at the rear of the car, it would pull the smoke trail down into that void but it doesn't. If the drop in air pressure can't pull a weightless smoke trail down into the vacuum, it sure as he'll isn't going to have any kind of pull on a vehicle.
Perhaps you ought to research the laws of physics.
DK602
Suspended / Banned
- Messages
- 550
- Name
- Doug
- Edit My Images
- Yes
There is no point trying to adjust your answers!
Re drag - in your earlier post you said skin friction drag was the biggest cause of drag on a vehicle - now you're changing this to pressure drag which is what I have said all along as being the biggest cause of drag.
So - now you have said this tell me how this pushes the vehicle along as you originally (rather foolishly) stated?
DK602
Suspended / Banned
- Messages
- 550
- Name
- Doug
- Edit My Images
- Yes
- Messages
- 15,804
- Name
- Neil
- Edit My Images
- Yes
I haven't changed anything at all. You said that a vacuum is created at the rear of the car effectively trying to drag (suck) the car backwards. The only way that can happen is if the air pressure is negative causing suction. But no negative air pressure is created behind the car, the air pressure is simply less than that passing under and over a car. The fact it is still called a vacuum is what is confusing you.
Care to try to tell me where I was wrong with the rest of my post?
- Messages
- 15,804
- Name
- Neil
- Edit My Images
- Yes
So what did you buy? Dealers will be shutting soon if you haven't bought one yet.
- Messages
- 3,175
- Edit My Images
- Yes
How many times must I say this.
Today's pure EV capable of long distance driving only really started in 2011 with the original Nissan Leaf + Chademo rapid charging, and 2012 with Tesla Model S + Supercharging. Li-on is the battery technology enabling this. Continue to pretend 1800's car, which lack the two important ingredient, to be the starting point of today's EV is beyond foolish.
But you haven't answered DK's question. Which Ford should he buy that is superior to Tesla?
Ford GT doesn't have 7 seats. Can't hold as much stuff as Model S. It's also rather expensive.
For a car claiming to be a supercar, it's rather slow to 60mph.
Ford GT 0-60 3s: https://www.topspeed.com/cars/ford/2019-ford-gt-heritage-edition-ar182322.html
Tesla Model S P100D 2.3s: https://www.motortrend.com/cars/tesla/model-s/2017/2017-tesla-model-s-p100d-first-test-review
Also, does Ford GT owners get range anxiety with less than 300 miles of range?
https://www.automobilemag.com/news/ford-gt-estimated-300-mile-range/
While Tesla's Model S P100D has 381 miles of range and can recharge anywhere there is electricity.
https://www.topgear.com/car-reviews/tesla/model-s
- Messages
- 3,175
- Edit My Images
- Yes
Petrol and diesels does not magically appear in the petrol station, it has to be mined, transported, refined, distributed.
The national grid is getting greener by the day, an EV mile tomorrow will be greener than an EV mile today, in the same car! Your current ICE car will not magically emit less and less pollution as it ages.
- Messages
- 15,804
- Name
- Neil
- Edit My Images
- Yes
I am sure Tesla will be so pleased you over looked (2nd time this week) the 2008 Roadster. Which had a range of 200 miles.
The 2011 Leaf actually had a marginally shorter range than the 2011 Focus Electric
We all know he was asking which Ford EV he could go into the dealers today and buy and how it would be superior to a Tesla. He knows full well that no Ford Ev's are currently on sale in the UK, he, like yourself was trying to be a smart arse.
Why would Ford GT owners suffer range anxiety? You are the only person with an ICE car that says they don't like getting down to the 50 mile warning. A Ford GT can be refilled at any petrol garage and it will only take 5 minutes to do so. There is one English Ford GT with obviously no concerns over range, he has had his car shipped back to America for a 3 month long road trip.
Last edited:
Tigger.ufo
Lady Penelope
- Messages
- 5,922
- Name
- Heather
- Edit My Images
- Yes
DK602
Suspended / Banned
- Messages
- 550
- Name
- Doug
- Edit My Images
- Yes
I pressume you mean me?
Why are you criticising Tesla so much? So what if the brought out a software upgrade that improved other areas of the vehicle but shortened the range slightly; I'd be happy they were addressing other issues TBH.
No matter which car manufacturer you look at you can 'pull them apart' - i asked before - 'what is your beef with Tesla?'
P.S. Your your fluid dynamics knowledge is woeful but I'm sure people are bored of that.
D
Deleted sulking member 63079
Guest
While this may not be a green example (who knows, without knowing the efficiency of the generator attached), even if energy is generated by burning gas or coal in a power station, it is much more efficient than an ICE. So still greener.
- Messages
- 9,251
- Edit My Images
- No
Surely that depends on the overall polution of the competing systems? The overall pollution of the electric vehicle starts with the construction of the power station and the extraction of the fuel. The overall pollution of the internal combustion vehicle starts with the construction of the fuel refinery and (again) the extraction of the fuel. In both cases the chain then includes the construction of the factories to make the components of each vehicle, the pollution caused by the extraction and refining of the materials and so on up to the delivery of the fuel to the vehicle and its use. It's far more complicated than most people seem to be aware and I'm not sure anyone has ever worked it out for an item as complicated as a car.
- Messages
- 15,804
- Name
- Neil
- Edit My Images
- Yes
Software updates are there to fix a problem or make something work better not worse. As this software is reducing the range on vehicles, the vehicles have basically been misrepresented and mis sold. It's like all the VAG vehicles in the Deiselgate farce, owners have reported loss of performance, increased fuel consumption etc since their cars were " fixed". But no matter the emissions control system now works properly. I know of a woman who not only had those, but a reoccurring EML, that VW could not stop, the dealers said there was nothing they could do and washed their hands of the matter. Not only was the car now costing her more to run, but also a vehicle that could no longer legally pass an MOT because of the EML. She had a vehicle that was worth £6k on trade in that no dealer would touch, she basically had to sell it for spares and got £2k for it. Perhaps she should have sold the car to you for £6k as you would be happy with the problems.
Once again, I don't have a beef with Tesla, but just like yourself, people use Tesla to get a rise out of me and then throw a wobbles when I point out things about Tesla that means they aren't actually as good as made out and for the money charged they should be a darn sight better.
So it's my knowledge of fluid dynamics that is woeful is it.
A vacuum just means something is empty, devoid of matter, a car punches a hole in the air as it passes through it.
It does not create negative air pressure behind the vehicle, causing suction which would try to pull or hold it back.
http://www.gcdataconcepts.com/carairflow.html
Notice the lack of negative air pressure recorded by the barometer fixed to the back of this car.
When are you going to tell me why I am completely wrong about my 98 Mondeo? Where is your proof that it wasn't a 2.0 petrol, but a 2.0 diesel with injector coding problems? Where is your proof that Ford even fitted 2.0 diesel engines to Mondeos in 98 and not the 1.8TD that I had in 97 and 99 Mondeos?
Last edited:
DK602
Suspended / Banned
- Messages
- 550
- Name
- Doug
- Edit My Images
- Yes
See, this sentence alone shows how little you know - "It does not create Negative air pressure behind the vehicle"
Can you tell me a situation when you get negative air pressure?
A pure vacuum contains no air so the air pressure is 0 - not negative as you keep trying to tell people; that situation is impossible; no air molecules = 0 pressure!
In the scientific & Industrial community normal atmospheric pressure is classed as 14.7 psi; if the air pressure is below this it is classed as being 'in vacuum'; like an ICE engine's intake at idle and above 14.7psi is classed as under pressure.
This whole part of the thread started because you said a vehicle can be 'pushed along' by the air passing over it - do you now accept that as ridiculous?
You also said the largest amount of drag was caused by the skin friction of the air molecules passing over the vehicle; this is again wrong - it is caused by the airflow separation at the rear of the vehicle where the air pressure behind the vehicle is lower than atmospheric pressure. (In vacuum)
Taken from here: http://www.up22.com/Aerodynamics.htm
In another post you stated the 'smoke trial' was weightless - how wrong is that statement!
A smoke trail can not be weightless - it contains molecules; and you have answered your earlier question regarding the rear of cars being covered in exhaust waste - it isn't caused by any 'pushing' as you stated earlier; it is caused by the turbulent air at the rear of the vehicle.
Last edited:
DK602
Suspended / Banned
- Messages
- 550
- Name
- Doug
- Edit My Images
- Yes
The biggest problem i see with electric vehicles is not the vehicles themselves but the infrastructure to support them?
I remember the National Grid used to suffer at 5.30pm when everyone got home from work and put the kettle on/started making tea - how will it cope when we are all plugging our cars in for charging?
Likewise the UK has numerous terraced housing/on road parking - how are people going to charge their vehicles?
- Messages
- 15,804
- Name
- Neil
- Edit My Images
- Yes
A vacuum pump produces negative air pressure. The vacuum pumps operating turbo vac controlled wastegates on 1.0 Ecoboost engines produce a negative air pressure of around -90kPa. How do I know? I see the figures 8hrs a day, 5 days a week
The push on the back of the car is minimal and created byspecific turbulence that not all cars can create. When air pressure decreases, the car can pass through the air easier as the initial drag is reduced. Again look at the barometric pressure on various parts of the car on my link. The areas with the most wind resistance, is what causes the drag which is the front of the car, the air pressure drops on the roof etc. because they are flatter and cause less wind resistance. Air like a liquid will find the simplest and shortest route. The reason the air separates from the car body is because the car has already moved through that portion of air, it has punched a hole in it. In a wnd tunnel that hole is caused by the fan blowing at such a force it can carry the smoke trails past the car at a slower air speed from the fans the smoke trail will follow the shape of the car and fall into the void sooner as the change in air pressure is less.
Now are you going to finally answer my questions or are you going to continue to ignore them because I am not completely wrong, but the exact opposite.
DK602
Suspended / Banned
- Messages
- 550
- Name
- Doug
- Edit My Images
- Yes
@nilagin - regarding the faults with the Ford Mondeo - it was used an example to show your 'slating' of Tesla was unfair - most manufacturers do not produce cars that are without fault.
The Mondeo was a good car but the 2.0TDCI suffered with dual mass flywheel problems and others suffered injector problems.
Try google for these problems.
The Mondeo was a good car but the 2.0TDCI suffered with dual mass flywheel problems and others suffered injector problems.
Try google for these problems.
DK602
Suspended / Banned
- Messages
- 550
- Name
- Doug
- Edit My Images
- Yes
Now you are just talking nonsense! Discuss things you know something about! A vacuum pump does not create negative air pressure it is impossible! A vacuum pump removes air so the pressure is less than atmospheric - NOT NEGATIVE!
It really is a shame you don't understand the figures you are looking at 8hrs a day 5 days a week!
and as for turbulence pushing a vehicle - that is pure cloud cuckoo land!
why are you ignoring this statement from aerodynamics:
The reason keeping flow attachment is so important is that the force created by the vacuum far exceeds that created by frontal pressure, and this can be attributed to the Turbulence created by the detachment
Last edited:
D
Deleted sulking member 63079
Guest
Yep, we're the only house on our little road that has a drive.
There are definite issues, range anxiety would be solved by better on the go infrastructure as well as increased battery life. And there won't be a really big change until there's a good second hard market for EV too.
DK602
Suspended / Banned
- Messages
- 550
- Name
- Doug
- Edit My Images
- Yes
Andy,
looking at the Tesla 3 (something I've not done before this thread) I think the cars are pretty much there - its everything else lagging behind - would you agree?
D
Deleted sulking member 63079
Guest
I would, certainly. I think something like the Tesla 3, regardless of who produces it, gives a vehicle that would suit the vast majority of people's usage.
In fact, we just drove to France and back (166 miles this side of the channel, 200 the other). The Tesla 3 could have easily made that trip as there's EV points at the Eurotunnel stations and at every motorway service station we stopped at in France.
We stopped for 20 minutes to take a break have some lunch and stretch our legs anyway.
- Messages
- 15,804
- Name
- Neil
- Edit My Images
- Yes
But you were using it to say my 98 Mondeo had these problems and when I told you there was no 2.0 diesel Mondeo in 98, you told me I was completely wrong.
I don't need to Google anything to do with Mondeos, I have owned 6.
Any car with DMF is likely to run into problems, not just a 2.0 TDCi Mondeo. It is a combination of poor clutch control and can also be attributed to pulling away in 3rd by mistake and the sudden load usually resulting in the car stalling. I know many people who ran 2.0TDCi Mondeos and had neither problems. As I said I had a 2.2 TDCi and never had any injector problems and although I managed to kill the clutch slave cylinder and clutch at 100k miles, the DMF was just fine. The problems weren't as prolific as you make out.
DK602
Suspended / Banned
- Messages
- 550
- Name
- Doug
- Edit My Images
- Yes
Last edited:
- Messages
- 15,804
- Name
- Neil
- Edit My Images
- Yes
I can see you are new to the forum and with the vast number of posts you won't have read them all, so I will fill you in on why it would appear I am criticising Tesla or have a beef with Tesla.
We have a member who is an advocate of EV. I have no problem with that in itself. He bought it 2nd hand, he is able to charge it at home and because of all that it works for him as opposed to running a ICE car, although he does have one of those too. Again all fine, I have no problem with it.
Obviously there are only so many 2nd hand EV available and new ones have to be bought and then traded in or resold for more to appear. It has been pointed out to this particular gentleman that buying a new EV is expensive compared to an equivalent ICE car. He then goes on to tell us that as no fossil fuel needs to be bought they are cheaper to run. Myself and other members have pointed out to him countless times that including the purchase the new car, it takes several years for an EV to reach the break even point and then actually become cheaper to run. Now it isn't s secret on this forum who I work for. Yet when people's backs are against the wall and their argument has gone pear shaped, I get, where is the Ford EV, I can buy, this Ford car has this problem, that Ford car has that problem. Sound familiar?
Now one particular person likes Tesla cars, again I have no problem with that, everyone likes different makes or types of cars. Now this thread is all stems from Deiselgate and governments strive to lower emissions and the move to cleaner vehicles. People contribute different aspects whether it is more diesel scandal, a new EV comes to market etc and for his part, this particular gentleman may post something about Tesla. As it is a forum, posts may or may not get a response, some lead to a discussion, some don't. Now posts have been made about how well the Tesla Model 3 is doing, how it is outselling not only EV cars, but also it's ICE competitors in some markets. Great for Tesla, I have no problem with it. But sales numbers are just the number of cars registered each month or year. I have simply pointed out with the number of pre orders that Tesla recieved for the Model 3 and the fact that it they only started producing cars in June/July 2017 but took until June/July 2018 to start producing cars in any meaningful numbers, there has been a sudden surge in the number of cars being registered. I have also pointed out that with the number of pre orders that Tesla had recieved and the total number of Model 3's that Tesla had produced, they were still in fact working their way through the pre orders. A true indication of how well sales were doing could only be found once those cars had been built and registered and that new orders were being met. Now some people don't like such rational and logical thinking, I get accused of making things up to suit my own agenda and when they start floundering, once again the old chestnuts get rolled out. Where's the Ford EV? Ford are just playing catch up, Ford are being left behind. Why haven't Ford released details and evidence of there future electric vehicles. Ford are just happy to keep imposing their fossil fuelled polluting vehicles on customers, they have no interest in EV.
Then we get the remarks that we should be thankful to Tesla for raising the interest in EV and they are the reason that EV is a growing market. I point out that the growing EV demand is actually down to the impending emissions regulations that will prevent the sale of new cars, powered solely by an ICE, they will have to be fully electric or at least a hybrid capable of travelling a minimum distance under electric power.
If I was slating Tesla, I would have made a point of making a post about the range reduction due to software update, a week ago when it first came to my attention, but I didn't, because I would have just got the same old s*** about Ford. When I finally did mention it, guess what, you proved me right.[/QUOTE]
- Messages
- 15,804
- Name
- Neil
- Edit My Images
- Yes
Giving an old Leaf a new lease of life and longer range.
https://cleantechnica.com/2019/08/10/a-2012-leaf-with-150-miles-of-range/
https://cleantechnica.com/2019/08/10/a-2012-leaf-with-150-miles-of-range/
- Status