Car buyers should have 'long, hard think' about diesel

[Phil V]

No different to not paying tax on your pension contributions.

Don’t mention fiddling your tax affairs to pay minimum NI conts... he really doesnt like it.

Apparently like many of his ilk, any subsidies or tax fiddles he benefits from are OK, but anything he’s not benefitting from and someone else is, is obviously out of order.

 

[neil_g]

Which is why car manufacturers are producing various types of hybrid rather than low mileage Ev's which are likely to become obsolete a lot sooner.

Wouldn't drive one of those either. I can't charge at home or work unfortunately.

I know someone with a phev and unless you can get it charged the economy is dire. You can run it in full eco and regen modes sure but by that point it won't pull the skin off rice pudding.

 

[n0chex]

Mine recharges the Stop/Start battery when I brake or coast so surely I'm contributing towards the green sector of the market?

 

[dod]

interesting article on the whole life emissions of EV's.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-10-16/the-dirt-on-clean-electric-cars

 

[Byker28i]

I love my 380BHP & 700ftlbs torque tractor. Would I swap it for Electric/Hybrid certainly not.

If it's torque you want then electric has a lot to offer... provided you don't want to go far with the current battery capacity

 

[dod]

If it's torque you want then electric has a lot to offer... provided you don't want to go far with the current battery capacity

I had a test drive in one of the Tesla P100, it was awesome. Unbelievable acceleration with no noise.

 

[Byker28i]

interesting article on the whole life emissions of EV's.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-10-16/the-dirt-on-clean-electric-cars

No surprise there. EV evangelists ignore the environmental impact of production, transportation and where the power comes from to charge them, although as we've heard, some offset that by adding their own personal solar panels, which also further offsets the cost as an EV car usually doubles the household electricity consumption. Thats still a further £6k+ to budget for if you look to go this way

Edit: So we're back to the battery being the limiting factor. Smaller, lighter, hold more charge for longer range, charge quicker - especially when away from home, and somewhere/someway to charge them for those with terraced houses and no driveway. Smaller, removeable batteries for charging in house might work for the shorter town journies?

Fix all that

 

[Byker28i]

I had a test drive in one of the Tesla P100, it was awesome. Unbelievable acceleration with no noise.

I took a long hard look last year at my personal work journeys, was trying to combine 3 vehicles (motorbike, TVR and MX-5) into one electric. The bike and MX-5 were used for commuting/work (sadly just MX-5 now) and the TVR for fun. The Tesla S met all the requirements for fun, performance, economy (I could charge for free at a couple of clients and possibly at the office).
I just couldn't make the figures work for a second hand one, at over £50k. They are actually quite a big car as well.

The performance though was fun

 

[Byker28i]

UK grant fo EV now reduced
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/reformed-plug-in-car-grant-extended-into-next-decade

 

[stryvya]

Just saying, LOVE my Diesel and the next one will be even cheaper to buy.

 

[wyx087]

interesting article on the whole life emissions of EV's.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-10-16/the-dirt-on-clean-electric-cars

Just switch to 100% renewable electricity provider. Based on my use, Tonik 100% renewable electricity actually came out cheapest on comparison websites.

The grid is like a bucket of water, you take some water from the bucket and pay renewable generation to replenish it. So no need to budget in additional solar panels, in fact, unless you have a MASSIVE south facing roof, you are unlikely to be able to charge a 7kW car using a 3kW solar installation.

 

[gman]

Just saying, LOVE my Diesel and the next one will be even cheaper to buy.

You'll also suffer poorer trade in value, but if you are running your current car into the ground then I guess you've won a watch.

 

[Byker28i]

Just switch to 100% renewable electricity provider. Based on my use, Tonik 100% renewable electricity actually came out cheapest on comparison websites.

The grid is like a bucket of water, you take some water from the bucket and pay renewable generation to replenish it. So no need to budget in additional solar panels, in fact, unless you have a MASSIVE south facing roof, you are unlikely to be able to charge a 7kW car using a 3kW solar installation.

The adding solar panels was for the green credentials, or for offsetting the doubling of the average household consumption. However, for the future, the 4Kw max system, a battery storage facility and local mileage and you could charge your car for free.

 

[wyx087]

The adding solar panels was for the green credentials, or for offsetting the doubling of the average household consumption. However, for the future, the 4Kw max system, a battery storage facility and local mileage and you could charge your car for free.

Home battery..... add another £3k on top of your solar install budget

I'm just saying, for green credentials, solar isn't the only option. Simple switch of suppliers takes 20min online, and you are no longer paying coal or gas to replenish electricity you use. It's no brainer!


For example, my supplier is Tonik: https://www.tonikenergy.com/about/our-energy/

100% renewable electricity
All of our tariffs include 100% renewable electricity which is guaranteed and backed with Renewable Energy Guarantee of Origin (REGO) certificates - evidence that this electricity has been produced from a carbon neutral, renewable source. The REGOs provide a record of each unit of electricity our members have used, which we have replaced by buying (and pumping back into the grid) a unit generated from renewable sources.
In the last year our renewable electricity sources were 57% from solar and 43% anaerobic digestion.

So my EV miles over the last year is zero emissions. Combined with the fact my car is 4 years old, according to that German graph published by Bloomberg: Over the lifetime of my vehicle so far, (4 years young) I've emitted less than driving even most efficient ICE car.

If we do keep the Leaf until it is 10 years old, its per-mile lifetime emission will be so low, it's unimaginable for any ICE powered car.

 

[Gaz J]

Just switch to 100% renewable electricity provider. Based on my use, Tonik 100% renewable electricity actually came out cheapest on comparison websites.

The grid is like a bucket of water, you take some water from the bucket and pay renewable generation to replenish it. So no need to budget in additional solar panels, in fact, unless you have a MASSIVE south facing roof, you are unlikely to be able to charge a 7kW car using a 3kW solar installation.

So what happens if they have more demand from customers than renewables are putting into the grid as they seem not to be using wind power. Or at least not last year. Unlikely scenario but theoretically possible.

 

[wyx087]

So what happens if they have more demand from customers than renewables are putting into the grid as they seem not to be using wind power. Or at least not last year. Unlikely scenario but theoretically possible.

Simple. More money is channelled into renewable sources. More renewable power sources are built. More jobs created, less greenhouse emissions. win-win!

Of course, if there's a really sudden surge, the price of certified renewable energy will go up temporarily. But this won't be reflected in your fixed household bills.

 

[ancient_mariner]

You'll also suffer poorer trade in value, but if you are running your current car into the ground then I guess you've won a watch.

If the depreciation is already mostly done when you buy a used one then there's little to lose.

 

[Cobra]

So what happens if they have more demand from customers than renewables are putting into the grid as they seem not to be using wind power.

Well according to Scottish power who are also on the brink of swapping they will just buy from elsewhere

 

[dod]

Just switch to 100% renewable electricity provider. Based on my use, Tonik 100% renewable electricity actually came out cheapest on comparison websites.

The grid is like a bucket of water, you take some water from the bucket and pay renewable generation to replenish it. So no need to budget in additional solar panels, in fact, unless you have a MASSIVE south facing roof, you are unlikely to be able to charge a 7kW car using a 3kW solar installation.

They're speaking about whole life emissions including manufacture, not just ongoing running cost. Therefore, depending on where it's made, particularly the battery, it might take years to break even compared with a car and battery manufactured by less CO2 intensive generation. They're also speaking about an "average" car, not individual examples. So you're clean motor is potentially killing the planet

I'm generally in favour of electric but they're not, at this stage, necessarily the cleaner overall option. A bit like @Byker28i I couldn't make the figures work before and right now I'm living in a flat and couldn't get a connection easily anyway.

If you want some info on UK generation the info in the attached link is pretty interesting

http://electricinsights.co.uk/#/dashboard?period=1-year&start=2017-10-16&&_k=dcy9b3

 

[Nod]

Our reason for going down the EV route was to massively reduce our in town emissions. The A Class it replaced was horrendously thirsty for the use it got (under 30MPG from a 1500 auto doing several 3-4 mile round trips per day) and was getting long in the tooth. While there's no doubting that EVs still produce emissions somewhere (either during manufacture or power generation for their "fuel"), getting it out of town centres can only be a good thing.
Keeping the big Diesel, little convertible and bikes for longer journeys and more fun! (Mind you, the Leaf is remarkably nippy when out of Eco mode.)

 

[Cobra]

ight now I'm living in a flat and couldn't get a connection easily anyway.

And that is the main issue that I have re-iterated time and time again,
Even now, looking out of my window, its an average estate, the drives hold 1 decent car 2 small cars at a push most households have 3 or 4 cars,
There are 6 cars parked in the road, and most people won't be home for another hour, when it will fill up with cars.
People have lived here for years, raised a family and now their off spring have cars.

Around the corner, there is a small laid back "green close" with no vehicle
access there is always at least 18 cars parked on the road. the nearest house to road is about 50 yards.
the furthest at least 100 yards.

The recent ( circa 10 years old) estates front doors open onto a narrow pathway, the parking bays are the other side of the road.
Or a set back parking area, away from the houses.
1 but If *you" are really lucky 2 bays per house hold.

It hasn't been thought through ...

 

[dod]

While there's no doubting that EVs still produce emissions somewhere (either during manufacture or power generation for their "fuel"), getting it out of town centres can only be a good thing.
K)

That's a good point. Suppose it comes down to the impact of localised emissions against the wider question of global emissions.

 

[Nod]

It would be interesting to see a true comparison between the emissions from personal transport (cars and bikes) against commercial (trucks etc.) and industrial as well as maritime and air transportation. Personal transport is an easy target as far as taxation and blame goes!

 

[srichards]

Not having home charging shouldn't stop EV ownership in the future. Work places need to install charging. Railway stations, supermarket rapids, ultra fast rapids elsewhere. Once you can get 100kw in about 15-20 minutes then home parking is totally irrelevant. That's a quick trip to the supermarket.

All the cars that are parked somewhere for hours each day can be charged up.

 

[Byker28i]

Our reason for going down the EV route was to massively reduce our in town emissions. The A Class it replaced was horrendously thirsty for the use it got (under 30MPG from a 1500 auto doing several 3-4 mile round trips per day) and was getting long in the tooth. While there's no doubting that EVs still produce emissions somewhere (either during manufacture or power generation for their "fuel"), getting it out of town centres can only be a good thing.
Keeping the big Diesel, little convertible and bikes for longer journeys and more fun! (Mind you, the Leaf is remarkably nippy when out of Eco mode.)

and thats exactly where an EV is perfectly placed at the moment.

 

[Cobra]

Personal transport is an easy target as far as taxation and blame goes!

Every time!

Take landfill sites ( because I *know* them.)
There are 40 tonne packers / loading shovels ( x 6) diving around 7-8 hours a day, there are earth movers ( at least 6) driving around 7-8-9-10 hours a day.
There are small crawlers ( x2 ) driving around 7-8 hours a day.
There are diesel generated lights ( up to a dozen) on half the working day, in the winter.

That doesn't include the 200 or so trucks that are delivering the waste every day.
And this is just one site that I go to.

 

[Byker28i]

Not having home charging shouldn't stop EV ownership in the future. Work places need to install charging. Railway stations, supermarket rapids, ultra fast rapids elsewhere. Once you can get 100kw in about 15-20 minutes then home parking is totally irrelevant. That's a quick trip to the supermarket.

All the cars that are parked somewhere for hours each day can be charged up.

But then thats got to be planned in with the infrastructure. You can't just suddenly load a substation with an additional 100 - 200 cars all charging at 100Kw?

 

[Nod]

and thats exactly where an EV is perfectly placed at the moment.

Yup!

Even if our battery's capacity drops to a 10 mile range, it'll still be enough for our town needs, even if we need to use the heater and drop to even fewer miles of range. Much as we'd like to walk the relatively short distance, Mrs Nod usually needs to take stuff one or both ways and sometimes does the round trip 3 or 4 times per day.


ETA. Yes, we/she could use public transport but it's unreliable (especially in the early part of the day - 06:30 is Mrs Nod's leave-the-house time) and expensive - £2.80 single.

 

[dod]

But then thats got to be planned in with the infrastructure. You can't just suddenly load a substation with an additional 100 - 200 cars all charging at 100Kw?

Quite apart from anything else, installing 100 charging stations in a car park is a significant undertaking, if it's even possible. We couldn't do it at our work.

 

[Nod]

But then thats got to be planned in with the infrastructure. You can't just suddenly load a substation with an additional 100 - 200 cars all charging at 100Kw?

Not sure how much good rapid charging does EV batteries.

As EV use increases, the infrastructure will improve

 

[Byker28i]

Quite apart from anything else, installing 100 charging stations in a car park is a significant undertaking, if it's even possible. We couldn't do it at our work.

My future son in law has started a job where the carpark wont fit all the cars, so they get a space allocated 1 or 2 days a week. Then there's the need to bring that amount of power into the area in the first place.

Out of town shopping areas have this planned in as part of the planning consent in the future? Ok for the once a week you go shopping, but it'll be busy on a saturday and what if you dont get a charger.

 

[Byker28i]

Not sure how much good rapid charging does EV batteries.

As EV use increases, the infrastructure will improve

Battery technology needs to improve. They need to be lighter, have more range, be able to take a quick charge.
As for infrastructure - chicken and egg? If EV takeup increases then infrastucture will because the demand will be there, but at the moment thats another barrier to ownership for a significant market.

It's a difficult move forward. You can see the advantages but for the majority EV isn't practical, hybrid is the more likely

 

[neil_g]

Simple. More money is channelled into renewable sources. More renewable power sources are built. More jobs created, less greenhouse emissions. win-win!

Of course, if there's a really sudden surge, the price of certified renewable energy will go up temporarily. But this won't be reflected in your fixed household bills.

and more nuclear waste we have to hide underground for centuries. after all, out of site out of mind

if you think electricity prices wont increase with all the new infrastructure costs required and the extra loads then "lol"

Battery technology needs to improve. They need to be lighter, have more range, be able to take a quick charge.

and less environmentally damaging to make.

 

[nilagin]

Not having home charging shouldn't stop EV ownership in the future. Work places need to install charging. Railway stations, supermarket rapids, ultra fast rapids elsewhere. Once you can get 100kw in about 15-20 minutes then home parking is totally irrelevant. That's a quick trip to the supermarket.

All the cars that are parked somewhere for hours each day can be charged up.

Who is going to pay for the installation of charging points in the car parks? Where I work there is parking for several thousand cars. I can't see my employer paying out for that and they will be losing money whilst the workforce are nipping out to unplug their car or plug it in.

 

[neil_g]

Who is going to pay for the installation of charging points in the car parks? Where I work there is parking for several thousand cars. I can't see my employer paying out for that and they will be losing money whilst the workforce are nipping out to unplug their car or plug it in.

And the inevitable office politics of having to write policies on acceptable use etc

 

[gman]

If the depreciation is already mostly done when you buy a used one then there's little to lose.

I guess it all depends on the market value of the car being sold and the one bring purchased to know how much the negative diesel attitude would impact each.

Say the impact was a 25% hit, then yes a newer and more expensive car will have a larger reduction but then you may also have to factor in things like the car being traded in not conforming to EURO6, so penalties for entering cities etc, this could potentially reduce its value and desirability a lot more than a newer conforming diesel.

I guess you can't have it all one way, both sides will be effected to some extent, depends on the specifics.

 

[ancient_mariner]

I guess it all depends on the market value of the car being sold and the one bring purchased to know how much the negative diesel attitude would impact each.

Say the impact was a 25% hit, then yes a newer and more expensive car will have a larger reduction but then you may also have to factor in things like the car being traded in not conforming to EURO6, so penalties for entering cities etc, this could potentially reduce its value and desirability a lot more than a newer conforming diesel.

I guess you can't have it all one way, both sides will be effected to some extent, depends on the specifics.

Buying a car was always a loss-making game: buy cheap & sell cheap with a loss, buy expensive & get a higher used value but probably lose more money overall.

 

[Byker28i]

and more nuclear waste we have to hide underground for centuries. after all, out of site out of mind
if you think electricity prices wont increase with all the new infrastructure costs required and the extra loads then "lol"

It's a much cleaner fuel for instant power response than fossil fuels, coal, gas etc and fills the gap that renewables cant fill, until we work on local battery storage? similar to the old gasometers to buffer the local load.
We're also the leaders in dealing with spent nuclear fuel, one third of which globally is reprocessed and there's ongoing work for further extraction of elements from these, and putting the remaining energy to work whilst being stored.

...about new battery tech
and less environmentally damaging to make.

Or new technology to recycle those elements, use different construction etc. There's a lot of tech going into this at the moment.

 

[Byker28i]

Buying a car was always a loss-making game: buy cheap & sell cheap with a loss, buy expensive & get a higher used value but probably lose more money overall.

The average is you lose 50% over the first 3 years on a new car? Some will pay that for the 'new factor', some for the reliability (although that can't be guaranteed these days), others for the ease of purchase, lease schemes etc.
EV cars, whilst having fewer 'engine' parts bring in a new issue with second hand batteries - are they lease, the cost to replace. This may change with newer generation batteries
I mean, you can buy Prius's now for £1000-2000 with 150K-200K miles on the clock. I think the batteries were originally lifed for 200K miles. This was another thought as a cheap replacement commuter, but again, for best mpg you're stuck doing 65-70mph. For peace of mind I asked the local toyota dealer how much to change an early prius battery and he said he'd never done one, but around £5k.

 

[wyx087]

Not sure how much good rapid charging does EV batteries.

As EV use increases, the infrastructure will improve

Occasional Rapid is actually good for the battery.

The Leaf has been out for 7 years, the infrastructure has only just improved very recently. Yet at each location there's usually only 1 rapid, unlike Tesla supercharger stations. 1 rapid at each location cannot be relied upon when more EV's are on the road. So I don't have much hope for the rapid charging infrastructure to be reliable for long journeys in the foreseeable future. Only a Tesla can do long distance driving IMO.

if you think electricity prices wont increase with all the new infrastructure costs required and the extra loads then "lol"

Smart charging won't require much infrastructure upgrade to accommodate a large increased in EV usage. In fact, the next step of smart charging: vehicle-2-grid will put even less load on existing infrastructure.

As mentioned above, the answer is in the battery.