Car buyers should have 'long, hard think' about diesel

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PaulF said:
Sorry, no assumption on my part, just basic comprehension and a little maths.

You first stated that Zoe batteries were being re purposed in PowerVault home battery then followed that up with your second statement 'So that's 10 years in'

I simply pointed out that as the Zoe was first launched in 2013, it's not possible for the 're purposed' battery to have been in a EV Zoe for 10 years, it would be 5 years at maximum because the Zoe has only been out for 5 years, it really is that simple maths coming into play.

So, either your first statement is incorrect, the one about the Zoe batteries, and you didn't think to check or you second statement is incorrect.

I'd go with the first statement is incorrect and the second statement is your opinion/assumption as you cannot know how long a re purposed battery will last, nor how long the particular battery was in a EV in the first place.

In your last reply, it seems your source could have been the extremely biased Fully Charged youtube channel. I have watched a few of their videos hoping to get an insight into EV etc from a knowledgeable source but the ones I saw were so biased and when I check a few of their 'facts' I found them to be b*****ks so dismiss anything from them without checking another source.
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No, first statement is correct. If you click to Powervault website it will tell you they are using Zoe batteries. Second statement is based on information gathered up to now, logically extrapolated.

Show me evidence from credible sources to say EV battery WON'T last 10 years as vehicle traction battery. I've stated you get 8 years battery warranty from most manufacturers (Tesla, BMW and Nissan, Renault), and stated the car batteries will simply degrade in capacity, so lasting 2 more years is a piece of cake for any batteries. (You wouldn't throw away a 4 year old car because warranty ran out at 3 years would you?) I stated real world examples that 5 year old Leaf average 85% degradation. I've previously stated my 4 year old Leaf has 88% degradation. Where is your counter argument sources? You have asserted my statement that EV battery lasting 10 years cannot be true, where are your sources?

Again, another assumption by you that my source is Fully charged youtube channel. Is it another case of you making assumptions from your own (questionable) sources and never bother absorbing new information? (for example)



Fully Charged youtube channel do have a very biased vibe, but it doesn't take away their credibility. Their news sections do a good job of covering EV news (though mostly late repeat of what's already been covered elsewhere) Their feature episodes do a good job of covering latest innovations. Only fault is their attitude and opinions displayed during some (probably unscripted) outbursts, as well as very biased interview questions. But I'd take them over any traditional car based publication, simply because they are approaching EV and renewable energy with open mind.
 
wuyanxu said:
No, first statement is correct. If you click to Powervault website it will tell you they are using Zoe batteries. Second statement is based on information gathered up to now, logically extrapolated.

Show me evidence from credible sources to say EV battery WON'T last 10 years as vehicle traction battery. I've stated you get 8 years battery warranty from most manufacturers (Tesla, BMW and Nissan, Renault), and stated the car batteries will simply degrade in capacity, so lasting 2 more years is a piece of cake for any batteries. (You wouldn't throw away a 4 year old car because warranty ran out at 3 years would you?) I stated real world examples that 5 year old Leaf average 85% degradation. I've previously stated my 4 year old Leaf has 88% degradation. Where is your counter argument sources? You have asserted my statement that EV battery lasting 10 years cannot be true, where are your sources?

Again, another assumption by you that my source is Fully charged youtube channel. Is it another case of you making assumptions from your own (questionable) sources and never bother absorbing new information? (for example)



Fully Charged youtube channel do have a very biased vibe, but it doesn't take away their credibility. Their news sections do a good job of covering EV news (though mostly late repeat of what's already been covered elsewhere) Their feature episodes do a good job of covering latest innovations. Only fault is their attitude and opinions displayed during some (probably unscripted) outbursts, as well as very biased interview questions. But I'd take them over any traditional car based publication, simply because they are approaching EV and renewable energy with open mind.
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OK, I never said an EV battery won't last 10 years.
What I said was the Zoe EV batteries being used in the powervault can only be a maximum of 5 years old as that is the maximum age of the Zoe considering it was launched in 2013. I can't think of a more simple way to explain that.

Ergo, your statement referring to 10 years in a EV (Zoe) then re purposed in a powervault is incorrect as the batteries being used in the powervault can only be 5 years old at most.

'Second statement is based on information gathered up to now, logically extrapolated.'

It would appear you have misunderstood the information gathered and then made a leap of faith.

I'm still struggling to understand where all the used Zoe batteries are coming from, if they were being removed from Zoe's in numbers required to build a new product I'm sure there would have been a bit of an uproar.


'Again, another assumption by you that my source is Fully charged'
Look up the meaning of the word 'could' as apposed to 'is' as could is the word I used.
Not sure what the example link refers to, sorry, it just goes to this thread.

The Fully Charged videos I saw had not just biased opinion, which would be fine by the way, but plain wrong information which is not fine.
One was about a road trip across Europe the other was about new type of boiler. Both had incorrect figures to back up their views. Hence I would check any facts they report.

I'm quite open to EV's in principle for those they suit, I'm trying to get my wife to consider one for her next car as she could get away with one now her job location has changed. The 'look' of the car is quite high on her priority list though and none have tickled her fancy so far, she likes quirky and individual cars :)
 
The Leaf (older style) is fairly quirky looking! Personally, I'd rather sit in something ugly and look out at pretty cars than sit in something beautiful looking at the fuglies.
 
wuyanxu said:
If battery degrade to 50% at 15 years old doesn't mean it's end of life as long as other parts of the car still works. It's still valuable to us as a local runabout, its ability to do its job wouldn't have changed.
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I'm sorry but you do talk some garbage at times maybe just to score a point?
if your EV is purchased with a 200 mile capacity from new and it drops to 100 miles in 15 years it NOT still doing its job!
if you owed an ice that was only running at 50% of its original fuel consumption after 15 yrs it is still performing as it was intended and would probably just need a good service!
 
nilagin said:
A study in Germany estimates it will take 10yrs for an EV to break even with a modern diesel car in terms of carbon emissions in the manufacture of EV batteries.
https://wonderfulengineering.com/ne...are-much-cleaner-than-most-electric-vehicles/
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The study does assume that some (much?) of the electricity used to power the EV is produced from fossil fuel, in which case the outcome is not surprising. My EV-evangelistic boss/colleague is very keen that his EV doesn't produce pollution at the place of use (i.e. it's someone else's problem) and that he buys electricity from a renewable source supplier so isn't using fossil fuels. :coat:
 
PaulF said:
OK, I never said an EV battery won't last 10 years.
What I said was the Zoe EV batteries being used in the powervault can only be a maximum of 5 years old as that is the maximum age of the Zoe considering it was launched in 2013. I can't think of a more simple way to explain that.

Ergo, your statement referring to 10 years in a EV (Zoe) then re purposed in a powervault is incorrect as the batteries being used in the powervault can only be 5 years old at most.

'Second statement is based on information gathered up to now, logically extrapolated.'

It would appear you have misunderstood the information gathered and then made a leap of faith.
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It would appear you have misunderstood my earlier statement. Or may be I have worded it badly. There are no direct relationship between Powervault batteries and the second statement in a different paragraph on 10 years battery use in EV. You have made the connection. The "so" is to show that the battery can be used EV followed by being recycled by a company similar to Powervault. Hence my insistence on batteries lasting 10+ years in comparison to your assertion that battery last maximum of 5 years.

If I have misunderstood the meaning of manufacturer's 8 years battery warranty period and made a leap of faith to say EV battery will last 10 years. Then I am unsure what you make of all the 3 years and older cars on the road without warranty.

AHILL said:
I'm sorry but you do talk some garbage at times maybe just to score a point?
if your EV is purchased with a 200 mile capacity from new and it drops to 100 miles in 15 years it NOT still doing its job!
if you owed an ice that was only running at 50% of its original fuel consumption after 15 yrs it is still performing as it was intended and would probably just need a good service!
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I'm sorry, but you are contradicting yourself. May be just to score a point?

Both are cars, both can only do 50% of its advertised original range. What's different?

How do you know a good service will restore the ICE fuel consumption? How much work is involved with this? (strip down of while engine to remove carbon deposits?) How much will this good service cost at a reputable garage? Add this cost to 15 years of oil changes and new clutch, new emission equipments, is it in multiple thousands similar to EV battery replacement?

As I have said, for local journeys the reduced range won't matter. For example, my wife drove a grand total of 5 miles yesterday. My EV sat at home not needing any charge. If it does need plug in due to reduced range, it's no big deal. Remember, you can recharge at home, so as long as the range still allows you to get back home (eg. local use) the EV in question is still a perfectly good local car doing its job.

Of course, I'm under no illusion that my Leaf with its 90 miles of brand new range can drive long distances. So 90 miles reduced to 40 miles doesn't make any difference to its ability to carry people around locally. Just plug in every night or even after every trip. This may not be feasible for flat dwellers, as repeated many times, EV isn't for everyone right now. But you do need to have a long and hard think about defaulting to diesels ;)





Today, my Skoda dirty diesel DSG is in for gearbox oil and filter change at £180 every 40k. I'm putting the miles on a courtesy Polo SE 1.0l turbo petrol manual (not even centre armrest!). Experiencing gear change again. :confused: In comparison to the Nissan Micra diesel manual courtesy car I had about 1 year ago, this petrol is not much better in power delivery. The power just isn't there unless I'm riving it beyond 2500rpm, at which point the engine makes itself heard, the sound is rougher than my 2.0l diesel. Then there's the constant gear change, want to go faster? change down. Want to slow down with engine braking? change down. Want to stop the engine screaming? change up. There's no enjoyment in doing this chore that can be automated, or even not bother with gearbox all together.

One good thing with the 1.0l though is its fuel consumption. My usual commute (25m motorway, 5m local) gives me ~55mpg in my diesel this time of year. The tiny petrol managed with 51mpg! :clap: People do need to think long and hard before getting another diesel. Best do it before Gasoline Particulate Filters are introduced :whistle:
 
wuyanxu said:
How do you know a good service will restore the ICE fuel consumption? How much work is involved with this? (strip down of while engine to remove carbon deposits?) How much will this good service cost at a reputable garage? Add this cost to 15 years of oil changes and new clutch, new emission equipments, is it in multiple thousands similar to EV battery replacement?

As I have said, for local journeys the reduced range won't matter. For example, my wife drove a grand total of 5 miles yesterday. My EV sat at home not needing any charge. If it does need plug in due to reduced range, it's no big deal. Remember, you can recharge at home, so as long as the range still allows you to get back home (eg. local use) the EV in question is still a perfectly good local car doing its job.

Of course, I'm under no illusion that my Leaf with its 90 miles of brand new range can drive long distances. So 90 miles reduced to 40 miles doesn't make any difference to its ability to carry people around locally. Just plug in every night or even after every trip. This may not be feasible for flat dwellers, as repeated many times, EV isn't for everyone right now. But you do need to have a long and hard think about defaulting to diesels ;)





Today, my Skoda dirty diesel DSG is in for gearbox oil and filter change at £180 every 40k. I'm putting the miles on a courtesy Polo SE 1.0l turbo petrol manual (not even centre armrest!). Experiencing gear change again. :confused: In comparison to the Nissan Micra diesel manual courtesy car I had about 1 year ago, this petrol is not much better in power delivery. The power just isn't there unless I'm riving it beyond 2500rpm, at which point the engine makes itself heard, the sound is rougher than my 2.0l diesel. Then there's the constant gear change, want to go faster? change down. Want to slow down with engine braking? change down. Want to stop the engine screaming? change up. There's no enjoyment in doing this chore that can be automated, or even not bother with gearbox all together.

One good thing with the 1.0l though is its fuel consumption. My usual commute (25m motorway, 5m local) gives me ~55mpg in my diesel this time of year. The tiny petrol managed with 51mpg! :clap: People do need to think long and hard before getting another diesel. Best do it before Gasoline Particulate Filters are introduced :whistle:
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I had a 2.0 petrol Mondeo that was still doing 40mpg average on a tank of fuel at 12yrs old and 269k miles. It was still on it's original clutch too. Other than the first 3 years servicing during the warranty period, servicing, at Ford main dealership, cost £99 a year and included a years AA breakdown cover, I believe the cost of that servicing is now around £140.
For an ice to be doing half it's original mpg, it won't have been serviced in a long, long time. A good service, which doesn't require the engine being stripped down, shouldn't cost anymore than £250, mpg will be restored and can be maintained with a regular yearly service.

GPF's have already been introduced. I don't see them being a problem. The engines we are developing at work have them and once the exhaust back pressure is adjusted to compensate everything is fine. I have driven a car with the engine and GPF fitted and it doesn't pose a problem.
 
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wuyanxu said:
It would appear you have misunderstood my earlier statement. Or may be I have worded it badly. There are no direct relationship between Powervault batteries and the second statement in a different paragraph on 10 years battery use in EV. You have made the connection. The "so" is to show that the battery can be used EV followed by being recycled by a company similar to Powervault. Hence my insistence on batteries lasting 10+ years in comparison to your assertion that battery last maximum of 5 years.

If I have misunderstood the meaning of manufacturer's 8 years battery warranty period and made a leap of faith to say EV battery will last 10 years. Then I am unsure what you make of all the 3 years and older cars on the road without warranty.
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For the last time, I never said or asserted that a EV battery would only last 5 years, I said the ex Zoe batteries being reused in the Powervault are no more than 5 years old because, you know, the Zoe was only launched 5 years ago so therefore it is impossible for those particular batteries being used for that particular purpose to be older than 5 years.

It really is that simple, no reading between the lines etc required.
 
PaulF said:
It really is that simple, no reading between the lines etc required.
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Well then. Stop reading between my paragraphs! Two paragraphs, one stating a company that recycles battery. A different paragraph stating possible lifecycle of an EV battery.
 
wuyanxu said:
Both are cars, both can only do 50% of its advertised original range. What's different?

How do you know a good service will restore the ICE fuel consumption? How much work is involved with this? (strip down of while engine to remove carbon deposits?)
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We aren't still living in the 1970s where having to decoke a cylinder head every 100,000 miles was commonplace (cost me about a tenner on my first car, price of a head gasket as I did the labour myself). Fuels are better and engine management ensures that petrol engines don't run rich leading to carbon deposit buildup that created the need to decoke.

wuyanxu said:
Today, my Skoda dirty diesel DSG is in for gearbox oil and filter change at £180 every 40k. I'm putting the miles on a courtesy Polo SE 1.0l turbo petrol manual (not even centre armrest!). Experiencing gear change again. :confused: In comparison to the Nissan Micra diesel manual courtesy car I had about 1 year ago, this petrol is not much better in power delivery. The power just isn't there unless I'm riving it beyond 2500rpm, at which point the engine makes itself heard, the sound is rougher than my 2.0l diesel. Then there's the constant gear change, want to go faster? change down. Want to slow down with engine braking? change down. Want to stop the engine screaming? change up. There's no enjoyment in doing this chore that can be automated, or even not bother with gearbox all together.
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Turbos, whether on diesels or petrols, remove the torque right at the bottom of the rev range. I expect you know that already. It's one of the reasons why I don't like diesels very much (though to be fair my Transit isn't bad, it pulls from about 1500rpm).

Engine "screaming"? The manufacturers build them with a rev limit and that means they are safe to that limit, except when cold (when they are still safe but high revs will increase engine wear as the oil is not up to temperature). My car pulls smoothly from idle and sings at 7200rpm just before it hits the limiter, it doesn't scream. It is naturally aspirated though.

Your comment about engine braking is laughable. The brakes on the car are there to slow it down, the engine is to make it go. Changing down to increase engine braking is absurd. As well as not living in the 1970s, we aren't driving pre-WW2 Standard Eights with cable brakes any more
 
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Modern GDI petrols do actually coke up. There was a bunch of bother with Peugeot one I think that's in lots of cars. Gets gummed up and runs like a bag of spanners until it's cleaned out.
 
Mr Bump said:
So all those folk thinking Tesla are going down and EVs are not poplular.
Just announced massive profits.
Can't wait for there next car to be launched

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-45971786
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Perhaps you missed the bit that said it is the 3rd (quarterly) profit in 15yrs. They have never made a full year profit.
Most car manufacturers make a profit in the 3rd quarter. One manufacturer has just made a 3rd quarter profit more than 3 times the size of Tesla's profit which included part of it's operations actually making a loss, greater than Tesla's profit.
Tesla have announced this week they have had to drop lots of optional extras from their vehicles, that tells me that they are still having production woes. It's probably a move to make the production simpler and reduce the 85% of their cars having to be rectified before they can leave the factory, whilst most manufacturers only have 15% of their production requiring reworking.
 
onomatopoeia said:
We aren't still living in the 1970s where having to decoke a cylinder head every 100,000 miles was commonplace (cost me about a tenner on my first car, price of a head gasket as I did the labour myself). Fuels are better and engine management ensures that petrol engines don't run rich leading to carbon deposit buildup that created the need to decoke.


Turbos, whether on diesels or petrols, remove the torque right at the bottom of the rev range. I expect you know that already. It's one of the reasons why I don't like diesels very much (though to be fair my Transit isn't bad, it pulls from about 1500rpm).
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The Ford 1.0 Ecoboost produces maximum torque (170Nm, 190Nm on overboost from 1400rpm) remaining constant through to 4500-5000rpm.
 
nilagin said:
The Ford 1.0 Ecoboost produces maximum torque (170Nm, 190Nm on overboost from 1400rpm) remaining constant through to 4500-5000rpm.
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Ditto my Focus 2.0 TDI, and it makes a Hell of a lot of torque for a 2.0 engine.
 
nilagin said:
The Ford 1.0 Ecoboost produces maximum torque (170Nm, 190Nm on overboost from 1400rpm) remaining constant through to 4500-5000rpm.
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Looking at graphs of these shows the torque to be exactly constant, not just flattish, but perfectly so - what's the control mechanism for this or is it just an idealised graph?
 
Alan Clogwyn said:
Looking at graphs of these shows the torque to be exactly constant, not just flattish, but perfectly so - what's the control mechanism for this or is it just an idealised graph?
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It is just the way in which the boost levels are set. Not sure of the reasoning behind it. It could possibly be to do with peak cylinder pressures.
A new 1.0 Ecoboost should be appearing in vehicles soon and has the exact same torque "curve".
 
And a Google for Ford Motor co criminal investigation throws up over 12 million results.
 
Nod said:
And a Google for Ford Motor co criminal investigation throws up over 12 million results.
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Majority of which will be about the Pinto.
I just googled Ford Motor Company criminal investigations and on the first page one wasn't even about Ford it was Toyota.
 
Ford shutting there engine factory for a week due to low demand for JLR world crusher engine
 
neil_g said:
because sensationalism.
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You are probably right. It isn't the whole factory anyway, it is just one engine line.
He does like to see a British workforce losing money though.
 
nilagin said:
You are probably right. It isn't the whole factory anyway, it is just one engine line.
He does like to see a British workforce losing money though.
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Or The Fraud motor company could make better products with a more environmental slant instead of digger engines.
That way they might actually give there employees a decent future.
 
Mr Bump said:
Or The Fraud motor company could make better products with a more environmental slant instead of digger engines.
That way they might actually give there employees a decent future.
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Unlike several car manufacturers who have had to withdraw some models or derate engines. All Ford cars and engines have passed the Real World Emissions without having to be derated.
What is a digger engine?
 
Cobra said:
Have you been near any sites where they are used lately? :D
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No, but Ford haven't made any industrial engines in around 20yrs or more and they were mainly farm machinery.
Certainly nothing that would find it's way into a Jag.
 
nilagin said:
No, but Ford haven't made any industrial engines in around 20yrs or more and they were mainly farm machinery.
Certainly nothing that would find it's way into a Jag.
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But all diesel engines are evil, doesn't matter who makes them (Apparently :D )
 
Despite progress, air pollution causes more than 500,000 premature deaths in Europe every year, the European Environment Agency (EEA) has warned.

Its report said pollution levels were slowly improving in EU countries but remained far higher than EU and World Health Organization (WHO) standards.

Air pollution is the main cause of premature death in 41 European nations and remains "too high", the EEA said.

The findings are based on 2015 data from more than 2,500 sites.

"Air pollution is an invisible killer and we need to step up our efforts to address the causes," said the head of the agency, Hans Bruyninckx.

The air quality report commissioned by the European Commission comes weeks after an EU watchdog said most of the 28 EU states failed to meet the bloc's air quality targets.

It had warned the toll on health was worse in eastern European countries than China and India.

How bad is it?
This year's estimated number of premature deaths is an increase on earlier data, which said air pollution caused around 476,000 premature deaths in Europe in 2013.

About 422,000 people died prematurely in European countries in 2015 due to exposure to harmful levels of fine particle matter (PM2.5).

These particles are too small to see or smell but have a devastating effect - causing or aggravating heart disease, asthma and lung cancer.
 
_101607903_gettyimages-172190627.jpg


Diesel cars are one of the key reasons behind the UK's air pollution problems
 
My wife has just changed her car. I asked her if she wanted to consider a hybrid or an electric. She looked at me as though I was stupid, which I might well be, and said “you must be joking”.

Another diesel it is then.

The only time I will consider a hybrid/electric is when there’s a choice of vehicles that meets my requirement. 500 litre boot, 4 wheel drive and that I actually like the look of, the build quality and how it drives and falls within budget. The only car I’ve seen that comes close for an electric is the Jaguar i-pace and at £63000 it won’t be parked on my drive.

As for a hybrid maybe the X3 when it’s released but probably outside my budget.
 
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