Car buyers should have 'long, hard think' about diesel

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I've read the 2 hour rule when using baby car seat is quite important but many parents ignore this. Eg. due to baby is asleep. We try and time to leave when it is his nap time so he falls asleep quickly to maximise the 2 hours. As MatBin mentioned, I do foresee the break get longer and longer as he grows up and become more aware of his surroundings, wanting more playtime. (we have a zero screen time policy)

Indeed, the driver and passenger also needed a toilet break over the 3 hours trip. I've never driven this trip (N London to N Somerset) without stopping on one of the 3 services on M4 for a break. I don't know how other people does it. So I think 200 miles EV range, ~3 hours of motorway speed driving, is more than enough, IF public charging is better.


M&C spots??
 
wuyanxu said:
I've read the 2 hour rule when using baby car seat is quite important but many parents ignore this. Eg. due to baby is asleep. We try and time to leave when it is his nap time so he falls asleep quickly to maximise the 2 hours. As MatBin mentioned, I do foresee the break get longer and longer as he grows up and become more aware of his surroundings, wanting more playtime. (we have a zero screen time policy)

Indeed, the driver and passenger also needed a toilet break over the 3 hours trip. I've never driven this trip (N London to N Somerset) without stopping on one of the 3 services on M4 for a break. I don't know how other people does it. So I think 200 miles EV range, ~3 hours of motorway speed driving, is more than enough, IF public charging is better.


M&C spots??
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I was a similar parent when we had our first. But when the second came along all 'rules' went out the window! I remember how meticulous we were with how clean the dummies and teats were. When the second came along, if he dropped a bottle it was a quick wipe on trouser leg and back in the mouth! I've chilled out a lot more regarding screen time. There's no doubt that there are some parents that user the TV or iPad as a baby sitter, but I think back to how much I used to love some films or Tv shows and I wouldn't want to deprive my children of that.
 
Rapscallion said:
I was a similar parent when we had our first. But when the second came along all 'rules' went out the window! I remember how meticulous we were with how clean the dummies and teats were. When the second came along, if he dropped a bottle it was a quick wipe on trouser leg and back in the mouth! I've chilled out a lot more regarding screen time. There's no doubt that there are some parents that user the TV or iPad as a baby sitter, but I think back to how much I used to love some films or Tv shows and I wouldn't want to deprive my children of that.
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Same with Guns, we had a no guns policy until my son started to build them out of duplo!!
 
Rapscallion said:
I was a similar parent when we had our first. But when the second came along all 'rules' went out the window! I remember how meticulous we were with how clean the dummies and teats were. When the second came along, if he dropped a bottle it was a quick wipe on trouser leg and back in the mouth! I've chilled out a lot more regarding screen time. There's no doubt that there are some parents that user the TV or iPad as a baby sitter, but I think back to how much I used to love some films or Tv shows and I wouldn't want to deprive my children of that.
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Hehe, yes, I know what you mean. The night time dummy had recently been used for a full week before we remembered to clean it. Of course we'll sit through Peppa Pig or the like in near future, keeping in line with his generation's pop culture. But for things like car trip, eating food or playtime, we will try our hardest to stay away from the screens. Screen time takes away imagination, an area I think will be critical when the AI takes our jobs.

Sorry for the thread drift........ back to diesels.
I managed 62.1mpg on my drive back, not economical driving, just set adaptive cruise to 70mph and overtake as necessary. But after a lunch and grocery shop at Morrisons (parking in charging space because it was really busy), I saw it drop to 58mpg when I got home. This got me thinking about hybrids.
Would the 48v mild-hybrid systems being put into cars now able to help maintain good fuel economy? The thing really bothers me is when the engine needs to start just to move forward a few car spaces, typically how far is the 48v system able to move the vehicle?
 
MatBin said:
not so much the case if you have decided to shop and charge the EV.
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Sort of depends on whether it's a quick shop or a big one. We're usually in and out of Sainsbury's in under an hour and that gives us enough charge for a day's normal use (2 trips to town and back). Sometimes see people (business types) working in the back seat on their laptop while the car's charging - presumably to get a full charge. Half tempted to leave the Leaf there on charge for 3 hours (maximum stay allowed) while we go off on the bike (or in the M-X5) for lunch somewhere but that seems a bit cheeky!
 
Mr Perceptive said:
Same with Guns, we had a no guns policy until my son started to build them out of duplo!!
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Our son would bite his toast into a gun shape - anyone would have thought he were an American, except that I did the same kind of thing until I was about 10 YO too.
 
wuyanxu said:
Everyone's existing electric car becomes greener. With EV's, you no longer need to go and buy the latest car to reduce your emissions.
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I have never yet bought a newer car to reduce emissions. Paying £0 tax or £165 tax per year is of no consequence as far as I am concerned.

Having said that Nissan have just said their Leaf batteries should last 22yrs. That is 10yrs longer than the lifespan they give the car. Yet the average lifespan for a new car is 15yrs so expect a Nissan to die 3yrs earlier.
 
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nilagin said:
I have never yet bought a newer car to reduce emissions.
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Didn't you say it is the "natural progression" for older cars get replaced by cleaner cars?
nilagin said:
It is natural progression. For those that can't afford one of the newer cars, their older cars get replaced by a cleaner car, owned for a few years then replaced for a cleaner car again.
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But with EV, there's no need to buy a newer car. Because they have zero tailpipe emissions, their per-mile emission reduce as the grid become greener, doesn't matter whether it was a 2011 Leaf or a 2019 I-Pace. The grid reduce emission by 20%, all EV get 20% reduction.

nilagin said:
Having said that Nissan have just said their Leaf batteries should last 22yrs. That is 10yrs longer than the lifespan they give the car. Yet the average lifespan for a new car is 15yrs so expect a Nissan to die 3yrs earlier.
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So you think Nissan ICE cars would be different and last average 15 years because..... ?
How is this 3 years difference relevant to anything with regard to petrol/diesel/electric debate?

But I have to point out, Nissan didn't specify what they regard as "last". If the car can only hold charge to drive 20 miles, does it qualify their lasting 22 years claim?
 
wuyanxu said:
But with EV, there's no need to buy a newer car. Because they have zero tailpipe emissions, their per-mile emission reduce as the grid become greener, doesn't matter whether it was a 2011 Leaf or a 2019 I-Pace. The grid reduce emission by 20%, all EV get 20% reduction.
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But if we all switched to EV then the grid emissions will significantly increase to cope with demand.

And does the grid really have the infrastructure capacity to cope with the demands of an all EV society. There is an enormous environmental impact in upgrading the grid. Do you really think housing estates are ‘grid’ designed for charging 1-2 EVs per night per house.

The upgrading of the electricity supply chain should not be underestimated.
 
wuyanxu said:
Didn't you say it is the "natural progression" for older cars get replaced by cleaner cars?
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Yes I did say that, but that has nothing to do with why I decide to replace my cars. I don't and never have based my choice of car on tailpipe emissions. So it doesn't matter to me that I wouldn't have to keep renewing my car to reduce tailpipe emissions if I bought an electric car.
The comment about lifespan of a Leaf was more of a concern of why Nissan feel a Leaf will last 3yrs less than the 15yr average lifespan of a car from new, especially as you assure us an electric motor is likely to last longer than an ICE and will require less attention due to less moving parts. If the average Leaf only has a lifespan of 12yrs, you aren't going to keep it 10yrs as the value will drop considerably compared to an ICE which would likely have another 5 years life left in it.
 
Mr Perceptive said:
But if we all switched to EV then the grid emissions will significantly increase to cope with demand.

And does the grid really have the infrastructure capacity to cope with the demands of an all EV society. There is an enormous environmental impact in upgrading the grid. Do you really think housing estates are ‘grid’ designed for charging 1-2 EVs per night per house.

The upgrading of the electricity supply chain should not be underestimated.
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In long term, this is where second-life EV battery industry comes in. Where micro-grid (home/substation battery) will help balance the load. Not only it is able to help balance the load, it is also able to store excess daytime solar for night time use.

One EV at most draws 7kW. In comparison, a small 2 bed flat with 3 storage heaters draws 3* 3kW, plus a 11kW shower. It's not certain whether the infrastructure do need much upgrading.........

nilagin said:
The comment about lifespan of a Leaf was more of a concern of why Nissan feel a Leaf will last 3yrs less than the 15yr average lifespan of a car from new, especially as you assure us an electric motor is likely to last longer than an ICE and will require less attention due to less moving parts. If the average Leaf only has a lifespan of 12yrs, you aren't going to keep it 10yrs as the value will drop considerably compared to an ICE which would likely have another 5 years life left in it.
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Nissan are not known for their build quality, so it's entirely possible that they rate all their cars 12 years average lifespan. There is not enough information to compare Nissan EV against industrial average as you have done.

Let's re-visit this in 2024, where my Leaf is 10 years old and see whether my EV is worth more or an ICE car of similar age, mileage and size. All we can go on at the moment is that 2011 Leaf seems to be hold their value very well indeed.
 
wuyanxu said:
Nissan are not known for their build quality,
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Have a look on the roads and see how many Micras of 10 years + age there are compared to Corsas, Kas, Fiestas etc..
 
True.

But I feel the Leaf isn't very well really built, compared to my Skoda, my parents Volvo and a lot worse compared to my previous Mercedes. The new Micra and Pulse I've had as courtesy car are shockingly bad. But then, my "feel" is just based on touchy-feely parts, weight of the door, etc. May be their mechanical parts are better?

On the other hand, I've read a few HonestJohn recommendations back in 2017 to learn Nissan CVT are to be avoided, whereas Toyota and Honda are rock solid. Hence my perception that in terms of reliability, Nissan is the less reliable of Japanese brands.
 
I think Nissan vehicle reliability has suffered as a result of the Renault partnership, particularly with diesel engine components and general electrical issues. I was involved with their IT infrastructure at the factory in Sunderland (before 2000) when vehicles were built to a quality in those days where the attention to the quality & fit of the components was pretty intense. I suspect they build to a price now.
 
wuyanxu said:
There is not enough information to compare Nissan EV against industrial average as you have done.

Let's re-visit this in 2024, where my Leaf is 10 years old and see whether my EV is worth more or an ICE car of similar age, mileage and size. All we can go on at the moment is that 2011 Leaf seems to be hold their value very well indeed.
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I would have thought the fact that Nissan giving their own vehicle an average lifespan of 12 years would be more than enough to go on. The only value in the car will be a battery that should last another 10yrs.
 
I followed a Polar network installer van today - a diesel Citroen Berlingo :D
I mean, if they can't run an EV...
 
Byker28i said:
I followed a Polar network installer van today - a diesel Citroen Berlingo :D
I mean, if they can't run an EV...
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In my post earlier about Tesla build quality, the Tesla repair and service mobile vehicles were all ice vans.
 
wuyanxu said:
But with EV, there's no need to buy a newer car. Because they have zero tailpipe emissions, their per-mile emission reduce as the grid become greener, doesn't matter whether it was a 2011 Leaf or a 2019 I-Pace. The grid reduce emission by 20%, all EV get 20% reduction.
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I think this point is important.

A 4 year old diesel people drive now is subject to emission charges. Whereas with an EV, due to older and newer cars will all benefit from grid level improvements and majority of pollution happened at production. The government can no longer levy tax against older cars. This benefits all consumers and especially poorer group who can only afford old cars, unlike the current status quo.

Of course government will always find other ways to levy tax on all vehicles. But there are no longer good reason to target older vehicles.




nilagin said:
I would have thought the fact that Nissan giving their own vehicle an average lifespan of 12 years would be more than enough to go on. The only value in the car will be a battery that should last another 10yrs.
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Do you have any evidence that Nissan estimates their ICE vehicles to last 15 years and specifically estimates their EV with a shorter lifespan to make that statement?

nilagin said:
It's not ice owners that need educating on Ev's, It's the EV owners themselves that need to be educated.
https://news.google.com/articles/CAIiEKb5s-DNXDfV18LpVEbCwV8qFggEKg4IACoGCAowm6R6MMKqCTCfrxU?hl=en-GB&gl=GB&ceid=GB:en
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And who is responsible for installing the infrastructure?
Here's a hint: Nissan contributed towards my home charger. Nissan/Renault funded "Electric Highway" back in 2011-2013. Tesla built the supercharger network and funded their destination charging network.

nilagin said:
In my post earlier about Tesla build quality, the Tesla repair and service mobile vehicles were all ice vans.
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The ICE vans are being phased out with older Model S.
https://electrek.co/2018/03/12/tesla-new-custom-model-s-mobile-service-vehicle/
I saw one on M1 a few months ago.
 
nilagin said:
It's not ice owners that need educating on Ev's, It's the EV owners themselves that need to be educated.
https://news.google.com/articles/CAIiEKb5s-DNXDfV18LpVEbCwV8qFggEKg4IACoGCAowm6R6MMKqCTCfrxU?hl=en-GB&gl=GB&ceid=GB:en
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The same people probably use extension cables for mowing the lawn and run over it with the mower. Or don't fully uncoil the extension lead every time they use it. Or don't use an RCD. I made up a 30A extension lead to get power out to charge the Leaf while we were waiting for the "proper" charger to be installed.
 
wuyanxu said:
Do you have any evidence that Nissan estimates their ICE vehicles to last 15 years and specifically estimates their EV with a shorter lifespan to make that statement?
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I never said Nissan estimates their ICE car lasts an estimated 15yrs. That is the average covering all car manufacturers. The 12yrs for the Leaf came from their statement about the battery 22yr life expectancy oulasting the life expectancy of the vehicle by 10yrs.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...DxAK&usg=AOvVaw32YNmeN0t0MagBvivap-gM&ampcf=1
 
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nilagin said:
I never said Nissan estimates their ICE car lasts an estimated 15yrs. That is the average covering all car manufacturers. The 12yrs for the Leaf came from their statement about the battery 22yr life expectancy oulasting the life expectancy of the vehicle by 10yrs.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...DxAK&usg=AOvVaw32YNmeN0t0MagBvivap-gM&ampcf=1
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Thus the below statements can only be said for Nissan cars in general:
nilagin said:
Having said that Nissan have just said their Leaf batteries should last 22yrs. That is 10yrs longer than the lifespan they give the car. Yet the average lifespan for a new car is 15yrs so expect a Nissan to die 3yrs earlier.
Click to expand...
nilagin said:
I would have thought the fact that Nissan giving their own vehicle an average lifespan of 12 years would be more than enough to go on. The only value in the car will be a battery that should last another 10yrs.
Click to expand...
Unrelated to Leaf and EV components as you have been suggesting.


Byker28i said:
I followed a Polar network installer van today - a diesel Citroen Berlingo :D
I mean, if they can't run an EV...
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Pod-point use Outlander PHEV.
Let's be honest, there isn't a lot of long range EV vans to choose from when the charger companies were established. Another issue that points to the lack of choices in EV being supplied to the market.
 
wuyanxu said:
Thus the below statements can only be said for Nissan cars in general:


Unrelated to Leaf and EV components as you have been suggesting.
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Did you even read the article. It says that Nissan claim that the battery will have an average life expectancy of 22 years, outliving the car by 10 to 12 years. How is that unrelated. What exactly do they expect to have died on the car before then? A 12yr corrosion warranty is pretty much standard amongst manufacturers, so It's unlikely to be the bodywork. So that pretty much leaves the powertrain that would end the vehicles life expectancy.
 
wuyanxu said:
Pod-point use Outlander PHEV.
Let's be honest, there isn't a lot of long range EV vans to choose from when the charger companies were established. Another issue that points to the lack of choices in EV being supplied to the market.
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but if they are running around installing charging points....
 
wuyanxu said:
In long term, this is where second-life EV battery industry comes in. Where micro-grid (home/substation battery) will help balance the load. Not only it is able to help balance the load, it is also able to store excess daytime solar for night time use.

One EV at most draws 7kW. In comparison, a small 2 bed flat with 3 storage heaters draws 3* 3kW, plus a 11kW shower. It's not certain whether the infrastructure do need much upgrading.........
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Oh great so in addition to 20 dustbins I now have outside my house I will now need a bank of batteries running off and to solar panels on my roof in what was once a nice conservation area.

Where do these second-life batteries come from, would that be the car owner buying a new set of batteries to install in their current (sorry) car, which is odd because I thought we were being told a new pack wouldn't be required only a small number of cells would die so we could replace just them. This new full replacement set, was it calculated in your lifetime running costs? Or are we getting them for cars which are no longer required i.e. going to the scrap yard?

I can hardly wait, I am so excited at the prospect of a load of old batteries joining the dustbins outside my house!
 
nilagin said:
Did you even read the article. It says that Nissan claim that the battery will have an average life expectancy of 22 years, outliving the car by 10 to 12 years. How is that unrelated. What exactly do they expect to have died on the car before then? A 12yr corrosion warranty is pretty much standard amongst manufacturers, so It's unlikely to be the bodywork. So that pretty much leaves the powertrain that would end the vehicles life expectancy.
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Your ability to throw dirt on EV amazes me. You were able to turn a very questionable Nissan press statement into a case against EV's in general.

MatBin said:
Where do these second-life batteries come from, would that be the car owner buying a new set of batteries to install in their current (sorry) car, which is odd because I thought we were being told a new pack wouldn't be required only a small number of cells would die so we could replace just them. This new full replacement set, was it calculated in your lifetime running costs? Or are we getting them for cars which are no longer required i.e. going to the scrap yard?
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As Nissan pointed out (though without much useful information) that battery outlasts the cars. So by the time car itself fails beyond economical repair, if not recycled, the battery could be re-used as stationary battery.

We plan to drive our Leaf to the ground. Wife is happy with the car for her needs. By the time car is worth about as much as scrap for normal cars, I'm hopeful companies will pop up to either buy your battery or provide service to install your EV battery into your house.

Answer to your question, getting them from cars which are going to scrap yard.
 
nilagin said:
Not exactly an ideal or prectical vehicle to use as a mobile workshop. They would have done better to fit the EV powertrain into the fleet of vans they already had.
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Have you seen prices for retrofitted electric vehicles? Your attack only really makes sense after manufacturers put out large vans with EV powertrain and Tesla renewed their fleet with more diesel vans. Currently, Tesla doesn't make electric vans so they don't have much choice, just like Joe public with regard to EV's in general.

Byker28i said:
but if they are running around installing charging points....
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I'm not sure how far they drive each day....... let's do a simple calculation:
If the vans can do 300 miles total range, and lunch break puts it back to 80%, that enables the vehicle to be driven theoretical maximum of over 500 miles each day. Average of over 60 miles non stop driving over 8 hours.
Or 250 miles of total range, no plug in during the work day => 50mph average speed over 5 hours of driving, leaving just 3 hours to do one install.

(~140 miles from N Somerset to Colindale, ~90% motorway miles, no congestion with ACC set at 70mph, but trip computer told me I averaged 50mph. Average speed is a lot lower than people thinks)
 
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nilagin said:
Did you even read the article. It says that Nissan claim that the battery will have an average life expectancy of 22 years, outliving the car by 10 to 12 years. How is that unrelated. What exactly do they expect to have died on the car before then? A 12yr corrosion warranty is pretty much standard amongst manufacturers, so It's unlikely to be the bodywork. So that pretty much leaves the powertrain that would end the vehicles life expectancy.
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It will be all the plastic components, trim and electronic gadgets & gizmos giving up the ghost..... replacements will be hard to find and the costs will be astronomic. How many manufacturers today commit to being able to supply these for 15 years or more for obsolete vehicles?
 
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wuyanxu said:
Your ability to throw dirt on EV amazes me. You were able to turn a very questionable Nissan press statement into a case against EV's in general.
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Nissan make a statement about the life expectancy of their battery compared to the car it powers and I am the one throwing dirt? You are either more deluded than I gave you credit for or yet again showing your ignorance as far as cars are concerned.
 
broc said:
It will be all the plastic components, trim and electronic gadgets & gizmos giving up the ghost..... replacements will be hard to find and the costs will be astronomic. How many manufacturers today commit to being able to supply these for 15 years or more for obsolete vehicles?
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I have run 12yr old cars before where none of that has failed or needed replacing. At that sort of age people are less likely to go to a dealer for replacements and simple things like that can be had from a breakers or refurbished parts can be available.
 
nilagin said:
Nissan make a statement about the life expectancy of their battery compared to the car it powers and I am the one throwing dirt? You are either more deluded than I gave you credit for or yet again showing your ignorance as far as cars are concerned.
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Ok, I'm deluded. When I've simply pointed out your horribly bad logic, just to get a tangible bad word on EV's.

How about you show us comparable evidence (eg manufacturer statement to similar effect) that Nissan predict their ICE vehicles lasting longer than Nissan EV.

Otherwise, it's like comparing apples to oranges for the sake of saying one group of apple goes bad quicker than oranges.
 
nilagin said:
I have run 12yr old cars before where none of that has failed or needed replacing. At that sort of age people are less likely to go to a dealer for replacements and simple things like that can be had from a breakers or refurbished parts can be available.
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I have run old cars too, & in those days there was a lot less plastic and electronics in them when they were built, when compared to today's cars. A car is a pretty hostile environment for both of these technologies, where they are exposed to extremes of heat and moisture, neither of which are good for them. Plastics age & go brittle, electronics suffer from cracked PCBs and dry joints, wiring looms suffer from moisture ingress & subsequent corrosion, at some point the cost of problem determination, repair or replacement of these components becomes uneconomic as more and more people will lack the skills & knowledge to carry out repairs.
 
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wuyanxu said:
Ok, I'm deluded. When I've simply pointed out your horribly bad logic, just to get a tangible bad word on EV's.

How about you show us comparable evidence (eg manufacturer statement to similar effect) that Nissan predict their ICE vehicles lasting longer than Nissan EV.

Otherwise, it's like comparing apples to oranges for the sake of saying one group of apple goes bad quicker than oranges.
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For a vehicle to reach the end of it's lifespan, something major and expensive needs replacing. If they claim the battery is good for 22yrs, what do you think is left? It really isn't that hard to work out. It isn't even hard logic. It doesn't really matter how long an ICE Nissan will last, it could be the normal manufacturer 13-15yr average or it could be the same 10-12yrs they have stated for the Leaf. At the moment people can still choose between ice or the few EV on the market. I would rather spend my money on a vehicle with an average life expectancy of 13-15yrs than one that the manufacturer has by their own admission given an average life expectancy of 10-15yrs.
Also what is concerning is the number of the items the owner had to replace or fix on his 6yr old Tesla Model S, as well as the cost if he had sourced the parts new from Tesla. You really shouldn't have to be buying 2nd hand parts to fix a relatively new car.
 
broc said:
I have run old cars too, & in those days there was a lot less plastic and electronics in them when they were built, when compared to today's cars. A car is a pretty hostile environment for both of these technologies, where they are exposed to extremes of heat and moisture, neither of which are good for them. Plastics age & go brittle, electronics suffer from cracked PCBs and dry joints, wiring looms suffer from moisture ingress & subsequent corrosion, at some point the cost of problem determination, repair or replacement of these components becomes uneconomic as more and more people will lack the skills & knowledge to carry out repairs.
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I would say most cars are better protected today for all the above than years ago. There is no more plastic in today's cars than there was 30 or more years ago. The problems you mention were more likely to happen years ago, car manufacturers give components more relative durability and reliability testing now.
 
nilagin said:
I would say most cars are better protected today for all the above than years ago. There is no more plastic in today's cars than there was 30 or more years ago. The problems you mention were more likely to happen years ago, car manufacturers give components more relative durability and reliability testing now.
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Airbags, electronic instrument clusters, onboard computers, Climate control modules, ABS controllers? Plastic bumpers? Many of these cost hundreds of pounds today to replace in new cars, they will represent a significant percentage of a 12-15 year old cars residual value should they need replacing. How many cars are written off after accidents because several of their airbags have deployed and are too costly to replace?
 
broc said:
Airbags, electronic instrument clusters, onboard computers, Climate control modules, ABS controllers? Plastic bumpers? Many of these cost hundreds of pounds today to replace in new cars, they will represent a significant percentage of a 12-15 year old cars residual value should they need replacing. How many cars are written off after accidents because several of their airbags have deployed and are too costly to replace?
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But bumpers and airbags are only likely to need replacing as a result of an accident. Not anything to do with the life expectancy of a car. All the airbags deploying can write off a relatively new car.
 
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