Car buyers should have 'long, hard think' about diesel

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What do you think JLR is doing to the cars when you bring it in? It's a software bug where a new version of software need to be loaded. With almost all of car's functionality done with software in the loop, almost all of the car's bugs can be fixed by software update, if the car has been setup to receive such updates. Thus, compared to traditional manufacturer such as JLR, Tesla does things different and doesn't waste people's time with recalls for software issues.

Do you take your phone back to the place who sold it to you for software updates?

Why does Tesla require issuing a statement to say their cars are safe if their cars rarely catches fire? ICE cars go up in flame all the time and manufacturers doesn't issue statements every month to say their cars are safe. Mat's wording shows assumptions and uncertainties required when all of us doesn't have insider facts from Tesla on this issue. Whereas you have used wording that show you either have insider knowledge or made giant assumptions.


The problem is not battery degrades if you fully charge it. The problem is battery degradation accelerates if you leave it fully charged or empty for a long period of time.

If you charge to 100% overnight for your long trip next day, it is perfectly fine. But if you charge to 100% before going on a month long holiday, the battery will undergo irreversible chemical changes that degrades its capacity. Hence despite I charge my Leaf to 100% most weekdays, it hasn't accelerates its degradation in comparison to other Leaf's.

Audi probably thinks similarly to you, their E-Tron has 90kWh but actual usable capacity is below 80kWh (IIRC, I'll have to search for it to confirm). It has two benefits: You can quick charge beyond 90% whereas most other cars slow down a lot after 80%. You can also keep the car at 100% without worry about accelerated battery degradation. But downside is carrying around huge amount of excess weight and not able to access the extra capacity for long trips.

Off the top of my head JLR will be able to check the brakes for any signs of excessive wear or damage to the brakes and they can also get a good idea of how many vehicles have actually been affected. You can't do that with an over the air software update. But then JLR are just a traditional car manufacturer with years of experience, but only just starting to build sell ev, unlike Tesla, so JLR are obviously doing it wrong.

No one has said a manufacturer has to make monthly statements. Another person as well as myself has pointed out the correct course of action to you, but all you can do is make silly pathetic statements and accusations of assumptions. It is a simple logical step towards fault correction as well collecting data to determine how widespread a problem is and or whether it has had an adverse effect on something else on the car. All that information goes into ensuring that less fault occur in the future. It isn't an assumption, it is a statement of fact. I would hope Tesla are indeed doing their research properly and to do so will require a full recall but other than the software update and saying they will send a team to China, nothing more has been said. A quick Google on EV fires throws up just two manufacturer names, Tesla and the leading Chinese EV manufacturer. But industry experts feel that not only could Tesla be affecting their own reputation and sales but that of other EV cars as well.
Tesla have the most prolific fire rate for EV's so to say fires are rare and that ice vehicles catch fire all the time is a stupid statement to make. A vehicle can catch fire for any number of reasons, most will be down to poor maintenance or something not fitted properly during servicing. But if it is down to a common flaw in the vehicle, it is how a manufacturer responds to it.
A few ice vehicles had caught fire as a result of the coolant degas pipe hardening over time and fracturing allowing coolant to escape and the engine to overheat. On some vehicles this meant a blown head gasket and oil getting onto the hot exhaust resulting in fires. All cars concerned are subject to a recall, a new degas pipe is fitted regardless and an additional temperature sensor fitted in the cylinder head to shut the engine down to prevent any further catastrophic failures should something similar happen again. Signs of failure can also be checked at the same time and fed back to the manufacturer so data can be filed and used in the future.
Another car requiring a software update on a clutch problem. If it were possible a software update could be carried out over the air, but with the recall the car can be checked over for signs of the failure and the manufacturer advised of any such failures.
Let's put it another way. Mr Smith has a Tesla Model S that has recieved it's battery management software update over the air but has another 9 months before his next service. Unknown to Mr Smith and Tesla, his battery has already started to fail prior to the update and was just on the verge of total failure and catching fire. The software update that is perfectly fine on a healthy battery is just going to delay a fire on Mr Smith's battery however. 6 months down the line his battery finally can't hold out any longer, and bursts into flames. In the Chinese video it was fortunate that no people were walking past at the time or sat in the adjacent cars. Mr Smith, his family or anyone in the cars vicinity may not be so fortunate. But that's ok, according to you EV are the future and can set new standards on how to do things.
So now you are saying a fully charged battery weighs more than an 80% charged battery. I have heard it all now.
 
As I've pointed out, no one have managed to distribute malicious updates via the OTA update channel (yet?). I understand it could be a concern, but I trust it a LOT more than having an internet connected car without any updates (a problem you've alluded to with Windows XP).
It's not a case of updates OTA or no updates at all though. You really do try to twist things to your view don't you.
You work in firmware development so by no means be deemed to be lacking intelligence but you do come to some strange conclusions.
 
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OTA updates in Tesla works just like on your phone. You get notified there's a new version available, you choose when you want it to install (usually overnight) and it's ready to go in the morning. You can stay with old version indefinitely if you want.

Being battery powered car, there's no concern with needing the ignition to be on or car looses power. Remember, EV battery are pretty big.

If an update is rolled out over the air and it turns out has serious fault? A bug fix update could be quickly rolled out. Cautious people can choose to not install the update for a few weeks to make sure no reports of such fault. Same question can be asked of dealership recalls, what if the recall causes problems? VAG dieselgate "fixes"?

Fair point re. EV not needing to be switched on, that would eliminate one issue.

But regarding the fault side of things, they could be reliant on customer feedback depending on the fault and if the feedback comes in the form of crashes then surely this could be a problem? Then there's also no guarantee that the bug fix will actually fix it properly and we could be back to stage one again waiting for something to happen.

You've kind of already substantiated this with your comments about cautious people waiting, but that doesn't help nor is fair for those not feeling that they should have to be so cautious. What if everyone decides to be cautious, then no updates will happen and the whole thing is a waste of time?
 
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More information on why diesel needs to die a quick death

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-48723302

Air pollution: Trial M4 50mph limits made permanent

The High Court had ordered ministers to act after they failed to meet EU targets on air pollution.
The Welsh Government has now confirmed the restrictions will stay permanently.
The 50mph limits are at the M4 Port Talbot, M4 Newport, A470 Pontypridd, A483 Wrexham and A494 Deeside.
A Welsh Government spokesman said nitrogen dioxide levels were above legal limits and "must be reduced".
 
More information on why diesel needs to die a quick death

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-48723302

Air pollution: Trial M4 50mph limits made permanent

The High Court had ordered ministers to act after they failed to meet EU targets on air pollution.
The Welsh Government has now confirmed the restrictions will stay permanently.
The 50mph limits are at the M4 Port Talbot, M4 Newport, A470 Pontypridd, A483 Wrexham and A494 Deeside.
A Welsh Government spokesman said nitrogen dioxide levels were above legal limits and "must be reduced".
No, it is just a clear indication that something needs to be done to get older dirtier diesels off the road.
A euro 3 diesel has a Nox limit of 0.5 g/km. Euro 4 diesel has a Nox limit of 0.23 g/km. Euro 5 diesel 0.18 g/km and euro 6 0.08 g/km. Just removal of older diesels would see a significant drop in Nox emissions, more than enough to bring within allowable limits.
Just for reference your car's Nox is 0.06 g/km.

If only you knew what you were talking about before you bothered to post.
 
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It's not a case of updates OTA or no updates at all though.
Without OTA updates, how do you get security patches quickly? I'm sure you are aware of the need to minimise window of vulnerability.

No, it's not black and white:
0 - no internet connectivity
1 - internet connected (for weather/traffic), but no OTA update (most cars today)
2 - internet connected, with basic infotainment OTA updates (a few newer cars)
3 - internet connected, with OTA updates for all parts of the car (Tesla)

Remember the JEEP remote hack by attacking the internet connected infotainment system?
https://www.wired.com/2016/08/jeep-hackers-return-high-speed-steering-acceleration-hacks/
There will be more, and the vehicles in the above group 1 have zero protection against it except for time wasting dealership visit everytime a fix appears. Unless it's headline news, I highly doubt manufacturers will issue recall notice everytime update is required.

Group 2, where I-Pace lives, are better protected. But it's a shame people still had to waste time and effort to visit dealerships. I do wonder if I-Pace in other parts of the world have the same problem. Recall costs money, are JLR saving money by only doing recall in areas with brake timing requirements? With OTA updates, there's no reason NOT to release the update world wide, there's almost no cost difference. (probably only have to ask Europe team to update to testbuild and run a few tests, 3 man day at most)

But regarding the fault side of things, they could be reliant on customer feedback depending on the fault and if the feedback comes in the form of crashes then surely this could be a problem? Then there's also no guarantee that the bug fix will actually fix it properly and we could be back to stage one again waiting for something to happen.

You've kind of already substantiated this with your comments about cautious people waiting, but that doesn't help nor is fair for those not feeling that they should have to be so cautious. What if everyone decides to be cautious, then no updates will happen and the whole thing is a waste of time?

There are 2 types of fault I can see:
1- Update fault. This isn't a problem vast majority of the time, updates are very reliable these days, multiple checks should carried out after update. It won't cause an accident because you if the update fails, you are left with old software or no car to drive.
2- Inherent design flaw in the new update. This fault usually occurs in areas of the software that had been changed, so hopefully the company have extensively tested the change before rolling out to the public.

If you look at iPhone OS updates, you'll see vast majority of people will eventually update to the latest version. If there are vulnerabilities in your car, bug fixes should be applied ASAP. Small bug fix updates without any new features are usually safe to do.
I apply minor updates to my home devices all the time without waiting, but I'd wait a few weeks or longer for major updates to be tested by more eager people. I usually only do major updates if I have a few hours to spare, to fix any possible problems. Car updates would be similar, anything garage did I'd carefully test out on my way home, if new features or change in its software, I'd drive carefully and test it whenever possible after the updates. Always read the changelog.
 
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Tesla have the most prolific fire rate for EV's
Source for this statement?

So now you are saying a fully charged battery weighs more than an 80% charged battery. I have heard it all now.
Here's what I have actually said. Please improve your Key Stage 3 reading skills.
Audi probably thinks similarly to you, their E-Tron has 90kWh but actual usable capacity is below 80kWh (IIRC, I'll have to search for it to confirm). It has two benefits: You can quick charge beyond 90% whereas most other cars slow down a lot after 80%. You can also keep the car at 100% without worry about accelerated battery degradation. But downside is carrying around huge amount of excess weight and not able to access the extra capacity for long trips.

Off the top of my head JLR will be able to check the brakes for any signs of excessive wear or damage to the brakes and they can also get a good idea of how many vehicles have actually been affected. You can't do that with an over the air software update. But then JLR are just a traditional car manufacturer with years of experience, but only just starting to build sell ev, unlike Tesla, so JLR are obviously doing it wrong.
What damage? what excess wear? Do you understand what their update is doing?

IF I-Pace EV system fails, the regenerative breaking affect will be non-existence. The vehicle is not engaging the brake as quickly as required. It has nothing to do with physical brake effectiveness or its condition.

No, it is just a clear indication that something needs to be done to get older dirtier diesels off the road.
A euro 3 diesel has a Nox limit of 0.5 g/km. Euro 4 diesel has a Nox limit of 0.23 g/km. Euro 5 diesel 0.18 g/km and euro 6 0.08 g/km. Just removal of older diesels would see a significant drop in Nox emissions, more than enough to bring within allowable limits.
Just for reference your car's Nox is 0.06 g/km.

If only you knew what you were talking about before you bothered to post.
Apart from first sentence, what did Mr Bump post that is extra, not in news articles? Were there any information in his post that caused your unprovoked attack?

Yes, we need to get older diesels off the road. The people who purchased diesels as they were pushed to them by dealers and/or government are now being told they are driving super dirty vehicles. Who benefit? the motor industry, "buy a new car every year so we can incrementally reduce pollution" and your outdated second hand cars will always be targeted by government.

The solution is to get an EV, the car is always zero local emission, you can't be targeted for the same old local pollution reasons. The older and more miles on the EV, the less per-mile pollution it generates. As time goes on, national grid reduces pollution and your EV also reduces its pollution. There's no more reason to keep chasing the moving goal post.
 
The vehicle is not engaging the brake as quickly as required. It has nothing to do with physical brake effectiveness or its condition.

Oh that's good to know, the brake mechanism works really well .......... but there is latency in the system, so the brakes aren't actually applied until xxx mS after you press the pedal. Hardly confidence inspiring stuff.

Its a bit like saying, I know I need to brake, but hold on a minute I'll think about it before actually engaging with the pedal - I'd really enjoy being a passenger in that car.
 
Source for this statement?


Here's what I have actually said. Please improve your Key Stage 3 reading skills.



What damage? what excess wear? Do you understand what their update is doing?

IF I-Pace EV system fails, the regenerative breaking affect will be non-existence. The vehicle is not engaging the brake as quickly as required. It has nothing to do with physical brake effectiveness or its condition.


Apart from first sentence, what did Mr Bump post that is extra, not in news articles? Were there any information in his post that caused your unprovoked attack?

Yes, we need to get older diesels off the road. The people who purchased diesels as they were pushed to them by dealers and/or government are now being told they are driving super dirty vehicles. Who benefit? the motor industry, "buy a new car every year so we can incrementally reduce pollution" and your outdated second hand cars will always be targeted by government.

The solution is to get an EV, the car is always zero local emission, you can't be targeted for the same old local pollution reasons. The older and more miles on the EV, the less per-mile pollution it generates. As time goes on, national grid reduces pollution and your EV also reduces its pollution. There's no more reason to keep chasing the moving goal post.
I mentioned the source in my post. Google. Try it for yourself.

No idea what key stage 3 reading skills are. I have an A grade O level in English Comprehension if that helps.

Do you know that for a fact? Car recalls can be vague in their description and don't inform the customer of what exact work needs to be carried out. They just inform customers that their car may have a problem and request it taken to a dealership for work to be carried out. Even if there is no damage to the braking system, JLR will still be able to determine how many cars have been affected and work out why some it hasn't affected all vehicles. With an OAT, they can't get that information, as I keep trying to explain to you.

Not an unprovoked attack at all. For whatever reason Mr Bump has a downer on diesel vehicles and their emissions, but as I keep pointing out to him and yourself modern diesels are not that high on emissions. The figures I quoted show the progressive reduction in diesel emissions and I included the rating for his petrol car as well for comparison. I omitted to show that many modern diesel vehicles will also be producing less CO2 than his petrol car also.
No one pushed people to buy diesel. Low or zero tax was also available on petrol cars, but the diesel engines were more economical and invariably cheaper to insure than a petrol equivalent.
EV will only become the solution when they are affordable to everyone, the charging infrastructure is good enough and they suit everyone's needs. Until then for the majority of the motoring public, they will replace their cars when they can afford to and with whatever suits them best within their price range. For many that will be a newer diesel or petrol car and every reason to continue to chase the moving goalposts.
 
Without OTA updates, how do you get security patches quickly? I'm sure you are aware of the need to minimise window of vulnerability.

No, it's not black and white:
0 - no internet connectivity
1 - internet connected (for weather/traffic), but no OTA update (most cars today)
2 - internet connected, with basic infotainment OTA updates (a few newer cars)
3 - internet connected, with OTA updates for all parts of the car (Tesla)

Remember the JEEP remote hack by attacking the internet connected infotainment system?
https://www.wired.com/2016/08/jeep-hackers-return-high-speed-steering-acceleration-hacks/
There will be more, and the vehicles in the above group 1 have zero protection against it except for time wasting dealership visit everytime a fix appears. Unless it's headline news, I highly doubt manufacturers will issue recall notice everytime update is required.

Group 2, where I-Pace lives, are better protected. But it's a shame people still had to waste time and effort to visit dealerships. I do wonder if I-Pace in other parts of the world have the same problem. Recall costs money, are JLR saving money by only doing recall in areas with brake timing requirements? With OTA updates, there's no reason NOT to release the update world wide, there's almost no cost difference. (probably only have to ask Europe team to update to testbuild and run a few tests, 3 man day at most)

Truly, I wish you would just post stuff you actually know and have researched (including links to sources). I've mentioned it before but posting your opinions as if they are facts does you no favors as when/if you post some important (to the the discussion) information it is at danger of being ignored as just another one of your biased opinions.

Group 2 - "a few newer cars", would you like to share your source for that?
I don't know the percentages concerned but would guess it's more than a 'few never cars'. I do know that my 2016 BMW non EV falls into Group 2, which would suggest all other BMW and Mini cars do too, I believe Mercs do as I seem to remember it being mentioned when I was considering buying one around 4 years ago!

I'm going to assume that your Skoda doesn't.

Without OTA updates, how do you get security patches quickly? I'm sure you are aware of the need to minimise window of vulnerability." - Via USB, download update from manufacture website with secure login. It's available on my car, not sure of other makes but I'd guess it's possible that BMW haven't cornered the market on 'in car' USB functionality. Note, I do not know to what system the USB update actually does, I just know it mentions 'system' in the in car description.

The bottom line is, are you happy to have all parts of the car accessible OTA with the risk, no matter how small, of a future malicious remote attack (Tesla) or would you rather have safety critical parts of the car protected from any possible remote attack (ALL other car manufacturers). The choice is down to the buyer.
 
@wuyanxu sorry mate but @nilagin just seems to think if you are well off and can afford a nice new top spec diesel you rise above the problem,
it's the poor people you see that pollute ? you just don't understand lol :LOL:
 
I mentioned the source in my post. Google. Try it for yourself.
That's fine because it's surely a reliable source. No one will ever need to read the source, just tell them to google it. I wonder how that will go down with @PaulF

Do you know that for a fact?
JLR PR quote, from my source earlier:
Jaguar will notify owners, and dealers will update the software to reduce the delay, free of charge.

Other JLR recall notice, also states clearly what will be carried out.
https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2015/RCMN-15V037-4299.pdf
In this case "Owners will be mailed a handbook supplement to add to their Owner’s Handbook. The supplement will correspond with the Occupant Classification Sensor (OCS) system operation."


Group 2 - "a few newer cars", would you like to share your source for that?
I don't know the percentages concerned but would guess it's more than a 'few never cars'. I do know that my 2016 BMW non EV falls into Group 2, which would suggest all other BMW and Mini cars do too, I believe Mercs do as I seem to remember it being mentioned when I was considering buying one around 4 years ago!
Would you accept "just google for it"? :police:

I also don't know percentage concerned, but if you think about how many Golf or cheaper cars are being sold. Most of those don't have OTA updates, I know Golf doesn't, I know other MQB derivatives doesn't (eg. Skoda). The huge amount of £10k cars being sold most probably doesn't have this feature. So across the whole spectrum of new cars being sold, those do have OTA updates probably fall into the "few" wording.

Although, are you sure you are not confusing OTA software update with traffic updates? This website suggests 2018 A-class was the first Mercedes to get it: https://www.autoguide.com/auto-news...finally-updating-its-infotainment-system.html

My Skoda and Leaf falls into Group 1, the danger zone.

Without OTA updates, how do you get security patches quickly? I'm sure you are aware of the need to minimise window of vulnerability." - Via USB, download update from manufacture website with secure login. It's available on my car, not sure of other makes but I'd guess it's possible that BMW haven't cornered the market on 'in car' USB functionality.
USB or SD card rely on the user to actively monitor and do the updates. Possibly taking 30min every update. Do you think users will monitor the secure log-in every week and do timely updates? Or do you think the update portal will be checked once, then forgotten about.

I had found updates for my Skoda infotainment system on a third party car forum, got the 2GB file downloaded, but I'm not going to drive 30min without infotainment system just so I can update it. I've updated the map easily once when I bought the car, never bothered to check again.

The bottom line is, are you happy to have all parts of the car accessible OTA with the risk, no matter how small, of a future malicious remote attack (Tesla) or would you rather have safety critical parts of the car protected from any possible remote attack (ALL other car manufacturers). The choice is down to the buyer.
I think the bottom line is: With today's internet connected vehicles, are you happy to drive an out-of-date vehicle that may be turned into a bot-net or victim of other malicious attack; or are you happy to make multiple dealership visit whenever there is a software bug fix required; or are you happy to let the car look after itself with updates but with a small risk of malicious attack.
 
@wuyanxu sorry mate but @nilagin just seems to think if you are well off and can afford a nice new top spec diesel you rise above the problem,
it's the poor people you see that pollute ? you just don't understand lol :LOL:
Neither of you understand that is the problem. It is way beyond your comprehension, which is obvious every time you post.
Move over Alicia Silverstone, Mr Bump wants to take over your old 1995 movie role.
 
The price difference are £70-£200 from looks of it. Which is 1-2 months of petrol cost for average motorist. You can save that much on fuel after 3 months. (3000 miles => ~£75 electric or £300 diesel)

Also, comparison seems to be for manual cars. I have found my automatic cars tend to be slightly more expensive to insure. So the difference may be down to 10% in the real world, 1-2 months of fuel savings.

The noise thing is totally stupid. My Leaf has it and it has never made headphone wearing teens aware of the moving vehicle, I find noise doesn't make any difference on headphone wearers.
 
That's fine because it's surely a reliable source. No one will ever need to read the source, just tell them to google it. I wonder how that will go down with @PaulF


JLR PR quote, from my source earlier:


Other JLR recall notice, also states clearly what will be carried out.
https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2015/RCMN-15V037-4299.pdf
In this case "Owners will be mailed a handbook supplement to add to their Owner’s Handbook. The supplement will correspond with the Occupant Classification Sensor (OCS) system operation."



Would you accept "just google for it"? :police:

I also don't know percentage concerned, but if you think about how many Golf or cheaper cars are being sold. Most of those don't have OTA updates, I know Golf doesn't, I know other MQB derivatives doesn't (eg. Skoda). The huge amount of £10k cars being sold most probably doesn't have this feature. So across the whole spectrum of new cars being sold, those do have OTA updates probably fall into the "few" wording.

Although, are you sure you are not confusing OTA software update with traffic updates? This website suggests 2018 A-class was the first Mercedes to get it: https://www.autoguide.com/auto-news...finally-updating-its-infotainment-system.html

My Skoda and Leaf falls into Group 1, the danger zone.


USB or SD card rely on the user to actively monitor and do the updates. Possibly taking 30min every update. Do you think users will monitor the secure log-in every week and do timely updates? Or do you think the update portal will be checked once, then forgotten about.

I had found updates for my Skoda infotainment system on a third party car forum, got the 2GB file downloaded, but I'm not going to drive 30min without infotainment system just so I can update it. I've updated the map easily once when I bought the car, never bothered to check again.


I think the bottom line is: With today's internet connected vehicles, are you happy to drive an out-of-date vehicle that may be turned into a bot-net or victim of other malicious attack; or are you happy to make multiple dealership visit whenever there is a software bug fix required; or are you happy to let the car look after itself with updates but with a small risk of malicious attack.
That JLR recall also states that the dealer will read the codes on each vehicle to see if it has been affected by the fault. Kind of falls in line with what I have said about the I Pace recall, doesn't it.

Seeing as the average price of a new car is around £27k that means there won't be that many £10k new cars.

You wouldn't need to drive around for 1/2hr with no infotainment. You can do it whilst you have a coffee and toilet break, just pretend you're supercharging your battery.
 
The price difference are £70-£200 from looks of it. Which is 1-2 months of petrol cost for average motorist. You can save that much on fuel after 3 months.

The noise thing is totally stupid. My Leaf has it and it has never made headphone wearing teens aware of the moving vehicle, I find noise doesn't make any difference on headphone wearers.
Still adds on time before an EV becomes cost effective over a comparable ice though.
Blind people don't wear headphones and neither do their guide dogs. Before electric or hybrid cars, guide dogs reacted to the sound of approaching cars when about to cross the road. Now the dogs have to be trained to observe the road. So no it isn't a stupid idea. I suppose you think a lorry or van beeping as it reverses is a stupid idea too.
 
You wouldn't need to drive around for 1/2hr with no infotainment.
With the engine running, adding unnecessary pollution just to get an update installed?

Blind people don't wear headphones and neither do their guide dogs. Before electric or hybrid cars, guide dogs reacted to the sound of approaching cars when about to cross the road. Now the dogs have to be trained to observe the road. So no it isn't a stupid idea. I suppose you think a lorry or van beeping as it reverses is a stupid idea too.
Point taken on guide dogs. I didn't realise dogs only rely upon engine noise. But as you say, they can be trained to spot cars. I do wonder how dogs and blind people do with Rolls Royce and their famously silent engines.

Remember back when motor cars were first introduced, a man with red flag had to be walking in front? The noise is like that, a relic to make the transition feel slower.

The beeping reverse noise is stupid, can be heard far away. It is now no longer in-use, London require you to use a form of white (?) noise instead to reduce noise pollution.


In other news, Petrol head and Top Gear presenter Chris Harris seems to be buying a Model 3 after last night's episode.
View: https://BANNED/harrismonkey/status/1143067467994079237
 
Would you accept "just google for it"? :police:

Although, are you sure you are not confusing OTA software update with traffic updates? This website suggests 2018 A-class was the first Mercedes to get it: https://www.autoguide.com/auto-news...finally-updating-its-infotainment-system.html

My Skoda and Leaf falls into Group 1, the danger zone.


USB or SD card rely on the user to actively monitor and do the updates. Possibly taking 30min every update. Do you think users will monitor the secure log-in every week and do timely updates? Or do you think the update portal will be checked once, then forgotten about.

I had found updates for my Skoda infotainment system on a third party car forum, got the 2GB file downloaded, but I'm not going to drive 30min without infotainment system just so I can update it. I've updated the map easily once when I bought the car, never bothered to check again.


I think the bottom line is: With today's internet connected vehicles, are you happy to drive an out-of-date vehicle that may be turned into a bot-net or victim of other malicious attack; or are you happy to make multiple dealership visit whenever there is a software bug fix required; or are you happy to let the car look after itself with updates but with a small risk of malicious attack.

Turns out performing OTA updates the way Tesla do is only really legal in the good old USA and Canada. Perform a software update to the brake system OTA anywhere else in the world will render the whole car in breach of it's 'type approval':
https://www.thedrive.com/tech/26679/why-havent-over-the-air-updates-taken-over-the-auto-industry

'USB or SD card rely on the user to actively monitor and do the updates', or, if you use your imagination, the dealer could notify the customer via email, text message, phone call, post or carrier pigeon! they could even send a direct link to the download for their particular model. It really isn't that difficult.
 
Turns out performing OTA updates the way Tesla do is only really legal in the good old USA and Canada. Perform a software update to the brake system OTA anywhere else in the world will render the whole car in breach of it's 'type approval':
https://www.thedrive.com/tech/26679/why-havent-over-the-air-updates-taken-over-the-auto-industry

'USB or SD card rely on the user to actively monitor and do the updates', or, if you use your imagination, the dealer could notify the customer via email, text message, phone call, post or carrier pigeon! they could even send a direct link to the download for their particular model. It really isn't that difficult.
Thanks for that, that's an interesting read. So Tesla may be breaking the current type approval laws by OTA updates, but other auto makers don't grass because they also want to do the same. Looks like it's another case of legislation lagging behind what's possible.

Place a filter over the tailpipe and you won't get any pollution.
What is this magical filter to make cars zero pollution? Why isn't all ICE cars made with it?
 
Thanks for that, that's an interesting read. So Tesla may be breaking the current type approval laws by OTA updates, but other auto makers don't grass because they also want to do the same. Looks like it's another case of legislation lagging behind what's possible.


What is this magical filter to make cars zero pollution? Why isn't all ICE cars made with it?

If the OTE update is merely just an upgrade I doubt there would be much of a problem, but if it is to rectify a fault it really ought to be done by a dealership.
Nothing magical about the filter.
They are only used when driving a vehicle into a garage workshop or if an engine needs to be left running in a confined space. They would become blocked if used all the time.
 
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Point taken on guide dogs. I didn't realise dogs only rely upon engine noise. But as you say, they can be trained to spot cars.

Remember back when motor cars were first introduced, a man with red flag had to be walking in front? The noise is like that, a relic to make the transition feel slower.

Engine noise doesn't just work for the blind and guide dogs, it works for all sighted people who aren't deaf. It gives an early indication of approaching vehicles, gives an idea of whether a vehicle is accelerating or slowing down.
 
- Inherent design flaw in the new update. This fault usually occurs in areas of the software that had been changed, so hopefully the company have extensively tested the change before rolling out to the public.
I'm guessing you don't write software for a living?
I do, have done for about 30 years and none of the s/w I have ever been involved in, be it what I wrote, my team wrote or the vendor wrote behaves in the real world exactly as it did during extensive and exhaustive testing.
Still, let's all hope (again) that Tesla have got it right.
Hope seems to be a common theme here.
 
I'm guessing you don't write software for a living?
I do, have done for about 30 years and none of the s/w I have ever been involved in, be it what I wrote, my team wrote or the vendor wrote behaves in the real world exactly as it did during extensive and exhaustive testing.
Still, let's all hope (again) that Tesla have got it right.
Hope seems to be a common theme here.
I am sure Tesla got plenty of extensive and exhaustive testing done in the few days they had between the China car fire and issuing the battery management software update. ;)
 
I'm guessing you don't write software for a living?
I do, have done for about 30 years and none of the s/w I have ever been involved in, be it what I wrote, my team wrote or the vendor wrote behaves in the real world exactly as it did during extensive and exhaustive testing.
Still, let's all hope (again) that Tesla have got it right.
Hope seems to be a common theme here.
The saying goes: No plan survives first contact with the enemy.

We "hope" because we don't have insider knowledge. To say otherwise is foolish, and at danger of being ignored as another one of very biased opinions or hidden agenda. Tesla is already a lot more transparent than other auto manufacturers: their pricing is crystal clear, no dealership obscuring the true unit price; their fixes are well documented in the change log, doesn't hide behind marketing talk (case in point); their vehicle never had different emissions between lab tests and real world ;)
 
In what way is that quote remotely relevant? :thinking:
*sigh* Let me explain: The end user always find ways to use the software differently to how you've tested, hence software behaving differently in the real world. Similar to how battles often doesn't play out as planned.

Hint, I'm agreeing with him.

You've "like"d Mat's post tells me you knew what he was talking about. But your head scratch tells me otherwise........ or you are just picking on me for no good reason?
 
or you are just picking on me for no good reason?
Not picking on you but your previous contributions incline me to assume the worst of any ambiguous statement.
 
The saying goes: No plan survives first contact with the enemy.

We "hope" because we don't have insider knowledge. To say otherwise is foolish, and at danger of being ignored as another one of very biased opinions or hidden agenda. Tesla is already a lot more transparent than other auto manufacturers: their pricing is crystal clear, no dealership obscuring the true unit price; their fixes are well documented in the change log, doesn't hide behind marketing talk (case in point); their vehicle never had different emissions between lab tests and real world ;)
Insider knowledge isn't required to know a software update a matter of days after a major fault is nothing but a sticking plaster. It needs extensive testing to prove it will work and as I said before it also needs to be proved it will fix other batteries already in the process of failing in the same way. To think otherwise, you are just showing how truly naive you are and total lack of experience in such matters.
Tesla are not crystal clear in their pricing, not for the first time they have been found to be using the wrong figures.
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...ARAB&usg=AOvVaw0YEMaU5-WsjnlydPndEmAP&ampcf=1

Vehicle emissions lab tests are designated by government bodies as are WLTP tests. It isn't the fault of manufacturers if the figures differ unless of course they tests are cheated like VAG were found to have done.
 
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Insider knowledge isn't required to know a software update a matter of days after a major fault is nothing but a sticking plaster. It needs extensive testing to prove it will work and as I said before it also needs to be proved it will fix other batteries already in the process of failing in the same way. To think otherwise, you are just showing how truly naive you are and total lack of experience in such matters.
Tesla are not crystal clear in their pricing, not for the first time they have been found to be using the wrong figures.
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...ARAB&usg=AOvVaw0YEMaU5-WsjnlydPndEmAP&ampcf=1
Fuel saving plays a huge role in overall monthly cost of the vehicle though. Besides, I've never had problem finding out the cost of vehicle, it's only a few mouse clicks. Whereas to find the best price of a dealership car (new or old), you have to talk to the slimy sales person. You might get a different deal depending on which side of the bed he woke up in.

Please do provide source for the bold statement, or stop scaremongering with that baseless assumption.
 
Fuel saving plays a huge role in overall monthly cost of the vehicle though. Besides, I've never had problem finding out the cost of vehicle, it's only a few mouse clicks. Whereas to find the best price of a dealership car (new or old), you have to talk to the slimy sales person. You might get a different deal depending on which side of the bed he woke up in.

Please do provide source for the bold statement, or stop scaremongering with that baseless assumption.
So just pay full price like you would with a Tesla. Most dealerships display deals on their websites so you don't have to haggle.
Stop with the baseless assumption bull. It isn't scaremongering, it is basic fault finding and rectification. You obviously have no experience about it and you are way out of your depth on the subject. Just accept it as fact, it is the basic measures Tesla should be carrying out and to do so, they need to recall the cars.
Bit your excuse is, they are the game changer, the industry disrupter, the future and they can rewrite the rule book. And you wonder why people attack Tesla, neither them nor you have a clue.
As they said on Top Gear on Sunday, Tesla cars will disappear into obscurity and they will just be a battery manufacturer.
 
More information on why diesel needs to die a quick death

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-48723302

Air pollution: Trial M4 50mph limits made permanent

The High Court had ordered ministers to act after they failed to meet EU targets on air pollution.
The Welsh Government has now confirmed the restrictions will stay permanently.
The 50mph limits are at the M4 Port Talbot, M4 Newport, A470 Pontypridd, A483 Wrexham and A494 Deeside.
A Welsh Government spokesman said nitrogen dioxide levels were above legal limits and "must be reduced".
I thought the speed limit has always been 50 past Port Talbot?
 
Stop with the baseless assumption bull. It isn't scaremongering, it is basic fault finding and rectification. You obviously have no experience about it and you are way out of your depth on the subject. Just accept it as fact, it is the basic measures Tesla should be carrying out and to do so, they need to recall the cars.
Bit your excuse is, they are the game changer, the industry disrupter, the future and they can rewrite the rule book. And you wonder why people attack Tesla, neither them nor you have a clue.
As they said on Top Gear on Sunday, Tesla cars will disappear into obscurity and they will just be a battery manufacturer.
Alright, if you say so, Mr Expert. No one can question your claims, I'm so sorry.
:rolleyes:

When Tesla becomes a battery manufacturer, vast majority of the world will be driving zero emissions vehicle. That's a win for Tesla's original mission.

So you did watch Top Gear: Tesla Model 3 wipe the floor with all other cars. They had to cheat by double drag distance to 1/2 mile race to give ICE cars a slight chance. How £50k Model 3 performance is offering similar performance to specific cars at their own tasks (C63s at £66k for drag race, Alfa Giulia for £59k for track). How the ICE cars only managing to start catching up at 120+ mph, not a speed useful outside of driving straight line on the track. Model 3 is “An AK47 Disguised As A Butter Knife”

Oh no, sorry, they must be wrong. Anyone think Tesla make good cars must be wrong........ but you just said you agree with them........ I'm confused...... :wacky:
 
Point taken on guide dogs. I didn't realise dogs only rely upon engine noise. But as you say, they can be trained to spot cars. I do wonder how dogs and blind people do with Rolls Royce and their famously silent engines.

Remember back when motor cars were first introduced, a man with red flag had to be walking in front? The noise is like that, a relic to make the transition feel slower.

As a motorcyclist in the past, one of the most effective ways to make a bike safer to ride was to make it noisy* - all sorts of apparently normal people would suddenly realise there was another vehicle nearby where they would otherwise have been quite unaware. Making vehicles very quiet may be good for some environments, but is also quite dangerous to the general populace.

*Open racing exhausts sound wonderful, though not so much at 2am.
 
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