Cokin P Filter Help for a landscape TOG!

captures.in.time

captures.in.time

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Hi all

Up to now I have only invested in the following two Cokin P filters and to be honest in the past two years hardly used them.

121m ND grad
and a P026 warm up

I am not a TOG who really likes to use filters more than for basic image control... I.e... im not really into to many wild and wackey effects or colours. I just want a few of the basics to enhance my shots. I should add I do have a circular polariser which I do use alot... Im talking square P filters here.

I guess my first question is... I was thinking of buying a 121 ND Grad... this is slightly darker than the 121M I have... but can any one tell me how much? Is it 1 Stop... In fact can anyone tell me how much of an effect the one I have the 121M has for starters?

Also is there any other filters I should think about buying which will 'naturaly' enhance my photography?

Thanks for reading!

M
 
Cokin should be able to tell you the difference on their site - did you look? Its likely to be 1 or 2 stops difference but without the specifics I can't say.

I would advise not buying any more Cokin filters though - get Hitech filters - these are much better than Cokin which are prone to colour casts.
 
Another option is to blend multiple exposures in software if you're able. Only thing you'll need then are a polariser and ND to allow slower shutter speeds. Easy then.
 
puddleduck said:
Cokin should be able to tell you the difference on their site - did you look? Its likely to be 1 or 2 stops difference but without the specifics I can't say.

I would advise not buying any more Cokin filters though - get Hitech filters - these are much better than Cokin which are prone to colour casts.
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I tryed but there was some script error with the site and a stupid box poped up every second even though you pressed cancel got so annoying I gave up...

Im surprised I always thought cokin where one of the best!
 
Can also highly recommend the hitechs and I used them quite nicely for the first time properly when on hols last week (very bright skies to match with darker foregrounds) and I was quite pleased with some of the results e.g. http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=122429

I am pretty sure I would never have been able to get these types of shot without the use of the filters though so wouldn't be out and about without them now!
 
nictry said:
I am pretty sure I would never have been able to get these types of shot without the use of the filters though so wouldn't be out and about without them now!
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really? so you couldn't expose for the sky and expose for the foreground and blend in 'shop? perhaps with a far better result as you could adapt for the circumstances rather than being restricted by the filters in your pocket?
 
walls said:
really? so you couldn't expose for the sky and expose for the foreground and blend in 'shop? perhaps with a far better result as you could adapt for the circumstances rather than being restricted by the filters in your pocket?
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TBH my preference is to try and get the shot right in camera, I am not great with PP and my skills are limited to say the least, I always found I was blowing the sky no matter how much I played with exposure in camera and using the filters (mainly the ND Grads) have made my 'keeper' rates much higher. I am sure others prefer the non filter approach, for me I am glad I invested a few quid in some :thumbs:
 
fair do's, but I still struggle with the idea that filters are the best option if you have invested in photoshop or the like. You pay for expensive glass only to put cheaper glass/plastic in front of your lens and are restricted largely by linear differences in contrast. Don't get me wrong, I know little about landscape photograpy so I'd like to be proved wrong, but surely extracting the best exposure for every part of the image would result in a better image, something that can't be achieved by filters in circumstances other than seascapes or the like.
 
walls said:
really? so you couldn't expose for the sky and expose for the foreground and blend in 'shop? perhaps with a far better result as you could adapt for the circumstances rather than being restricted by the filters in your pocket?
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Photoshop = £400
ND Grad = £10

Time saving not ****ing around on a PC = priceless
 
puddleduck said:
Photoshop = £400
ND Grad = £10

Time saving not ****ing around on a PC = priceless
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dic***g around in the dark making sure your ND is level with the horizon for the few minutes of glorious light seems the best way of ****ing a shot. Then having to correct the white balance in your £400 photoshop seems like a genius idea.
 
walls said:
dic***g around in the dark making sure your ND is level with the horizon for the few minutes of glorious light seems the best way of ****ing a shot. Then having to correct the white balance in your £400 photoshop seems like a genius idea.
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Just a head's up, you don't need to level an ND :shrug:
 
walls said:
dic***g around in the dark making sure your ND is level with the horizon for the few minutes of glorious light seems the best way of ****ing a shot. Then having to correct the white balance in your £400 photoshop seems like a genius idea.
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An even more genius idea would be to just use your Depth of Field preview button on your camera, and its ridiculously easy to align a grad.

Sorry you need to **** about but that button is ideal for this sort of thing.
 
complete waste of money and a faff in my opinion, when most people who own a digital camera, already have the tools to do the same/better job
 
OMG... I cant believe you guys are almost having an argument on on internet forum... calm down.

Im as the guy who took the seascapes on holiday... I prefer not to have to do any more than a bit sharpening and cropping in photo shop... Im sure im missing out on alot... but creating an image on a computer is not really what im about... in fact tbh I cant be bothered half the time doing anything bar batch processing my raws... maybe it comes from the fact that up to a year ago and for 20 before that I was a film TOG... I know what alot of you guys go on about makes sens to you... but often think some of you should get out with an old fully manual film camera and remeber the essence of real photography... Its to get out there and work with the situation you are in... not not worry about it cause you can sort in in photoshop...

OK I'm a bit idealistic there... but thats just my view on my hobby and not saying any of yours is wrong either...

Anyway... does anyone have anything to add on my actual question...

M
 
markelliot said:
Im sure im missing out on alot... but creating an image on a computer is not really what im about... in fact tbh I cant be bothered half the time doing anything bar batch processing my raws... maybe it comes from the fact that up to a year ago and for 20 before that I was a film TOG.
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In that case ignore Walls and get some HiTech's - they are very good and a complete set will come to under £30. I prefer to do it in-camera too, so I can relate 100%.

But ditch the Cokin filters. The holders are fine, and you can use HiTech's in them no problem.
 
markelliot said:
OMG... I cant believe you guys are almost having an argument on on internet forum... calm down.

Im as the guy who took the seascapes on holiday... I prefer not to have to do any more than a bit sharpening and cropping in photo shop... Im sure im missing out on alot... but creating an image on a computer is not really what im about... in fact tbh I cant be bothered half the time doing anything bar batch processing my raws... maybe it comes from the fact that up to a year ago and for 20 before that I was a film TOG... I know what alot of you guys go on about makes sens to you... but often think some of you should get out with an old fully manual film camera and remeber the essence of real photography... Its to get out there and work with the situation you are in... not not worry about it cause you can sort in in photoshop...

OK I'm a bit idealistic there... but thats just my view on my hobby and not saying any of yours is wrong either...

Anyway... does anyone have anything to add on my actual question...

M
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Well said, my man.....

Now what was the question? Ah yes, the hardy annual that is ND grads. Guess who's been listening to Gardeners Question Time....?

I can't say about Cokins but they do get a bit of a bad press. In my opinion see if you can afford a better make - Lee perhaps, or Hitech if you believe what's said here. Get a two-stop hard grad to start with, and then perhaps a 1-stop hard. Use either as well as your polariser and you can get great results. You could combine both grads to get a 3-stop filter in an emergency.

Its not necessary to use a holder. If you've got the camera on a tripod its easy to just hold the grad gently against the rim of the lens. In my opinion using a holder and adaptors is just too much fiddling around.
 
markelliot said:
OMG... I cant believe you guys are almost having an argument on on internet forum... calm down.

M
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OMG \o/

It's not an argument so you can relax. The point is, unless you're using ND grads for seascapes you are not getting it right in camera full stop. The only way to get it right is to take multiple exposures of the different parts of your scene and blend them. It's not that hard to understand.
 
walls said:
OMG \o/

It's not an argument so you can relax. The point is, unless you're using ND grads for seascapes you are not getting it right in camera full stop. The only way to get it right is to take multiple exposures of the different parts of your scene and blend them. It's not that hard to understand.
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I've had quite a lot of success using ND grads on landscapes. It is possible with care.
 
puddleduck said:
In that case ignore Walls and get some HiTech's - they are very good and a complete set will come to under £30. I prefer to do it in-camera too, so I can relate 100%.

But ditch the Cokin filters. The holders are fine, and you can use HiTech's in them no problem.
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Just to clarify... The HiTechs fit with a cokin P filter holder?

I'll have a look at them today!

Mark
 
Yes, they fit very well.
 
One of the problems I find with mulitiple exposures is that it does not simply capture that one moment in time. Movement becomes an issue.
 
I own the Cokin ND grads too but rarely use them...I much prefer trying to catch the "ideal" lighting, great thing about this method is that you get to spend a lot more time in the open air and a lot less sat at a PC !!

Simon
 
walls said:
OMG \o/

It's not an argument so you can relax. The point is, unless you're using ND grads for seascapes you are not getting it right in camera full stop. The only way to get it right is to take multiple exposures of the different parts of your scene and blend them. It's not that hard to understand.
Click to expand...

You've just hit on the very thing that confuses me with these grad filters :thinking:. What if (as in the case of those 'palm tree on the beach' shots in the earlier links) you've got foreground elements, which stick up above the horizon - won't they be partially under-exposed and then how can you avoid PPing :shrug:?

As you can tell ;), I've never used any grad filters before, but am thinking about trying some. Would be great to see some unbiased A/B, 'with/without' comparisons (i.e. not from a manufacturers website), if anyone has any :naughty:!?
 
Naboo32 said:
You've just hit on the very thing that confuses me with these grad filters :thinking:. What if (as in the case of those 'palm tree on the beach' shots in the earlier links) you've got foreground elements, which stick up above the horizon - won't they be partially under-exposed and then how can you avoid PPing :shrug:?

As you can tell ;), I've never used any grad filters before, but am thinking about trying some. Would be great to see some unbiased A/B, 'with/without' comparisons (i.e. not from a manufacturers website), if anyone has any :naughty:!?
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Perhaps a palm tree on the beach wouldn't be an ideal image for a ND grad. But you can get away with it on less extreme examples especially with a 1stop grad (and possibly a soft grad...but I've never used one of those). A mountain top, for example, could look just a little better with a hint of darkness outlining it.

Think of a palm tree on a beach, though.... which way up would you use your grad filter?
 
I'd use it upside down grey to the sand as everyone knows the 2 stop rule for sand and snow surely!

M
 
markelliot said:
I'd use it upside down grey to the sand as everyone knows the 2 stop rule for sand and snow surely!

M
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Not everyone....

You'd probably want to use your meter (spot if you've got it) to see how much the exposure for one differs from the other. Possibly not much in it, or if its really white sand use the filter upside down - as suggested.
 
Naboo32 said:
This is one of the pics that I was referring to in my post. I would have thought that the clouds represent the greatest threat of burn-out, in this one :|!?

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3627/3385182061_7edb377468_o.jpg

Not sure how an ND grad filter really helps here :shrug:.
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...they can't help and in fact ND grads often make simple scenes look odd, darkening mountain tops etc. Sunsets/sunrises are also problematic as the dynamic range often can't be covered/compensated for by grads so it becomes a compromise. Much more logical and I would say correct, is to expose for different parts of the scene.
 
walls said:
...they can't help and in fact ND grads often make simple scenes look odd, darkening mountain tops etc. Sunsets/sunrises are also problematic as the dynamic range often can't be covered/compensated for by grads so it becomes a comprimise. Much more logical and I would say correct, is to expose for different parts of the scene.
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Not sure how you come to that conclusion from the scene I took, the grad was aligned with the shoreline, the sun itself was shaded on the left (as you look at it) side of the frame hence the darkening (otherwise the grad would have been half way across and half way up too?!?!?! Can't say I have ever seen a filter like that before?
 
David Noton hasn't done too badly from using ND grads now and then...
 
walls said:
no idea what you're on about
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Your argument is that by using a grad it will incorrectly darken areas of the scene ie 'mountain tops' you have referred to the image I took earlier in this thread and my point is that the 'darkened areas' are the sky across the frame (where the grad was in use) and the left side of the image which is caused by the sun being partly shaded. Therefore I am not clear what 'incorrect exposure' you are referring to in the image linked to?
 
the really dark area of the sky was there in real life? I go outside quite alot and I've never seen that effect...well captured
 
walls said:
the really dark area of the sky was there in real life? I go outside quite alot and I've never seen that effect...well captured
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TBH I am a bit bored of your high and mighty know it all attitude :shake: You are obviously the worlds best photographer and know everything there is to know about photography, why not go write a book and make lots of money and stop whining about what you do and how people should do what you do and not what others recommend? I enjoy photography and try and learn from likeminded and helpful people on these, and forums like them, people like you are a pain in the **** and do nothing to add value to discussions, I think the word most commonly used is trolling, why not go elsewhere to do it?
 
nictry said:
TBH I am a bit bored of your high and mighty know it all attitude :shake: You are obviously the worlds best photographer and know everything there is to know about photography, why not go write a book and make lots of money and stop whining about what you do and how people should do what you do and not what others recommend? I enjoy photography and try and learn from likeminded and helpful people on these, and forums like them, people like you are a pain in the **** and do nothing to add value to discussions, I think the word most commonly used is trolling, why not go elsewhere to do it?
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and breathe...read the thread. I was suggesting that for scenes like yours, grads are not helpful. Just because a magazine had an article on grads, doesn't mean for your landcape they're going to work. A lot of the time they don't work and as we all use software to varying degrees, there is a much better, no cost solution. The retort is that there are many great landscape photographers that use grads...well duh! :clap:

Perhaps you need to go and eat a calippo and calm down...and by the way, my pictures are pretty carp but I bet I could take a better picture of a palm tree in full sun :D ...in out...in out...shake it all about :D
 
Well, it's been an "interesting" discussion ;), but I don't think that I'm any the wiser. Still, having seen how relatively affordable these HiTech ND grads are, I've ordered up a set and will go "outside" (might bump into walls out there, who knows :D) and try it for myself :).

I'm sure that there's more than one way to skin the old 'exposure cat' :). Filters or HDR PPing :shrug: - Personally, I've seen good results from both methods on here.
 
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