Could lenses become the camera?

[ShinySideUp]

While the shop guy was checking my trade-in cameras for, well, whatever they check them for, I started looking at a large display of Sony mirrorless that were on the table. I noticed that the lenses were quite small but also that the cameras were really quite dinky. Later, that got me thinking about how small a camera could go and if there would come a time when you didn't change lenses as such, but attached a sensor to a lens. I was thinking that all the controls could be put in the lens body and all you had to add was a very small and thin box containing the sensor. This would have the advantage of being able to choose a lens from any manufacturer and just attach your own sensor because all the controls would be on the lens itself and the viewfinder on the rear of the sensor. I suppose it might be hard to hold though.

Just thinking out loud really.

 

[Box Brownie]

Not quite what you are describing but the Olympus Air 01 might be of interest?

Here is Robin Wong having a look and try out of one

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNttn6SpF-Y

 

[biju]

Your idea of attaching a sensor to a lens is very interesting. It would allow for more flexibility in terms of choosing lenses, and it would also make cameras smaller and more portable. However, I think a few challenges would need to be overcome before this concept becomes a reality.

One challenge is that the sensor must be very small to fit inside the lens. This would likely limit the image quality that could be achieved. Another challenge is that the lens would need to be very sturdy to support the sensor's weight. This could make the lens more expensive and difficult to manufacture.

Despite these challenges, I think your idea has a lot of potential. It would be great to see a camera system that is as flexible and portable as you have described. If this concept were to be developed, it would be very popular with photographers.

 

[SFTPhotography]

Problem is you have to achieve a distance from the sensor to the rear lens element to attain a sharp image. A lens is designed to project an image at a set distance. With adapaters etc this could work, but in essence just makes a small body.

 

[fujilover]

i just cant see them being any good, the smaller the controls the more annoying and fiddly they are with everything hidden in settings instead of dedicated buttons.

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

The camera has always been a box to hold the sensor to the lens. As technology moved on, the sensor became smaller so the box holding it became smaller.

Lenses were originally separate from the camera but then people came along who fixed the lens and the camera permanently together, so the whole became just what you've described: a lens with a permanently fixed sensor. Then people decided it would be more to their taste to return to the original concept of a box holding the sensor that attaches to the lens.

 

[sirch]

I would guess that it could be done now but it is about marketing - the "it's not a proper camera" brigade would write it off as a toy. That Olympus air that @Box Brownie posted is very interesting

 

[stevelmx5]

Sony made a brand specific version of this in 2014 with the QX1 (20mp crop sensor) and QX10 (Rx100 sensor)

Buy ILCE-QX1 Lens-Style Camera with 20.1MP Sensor | Body + 16-50mm Power Zoom Lens | Sony Store Online | Sony UK

Pro-quality imaging comes to your smartphone

www.sony.co.uk

There was basically a phone clip so you would use your mobile as the display/control, using the Sony PlayMemories app. They were essentially the normal camera with the screen removed. I don't think they were massively successful as it just made the whole unit less ergonomic, unless you tripod-mounted the sensor/lens.

 

[ancient_mariner]

Sony made a brand specific version of this in 2014 with the QX1 (20mp crop sensor) and QX10 (Rx100 sensor)

Buy ILCE-QX1 Lens-Style Camera with 20.1MP Sensor | Body + 16-50mm Power Zoom Lens | Sony Store Online | Sony UK

Pro-quality imaging comes to your smartphone

www.sony.co.uk

There was basically a phone clip so you would use your mobile as the display/control, using the Sony PlayMemories app. They were essentially the normal camera with the screen removed. I don't think they were massively successful as it just made the whole unit less ergonomic, unless you tripod-mounted the sensor/lens.

I immediately thought of this too. IIRC they were not a low cost option despite being stripped down, and the size novelty was probably not enough to generate sales.

 

[Box Brownie]

The Olympus Air 01 and the Sony D2c appear to be the same concept, though spec differences.......looks like neither found a market!

But perhaps are now sought after as collectables?

 

[woof woof]

Aren't people looking into flat lenses now? I can't remember much about it but other people may remember the articles that came out some time ago. So, in the future we could have near enough flat lenses.

Camera wise back when I had a Canon 5D I thought I'd never want a better camera but my Sony A7 just crushed the 5D in so many ways one of which is dynamic range. Talking of small size and dynamic range, I have a number of Micro Four Thirds cameras and all of them are much smaller than that 5D and all of them have a higher dynamic range even the truly tiny Panasonic GM5. Also, my TZ100 which is a 1" sensor compact camera also has a higher DR than that old Canon. DR isn't everything, but it helps.

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

Aren't people looking into flat lenses now?

There's a mention of that, here: https://petapixel.com/2020/03/16/scientists-create-focus-free-camera-using-an-ultra-flat-lens/

 

[woof woof]

There's a mention of that, here: https://petapixel.com/2020/03/16/scientists-create-focus-free-camera-using-an-ultra-flat-lens/

That's not it. What I was thinking about had something to do with nano tech but I can't remember the details. Very small particles which realign. Something like that.

Googling, this was near the top...

Flat lenses enabled by Nanotechnology to replace lenses in devices, from microscopes to displays and cameras in cell phones - International Defense Security & Technology

A classical lens made of plastic or glass has a curved shape that bends the path of incoming light t

idstch.com

 

[Craikeybaby]

It sounds like Apple are investigating "periscope" lenses for a future iPhone - they will allow greater magnification, without protruding from the body.

I expect that cameras in smart glasses will be the next big thing.

 

[RichardC27]

It sounds like Apple are investigating "periscope" lenses for a future iPhone - they will allow greater magnification, without protruding from the body.

I expect that cameras in smart glasses will be the next big thing.

Several Android phones already have these. The 10X zoom on the Galaxy S22 and S23 Ultras is a periscope zoom lens. I think the next thing in phones will be actual adjustable zoom lenses, and there is at least one Chinese Android phone with a 1" sensor and aperture you can change between f/1.8 and f/4. Most high end phones now allow Raw image capture as well, so the lines between phones and compact cameras are becoming rather blurred.

 

[Mintchocs]

Pentax tried a similar concept.

Ricoh GXR Camera Review | Sans Mirror | Thom Hogan

Review of the Ricoh GXR mirrorless camera

www.sansmirror.com

 

[seaodyssey]

Where would you put the battery, on a bulge in the lens, behind the sensor.

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

I suppose you could argue that Canon's Powershot Zoom is a nod in the direction of Martin's musing.

It's basically a monocular with a sensor between the lens and the eyepiece. There's no way it's a photographer's tool but rather a way of recording something at a distance for further study. The image recording has a long way to go before it will replace something like a travel zoom.

 

[ShinySideUp]

Looking at some of the pictures here, it would appear that my thoughts are already concrete. That Sony QX1 is almost exactly as I imagined the idea except that the sensor would be, say, a similar size to an SD card, perhaps a little thicker so as to support an actual SD card as storage, and would slide out of a retainer and then moved, if desired, to a different lens.

It seems there is nothing new in this world that someone, somewhere, has already made; inventors must pull their hair out in frustration.

 

[stevelmx5]

Looking at some of the pictures here, it would appear that my thoughts are already concrete. That Sony QX1 is almost exactly as I imagined the idea except that the sensor would be, say, a similar size to an SD card, perhaps a little thicker so as to support an actual SD card as storage, and would slide out of a retainer and then moved, if desired, to a different lens.

It seems there is nothing new in this world that someone, somewhere, has already made; inventors must pull their hair out in frustration.

The Sony QX units already had MicroSD/Sony Memory Stick holders built in, so images were stored direct to those. They could also be transferred to a mobile phone using the Sony Play Memories App (as I do from my A7 to iPhone). The QX unit was basically the lens mount/sensor/processor/memory slots from their full cameras.

Help Guide | Inserting a memory card

You can shoot images after inserting a memory card in the camera.

helpguide.sony.net

 

[soupdragon]

In engineering terms a lens cannot become a camera. They are two separate entities.
Whilst you can have a camera without a lens, a lens on its own is quite simply a lens.

 

[ShinySideUp]

In engineering terms a lens cannot become a camera. They are two separate entities.
Whilst you can have a camera without a lens, a lens on its own is quite simply a lens.

Au contraire, it's not a camera if it doesn't have a lens, it's just a light-sensitive box, no more use as an image-gathering device than a piece of photographic paper; even a pinhole camera has a lens, it just doesn't have any glass in it.

 

[benc98]

You can get a version of the 28mm Summilux with a camera fused to the back of it

 

[ancient_mariner]

I noticed that the lenses were quite small but also that the cameras were really quite dinky.

Au contraire, it's not a camera if it doesn't have a lens, it's just a light-sensitive box,

At the start of the thread you seemed to have a different view.

 

[sphexx]

At the start of the thread you seemed to have a different view.

I doubt the whole idea. I’ve long thought that cameras will eventually be something tike the present phone cams (in one sense they already are since those are the most numerous in general use) with a viewfinder, grip and many lenses using software to create results by combining their output. I think there have already been a few examples.

I remember reading somewhere (no ref) that Zeiss say it’s very easy to produce good small plastic lenses compared with making glass ones.

 

[ShinySideUp]

At the start of the thread you seemed to have a different view.

Don't think so. Perhaps the terms 'camera' and 'lens' are being seen as two different things when in fact whatever constitutes a camera and whatever constitutes a lens combine to make an image capture device. I was merely postulating the removal of the big box at the rear of the 'image capturing device' and combining it with the front bit of said device so as to make said device smaller, lighter and more flexible in use. Cameras only look like cameras because that's the way they've almost always looked, I've just put forward an alternative appearance for the 'image capture device'.

Image capture device is such a convoluted term, let's say, just for now, we call it a camera

Oh, and if we want to get really into the semantics, 'camera' means a vault or vaulted chamber and gave rise to the name of the 'camera obscura' or 'dark chamber'. We also have 'in camera', literally 'in room' (or vault) and used as a legal term to indicate that evidence is given behind closed doors because of the sensitive nature of said evidence and has absolutely nothing to do with photography (unless said evidence is photographic of course).

 

[ancient_mariner]

Cameras only look like cameras because that's the way they've almost always looked, I've just put forward an alternative appearance for the 'image capture device'.

Indeed.

They all look exactly alike.


I *think* I know what you're trying to say, but unfortunately you don't seem to be saying it.

 

[ShinySideUp]

Still largely the same thing, glass at the front, box at the back...even this:

In all my subsequent posts here, I'm not trying to defend my position on the original post, indeed, there is no position to defend as I was merely putting forward an idea for a theoretical device for discussion. It exists, could exist or can't exist, it's just an idea, nothing more.

 

[soupdragon]

Au contraire, it's not a camera if it doesn't have a lens, it's just a light-sensitive box, no more use as an image-gathering device than a piece of photographic paper; even a pinhole camera has a lens, it just doesn't have any glass in it.

Camera obscura, pin hole camera?
These do not have lenses only apertures.

 

[Mozthecat]

i just cant see them being any good, the smaller the controls the more annoying and fiddly they are with everything hidden in settings instead of dedicated buttons.

I went to a dusk shoot the night before Abingdon Airshow last weekend. I was surprised how many people (all under 30 at a guess) were using their phones to control settings and review images via apps.

Must admit watching them juggling the two devices, whilst simply folding out my screen, seemed slightly odd to me.

 

[sphexx]

Camera obscura, pin hole camera?
These do not have lenses only apertures.

I suspect a pinhole could be described as a lens in any definition that doesn‘t mention glass (or plastic nowadays).

 

[Ed Sutton]

Cameras only look like cameras because that's the way they've almost always looked,

Indeed.

They all look exactly alike.

This one looks like all those above too.

Nikon Coolpix 950 Review

Why would this be so? For people new to the digital camera market this behaviour probably seems a little extreme. The excitement around the 950 grew up from the reputation of the Nikon Coolpix 900s (also known as the E910 in Japan), this very fine camera opened peoples eyes to the abilities of...

www.dpreview.com

 

[droj]

I suspect a pinhole could be described as a lens in any definition that doesn‘t mention glass (or plastic nowadays).

On the contrary, I assume that a lens must exhibit lenticularity ... ;-).

 

[soupdragon]

On the contrary, I assume that a lens must exhibit lenticularity ... ;-).

I misread that first time round as testicularity.

 

[LunaCat]

While the shop guy was checking my trade-in cameras for, well, whatever they check them for, I started looking at a large display of Sony mirrorless that were on the table. I noticed that the lenses were quite small but also that the cameras were really quite dinky. Later, that got me thinking about how small a camera could go and if there would come a time when you didn't change lenses as such, but attached a sensor to a lens. I was thinking that all the controls could be put in the lens body and all you had to add was a very small and thin box containing the sensor. This would have the advantage of being able to choose a lens from any manufacturer and just attach your own sensor because all the controls would be on the lens itself and the viewfinder on the rear of the sensor. I suppose it might be hard to hold though.

Just thinking out loud really.

Every lens would have to duplicate stuff that it doesn't currently have. So you would have multiple complex things and one simple thing. Compare that with now where you have one complex thing and multiple simple things. Soooo, no!

 

[droj]

I misread that first time round as testicularity.

A testicle may indeed be somewhat lenticular in shape, but it lacks transparency, so I think the images from your 'test-cam' would be a bit dark ....