Developing Tank Volumes

Barney

Barney

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Wayne
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I currently use a Patterson type tank for small and medium format development. We all know the type

1x 35mm
2x 35mm
1x 120

Each have differing volume requirements for the amount of developer used.

I have been wondering if the development liquid volume is calculated for specific reasons. For instance I have been using 500ml for a single roll of 35mm (for ease of reckoning) and wondered if this volume is providing to much developing agent for a film of that size and I am not getting the benefit of developer exhaustion etc.

Anyone have any thoughts?
 
I've always wondered this myself, unscientifically I assume as the concentration is the same then the film is always in contact with the same amount of developer so it wouldn't make a difference.

I'd agree there won't be as much dev exhaustion as theres plenty to go round in the first place so you first agitation and final agitation may put the same concentration back on the film, lets wait for the chemists to chime in ha.

It may matter for longer dev times and push the highlights a bit further, for short devs it probably would not make a material difference.

I'd also assume manufacturers would be much more specific if it did have an impact. ie. use 290ml only for 1 roll and no more!
 
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If I recall correctly, and it's a very long time since I looked at a Patterson instruction leaflet, the quantities are simply those that will cover the film.

Film developing kit D600 D60_4990.jpg
 
That's what I was hoping, that developer quantity had no effect but at the back of my mind I have a nagging concern that possibly I may be making grain bigger or losing out on accutance effects through the volume of the developing agent
 
In very dilute developers
Like neofin blue the volume is important as the active ingredients actually start to run out before development is completed.
.
The developer takes advantage of this to create an edge sharpening effect much like digital sharpening.
In shadow areas, on the film, the developer is less used up than in the highlight areas, so where those areas meet, the unused developer from the emulsion in the shadow area leeches slightly into the highlight area and continues development. This increases the sharpness of the edges. However for this to work well agitation needs to be reduced to the minimum.

This running out of active ingredients in the solution is more likely to happen with all dilute developers, so volume is an important factor.
You can have too little developer but not too much. So with most dilute developers err on more not less.

Normal strength developer work just fine provided the film spiral is covered with a little to spare, or bubbles might effect the edges of the film.
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
If I recall correctly, and it's a very long time since I looked at a Patterson instruction leaflet, the quantities are simply those that will cover the film.

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That's my understanding too.

However after once not putting enough volume of developer in a tank and the top centimetre of the film not being fully developed I put an extra 25-75ml of ID11 solution ( roughly 25ml for 1 x 135, 75ml for 2 x 120) in the tank for "luck". ID11 is mixed as a litre for "stock" so i can still do 2 x 120 and 1x135 at the same time over 2 tanks if required.

Of course there are no ill effects using more volume of dev on the film but I do get more spillage -I think that's more me being a messy film dever.
 
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auntiemaryscanary said:
That's my understanding too.

However after once not putting enough volume of developer in a tank and the top centimetre of the film not being fully developed I put an extra 25-75ml of ID11 solution ( roughly 25ml for 1 x 135, 75ml for 2 x 120) in the tank for "luck". ID11 is mixed as a litre for "stock" so i can still do 2 x 120 and 1x135 at the same time over 2 tanks if required.

Of course there are no ill effects using more volume of dev on the film but I do get more spillage -I think that's more me being a messy film dever.
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I’ve done this today on a 120 in a Patterson. 500ml just about covers the reel, I think my reel got stuck a bit higher up the centre column and wasn’t dropping back down. Only ever happened once before. I don’t use the Patterson reels. A roll now has a darker edge of a few mm. Mind you, the camera I tested only took 7 shots anyway lol!

Didn’t the Patterson tank used to come with a clip to hold the reel down, similar to the ap tanks?
 
bumper said:
Didn’t the Patterson tank used to come with a clip to hold the reel down, similar to the ap tanks?
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Indeed they did but they seem to disappear very quickly. I can't recall ever using one in sixty years!
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
Indeed they did but they seem to disappear very quickly. I can't recall ever using one in sixty years!
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I could have done with one today. These reels I use fit snugly on the Patterson column and I always push the reels down. I suppose the pressure of the liquids moving through the reel and lubricating it must’ve made it slip. It’s all part of the fun.
 
bumper said:
I could have done with one today. These reels I use fit snugly on the Patterson column and I always push the reels down. I suppose the pressure of the liquids moving through the reel and lubricating it must’ve made it slip. It’s all part of the fun.
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I've not tried it, but I expect that a small rubber band would work in place of a clip. Either one small enough to fit snugly around the centre column, or one that can be twisted a couple of times so it stays tight.
 
FishyFish said:
I've not tried it, but I expect that a small rubber band would work in place of a clip. Either one small enough to fit snugly around the centre column, or one that can be twisted a couple of times so it stays tight.
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I think I might try it. It’s not a major issue, my photos are just for family and other stuff because I like taking photos. Just know it’ll happen on some nice family photos one day.
Not changing to the Patterson reels for 120, hate using them. I always have to put some old film in the reel to get the film on.
 
bumper said:
Not changing to the Patterson reels for 120, hate using them. I always have to put some old film in the reel to get the film on.
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This works flawlessly Dave,

Its a thick piece of plastic cut at width to fit the slots, I used a pop bottle, put a slight bend on the leading 1/2" of the film, rest on the plastic and its straight in every time, easier than 35 mm.


120 reel.JPG


120 reel-2.JPG

Of course you have to pull the plastic out when you are past the ball bearings then rotate as normal.
 
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bumper said:
Great idea Wayne. I’ll pop the plastic nearer the centre so I don’t have to keep removing it. 120 goes nowhere near the centre (y)
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The idea is to help get the film started into the reel spiral grooves (the tricky bit), after that you do not need it at all, pull it out and just ratchet as normal as you would for 35mm.
 
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Barney said:
Barney said:
The idea is to help get the film started into the reel spiral grooves (the tricky bit), after that you do not need it at all, pull it out and just ratchet as normal as you would for 35mm.
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I understood that Wayne. I made a mess of my reply. Meant to say I something about pulling it out from helping load the film then trying to put it in the centre to stop the reel from sliding up. This would mean having a bent section at one end and making a tab on the other that can be unfolded. It’s easier to get an old Patterson clip/elastic bandfor the sliding bit lol!
 
I’m sitting here trying to type with glue in a syringe, attempting to put yarn light seals in the Rollei back that I think I’ve fixed.

I’ve got glue everywhere :ROFLMAO:
 
It just occurred that you might be using a different type spiral Dave, that is a 35mm patterson type opened up to 120
 
bumper said:
I’m sitting here trying to type with glue in a syringe, attempting to put yarn light seals in the Rollei back that I think I’ve fixed.

I’ve got glue everywhere :ROFLMAO:
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Brilliant ! Show us some pics of the fix!
 
Barney said:
It just occurred that you might be using a different type spiral Dave, that is a 35mm patterson type opened up to 120
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I’ve got the Patterson reels that open from 35 to 120. I bought some different reels with a flange built in them , they are really easy to load. I’ve only got 4 of them, if I need an extra one I have to use the Patterson things with old film in the start to get the actual film in. I can’t wait for a reel to dry or bother to dry one, just like to crack on and get the developing out of the way! 35mm is no problem in them but I detest the pat reels for 120.

Don’t know what brand these other reels are but you don’t even have to think about getting film onto them. It almost jumps on by itself :ROFLMAO:
 
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bumper said:
I’ve got the Patterson reels that open from 35 to 120. I bought some different reels with a flange built in them , they are really easy to load. I’ve only got 4 of them, if I need an extra one I have to use the Patterson things with old film in the start to get the actual film in. I can’t wait for a reel to dry or bother to dry one, just like to crack on and get the developing out of the way! 35mm is no problem in them but I detest the pat reels for 120.

Don’t know what brand these other reels are but you don’t even have to think about getting film onto them. It almost jumps on by itself :ROFLMAO:
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show us a picture they sound good, is diameter the same?
 
Barney said:
Brilliant ! Show us some pics of the fix!
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The actual fix of the Rollei was to take the side off and move/force back a metal bar thing that was stopping the counter from working. Won’t bother again, have you seen what’s inside them? Glued the leatherette back on last night once I knew the counter was working again.

Light seals were basically falling apart so just redoing now. It’s taken 4 balls of yarn from eBay to get something close. All of the recommendations online are nowhere near thick enough.
 
bumper said:
The actual fix of the Rollei was to take the side off and move/force back a metal bar thing that was stopping the counter from working. Won’t bother again, have you seen what’s inside them? Glued the leatherette back on last night once I knew the counter was working again.

Light seals were basically falling apart so just redoing now. It’s taken 4 balls of yarn from eBay to get something close. All of the recommendations online are nowhere near thick enough.
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Never seen a Rollei in hand, so to speak, sounds interesting though.
 
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