Digital images from 35 mm colour negatives

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Cheaper? Quite a few cameras with lenses I've got were under £10 and the same lenses are being used by guys (on a forum) using expensive A7r IIs etc and doubt you would see much difference in an 10" X 8" print or even higher.

Medium format is not £10 or anywhere near... Film + processing costs must be running to £50-200 per day alone if you do reasonable amount of work.

10x8" is a small postcard. My typical orders are 24x16" and occasionally beyond 36x24".
 
Medium format is not £10 or anywhere near... Film + processing costs must be running to £50-200 per day alone if you do reasonable amount of work.

10x8" is a small postcard. My typical orders are 24x16" and occasionally beyond 36x24".

Well I was referring to 35mm...h'mm is this a pro ver ordinary amateur view as I'd like to know how many digi guys or filmies have typical orders of 24 X 16 and occasionally 36 X 24" ?
 

Probably right as a 24 X 16 print would be about £25 and on thinking there would quite a few people using even cheap compacts, say of their kids, having a picture on the wall. But there can't be many amateur guys digi or filmies that would have many prints done in one go unless they have a lot of winners.
 
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Work is just an oddly irrelevant thing to throw in the conversation....:)
 
"Digital is Cheap" is a myth.
I have probably £2K's worth of electric picture maker & accouterments in the gadget bag.... could have bought a heck of a lot of film with that, and with a dev tank and enlarger, not had to spend an awful lot to process it! Actually seldom spent any real cash money on any of my film cameras or kit either! Most of them were found in attics or given to me by folk who didn't use them any more, even before wdgetal came along!!
This Digital malarkey has turned my wallet purple, in what I have had to spend to take 'cheap' photos!!!!
 
You can take a photo with your phone?
My daughter told me I could take pictures with mine, but I still haven't found the hole to put the FILM in it!! ;-)

I tried my phone after 4 years, well it takes a pic but can't find where it is saved...at least with film you know where the shots is (y)
 
Medium format is not £10 or anywhere near... Film + processing costs must be running to £50-200 per day alone if you do reasonable amount of work.

10x8" is a small postcard. My typical orders are 24x16" and occasionally beyond 36x24".

To be realistic, any crop sensor digital can easily produce 36x24 prints. A lot of my portrait customers order that size and I've been delivering them since my old Canon 40D.

I shoot both Film and digital and agree with the other sentiments. Digital is a very effective tool for getting the job done but the mechanics of analogue cameras hold more interest to me personally whether the results are equal or not.
 
"Digital is Cheap" is a myth.
I have probably £2K's worth of electric picture maker & accouterments in the gadget bag.... could have bought a heck of a lot of film with that, and with a dev tank and enlarger, not had to spend an awful lot to process it! Actually seldom spent any real cash money on any of my film cameras or kit either! Most of them were found in attics or given to me by folk who didn't use them any more, even before wdgetal came along!!
This Digital malarkey has turned my wallet purple, in what I have had to spend to take 'cheap' photos!!!!


For the average Joe, a roll of 36 will average out at around £10 to buy, post off for D&P and have D&Ped. Your £2,000 would only get you 200 rolls, 7,200 (OK, say 7,400 if you can get 37 exposures per roll) shots. Factor in your time to do your own D&P and you're well over a tenner per roll at NMW! Compared to film, digital IS cheap! Not as satisfying, I'll freely admit but on a cost per shot basis, it's cheaper than fillum.
 
I've been back over the thread but failed to spot how the black and white conversion was done. The original scans as posted seemed reasonable to me, but the only degree of enlargement I could get was the minimal one obtained by clicking on the image, so it's hard to tell. If the black and white conversion enhances the grain effect, then I'd examine the options there to reduce the effect.

On the cost of digital etc., one thing that doesn't seem to be taken into account is the way usage varies according to the camera. I can go to the Scottish highlands for a fortnight and not expose more than 15 or so sheets of 5x4. Given my usage (which is the stuff I'm serious about) I calculated that even with the cost of 5x4 film and processing, my life expectancy isn't great enough to make a top end digital camera with anything near that resolving power economically viable for me. I'm even not sure that my life expectancy at birth was enough :). I did check back on this year's fortnight in the highlands, and found that in contrast I made almost 150 exposures on digital (a7rii to be precise). If I'd used 35mm instead, that would have been £40 on Nod's figures, which is a significant way to the cost of a Sony a7rii (not!). If you don't allow for the capital cost of equipment and only consider running costs, then a digital exposure is free and a film one isn't; on a total cost per shot where camera and film costs are totalled and divided by exposures, it's going to heavily depend on your usage (and how long you wait between camera upgrades!).

But going back on topic again - how was the black and white conversion done, and how much sharpening was done along the way?
 
For the average Joe, a roll of 36 will average out at around £10 to buy, post off for D&P and have D&Ped. Your £2,000 would only get you 200 rolls, 7,200 (OK, say 7,400 if you can get 37 exposures per roll) shots. Factor in your time to do your own D&P and you're well over a tenner per roll at NMW! Compared to film, digital IS cheap! Not as satisfying, I'll freely admit but on a cost per shot basis, it's cheaper than fillum.

200 rolls? It would take me about 10 years to get through that amount, would an expensive digi last that long (or have to be repaired) before you have to buy another one...esp if machine gunning.
 
To be realistic, any crop sensor digital can easily produce 36x24 prints

Digi software fiddles? It would be Interesting using say Ektar with 35mm and using software fiddles what lab can do for a 36 X 24 print ..... to see in comparison.
 
Your £2,000 would only get you 200 rolls, 7,200 (OK, say 7,400 if you can get 37 exposures per roll) shots.
My entire 35mm film archive, most shot in the peak of my enthusiasm over about 10 years, totals only in the order of 30,000 exposures; given the 'average joe', in that era was reported by one of the mags to only shoot 3 films a year, that's almost 10x 'average'... to keep costs in check, I mostly bulk loaded, & Kitchen sinked B&W or Slide, and bought a film scanner in Y2K so I could pack the enlarger away when kids came along!
Chasing turbocharged toddlers about, saw the SLR's less and less used... I found myself running out of hands and hips, and reaching into the 'changing bag' took on a whole new meaning when I pulled out a nappy, rather than a different lens! When, a decade later, their greater 'ranging' alleviated my burden's some what, situational review, prompted stepping into widgetal. 5 years on, auditing the archives, would beg suggestion, that digital has taken off from where I left off with wider driven SLR's for 'Fast Photo'; shooting for convenience, often machine gunning, working 'fast' without so much care and attention; Quantity has gone 'up', 'Quality' probably not.
When the winder equipped OM's were the 'front line' cameras; that the EPM has supplanted; I had {& still have!} a 2nd 'Slow Photo' outfit based around my manual only Sigma Mk1, & M42 primes, with which to get a bit 'precious' with. More demanding to use, begged slower, more considered approach to the job; resulting contribution to the archive is consequently far smaller, and you would think of higher 'quality'.... but I'm somewhat sanguine on the notion; whilst most may be technically superior, crikey did I shoot a lot lot of technically excellent but utterly 'boring' pictures with it!!! Of ALL my camera's, going through the archive suggests that the one camera that delivered the most pictures, and the most I actually still want to look at, is actually my beloved little Oly XA2 compact! Almost all are holiday & family 'snapshots', but they have far more relevance, meaning and interest, and far more of what has come out of that camera over the years has ended up in the albums!!!
Which all sort of begs a conclusion, that the economics, to a certain degree are a little irrelevant; and it's whether you get pictures for it you feel are worth what they have cost you to get...... and brutal review of my archive, I would probably say that for a large bulk of them... errr... no they aren't! AND that spending more money, whether on better camera's or more film, has merely increased the enthusiasm and the gross yield, and given me an awful lot more photos, and consequently more that I appreciate, but which aren't 'so' great that all the money spent to get them was necessarily such great value for money!
Hence the electric-picture-maker's greatest contribution to photography, has simply been through automated ';easement', which includes the necessity of thinking about what sort of film to buy, encouraging more people to take more photo's, and making it easier for more of them, to get 'acceptable' images.

If you calculate the cost by the number of pictures that would make it into the album, rather than the number of pictures that get shot; the economics aren't anywhere near as favorable. Whilst if you ignore that less flattering ratio, and count all the pictures you get from a camera for the price they cost, you still have to take an awful lot of photo's, whether keepers or not', to get a pence per frame rate that starts to give 'truth' to the suggestion.
 
To convert to B&W I have tried several ways for example the basic conversion using MacPhun, black and white adjustment layer and Image - > Adjustments -> Chanel Mixer in Photoshop. There was no need to use sharpening to exacerbate the effect. For the images I get with the scanner I use the work around seems to be to treat the problem as noise in the colour image before converting to B&W.
 
To convert to B&W I have tried several ways for example the basic conversion using MacPhun, black and white adjustment layer and Image - > Adjustments -> Chanel Mixer in Photoshop. There was no need to use sharpening to exacerbate the effect. For the images I get with the scanner I use the work around seems to be to treat the problem as noise in the colour image before converting to B&W.

Have you tried Nik Silver Efex? One of the free Nik plugins after Google bought Nik. I found the options quite good.
 
Which all sort of begs a conclusion, that the economics, to a certain degree are a little irrelevant; and it's whether you get pictures for it you feel are worth what they have cost you to get..


Very true! As an amateur, I don't NEED to take any photos, other than to help my rather poor memory but that hasn't stopped me taking several hundred rolls of film along with severalty thousand d*****l shots. Luckily I can afford to indulge my hobby and it's cheaper than some (wimmin and motorsport!!!)

Most of my expenditure has been on lenses rather than bodies and most of them were bought for the film bodies before I went more d*****l to Fuji.
 
I've been back over the thread but failed to spot how the black and white conversion was done. The original scans as posted seemed reasonable to me, but the only degree of enlargement I could get was the minimal one obtained by clicking on the image, so it's hard to tell. If the black and white conversion enhances the grain effect, then I'd examine the options there to reduce the effect.
Boringly back on topic.... I think Norman has got himself into a bit of a twist over this 'salt & pepper' phenominon, and is convincing himself to look for complicated answers to a fairly simple question.
I tend to agree with you, B&W conversion hasn't been explained, and common 'niggle' to get such effects, and back mining to the nub of the issue.
I would be interested to have a play with the original scan file, and looking at the individual colour separation layers, and possibly manually merging them to composite B&W.
However, I think that the biggest 'issue' between his experience/results with C41 & E6, is probably SIMPLY down to reversal, and viewing larger digi scale crops, making things more obviouse.

Example shot, from negative, is a little 'bright', suggesting that the original capture may have been a tad over exposed, which in a negative, would result in a greater density in the lighter regions, such as the sky, which is where his speckling is more prominent in the B&W conversion, and where the scanner would be struggling with thresholds and likely generating most 'niose'.
Shooting slide, I certainly used to be that much more conscientious to avoid over exposure, and would, if only to saturate colour, deliberately underexpose by 1/3 stop, and most others were similarly diligent; Consequently I would not expect a scan from slide to struggle so much with 'denser' images to start with, and if there were denser regions, due to reversal, those would most often be 'hidden' in less prominent regions of shadow, rather than wide areas of bright sky.

We then have the issue of the contrast shifts when converting colour to B&W, which are less prominent from a slide, but exacerbated by the colour correction filter from colour negative......

Posted as I was composing:
To convert to B&W I have tried several ways for example the basic conversion using MacPhun, black and white adjustment layer and Image - > Adjustments -> Chanel Mixer in Photoshop. There was no need to use sharpening to exacerbate the effect. For the images I get with the scanner I use the work around seems to be to treat the problem as noise in the colour image before converting to B&W.
I think that Is what you mostly have, 'niose'.

In PS, I would look at and play in the undividual RGB layer separations; observed speckling/noise is most prominent in the sky region, which is predominantly blue, so the blue layer sep is likely to be very flat, and the speckling most obvious in the red rep layer, I'd expect to be densest.

It's likely that the green seperation layer, alone may make for a much more pleasant B&W conversion.. effectively replicating the mechanics of having shot on B&W in the first instance with a yellow filter.
Alternatively, adjusting the contrast of the layers individually, and recombining at different opacities as image layers in a B&W image file, could offer a much more pleasant B&W conversion

You may find reversing the image and looking at it in its original negative form, particfularly in the seperations, to be useful for tweeking contrast & brightness etc too.

These aren't work arounds though, I don't think ANY one touch software, can deal with 'everything' and return idealized pictures from any original media, its all looking for the most pleasant end result. end of the day, computer's just a big pocket calculator, it merely crunches numbers, it doesn't know what you are looking at, or have any 'discretion' or 'opinion' on what the numbers its crunching belong to. Tweeking them then is where we have to do our bit that the calculator cant.
 
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Mike, I don't think that I am complicating the issue at all. The fact is that using the hardware and software that I have to scan my old colour negatives there is 'noise' which is not acceptable the complication could arise on what to do about it. I am satisfied that the problem has been identified although its cause may be debatable I will find a a way to give me the B&W images I am happy with using the software that I have on my number cruncher.

I must thank everyone for taking such an interest in this subject, I never expected such a response when I first posed the question.
 
My entire 35mm film archive, most shot in the peak of my enthusiasm over about 10 years, totals only in the order of 30,000 exposures;

Huh...and we tell newbies that using film makes you slow down, get the shot right no need to m\c gun ;)
 
Mike, I don't think that I am complicating the issue at all. The fact is that using the hardware and software that I have to scan my old colour negatives there is 'noise' which is not acceptable the complication could arise on what to do about it. I am satisfied that the problem has been identified although its cause may be debatable I will find a a way to give me the B&W images I am happy with using the software that I have on my number cruncher.

I must thank everyone for taking such an interest in this subject, I never expected such a response when I first posed the question.

There are programs that will clean up your scan a bit e.g. neat image and don't think anyone (other than you) would care after using it, if it looked a bit digital, they would be just pleased to see old photos revived.

I've either used neat image or something similar to see what it was like and I think this was one result:-


AAMOI I used despeckle in Photoshop on this 35mm neg below and if you click on it and magnify to about 30" on your screen..it should give quite a good 30" X 20" print i.e. if the print comes out the same as the screen.
I bought a FTB with Canon 28, 50 and 135 for £10 about 7 years ago and the lens used was the 135mm on a £7 Canon T70...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/31831722@N08/31029968660/in/dateposted-public/
 
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Well I didn't know where to post this but interesting if accurate:-

The Digital Resolution of Film

So how many pixels does it take to describe all the detail we can get from film?

Fuji Velvia 50 is rated to resolve 160 lines per millimeter. This is the finest level of detail it can resolve, at which point its MTF just about hits zero.

Each line will require one light and one dark pixel, or two pixels. Thus it will take about 320 pixels per millimeter to represent what's on Velvia 50.

320 pixels x 320 pixels is 0.1MP per square millimeter.

35mm film is 24 x 36mm, or 864 square millimeters.

To scan most of the detail on a 35mm photo, you'll need about 864 x 0.1, or 87 Megapixels.

But wait: each film pixel represents true R, G and B data, not the softer Bayer interpolated data from digital camera sensors. A single-chip 87 MP digital camera still couldn't see details as fine as a piece of 35mm film.

Since the lie factor factor from digital cameras is about two, you'd need a digital camera of about 87 x 2 = 175 MP to see every last detail that makes onto film.

That's just 35mm film. Pros don't shoot 35mm, they usually shoot 2-1/4" or 4x5."

At the same rates, 2-1/4" (56mm square) would be 313 MP, and 4x5" (95x120mm) would be 95 x 120 = 11,400 square millimeters = 1,140 MP, with no Bayer Interpolation. A digital camera with Bayer Interpolation would need to be rated at better than 2 gigapixels to see things that can be seen on a sheet of 4x5" film.
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There is NO WAY digital is up to film. Sorry. When Kodak released the 54mp comparison. It was right when digital started. They still had a lot of advances in film from that time. So, not a big shock it's went up.

What you're going to. Is film in the digital realm. Which is limited by the quality of your scanner. Enlargements from raw data from a 35mm DSLR full frame to a 35mm film. The film will show the fine details in the eyebrows. While the digital needs sharpening and electronic help. As long as it's focused. The Film still shows lots more detail.
 
. Unless you specifically require film for some special treatment, it it is far cheaper to go with digital.

I'm a bit late coming into this party, nonetheless I'm prepared........




with several bags of popcorn :popcorn::popcorn::D



and btw digital is cheaper, quicker, easier, sharper, and above all soooooooooo much more boring than film photography :ROFLMAO:

:film: cos it requires SKILL:p:D


Medium format and very fine grain film is the minimum setup to get reasonable end results. .

What complete b#ll#x :rolleyes:
 
I might be late to this trainwreck of a thread, but OP - I have a Nikon Coolscan IV too, and the largest scans I can get out of it are around 2500 pixels on the largest side (if memory serves). I use Vuescan too, and if you have a fiddle about with your settings you might be able to pull some more details out of your scans. however, I've found importing into Lightroom afterwards and applying a bit of grain reduction works well too!
 
I am late as well,but, I scanned over 400 old slides and negatives(out of 3000 that I have) that were important to my family. These were all shot on good quality film,mainly Fuji slide and Kodak negative.

I did find that when and on the rare occasion I tried to convert to B&W to IQ did deteriorate considerable (grain increased).

In a brainstorm in my sleep,I tried just to perform a very light grey scale conversion and the results improve dramatically, much less grain and more representative of the original.

So in conclusion my assumption is the less you tinker on conversion the better the end result.
 
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And you had to tell us all???
 
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