Digital images from 35 mm colour negatives

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Littletank

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I would like to use some old 35 mm colour negatives, that I have, to produce digital images and have come against a problem. The negatives are scanned using a Nikon COOLSCAN IV and ViewScan software. The images produced appear to be very grainy and this grain becomes emphasised on conversion to black & white and especially on enlargement.

Would you expect old colour negative film to have a heavy grain or am I doing something wrong, please help?
 
I would like to use some old 35 mm colour negatives, that I have, to produce digital images and have come against a problem. The negatives are scanned using a Nikon COOLSCAN IV and ViewScan software. The images produced appear to be very grainy and this grain becomes emphasised on conversion to black & white and especially on enlargement.

Would you expect old colour negative film to have a heavy grain or am I doing something wrong, please help?

Can you post one Norman, how heavy is very heavy...:)
 
As requested herewith as scanned and a B&W conversion. Try viewing at 100% for example.


castle1.jpg castle2.jpg
 
Well, it looks ok to me, couldn't describe it as grainy particularly, although I can pick it out a little.
I can't look at it at 100%, the file is 126kb which is tiny, the thing pixilates long before grain could become apparent.
You have the advantage of pixel peeping a full res scan, I dunno what speed the film is but you are going to see grain in 400 speed 35mm colour neg even at moderate magnification, thats just a property of small format print film.
Also, your scanner software my be introducing usm by default which will emphasis grain.
Tbh, you will see grain in 35mm film, especially in a full res scan, its hardly noticeable as a 6x4 or a small file on a computer screen, it only becomes a problem if you want to print it larger.
If the scans are for web use, this one looks fine, if you want to print from a full res file, there are limitations if you don't want to see grain...:)
 
Scanning Kodachrome slides needs to be done differently from other types of slides. This particularly relates (if I remember correctly) to the software removing dust and scratches automatically.
 
As requested herewith as scanned and a B&W conversion. Try viewing at 100% for example.


View attachment 90867 View attachment 90868

An idea......Well Norman I've started to use Flickr where you can upload a high scan pic and we can all pixel peep to see these sort of problems. Depending how old the film is, it will never be as good as more modern film as I've compared by colour negs taken in the 60s to film from 2000 onwards.
 
I'm only on my phone but it doesn't look like the noise is that obvious in the original colour scan, suggesting you're overdoing the editing.

I've just looked at the two images again on my laptop and the same noise is clearly visible in the colour version as well so I'd think it's either a bad/low resolution scan in the first place or the negatives are just noisy/poor quality due to age.
 
Thank you folks for taking the trouble to respond and for your suggestions. The negatives are probably at least 20 years old so perhaps film of that era was rather grainy. I will check the scanner settings to make sure there is no USM asked for and to make sure that the settings for the scan are optimum. For the images posted the IR dust removal was set to minimum but that should not enhance grain.

I will look to prepare some more images and find a better way of posting them for examination.
 
There could be a number of reasons for the grain content of the shots, including:

It was a higher ASA rated film, which will usually have a more noticeable grain.
The shot was incorrectly exposed, which can increase the graininess.
The film, at the time when shot, was expired or had been badly stored.

To be honest though, it doesn't look too bad - it might just have been shot on a bog-standard roll of 200 ASA film, the sort that people used to pick up in the supermarket or chemists or wherever. My recent shots using non-expired Agfa Vista Plus 200 have similar, if not more, graniness than the shots above.
 
Perhaps I am expecting to be able to make selective enlargements like I would do with scans from slides and that is expecting too much.
 
There could be a number of reasons for the grain content of the shots, including:

It was a higher ASA rated film, which will usually have a more noticeable grain.
The shot was incorrectly exposed, which can increase the graininess.
The film, at the time when shot, was expired or had been badly stored.

To be honest though, it doesn't look too bad - it might just have been shot on a bog-standard roll of 200 ASA film, the sort that people used to pick up in the supermarket or chemists or wherever. My recent shots using non-expired Agfa Vista Plus 200 have similar, if not more, graniness than the shots above.

Well Vista is Fuji C200, classed as cheap film like Kodak colorplus and can't remember when it first came out but wouldn't surprise me if it's the same formula going back many years, compared to Superia 200 with 4th layer etc it's not as good. But Vista can still produce VG shots on the right subject so I'm happy using it and save my best films for something important.
 
Well Vista is Fuji C200, classed as cheap film like Kodak colorplus and can't remember when it first came out but wouldn't surprise me if it's the same formula going back many years, compared to Superia 200 with 4th layer etc it's not as good. But Vista can still produce VG shots on the right subject so I'm happy using it and save my best films for something important.

Yeah, I like it too - my comment on the grain wasn't intended to be detrimental (plus some of the graininess is probably down to my exposure setting anyway). I like the slightly magenta tones it gives, especially on sunny days. The Poundland price is a boon too - I still have at least five rolls in the house at present and will be buying some more in the future! :)

The point I was making is that the original shots might have been taken on some similar cheap film from the time - a supermarket or chemist's own-brand for instance - the sort of thing that most people would buy because it was much cheaper than the higher quality stuff.
 
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This leads on to a very interesting point. On the edge of the film is ISO 200 and there is a green block between the sprocket holes. There is also what I believe could be some sort of code which could give details of the manufacturer. Has anyone any idea if this is so and, if it is, is there a site where this code is deciphered?
 
This leads on to a very interesting point. On the edge of the film is ISO 200 and there is a green block between the sprocket holes. There is also what I believe could be some sort of code which could give details of the manufacturer. Has anyone any idea if this is so and, if it is, is there a site where this code is deciphered?

Yes you sometimes can get an idea on who made the film but best was the bar code on the cassette and has been known for a few years with a site (now closed) on deciphering it.....I have the file from the owner before he closed that you enter the code BUT something stops it working IIRC Java? keeps being blocked by Firefox, Kaspersky or whatever and haven't got around to solving it,....also IIRC a guy here downloaded the data sheet for these bar codes before they were taken off the net. Interesting for old colour neg film from places like superdrug, Boots, Jessops etc but not much point using it in recent years as who's left making film as Fuji and Kodak are the big boys (for colour negs).
 
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Unfortunately all I have are packets with the negatives as it might be interesting to know who made the film. However, this probably would not help with the grain problem.
 
I think Samuel (@s162216 ) has the code list too.

For me, I used my last "chemist" film the other week and didn't bother to check it, as at worst it's going to be C200 or colorplus sometimes Ferrania or Agfa or even better Konica and know I can get decent results from these ...so until I see some more at the bootie for 10p :rolleyes:
 
This leads on to a very interesting point. On the edge of the film is ISO 200 and there is a green block between the sprocket holes. There is also what I believe could be some sort of code which could give details of the manufacturer. Has anyone any idea if this is so and, if it is, is there a site where this code is deciphered?

Can you take a picture of the edge of the film strip with the bar code? Someone here should be able to decode it. It's helpful to know the film type when scanning colour negative anyway, as you have to adjust for the orange base, and most scanner software does that based on film type.

Don't assume on the basis of a few examples that all your old colour negative film will turn out grainy. However, I know you do major crops from some of your slides, and I suspect you will find that harder to do with colour neg film. Good ones should be ok, though.
 
Very well, I have all these old colour negatives that I would like to scan so that I can decide whether to process the images further or consign them to the bin. Have you any tips on what sort of settings to use to get the optimum scan results given that the scanner is a Nikon Coolscan IV and the software the professional version of VueScan, please?
 
Very well, I have all these old colour negatives that I would like to scan so that I can decide whether to process the images further or consign them to the bin. Have you any tips on what sort of settings to use to get the optimum scan results given that the scanner is a Nikon Coolscan IV and the software the professional version of VueScan, please?

I don't think what I do is any kind of guide to good practice, Norman, and I don't have a Coolscan. Said to be excellent, but note that Vuescan options can change depending on the scanner. I have had such mixed results with scanning C41 (and some of yours might predate that, as do some of mine) that I get all my new shots processed and scanned professionally. However, the bees knees for colour negative conversion (excluding the really pro kit) is said to be ColorPerfect. Not that expensive, it operates as a plugin to Photoshop (or Elements). The idea is you scan the negative as if it was a positive (ie transparency, slide, reversal, whatever) with NO corrections, and make a 16-bit TIFF. Then load it into PS or PSE and pass to ColorPerfect, and adjust from there. Time consuming and resulting in massive files, but it does work.

This is an old thread from when I was just starting shooting film again, that covers some of this:

https://www.talkphotography.co.uk/t...ntax-scanning-etc-please.404577/#post-4619593
 
Very well, I have all these old colour negatives that I would like to scan so that I can decide whether to process the images further or consign them to the bin. Have you any tips on what sort of settings to use to get the optimum scan results given that the scanner is a Nikon Coolscan IV and the software the professional version of VueScan, please?

I'm still using an old Acer Scanwit, I bought back in the millennium; results I'm getting now using Vuescan are enormously more impressive than I got with the box software, but it aint particularly fast.

Settings I use is max Dpi (I cant remember exactly, probably about the same as your coolscan, about 28oo ish, I think) delivers, about 2500x3600 pix for a full frame, just shy of 10Mpix.
I scan via twain direct into Photo-shop in PSD format, at 48bit colour depth; I select multi-pass set at 12 times* with multi-exposure 'on'.
I tend to leave scan exposure on ether auto or white balance; only if I have anything particularly awkward to try and 'recover' do I mess with the exposure centers or curves; and make any adjustments post-scan Photo-shop.I leave noise reduction & sharpening 'off', likewise 'restore colours'. And, again, do any touching, post in PS.

*12 over-scan makes scan time rather lengthy!!! I'ts probably a little over-kill. 3x over-scan is better than single pass by a good margin, 6x is probably more than good enough most of the time. Above that gains seem to start getting smaller, but saves re-scanning the ones that are a bit 'iffy' . 9x is probably about 'optimal' for quality/reliability, but 12x gives that little more confidence. At 6x I'm looking at 30 minutes a strip of 6, so setting it to batch and going to find something else to do whilst it does them, so difference stretching that to 45min or so makes little odds anyway!

The images produced appear to be very grainy and this grain becomes emphasised on conversion to black & white and especially on enlargement.

I have never really see 'film grain' in anything out of the scanner, the scanner resolution just isn't high enough. to actually start resolving halide crystal structure in the pixels. 'Noise' on the other hand is a different matter.

For 110 cartridge film, and a few TINY Minox sub-mini negs, I have used a slide duplicator lens on the electric picture maker to digitize them. Duplicator has limited 'zoom' enlargement as well as the 1.5x crop factor, that can quite 'nicely' get me a 'one shot' 24Mpix file from a 110 cartridge frame; Minox at max mag has to be cropped down a bit. Making such high scale enlargements to digital, I can start just about start seeing actual halide chrystal film grain rendered by the pixies with a bit of peeping.

This is a 'camera-scan' from 8x11mm Minox neg (sized down from original 20 ish Mpix). At full-frame, even though the frame area is barely 1/4 that of 35mm, film-grain isn't particularly obvious.

1374047_668185736539680_338210879_n.jpg

Here's a 1:1 pixel crop from original camera scan, something like 10x enlargement from original, and only now is the actual grain detail starting to show in the pixels! And even her a lot of the granularity is actually digital noise.
556846_668185753206345_339917285_n.jpg


That's a 20+year old neg, BTW. Shows the quality that the little spy camera had in it's day, reasonably well I think! What I have taken from 110 negs on the other hand, has often been quite horrid! Probably the worst of the worse as far as the original film stock and processing, as well as exposure, in what was probably a key-ring camera of the lowest order in most cases! And again, youngest have got to be pushing 20 years old.

But the point is, you would need to be scanning at an un-interpolated 'true' resolution of around 10,00 dpi, four times or or that of most scanners, before you would be resolving actual real halide crystal 'grain' structure.

Perhaps I am expecting to be able to make selective enlargements like I would do with scans from slides and that is expecting too much.

As far as real 'grain' is concerned, it shouldn't be. As said, scanner resolution shouldn't be high enough to start resolving the halide crystals in the pixels, still. Main difference between slide and print film is in the chemistry.

In a Print film, the silver halide crystals are encouraged to oxidize and go black when light falls on them; development promotes that reaction so that where light falls you get more crystal growth and a dark area, and where little or no light falls, the crystals remain smaller or are washed away entirely to leave a light area. With a Slide film, mechanics are exactly the same until half way through development, when dye attaches iyself to where there ISN'T any halide crystals, before the crystals themselves are bleached away, to effect 'reversal' of the image, from negative to positive; So you don't see actual crystal structure in a slide, but the 'stain' where they were before they were bleached out. So you still should have the same degree of 'granularity', just 'reversed'

Only other significant difference is that C41 colour print film has a rather strong orange filter in the actual celluloid. This is to compensate for a rather high response to blue light in the print emulsion, that needs to be filtered out in printing to avoid a strong cast, and it's easiest to put that 'gross' filter on the film than have to try and dial it out on the enlarger. However, as any-one who has ever tried to make Black & White prints from C41 colour negatives can attest, it DOES rather effect the contrast in the print.

Which is all probably a lot of convoluted techno-babble, to say that I don't think you are seeing 'grain', but digital 'noise', which i possibly exacerbated by the lower contrast obtained from C41 colour negatives, due to the correction cast.

And possibly, that most old colour print film was usually of low grade to begin with, a roll given away 'free' when you got your prints back from the notable not very god postal developers.and was most often run through a relatively unsophisticated compact camera, many with a fixed aperture and shutter speed, relying entirely on the films exposure latitude and printing correction to get a decent image off it. When run through more sophisticated cameras some better control of metering was likely applied ether by camera or user, but with a far degree of exposure latitude and correction in printing, diligence applied was seldom to the same degree as any-one who shot slide film, where without the same degree of exposure latitude and no room for correction in printing, users were far usually more determined to get it 'clean in camera' and particularly to avoid blowing highlights.

I am expecting to be able to make selective enlargements
Picking up on that one, in my own experience, I haven't really noticed much of any huge difference in taking crops from a scanned neg to one taken from a scanned slide. Limit of digital enlargement in either case has been in the original scan resolution and the degree of enlargement before pixelisation.

Now, with a scanner resolution that delivers only around 10Mpix for a full frame image, the amount of sectional enlargement you can make from it before the display image is grossly pixlated at far more moderate levels of crop than when taken from the 24Mpix image my electric picture maker gives me. Hence, where I may wish to make a sectional enlargement, to get the biggest pixel count I can 'at source', and avoid 'digital zoom', I will usually make a Camera-Scan with the slide duplicator lens, and get as much enlargement of the section optically, and get that section in 24Mpix rather than something less than 7..

Which takes matters off on a tangent as to the best method for the task, and overall work-flow. As mentioned I have had the old Acer since Y2K, when I decided that early direct to digital electric picture makers were far too expensive for the resolution they offered, and notion of shooting E6 Slide and scanning, offered bets quality for least cost.... and MOST time... When home developing was soon shown to be a spit in the ocean compared to even just a single pass 1200Dpi scan on an old 233Mhz Pentium II PC with just 8Megs, yes MEGS of RAM! seriously, I would leave it scanning one strip over night!

Consequently, to tackle the back catalog, when I chanced on a 'cheap' web-cam type scanner in Maplins, it seemed a good buy, 'just' to get the old negs and slides into the light of day and see what I got! Quality is NOT it's strong suit, but it is fast, and good enough for web display, at least full-frame. Then, I could go back, and cherry pic the frames that I wanted to make a 'better' quality scan of with the Acer, or if I saw a sectional enlargement in there, to camera scan with the duplicator lens on the electric picture maker.

Making camera scans is rather more laborious, especially from negatives; I'm essentially taking a digital photo of the neg; which the has to be inverted in Photo Shop, the color cast removed and the colour balance adjusted or normalized 'manually', after manually setting the exposure on the camera, which can mean doing a bit of chimping. But, to get decent resolution sectional enlargements, it's a method that tends to work better than trying to take a crop section from conventional scan, if a far amount of enlargement is required.

But upshot of the matter is horses for courses, and how good a scan you really need or want, and whether even a dedicated film scanner is necessarily the most appropriate means of getting it especially if you want only a small sectional crop from it.

Which brings us back to the top somewhat, how to get the 'best' from the scanner/Vuescan.... which now really depends on what is 'best' for you.... and how much time and faffing you want to do! ut I would advise spending a bit of time experimenting, and f you haven't tried it, scanning via twain into an editor, rather than direct to jpg, and playing with the mult-pass multi-exposure settings..
 
Thank you very much indeed, Mike, for your most interesting and comprehensive report based on your experience. I agree that the granularity I experience is not film grain but, from further reading I have made, could be the combined effect of a property inherent in the film and the scanner I use. The following URL makes most interesting reading and is certainly giving me food for thought:-

http://www.colorperfect.com/salt_and_pepper.html?lang=en

I am not sure where to go next but one consideration could be to find an alternative scanner.
 
I have never really see 'film grain' in anything out of the scanner, the scanner resolution just isn't high enough. to actually start resolving halide crystal structure in the pixels. 'Noise' on the other hand is a different matter.

Interesting to see this 35mm shot projected and printed in a darkroom to the same size after clicking for magnification https://www.flickr.com/photos/31831722@N08/30403237883/in/dateposted-public/ as you can definitely see pixels\noise
 
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It is from 35mm neg.....IMO we are stuck with pixels\noise as even about 5 years ago when I got my V750 tried to get rid of it and in this e.g. used despeckle in Photoshop h'mm with that result you might as well use a digi.




 
I worked in a minilab in the 90's and I found Konica to be a good film to use, process and print.
A slight magenta cast even if the dichroics were set right but just looked good.
 
Brian, the only reason I am interested in this topic is because of my hobby which includes producing digital images from old colour negatives and frequently converting them or parts of them into B&W. When converted this speckle effect becomes very prominent.
 
I worked in a minilab in the 90's and I found Konica to be a good film to use, process and print.
A slight magenta cast even if the dichroics were set right but just looked good.

It's no more...they also produced a colour neg film of 3200 ISO and the rumour around not too long ago was that Kodak was investigating the possibilty of 64,000 ISO colour film. If digi wasn't invented it might be around today.
 
Brian, the only reason I am interested in this topic is because of my hobby which includes producing digital images from old colour negatives and frequently converting them or parts of them into B&W. When converted this speckle effect becomes very prominent.

..but my memory isn't capable of going back to the first post let alone yesterday :D anyway it's a f&c tradition to wander in a thread o_O
 
I use Epson flatbed scanners, and the only colour negative film I have to check immediately to hand is a scan of Fuji 160. I've looked at 100% on a scan of size 14560x18491 and failed to see any grain. Given that grain technically won't exist in a colour image anyway (all the silver halide crystals are removed and replaced by dyes in the processing) this isn't surprising. There wasn't much evidence of digial noise either, but I "over scan" and get the scanner to average out pixels to reduce noise.

It's an interesting question as to what you should see under a microscope when examining colour images and worth looking into - although as a black and white user I'm more or less exempt from needing to know. :D
 
Well that's progress, it's the digi age re pixels\noise\artifacts for filmies and digi guys......so that's that for filmies if you don't want to use the darkroom. :rolleyes:
 
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Medium format and very fine grain film is the minimum setup to get reasonable end results. Unless you specifically require film for some special treatment, it it is far cheaper to go with digital.
 
Medium format and very fine grain film is the minimum setup to get reasonable end results. Unless you specifically require film for some special treatment, it it is far cheaper to go with digital.

Well unless you're doing as the OP does and working with old materials in which case its far cheaper to use the negative or slide than to buy a delorian with the flux capacitor and Mr Fusion option pack.
 
Medium format and very fine grain film is the minimum setup to get reasonable end results. Unless you specifically require film for some special treatment, it it is far cheaper to go with digital.

Cheaper?.... Maybe. As much fun?.... Definitely not.
 
Cheaper?.... Maybe. As much fun?.... Definitely not.

Fun is all relative. To me the fun part is being out in a beautiful landscape, not so much sniffing chemicals at home... Your experience may obviously differ. :)

Well unless you're doing as the OP does and working with old materials in which case its far cheaper to use the negative or slide than to buy a delorian with the flux capacitor and Mr Fusion option pack.

I appreciate that. The best you can do is use the very best film scanner, but at the end of a day a grainy 35mm film isn't going to give much more than files printable at max 8x12". Unless they are rare frames of historic significance the time could be better spent making new images.
 
I've just looked at the scans from my oldest surviving images, some Kodachrome images which were taken in 1981; they are very grainy. By comparison the OP's images are much higher technical image quality ... despite the growth of digital, the quality of modern films has increased enormously. You could say we've never had it so good ...
 
Medium format and very fine grain film is the minimum setup to get reasonable end results. Unless you specifically require film for some special treatment, it it is far cheaper to go with digital.

Cheaper? Quite a few cameras with lenses I've got were under £10 and the same lenses are being used by guys (on a forum) using expensive A7r IIs etc and doubt you would see much difference in an 10" X 8" print or even higher.
 
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