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  1. Ravinder

    Ravinder

    Messages:
    250
    Name:
    Ravinder Bindra
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    Hi

    A good friend of mine has his own restaurants. Just last week, he underwent a refurbishment of one of his restaurants.
    A few weeks ago, he asked me if I could take some pictures of the local area and provide pictures to display in the restaurant. I said I would see what I could do depending on time etc.

    Anyway, fast forward to last week, he was constantly on my back about having some pictures. I had only got a couple for him. He asked me if I could send him my other landscape images but wants the images in black and white. Most of my images are in colour and I explained that the pictures already edited are my best work and that if he wishes to have these specific pictures then it would have to be displayed as they are, in colour. He didn’t want this. With him being a friend, I reluctantly agreed to provide him some black and white images so I did some re editing pictures for him.
    I sent the pictures to him. He arranged the printing himself from a local print supplier he uses for his business cards, flyers etc. I knew the quality wouldn’t be great such as prints from Loxley colour etc. He also bought his own frames and mounts.

    I gave him the pictures to display in his restaurant, not for me to make money or anything like that, just for him as a favour. He spoke about helping me sell the pictures. I wasn’t fussed too fussed about this. I just thought to myself, if a customer in the restaurant likes it, then they can contact me directly etc. He insisted on helping me sell prints. I said, well in that case, I can give him some business cards to leave at the front desk and if a customer expresses interest, he can hand the card to the customer directly, but again, I wasn't pushing this at all as I really wasn’t bothered if they sell or not.
    He then said he would like to sell pictures from the wall directly so if a customer was ready to buy a picture, he can give him the display and then I can provide a replacement. I didn’t agree with this at all and it sounded odd. The reason I didn’t agree with this is because, A - it would look odd without a picture on his wall where customers would sit, B - I may not wish to provide any more pictures as I was just doing this as a one off favour, and C - the pictures and the presentation represent who I am. So, if I did get a sale, I would like to print the picture myself of the highest quality, using the best mounts and frames. Not ones that he is providing.

    Now, this is the bit that stumbled me and annoyed me a bit - He said that from any sales of pictures in the restaurant, he would go 50/50 with me. So, if a customer wishes to buy a picture that they have seen in the restaurant, he wants half....
    Now, how on Earth does that work...? He has pictures on his walls which he would have had from me anyway as I was doing it as a favour but then wants half of the sales? I appreciate him having my pictures on his wall and asking me to provide pictures as it means I have my own little gallery to display, which by the way I wasn’t bothered about in the first place but it was him that kept pushing me for the pictures which I agreed to do as a favour.

    Is it me or does this seem unfair? The way I thought about it, was that he has the business cards there so if anyone expressed interest, they can contact me directly to buy. The longer I thought about it, I then thought maybe it’s not unreasonable for him to have a small cut since the pictures are displayed on his wall so I was thinking maybe something like 80/20 which I think is very fair as he doesn’t have to do anything! And there’re my pictures, not his. He also suggested they work our prices to which I said to him prices will be decided by me and not him as they’re my images. With regards to his proposal of 40/50, I was gobsmacked and had to leave. I just said I would think about it and get back to him.

    This makes me angry as we have been friends since we were kids and we have helped each other out in the past but nothing like this. It’s like he’s got his business head screwed on and not thinking about our friendship and the reason I did this in the first place.

    My concern as well, is that if he didn’t accept my 80/20 proposal then I don’t wish to go ahead with it. So, he can keep the pictures on the wall but they’re not for sale by any means. I don’t think he is the type of person that would sell pictures without me knowing and gaining from it but you never know.....

    I don’t really know where to go from here. It has been really stressing me out for the last 24hrs and I’ve bareky slept because of it. I feel like this whole thing has been a mistake now...
    Please, I don’t want any criticism as I’m regretting this already and know I may be wrong in this but some helpful advise would be greatly appreciated.

    Many thanks

    Ravinder
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2017 at 10:56 AM
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  2. kendo1

    kendo1

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    6,292
    Name:
    Ken
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    I wonder if he came to an agreement with the shop fitters/builders to go fifty fifty as he was showing off their work?
     
  3. Orangecroc

    Orangecroc

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    2,382
    Name:
    Ben
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    Tell him the truth. Point out that you don't want your work sold at a quality level you wouldn't supply yourself with regards to the printing and mounting.
     
  4. TLR-330

    TLR-330

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    921
    Name:
    Charles
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    Reading your post in a bit of a hurry so here are random comments:
    - he is trying to set up a novelty thing in the restaurant by running a gallery
    - galleries (for fine art) AFAIK work on half the sale money being theirs

    Since the proposal did not start as a gallery and potential sales (even if it had) I would not be happy if I was not in control of the (quality of the) printing and the images being associated with me. Even more so if the images are to be for sale ... cheap printing may reflect bad upon you. I could go on about what restaurant is it and what prices are going to be charged to the customers, i.e. at what market are you placing your photo "exhibition".
     
  5. Willid1

    Willid1

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    1,462
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    David Williams
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    Perhaps your friend really likes your work and thinks he's doing you a favour displaying it in his restaurant. Sales would be bonus and 50:50 seems to be quite usual in these situations - but of course you haven't agreed
    first. If it's really troubling you I would just explain your thoughts and if you can't agree let him source his artwork elsewhere D
     
  6. gramps

    gramps

    Messages:
    29,853
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    Either tell him you don't want to do it or tell him how you want to do it ... if as you say you are friends, surely you can talk to him about it without falling out?
     
  7. Ravinder

    Ravinder

    Messages:
    250
    Name:
    Ravinder Bindra
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    Thanks for the advise.

    The restaurant was refurbed by himself and his brother and someone else they know. Labour costs would of been very low. Most of the money they’ve spent, 5-6k I think it was would of been equipment - carpets, paint, frames, lights etc etc

    I def8mietly want to be in control of the prints and frames etc as it will reflect my quality of work. Not the ones that he has. I visited the restaurant yesterday and the quality of prints are not good....frames look OK but they’re cheap stuff. It’s ok for a restaurant but not OK for delivering to clients.

    The restaurant is quite nice and a bit more posh then the others. We live in a very small town in Kirkcaldy. I would probably say it’s the best one or two in the town.

    I plan to speak to him either tomorrow or Day after. I thought I’ll figure out what I’m going to say and just give it. A bit of a breather before I see him again.
     
    amer369 likes this.
  8. Ravinder

    Ravinder

    Messages:
    250
    Name:
    Ravinder Bindra
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    I know that he genuinely likes my images as he has told me enough times over the last couple of years.

    Thanks. I will do so. Just trying to figure out what To will say.
     
  9. woof woof

    woof woof

    Messages:
    15,460
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    Alan
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    I can see your point... It's your "work" which could be misrepresented by prints and frames that are not up to your standard. I can also see how a friend could get sort of carried away...

    The following is easy for me to say as I'm just an amateur, I don't rely on money from my photography and I have no reputation to protect... So having said all that...

    I'd give a friend the files he wanted and leave him to print and sell as he wished and I'd take 50% for my trouble and if worried about my reputation I'd make sure that my name wasn't on the "product" :D

    PS.
    Could your friend agree to you supplying some framed pictures to your standards to display and possibly sell? Could this give you the best of both worlds and keep both you and your friend happy?
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2017 at 12:09 PM
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  10. davholla

    davholla

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    David
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    I have only ever sold one photo (and it was my wife who did it) but do normally agents take 50%?
     
  11. ianmarsh

    ianmarsh

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    Lots of cafes and restaurants near me (north London) sell art from their walls, with the artwork changing regularly. From random conversations 50:50 sounds more or less what they offer. So I don't think the "deal" he is offering from my (quick) read of your post is outrageous. However, that wasn't what you agreed to and I'd go with Alan above - only agree to sell if you can get them framed and mounted to your standards, and set the price so you get a decent compensation for your work.
     
  12. mickledore

    mickledore

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    Realistically how many do you expect to sell?
    Not how many would you like to sell; that's completely different.
    How many diners feel compelled to buy a picture off the wall? How many really look at the pictures on the wall?

    It could be that you ate both expecting way too much from this.
     
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  13. f/2.8

    f/2.8

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    Tommy
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    50/50 split is normal for this sort of thing. A few years ago I did a similar thing with a couple of restaurants and a cafe. Worked fine got a few sales but have moved away from shooting that sort of stuff don't have the time so passed it on to a mate who now sorts them out.

    Averaged 1.5 sales a week across the 3 businesses so won't make anyone a millionaire unless you get into a lot of places. The guy I passed it on too does better but his prices are a fair bit cheaper.

    In terms of framing etc. Joe Public won't give a damn so can't see how it would affect anyone's "reputation"
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2017 at 3:25 PM
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  14. Ravinder

    Ravinder

    Messages:
    250
    Name:
    Ravinder Bindra
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    My expectations are low and I’m prepared to get no sale at all. This may lead to absolutely nothing which is also fine by me. However, should a potential sale arise, then I need to sort out the finer details. I’m quite tempted just to call it quits and just tell him that I don’t want any pictures sold and to stick with the initial agreement of me allowing him to display my pictures on his wall and for it to go no further then that. Nor, do I wish to provide him any more images. He has some empty spaces on the wall which he has asked me to fill up too...
    I’d be cheaper just offering my pictures on the likes of eBay and Etsy.
     
  15. Graham W

    Graham W

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    1,495
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    Graham
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    I would say 50/50 was doable IF he had already paid for the use of your pics. If he's so sure that they will sell then I would suggest he buys a commercial licence from you to allow him to sell them on your behalf...and then go 50/50 (Or whatever you agree.)
     
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  16. Chaz Photos

    Chaz Photos Jack Elam

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    Chaz
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    I had a friend some years ago how had a cafe, they wanted to display my photos on the walls, I printed and mounted them myself, I put prices on and it was agreed I got 100% as they got all the walls with photos for free.
    I think this is the way it should be as many places rent photos and art for their walls.
     
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  17. Ravinder

    Ravinder

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    250
    Name:
    Ravinder Bindra
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    Yes
    I agree with that too. The way I’m looking at it now is that he has 18 of my images completely free of charge displayed on his wall making his restaurant look nice and presentable. I’ve not asked for a penny for those pictures. If I was to sell those images with frames, I’d be asking in the region of £140 each so he has several hundreds of pounds worth of images for nothing. And then he wants 50% of any sales? I think that is very cheeky of him and quite frankly, very insulting towards me. I’ve thought about this more today and things are getting a bit clearer. I feel the only way he would have a right to get a cut is as someone said above, if he had paid something for the pictures in the first place. But, he hasn’t.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2017 at 11:26 PM
  18. Carlo

    Carlo

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    Carl
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    Mixing business and friends ALWAYS ends badly!
    If you're not happy, walk away.
     
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  19. Teflon-Mike

    Teflon-Mike

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    Mike
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    "You know, your cooking is fantastic!... As a favour could you make me a take-away for my lunch every day.... yeah, I know that's like £20 a pop, but, hey, we're mates, yeah? I know when you sell your meals they are like £20 a cover, but it's just like when I pop round and you offer me a sandwhich.... isn't it? So, you make my lunches, and if any-one at work, likes the smell, and asks, I'll send them down your shop and you can charge them £20 and then give me a tenner, right?"
    I THINK that suggestion would probably close the topic....
     
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  20. Ravinder

    Ravinder

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    250
    Name:
    Ravinder Bindra
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    Yes
    I was thinking that to myself. If someone asked me where is a nice place locally to go eat and I recommend his restaurant and he/she goes there, does that mean I am entitled to half of the money? Don’t think so!
     
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  21. wezza13

    wezza13

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    Wez
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    Spot on Mike! (y)
     
  22. droj

    droj

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    2,268
    Name:
    Rog
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    You dropped yourself into this, so there's no-one else to blame. It was up to you to negotiate the arrangement - instead you've let yourself be browbeaten into something you don't like. You should've refused the mono idea if you didn't like it (to maintain your integrity), and you should have discussed terms and been prepared to walk away.

    You can maintain the 'friendship' by leaving your photos on their wall, but the friendship is now 'qualified' - or maybe its true nature has been revealed. And you'll be wiser next time.

    To be clear, you have been bullied, which is not an equal relationship.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2017 at 1:00 PM
  23. gramps

    gramps

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    Really? Bullied? ... Such an over-used and miss-applied expression in this day and age.
     
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  24. droj

    droj

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    2,268
    Name:
    Rog
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    Yes, exactly that. Ravinder has allowed himself to be bullied. It's not the prettiest of circumstances.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2017 at 2:11 PM
  25. gramps

    gramps

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    Sorry but nobody has bullied anybody, Ravinder has been given a proposition which he can accept or decline ... if in declining he gets coerced, abused or thumped he will then have been bullied.
     
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  26. Scirocco_09

    Scirocco_09

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    579
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    I guess the reason he's stating 50% is because he's printed them himself. The problem with suggesting high end framing and printing is the cost would probably come back to you and I bet he wouldn't buy them for display, wanting free images in the first place. It sounds like he's been heavy handed about it, but remember his way your photos are getting out there at no no cost to you and you may make a bit of money. Tricky one though as he's clearly crossed your boundaries
     
  27. Daniel_Paul

    Daniel_Paul

    Messages:
    112
    Name:
    Daniel
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    Why don't you ask your friend if he will comission you to take some more unique pictures exclusive to his restaurant? That way you're getting paid and he is essentially getting a product? Not only that but you're not letting him put out work you're not happy with. You could offer a 'mates rates' discount as a gesture of goodwill and everyone wins then?
     
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  28. Ravinder

    Ravinder

    Messages:
    250
    Name:
    Ravinder Bindra
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    Thanks for the advise.

    ^^^

    Well, if we did reach a deal such as 80/20, part of the dela would be that I arrange the prints and the presentation of the picture etc. But, this is obviously for the picture that sell, if any. The pictures that are on his wall will remain as they are and I will not allow him to sell the pictures from the wall directly. If a customer likes a picture and wants it, then I will print it, frame and mount it and present it to the customer directly. It wouldn’t cost him. It would cost me but if I sell the picture for the price that I set, then I’ll still make money from it, minus his 20% for instance.
     
  29. enived

    enived

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    30
    Name:
    paul
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    Yes
    It sounds to me that your friend does not understand what these photographs mean to you and has unwittenly offended you by treating them as a straight forward business opportunity.
     
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  30. Meeten

    Meeten

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    Meeten
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    Or you could ask him to contribute to the cost of getting the images to a standard you are happy to sell.
    He will be invested then, and you can agree a sale price (minus costs) and share the profits, 50/50.

    If this is an area you want to continue working on, this would be a good outlet to show off your work.

    If they are just going to be sitting on a hard drive somewhere not being enjoyed, then there is no gain for anyone.
     
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  31. Ravinder

    Ravinder

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    250
    Name:
    Ravinder Bindra
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    Yes
    ^^^

    This is what I think. I don’t think he appreciates my work and what it takes to go out and get good pictures. I go out all distances, walk miles in all sorts of weather conditions and time of day to get these pictures and then spend time editing them until I’m happy with them.
     
  32. Chipper

    Chipper

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    1,377
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    Hmm. This doesn't sound like the behaviour of a friend; of course, the word itself means different things to us all. I would imagine that as well as stressing you out, you feel quite resentful that you have allowed him to push you in to changing your images already.

    Whilst that is simmering away, the commission proposal to me demonstrates that he has started to see himself as something other than your friend. I have come to realise that most people for whom photography is a peripheral thing, don't understand how much it matters that our images are presented to the best standard possible.

    So, plenty of advice here; for my ten pence worth, I would suggest that you sit down with him (knowing exactly what you want before you do so) and explain it very clearly and stick to it.

    He has already crossed your line; a genuine friend will be appalled to realise this. If he doesn't show any sign of regret, as a previous post has indicated, this guy isn't your friend. If you want him as a business partner, get it written down, signed and make sure you are happy with it: images, presentation, £.
     
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  33. jondc

    jondc

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    1,917
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    Jonothan
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    As a thought, ask him to rustle up a few meals for you to freeze and keep, so when you hold dinner parties you can offer them one of his meals, for 50% of the sale price.
     
  34. newbie1

    newbie1

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    Newbie1
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    Hi Ravinder - tricky...can you get him to slow down a bit and reset the discussion? Something like ok so now I understand you’re offering me a fab opportunity to market my pics....let’s think about how that could work best. Maybe ask some of the customers do they want to buy framed or print only? What sizes? Any interest in a photo book as a sampler of your work they can take and think about maybe buy a print next time? If the split is 50:50 and he’s paying for framing and printing doesn’t sound too bad. If you prefer to have more control in the product and pay for printing then 30% commission might be in order with customers organizing own framing. Depends on the sizes you would need to do the sums. If it was me I’d welcome the opportunity and try and make the most of it while calming my over enthusiastic friend down :) hope that helps and good luck.
     
  35. Ravinder

    Ravinder

    Messages:
    250
    Name:
    Ravinder Bindra
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    Yes
    Some food advise, thank you. I know what he’s like and if he insists on printing pictures, he will use his regular print company and judging by the prints put up in the restaurant, they are not very good. I’m now quite ashamed looking at those images on his wall as I don’t like them...
    If I was able to get pictures of the local area, I wouldn’t be so bothered. But, these are some of my best landscape images that have been edited to black and white which worked “ok” but not great but then turned even worse because of the quality of the prints.
     
  36. HoppyUK

    HoppyUK

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    21,311
    Name:
    Richard
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    He doesn't understand your position as an 'artist' (for want of a better term) and you don't understand his position from a business perspective. You don't like the quality of the printing (artistic decision) but if someone wants to buy one as it stands, then he doesn't see a problem (business decision).

    Look at it from his side - he's doing you a favour. All you've done is rework a few images, he's had them printed up and framed and is offering you a nice marketing opportunity and 50% of any sales. The way he sees it, you're getting 50% of something rather than 100% of nothing - and for doing very little (that's why the commission is high). What's not to like?

    I understand your point of view though, even if it's not very commercial - and there's the rub. You've got off on the wrong foot and either need to reset, or stop. As a compromise (business is like that) how about you get some better prints done that you're happy to put your name on? It shouldn't cost much, then let the arrangement run, see how it goes, and if it all goes south then put it down to experience, that's life, but if you can avoid falling out, no real harm done.
     
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  37. jerry12953

    jerry12953

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    Jeremy Moore
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    I've only skimmed your original post but it looks like you value your work far more than your friend does. 50/50 sounds pretty advantageous to him although if he has printed/framed them at his own expense 50/50 is more palatable..

    I think I would let this first batch of work go through as he has suggested - But with the understanding that if he wants more you supply them on YOUR terms, not his. In other words, print/frame at your own expense, and a much smaller commission, say 80/20.

    While they are hanging on his wall they are entertaining his customers. He should pay for that in some way, for example by offering a lower commission. Some/many galleries do take 50% but they would tend to be the more upmarket ones which put a lot more time/effort into selling your work than your friend is doing.

    Don't worry about there being a gap on the wall if one sells. You might want to replace it straight away but it is your friends problem not yours.....

    Discussing this sort of thing is not easy and even more difficult to do with a friend. It tends to cloud over the business decisions you both have to make.
     
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  38. Ravinder

    Ravinder

    Messages:
    250
    Name:
    Ravinder Bindra
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    Yes
    Thank you. So, do you mean sell the existing prints on the wall at 50/50 and then once they’re sold, if I decide to replace them for him, go 80/20 since I will be arranging my own prints and framing? That doesn’t sound too bad, actually. Something to consider. Personally, I don’t think he will agree with me printing and framing. But, I’ll run it by him. If he doesn’t go for that, then I will pull out completely and he can use the pictures for display use only and not selling. Nor, will I wish to provide more images for him. It’s just not worth my time. I just hope that he doesn’t sell any of the images behind my back. That will result the end of our friendship I think should that happen.
     
  39. HoppyUK

    HoppyUK

    Messages:
    21,311
    Name:
    Richard
    Edit My Images:
    No
    Give it time. Don't overreact. If you fall out, the way others will see it, you'll come across as petulant, unreasonable and ungrateful. And you need to take responsibility for getting yourself in this pickle.

    I/we know how you feel. Others will not. A similar thing has happened to me - I did some portraits etc as a favour for a friend, they were excited to see everything so I sent them over as low-res proofs to make a selection. Ten minutes later they're all over FaceBook - uncropped, not colour corrected, not even exposure matched. I'm embarrassed and annoyed, but then the comments are all wow, they're great, who did those! Haha

    I've learned from that and now do a very quick cull and batch edit, but at the end of the day no harm done :)
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2017 at 12:07 PM
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  40. jerry12953

    jerry12953

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    7,768
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    Jeremy Moore
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    i just think you need to understand what is your responsibility and what is his - AND SO DOES HE! You are the photographer and he runs the restaurant. Neither of you should be confused about that. Then the two of you need to come to a business agreement.

    it's quite possible that some/all of the original batch of prints will not sell. Had you thought about what will happen to them? Who will own them? The kind of hybrid agreement you have at the moment is a very messy one IMO. I hope you can come to a decent solution in the end.
     

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