Do I need a grey card?

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ian-83

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Been watching a few of the Mike Browne tutorial videos on YouTube. In a couple he mentions using a grey card to help when processing pictures later in Photoshop for setting colours correctly.

What types of photography would this be best for?

Would there be any benefits using a grey card in landscape and macro photography?
 
A grey card is for setting exposure, not colours.

I tend to use grass or the back of my hand for a rough and ready grey card.
 
kendo1 said:
A grey card is for setting exposure, not colours.
Click to expand...
I must admit I'd not thought about using it for setting exposure :oops: :$ but only for colours, mainly with product photography.

With most photographs you can usually find a fairly neutral grey. With nature and landscape I prefer to use my eyes. I do have a card but it doesn't see the light of day that much if I'm honest.
 
It will also help with white balance, assuming the card is neutral grey.

If you're really worried about accurate colours then you can use a card for that but given most people like to give an artistic feel to their images I don't see much point unless you want to do some calibration or make some profiles, or are doing something where colour accuracy is important such as art photography.
 
kendo1 said:
A grey card is for setting exposure, not colours.

I tend to use grass or the back of my hand for a rough and ready grey card.
Click to expand...

I referenced setting colours as in one video I watched involved using Photoshop, one of the tools was used to select the grey card colour then used it as a preset to apply to other images? Not really into post processing yet so wasn't 100% sure what this achieved, something for me to look into.

Nawty said:
It will also help with white balance, assuming the card is neutral grey.

If you're really worried about accurate colours then you can use a card for that but given most people like to give an artistic feel to their images I don't see much point unless you want to do some calibration or make some profiles, or are doing something where colour accuracy is important such as art photography.
Click to expand...

I was thinking about when my photography skills get good enough maybe printing some image's, I understand I'll probably need to calibrate my monitor too.
 
ian-83 said:
Been watching a few of the Mike Browne tutorial videos on YouTube. In a couple he mentions using a grey card to help when processing pictures later in Photoshop for setting colours correctly.

What types of photography would this be best for?

Would there be any benefits using a grey card in landscape and macro photography?
Click to expand...

kendo1 said:
A grey card is for setting exposure, not colours.

I tend to use grass or the back of my hand for a rough and ready grey card.
Click to expand...

You need some strategy to set your white balance to get your colours right. A grey card is one way - if you can get one you're sure is properly grey. My first one wasn't.
Using a grey card for exposure.. is tricky. It relies on the card being the right shade of grey for the way your camera was calibrated, or automatically dialling in some exposure compensation.

ecoleman said:
Get yourself an expodisc. Theyve come down in price and well worth the cash if getting the correct white balance is critical without needing to fix in PP
Click to expand...

If getting colours right is critical then a calibrated target is the best way. This is probably the cheapest: http://spyder.datacolor.com/portfolio-view/spydercheckr-24/
 
juggler said:
If getting colours right is critical then a calibrated target is the best way. This is probably the cheapest: http://spyder.datacolor.com/portfolio-view/spydercheckr-24/
Click to expand...

Im pretty sure the OP is not referring to colour and neither was Mike Browne. Mike uses a grey card to set the correct white balance in one photo and then sync those settings across others from the same scene. The expodisc is another great tool for this.

Colour calibration is normally only used by people where acurate colours are critical such as product photography or where two cameras are being used and the colours need to be consistent between the two. This is where the spydercheckr is used.
 
An 18% grey card takes up no room in your bag. It takes less than 30 seconds to whip it out on location and carry out a WB check. AutoWB is only as good as the original setting which is often out of kilter. Getting the correct exposure and white balance right in camera is always a good starting point in photography.
 
As said above there is usually something in the scene which will substitute for using a Gray/Grey Card. Beware of incorrectly calibrated cards for sale cheaply on the web.

I only tend to use one in some artifical lights but most of the time its not necessary.

(Obviously depends on the capability of your camera to recognise and auto colour balance correctly in the first place).

If it is for product shots then you can spend a fortune getting a spectrometer from Sekonic

http://www.wexphotographic.com/buy-...=wxa20zwj_dc&gclid=cnbp75315cscfritgwodfjsoyg

and/or a X-rite colour checker passport,

http://www.wexphotographic.com/buy-...match=&plid=&gclid=cor2sud15cscfawp0wod_bumla

but if it is that critical, you may already have investigated these items.
 
ecoleman said:
Im pretty sure the OP is not referring to colour and neither was Mike Browne. Mike uses a grey card to set the correct white balance in one photo and then sync those settings across others from the same scene. The expodisc is another great tool for this.

Colour calibration is normally only used by people where acurate colours are critical such as product photography or where two cameras are being used and the colours need to be consistent between the two. This is where the spydercheckr is used.
Click to expand...

I think he is interested in colour - he says so twice. I confess I hadn't heard of anyone using an expodisc for WB. Weren't they originally invented to allow you to use your camera as an incident light meter?

Anyway.. it's just as quick to shoot a colour passport as it is a grey card, so I do the former. I may sometimes choose not to use the results. For instance, fully WB-corrected tungsten lighting can sometimes look odd unless you leave some of the warmth in.
 
Expodisc is a white balance filter, not a light meter. It is used for setting a custom white balance in the camera.

http://www.expodisc.com/

Whilst the OP mentions colour a number of times he is referring to white balance. Ive watched pretty much every mike browne video and he uses a grey card for setting white balance in post. He has never colour calibrated.

At the end of the day if your white balance is correct, colours will look more natural.
 
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ecoleman said:
Expodisc is a white balance filter, not a light meter. It is used for setting a custom white balance in the camera.

http://www.expodisc.com/

Whilst the OP mentions colour a number of times he is referring to white balance. Ive watched pretty much every mike browne video and he uses a grey card for setting white balance in post. He has never colour calibrated.

At the end of the day if your white balance is correct, colours will look more natural.
Click to expand...

I wonder what I'm thinking of then??? I'm sure I remember reading about something which looks a lot like an expodisc but allows a camera to do incident metering.
 
Blank_Canvas said:
I really can't see the point in this, its just a more expensive option than using an 18% grey card. It's certainly not going to be any quicker than removing a card from your bag !
Click to expand...

The expodisc sets a custom white balance in camera, a grey card will help you set a white balance in post.

Fixing everything at the computer isnt really photography is it?
 
Thank you for all the replies. I think ecoleman has seen the video I have. Think I may have got myself a bit confused by what I meant. I have rewatched the video and he uses a grey card to set white balance so the colours are seen properly not shown too warm/cool due to incorrectly set white balance.

ecoleman said:
Expodisc is a white balance filter, not a light meter. It is used for setting a custom white balance in the camera.

http://www.expodisc.com/

Whilst the OP mentions colour a number of times he is referring to white balance. Ive watched pretty much every mike browne video and he uses a grey card for setting white balance in post. He has never colour calibrated.

At the end of the day if your white balance is correct, colours will look more natural.
Click to expand...

I have seen a Lastolite foldable grey card for £20 so may go for that. I have just found on some night photos I did the white balance was out as I left the camera on auto white balance and some of the colours look off.
 
ecoleman said:
The expodisc sets a custom white balance in camera, a grey card will help you set a white balance in post.
Click to expand...

Que? You can use a grey card to set the WB in camera in just the same way. The only real differences are the price, the fact you have to screw the expodisc on the lens and the incident metering function.

ecoleman said:
Fixing everything at the computer isn't really photography is it?
Click to expand...

There's a big difference between fixing in post and planning for post production. Shooting a reference target amounts to the former.
 
ecoleman said:
The expodisc sets a custom white balance in camera, a grey card will help you set a white balance in post.

Fixing everything at the computer isnt really photography is it?
Click to expand...

I think you've confused yourself with monitor calibration. Forget the concept of post processing and your comment about "fixing everything at the computer" - the grey card has nothing to do with post-processing, computers or monitors, in fact they have been around longer than the early black and white computer monitors of the 1980s !

In my earlier post (#10) I alluded to the fact that taking the correct exposure and getting the correct WB at the time was a good place to start for RAW files and JPEGSs. The 'grey card' is used at the time of carrying out the exposures, not at the time of post-processing on the computer.

You use a 'grey card' (typically 18% grey) to set the custom white balance of your camera using ambient light, this could be inside or outside or on the subject. In the same token the ambient exposure can also been taken. It's simplicity itself, you place the card close to the subject, look through the viewfinder, fill the screen and then access the custom white balance setting and save it. You do exactly the same to set the exposure.

I've been using a grey card to get an accurate exposure for over 35 years using film cameras. It's tried and tested and it's still relevant today with the addition of being able to obtain an accurate colour rendition by using it to set a custom WB.
 
ecoleman said:
The expodisc sets a custom white balance in camera, a grey card will help you set a white balance in post.

Fixing everything at the computer isnt really photography is it?
Click to expand...

the perfect answer.. I didn't think a like was enough so I quoted it :)
 
I can't use a grey card or an expo disk ....on my 400mm lens.. anyhting near to grey or green grass will do

I am a firm believer in setting WB (if required) before I shoot and not relying on having to use RAW and then setting in the computer.. I understand some situations mean it has to be done like that.. but it shouldnt be the norm and shouldnt be the easy option and certainly shouldnt be told to begginers as the way to set white balance.. imho :)
 
ecoleman said:
Fixing everything at the computer isnt really photography is it?
Click to expand...

Did people used to say "Fixing everything in the darkroom isn't really photography is it?" Photography is the whole process. What you are talking about is using the camera. Two different things.
 
Blank_Canvas said:
In my earlier post (#10) I alluded to the fact that taking the correct exposure and getting the correct WB at the time was a good place to start for RAW files and JPEGSs. The 'grey card' is used at the time of carrying out the exposures, not at the time of post-processing on the computer.

You use a 'grey card' (typically 18% grey) to set the custom white balance of your camera using ambient light, this could be inside or outside or on the subject. In the same token the ambient exposure can also been taken. It's simplicity itself, you place the card close to the subject, look through the viewfinder, fill the screen and then access the custom white balance setting and save it. You do exactly the same to set the exposure.
Click to expand...

That's assuming your raw processor can correctly read the custom white balance info on the raw file, not all are capable of doing this accurately.
OK, this is a bit of an extreme example, as I was shooting through welding glass using a correctly taken custom white balance. As you will see, the Canon software correctly rendered the white balance settings, but the Adobe software, though it recognized a custom white balance had been used was unable to read the info contained in the raw file correctly.

RAW or RAW ??? by Steve Bennett, on Flickr
 
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Bythesea said:
Did people used to say "Fixing everything in the darkroom isn't really photography is it?" Photography is the whole process. What you are talking about is using the camera. Two different things.
Click to expand...

I subscribe to the principle of getting it right in camera first time and this includes using the right focal length, composing the image, getting the image level (if required) and the correct exposure / WB but everything else after that is just a continuum of the photographic process. Dodging, burning and masking used to be the norm in my darkroom, but now I do it in Photoshop instead.
 
So long as you end up with the result you want it doesn't matter how you got there- because nobody will ever know by looking at the picture.
 
Steve B said:
That's assuming your raw processor can correctly read the custom white balance info on the raw file, not all are capable of doing this accurately.
OK, this is a bit of an extreme example, as I was shooting through welding glass
Click to expand...

Generally Adobe software is generally spot on its the industry defacto-standard.

Like you say an 'extreme' example, people don't generally shoot through welding glass but even this is easily remedied in PP, or by colour correction If shooting with colour film.

If I've understood you correctly you took a custom WB through the glass of this subject ? Your sensor has recorded a false positive. Ironically, if you took a custom white balance using a grey card away from the glass this would have given you a more accurate rendition.
 
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Setting white balance in camera is much like using a colour correction filter to correct for the colour of the light illuminating the subject. This was the normal way of working with large format transparencies.

However Digital cameras do not have a fixed preset colour balance as transparency film did. They use various strategies to overcome this problem. All digital cameras have a built in system of colour corrections either preset or automatic. These are applied in the process of producing a jpeg file, and are are recorded in the raw data.
If you shoot raw this colour correction data is applied by your raw converter, not the camera. In the same way you can convert to any other colour balance either as a preset or a measured value using the raw converter, with out any loss in data at all. [this can not be done with Jpeg's with out a large loss of data]

Most people shooting raw will set and use the cameras suggested white balance. And only adjust to something different in the raw processor if they do not like what they see.
This can be for any number of reasons including...
Personal preference,
Artistic effect,
To help balance mixed lighting,
The camera got it wrong...
To balance a set of photographs with each other.

Colour balance can be set using a grey card or object included in the photograph, and measured during raw processing. in portraiture it can be held by the subject in the first shot and the data used for subsequent exposures.

I am sure an expodisk works well, but is rather more expensive than a grey card,

There is not much point messing with white balance on a computer if the screen is uncalibrated. It will make a bad situation worse.
 
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Blank_Canvas said:
Generally Adobe software is generally spot on its the industry defacto-standard.

Like you say an 'extreme' example, people don't generally shoot through welding glass but even this is easily remedied in PP, or by colour correction If shooting with colour correction.

If I've understood you correctly you took a custom WB through the glass of this subject ? Your sensor has recorded a false positive. Ironically, if you took a custom white balance using a grey card away from the glass this would have given you a more accurate rendition.
Click to expand...

Thats one of the reasons I showed this, Adobe dont always get it right, so dont take it for granted.

No you have misunderstood, the shot was taken using a custom white balance obtained correctly, through the welding glass, filling the frame with a grey card.
They are both the same raw file, with no processing other than converting directly to jpg
What I wanted to highlight was that in order for the custom white balance to work properly, the processing software also needs to be able to read the data stored in the raw file correctly too.
Most of the main camera manufacturers dont share their processing algorithms with Adobe, so they have to reverse engineer their software to read the raw files as well as they can and dont always get it spot on.
As an aside, Capture One did a better job than Adobe at reading the colour in this file, but I dont have that anymore to show you the difference.
 
ecoleman said:
The expodisc sets a custom white balance in camera, a grey card will help you set a white balance in post.

Fixing everything at the computer isnt really photography is it?
Click to expand...

Photography is photography whether you use the computer in your camera or the one on your desk.
The first you have some control over, the second you have more.
 
Steve B said:
Thats one of the reasons I showed this, Adobe dont always get it right, so dont take it for granted.

No you have misunderstood, the shot was taken using a custom white balance obtained correctly, through the welding glass, filling the frame with a grey card.
They are both the same raw file, with no processing other than converting directly to jpg
What I wanted to highlight was that in order for the custom white balance to work properly, the processing software also needs to be able to read the data stored in the raw file correctly too.
Most of the main camera manufacturers dont share their processing algorithms with Adobe, so they have to reverse engineer their software to read the raw files as well as they can and dont always get it spot on.
As an aside, Capture One did a better job than Adobe at reading the colour in this file, but I dont have that anymore to show you the difference.
Click to expand...

Adobe have put in a lot of work with Fuji on their raw files, and offer all the film presets as well as the Adobe standard.
They do not seem to have put in as much effort will all the other camera makes.

If you make no choice, Adobe gives their own standard colour preset, rather than a Fuji one,
the result will also be a little different if you use the SRGB colour-space rather than the Adobe RGB one. but that is another story.
 
Blank_Canvas said:
I think you've confused yourself with monitor calibration. Forget the concept of post processing and your comment about "fixing everything at the computer" - the grey card has nothing to do with post-processing, computers or monitors, in fact they have been around longer than the early black and white computer monitors of the 1980s !

In my earlier post (#10) I alluded to the fact that taking the correct exposure and getting the correct WB at the time was a good place to start for RAW files and JPEGSs. The 'grey card' is used at the time of carrying out the exposures, not at the time of post-processing on the computer.

You use a 'grey card' (typically 18% grey) to set the custom white balance of your camera using ambient light, this could be inside or outside or on the subject. In the same token the ambient exposure can also been taken. It's simplicity itself, you place the card close to the subject, look through the viewfinder, fill the screen and then access the custom white balance setting and save it. You do exactly the same to set the exposure.

I've been using a grey card to get an accurate exposure for over 35 years using film cameras. It's tried and tested and it's still relevant today with the addition of being able to obtain an accurate colour rendition by using it to set a custom WB.
Click to expand...

No, I definitely know the difference between white balance and monitor calibration.

Both the grey card and the expodisc are tools. Use which ever one you like. I don't really care.
Personally I prefer the expodisc.

Did people used to say "Fixing everything in the darkroom isn't really photography is it?" Photography is the whole process. What you are talking about is using the camera. Two different things.
Click to expand...

I never used a darkroom, but how many people fixed white balance in the dark room. Is that possible?
I'm not saying that nothing should be done on the computer but I believe that you should try to get as much correct in camera as possible. Anybody can snap a picture and fix it in photoshop.
 
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ecoleman said:
No, I definitely know the difference between white balance and monitor calibration.
Click to expand...

It's just that you said "The expodisc sets a custom white balance in camera, a grey card will help you set a white balance in post." which suggested that you didn't know the difference.
 
ecoleman said:
I never used a darkroom, but how many people fixed white balance in the dark room. Is that possible?
.
Click to expand...

Every time a colourprint is made it has the white balance fixed.
This is measured in much the same way as in camera.
It is assumed that all the light projected on to the paper adds up to a uniform grey... if it does not the light is adjusted till it does.

algorithms are used to compensate for images that include dominant colour areas.
When I first made colour prints we used individual colour filter sets to make corrections.
 
kendo1 said:
A grey card is for setting exposure, not colours.
Click to expand...

It can be used for creating a reference shot for white balance purposes. In fact, that's the main reason I have one. I don't need a grey card for exposure. I have an incident light meter for that.

ecoleman said:
I never used a darkroom, but how many people fixed white balance in the dark room. Is that possible?
Click to expand...

Yes.



ecoleman said:
I'm not saying that nothing should be done on the computer but I believe that you should try to get as much correct in camera as possible. Anybody can snap a picture and fix it in photoshop.
Click to expand...

What's wrong with dealing with white balance in post? How would you do it otherwise? Sit there taking test shots and manually adjusting the colour temp in the camera menus? Even if you were, how are you ascertaining whether it is correct or not? On the camera's crappy uncalibrated screen?


Sorry.... you're wrong. If it's important to have correct colours... shoot raw, have a reference grey card in the scene, and do it in post... on an accurately calibrated monitor.
 
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Pookeyhead said:
What's wrong with dealing with white balance in post? How would you do it otherwise? Sit there taking test shots and manually adjusting the colour temp in the camera menus? Even if you were, how are you ascertaining whether it is correct or not? On the camera's crappy uncalibrated screen?
Click to expand...

:rolleyes: By using a calibrated expodisc. Didn't you read the thread?
 
But you can do exactly the same with a grey card... just fill the frame with it.

Besides.. either method is only as accurate as the camera's auto white balance if you think about it.


Still better to do it in post.. even if you DO use the Expodisc
 
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ecoleman said:
Anybody can snap a picture and fix it in photoshop
Click to expand...

This suggests image capture isn't that important lol

Lovely long series of near rants there guys, lots of good info and quite a few strange opinions bursting through, makes for a good & typical TP read :)

I still have an Expodisc, I bought it when they first came out - £10 to anyone who wants it (I think I paid about £90 at the time !!!); I have a Grey Card too, which I also seldom use but its easier so I'm keeping that one

If I shot something where jpeg was all that was needed then yes I'd set the WB at the shooting stage as Kippax does. Generally I need more flexibility than that so I shoot everything in raw, I let the camera give its suggestion of WB and often ignore it later

I actually did 'lol' a few years ago when the Expodisc people brought out a 'warm' version. So rather than the exact WB it warmed the image up a bit, which then reminded me of Kodak's GOLD film when it came out. As I recall it was a 'warm' daylight balance film that was panned by many critics as not being true to life, but the public loved the warmer happier glow it gave their holiday snaps

The best WB setting (commercial/product use aside) is simply whatever the Hell you want it to be, and only you care whether you set that at the shooting stage or the PP stage, no-one else gives a toss :D

Dave
 
kendo1 said:
A grey card is for setting exposure, not colours.
Click to expand...
David is right. and if one gets a neutral grey card then you
get two tools for the price of one.
— an 18% reference for the exposure, to use prior to SR
— a neutral grey for WB reference to be used in PP
ecoleman said:
I believe that you should try to get as much correct in camera as possible.
Click to expand...
•
You are right but David is MORE right!
To adjust the exposure, there is a margin of 10 to 14 stops
of dynamic range in increments of 1/3; as to tweak the WB,
a margin of millions of colour steps. Further more, one may
calibrate a monitor but not a screen.
 
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