Do I need a rangefinder?

[Deleted member 21335]

Hello filmists! Part of this is GAS I am sure, but part is also serving a purpose. As I am starting to love film more and more, I can't help but thinking I need something smaller and more portable for everyday stuff than the Hasselblad. Don't get me wrong, I am not complaining about the weight etc, but it's not exactly discreet for street/candid/coffee shop type shooting. So, these rangefinders. I love the look and feel of the Leicas of course, but then I am not 100% sure I need one to spend £1000 and then wish I hadn't. There is a nice Nikon S2 for sale elsewhere at the moment and was wondering how they compare. It's much more affordable and won't lose as much if I want to move it on.

But will I miss the large negatives? Which brings me to the GW690 range. But then they are huge to accommodate the film!

Any suggestions/help very much appreciated.

 

[ped]

There are lots of rangefinders cheaper and often smaller than the Leicas. I've used a lot of them and my digital camera is a rangefinder but to be honest I sold my film leica for an OM1 and a nice lens at a fraction of the cost. The OM is actually smaller!

I say buy one anyway (M2 or M4P) and scratch the itch. Resale is good so you can let it go for what you paid without too much trouble.

Let us know how you get on

 

[Deleted member 21335]

There are lots of rangefinders cheaper and often smaller than the Leicas. I've used a lot of them and my digital camera is a rangefinder but to be honest I sold my film leica for an OM1 and a nice lens at a fraction of the cost. The OM is actually smaller!

I say buy one anyway (M2 or M4P) and scratch the itch. Resale is good so you can let it go for what you paid without too much trouble.

Let us know how you get on

Thanks Ped. Not a lot for sale at reasonable prices it seems. Been scouring the wan most of the evening. Shops like Ffordes seem very expensive compared to private ads here.

Any opinion on the S2?

 

[ped]

Have a look at MWclassic for good prices.

I've never used an S2 and you might find lenses more difficult to find. They look lovely though!!

 

[stevelmx5]

I reckon you need a nice little Olympus 35RC Gaz... ;0)

Joking and classifieds references aside, Chris is right about there being a lot of good rangefinders available outside of Leicas. I've had a few different models for not a lot of money. I really liked the Yashica Electro 35GT in both handling and results as well as the similar Petri 7S.

If you are looking for something less in your face than the 'Blad, any of the original chrome bodied Olympus rangefinders are small, light and deliver excellent results. If you prefer a newer style, the results from the XA range are always good.

Cheers
Steve

 

[stevelmx5]

I forgot to add, with regards to negative size, I always preferred 120 to 135 for the general 'wow' factor and scanning results but it's hard to combine "discrete" and "medium format" without picking up an older folder like an Ensign.

 

[joxby]

The fuji 645's aren't massive

I use 35mm for the lens range, stuff you can't really get for MF like long zooms, this sees me shooting an SLR not an RF.

If I was moved to buy a 35mm RF, I'd take a look at Voigtlander R2A or a Konica Hexar or something, I'm not really seduced by Leica.

 

[simonblue]

I would say go for a smaller SLR,their the Olympus range, Pentax MX & LX or the Nikon FM,also dont forget the Contax range

 

[sparty]

I would say go for a smaller SLR,their the Olympus range, Pentax MX & LX or the Nikon FM,also dont forget the Contax range

I agree that the Japanese slrs are a nice size but they can be a bit noisy so may not be ideal for the discreet coffeeshop candid shooting.
A small rangefinder like an XA is discreet but if you don't want to step down from MF why not a TLR?

 

[steveo_mcg]

I tried a fed 3 for a while but tbh the OM was better for me. This is partly the commie boat anchor and partly the rangefinder experience. The fed was bigger than the OM, not exactly silent and the focus patch not very bright. Even with my folder, a decent MF rf, I never really clicked with rangefinders I'll put up with it for pocketable 120 but for 35mm I'll stick to slrs.

 

[SlimShaney]

There's always the Leica CL or Minolta CLE.

Should be able to pick up a very nice condition body for £250 with working meter. They keep their value too if you ever wish to move it on.

 

[Steve Smith]

Rangefinders aren't for everyone but the only way to find out is to buy one (or borrow one).

Whilst Feds and Zorkis have their charms, if you get a bad one it might put you off rangefinders forever. A Canon QL or a Yashica Electro might be a good choice to try one out.

I have a very nice Lordomat which used to be my father's. It's not a Leica... but it was made in the same town!!

Steve.

 

[abdoujaparov]

Is it an small inconspicuous rangefinder that you want, or is it specifically something that looks like a Leica? An Olympus XA is a rangefinder that will fit in jeans pockets, but it won't scratch the Leica itch.

 

[simonblue]

I agree that the Japanese slrs are a nice size but they can be a bit noisy so may not be ideal for the discreet coffeeshop candid shooting.
A small rangefinder like an XA is discreet but if you don't want to step down from MF why not a TLR?

Thats maybe the big drawback the mirror and shutter from them,the leica are very quite and you say TLR

 

[pingu666]

folders and tlr should be quiet, and are in my experience, well so is my rb67 shutter. shame about the mirror

theres good rangefinders, them seem the most troublesome camera format tho in my experience, so avoid ebay :/

and leica's are special, magical.

 

[trevorbray]

Is it an small inconspicuous rangefinder that you want, or is it specifically something that looks like a Leica? An Olympus XA is a rangefinder that will fit in jeans pockets, but it won't scratch the Leica itch.

Yep XA. Stick it in your pocket. Virtually silent. Great lens. Aperture priority. Love mine. Really surprised how good they are actually..

 

[Deleted member 21335]

I reckon you need a nice little Olympus 35RC Gaz... ;0)

Joking and classifieds references aside, Chris is right about there being a lot of good rangefinders available outside of Leicas. I've had a few different models for not a lot of money. I really liked the Yashica Electro 35GT in both handling and results as well as the similar Petri 7S.

If you are looking for something less in your face than the 'Blad, any of the original chrome bodied Olympus rangefinders are small, light and deliver excellent results. If you prefer a newer style, the results from the XA range are always good.

Cheers
Steve

I did see your 35C in the classifieds and it does look beautiful. ell done on the restore job. Thanks for the advice.

The fuji 645's aren't massive

I use 35mm for the lens range, stuff you can't really get for MF like long zooms, this sees me shooting an SLR not an RF.

If I was moved to buy a 35mm RF, I'd take a look at Voigtlander R2A or a Konica Hexar or something, I'm not really seduced by Leica.

Hmmmm, more options to think about. Thanks for the suggestions.

I would say go for a smaller SLR,their the Olympus range, Pentax MX & LX or the Nikon FM,also dont forget the Contax range

I think I have decided against an SLR, I have digital SLR's and a Zenit 35mm already.

I agree that the Japanese slrs are a nice size but they can be a bit noisy so may not be ideal for the discreet coffeeshop candid shooting.
A small rangefinder like an XA is discreet but if you don't want to step down from MF why not a TLR?

I'd love a TLR. Keep eyeing up Rolleiflex'. Stop tempting me. :bang:

Is it an small inconspicuous rangefinder that you want, or is it specifically something that looks like a Leica? An Olympus XA is a rangefinder that will fit in jeans pockets, but it won't scratch the Leica itch.

I think I also want something that looks/feels a bit special too.

folders and tlr should be quiet, and are in my experience, well so is my rb67 shutter. shame about the mirror

theres good rangefinders, them seem the most troublesome camera format tho in my experience, so avoid ebay :/

and leica's are special, magical.

Are they an extra £400 magical though?

 

[stevelmx5]

If you fancy trying a TLR, you can pick up a good condition Yashica Mat for under £100 or a 124-G if you want a built in meter for not much over £100.

I've used both and they're really nice to use. You still have the benefit of big negatives without the loud mirror or bulky weight. You also won't lose anything on them if you decide to sell it on.

View attachment 25456

View attachment 25455

 

[osh]

I briefly owned a Leica. It was a lovely camera, and a pleasure to use, but I was always conscious that it had a very similar image quality to much cheaper 35mm cameras and I really do prefer medium format. So I sold it, and bought a Fuji GF670 instead. There's not much difference in terms of weight, and the Fuji's also pretty portable. Lovely to use too (and quieter than a Leica) and a very interesting looking camera.

 

[Andysnap]

My tuppence worth... Voigtlander.. I would look at this site

https://www.cameraquest.com/classics.htm

Its a bit messy but there is an enormous amount of info on rangefinders on here, especially Voigtlander. I would suggest an R, R2 or R3 as these have an on board rangefinder, some of the earlier ones (L and T) do not and it adds extra cost having to buy one for each focal length of lens.
I had an R3A with the Voigtlander Nokton 40mm f1.4 and it is a classic combo, small, lightweight, brilliant build quality and much cheaper than the equivalent Leica offerings and, in my opinion, within a gnats nudger of IQ.

This one was taken with the above pair on Kodak Ektar 100.

 

[-Oy-]

The Fuji GS645S is my "want a rangefinder but love 120" weapon of choice. It' isn't small however, and the rangefinder is not that clear - but you're welcome to a play with it if you like.

 

[skysh4rk]

Do you need a rangefinder? Probably not.

Do you want a rangefinder? Possibly so.

The thing that I don't particularly like about rangefinders is that everything is in focus in the viewfinder and the viewfinders of some of these rangefinder cameras can be quite busy (between frame lines and being able to see what's outside these frame lines). Also, with regard to 135 rangefinders, most of these don't have leaf shutters like their medium format rangefinder counterparts, which seems a missed opportunity.

I'd go for a TLR personally, but I'm admittedly not very fond of 135 format with its small size and 3:2 aspect ratio.

It's much more affordable and won't lose as much if I want to move it on.

If you buy wisely, you shouldn't really be losing much no matter what film camera you purchase. I'd say that the market on film cameras has already bottomed out, so the only way is up really.

 

[Andysnap]

Oooh.... Voigtlander

Brilliant camera for street shooting, really quiet and discreet.

 

[Deleted member 21335]

If you fancy trying a TLR, you can pick up a good condition Yashica Mat for under £100 or a 124-G if you want a built in meter for not much over £100.

I've used both and they're really nice to use. You still have the benefit of big negatives without the loud mirror or bulky weight. You also won't lose anything on them if you decide to sell it on.

Thanks. I have considered a TLR. Still considering.

I briefly owned a Leica. It was a lovely camera, and a pleasure to use, but I was always conscious that it had a very similar image quality to much cheaper 35mm cameras and I really do prefer medium format. So I sold it, and bought a Fuji GF670 instead. There's not much difference in terms of weight, and the Fuji's also pretty portable. Lovely to use too (and quieter than a Leica) and a very interesting looking camera.

I'd love a GF670 but that's way more than I can afford to spend at the moment unfortunately. That's why I have been considering the GW690 instead.

The Fuji GS645S is my "want a rangefinder but love 120" weapon of choice. It' isn't small however, and the rangefinder is not that clear - but you're welcome to a play with it if you like.

Thanks Oy, I may take you up on that.

Do you need a rangefinder? Probably not.

Do you want a rangefinder? Possibly so.

The thing that I don't particularly like about rangefinders is that everything is in focus in the viewfinder and the viewfinders of some of these rangefinder cameras can be quite busy (between frame lines and being able to see what's outside these frame lines). Also, with regard to 135 rangefinders, most of these don't have leaf shutters like their medium format rangefinder counterparts, which seems a missed opportunity.

I'd go for a TLR personally, but I'm admittedly not very fond of 135 format with its small size and 3:2 aspect ratio.



If you buy wisely, you shouldn't really be losing much no matter what film camera you purchase. I'd say that the market on film cameras has already bottomed out, so the only way is up really.

Your reasons for not getting one are also my concerns. I do love the MF negatives! I don't have a problem with the 3:2 ration though but then I do shoot digital.

Oooh.... Voigtlander


Brilliant camera for street shooting, really quiet and discreet.

Too much choice now! I think, THINK, I have narrowed it down to one of these two....

Or

But when I see the fuji next to a persons face, it looks enormous!!

 

[skysh4rk]

As much as I'm not a huge rangefinder fan, have you considered the Mamiya 6, Mamiya 7, or Bronica RF645? The lenses for these systems are so $h!t hot that even I'd consider using a rangefinder camera for these.

 

[Deleted member 21335]

As much as I'm not a huge rangefinder fan, have you considered the Mamiya 6, Mamiya 7, or Bronica RF645? The lenses for these systems are so $h!t hot that even I'd consider using a rangefinder camera for these.

For the systems that I have posted? Really? All the on the line reviews I have read seem really good.

I have considered the 7 but it's also a little bit out of my budget at the moment.

 

[TheBigYin]

Oooh.... Voigtlander

Brilliant camera for street shooting, really quiet and discreet.

If I could get on with rangefinders (I can't - i've tried quite a few of 'em and I just can't break the SLR conditioning) then the R3a would probably be the one I'd go for to be honest. I've got a Fed 3a and a Yashica Electro 35 which are fine cameras in their own ways, but weigh pretty much the same as my A1 and a 50mm 1.4, so they have no real advantage (other than being handy anti-personnel devices in the case of the fed3a - useful when accosted during street photography...) but the Bessa is smaller, lighter, much better handling, and with a much brighter viewfinder and focusing patch - I still have a soft spot for one, and maybe one day i'll give rangefinders another try.

 

[skysh4rk]

For the systems that I have posted? Really? All the on the line reviews I have read seem really good.

I have considered the 7 but it's also a little bit out of my budget at the moment.

Sorry, there might be a slight misunderstanding. I wasn't really commenting positively or negatively on the cameras that you mentioned, I was just saying that I thought that those three cameras in particular have lenses that stand above and beyond anything else in the rangefinder format. So much so, in fact, that I'd be willing to consider using a rangefinder.

At the end of the day though, if any camera ticks the boxes you want ticked, then go for it.

 

[Deleted member 21335]

Sorry, there might be a slight misunderstanding. I wasn't really commenting positively or negatively on the cameras that you mentioned, I was just saying that I thought that those three cameras in particular have lenses that stand above and beyond anything else in the rangefinder format. So much so, in fact, that I'd be willing to consider using a rangefinder.

At the end of the day though, if any camera ticks the boxes you want ticked, then go for it.

Ah I see. Thanks for clarifying. I'll keep thinking about it. Perhaps the money would be better spend on a few boxes of film and a trip somewhere with the hasselblad! I have just received some Velvia back of that Austin Healey I shot last week and the frames look beautiful (hope they are ok once scanned after work!). I do love the large negs.

 

[steveo_mcg]

I had very similar thoughts, I was going to get a tlr for a walk around but decided to get a good shoulder bag for RB67 and use that more.

 

[Andysnap]

Ive had two of the big Fuji GW`s a mk I and a mk III and the lenses are stunning but they are massive and the rangefinder patch is very small and not very bright. It really isn't (IMHO) much good for candid street photography. If you want something different from the 'blad then I wouldn't chose a Fuji. Definitely not pocket sized.
As TBY says the patch in the Voigtlander is very bright, even brighter than the Leica patch.

 

[sparty]

I'd love a TLR. Keep eyeing up Rolleiflex'. Stop tempting me. :banghead:

A decent Rollei Automat would only set you back £100 - £150 ;-)
A Yashica as pointed out elsewhere is even cheaper.

I love rangefinders as an object to play with or admire but I never really seem to get along with them in use. And I've tried loads.
I'd love a Fuji 6x9 for travel or landscapes though.
I still reckon a TLR or an XA is ideal for your candid/coffeeshop antics. The XA makes you invisible!!

 

[joxby]

"do I need a rangefinder ?"

yes...

how about a TLR.....


it could just be me but if somebody suggested a 5x4 sinar monorail, it's still only be marginally further from an RF than the million miles a TLR is..lol.

or is it... a Crown Graphic is an RF, Mamiya Universal......MPP.....Polaroid 600, maybe the bigger and dafter looking it is the more likely it is to be ignored, or seen to pose no threat...or something.....I dunno

 

[ped]

I don't think there's anything really to replace a true 35mm rangefinder if you're wanting to try the experience. Nothing else works, looks and feels like one. It opens up a whole new way of shooting - more 'free and easy' I call it - with my Epson, because it's digital, I can bring the camera up and capture what I'm looking at, with it's 1:1 viewfinder (also on the Bessa R3) it's the most natural thing in the world and the camera seems invisible. Whilst I'm not remotely bothered about how loud a camera is, they are quiet, which seems rather important to some people. There's also nothing like being able to shoot with both eyes open, and have the framelines just superimposed in front of you. It's excellent for composing shots and waiting for things to enter the frame.

In comparison when I shoot film, I'm slightly more careful, so framing is more important to me and I'm probably subconsciously more deliberate. As @osh said, the body doesn't make much difference to the image QUALITY, but the nice thing about most rangefinders is that the bodies become important in terms of their feel and mechanics in a way which seems less important on something more automated.

Whilst I liked my M4P I felt that it was an expensive box. I'm happier with my OM1 and f1.2 lens that cost me £100 all in (equivalent in Leica would be another two zeros) and still love my digital RF as it just feels so invisible and natural.

So after that ramble I'd recommend getting a Bessa R3 for these reasons:

• Small. A RF should be, IMO
• Looks lovely and feels great
• 1:1 viewfinder. You won't look back, trust me. There's nothing like it.
• M or A models (Mechanical or AE - go for the M)
• Some unusual colours about (grey looks lovely)
• Relatively cheap
• Perfect framelines for the equally well priced Voigtlander 40mm f1.4

Cheers
ped

 

[ChrisR]

The R3A gives aperture priority, IIRC. But does it also do manual? I sometimes miss having aperture priority on my MX, nice to know you can just lift the camera and get a shot... but in the end I didn't like that my ME had no manual (exposure compensation is not the same!)...

 

[ped]

The R3A gives aperture priority, IIRC. But does it also do manual? I sometimes miss having aperture priority on my MX, nice to know you can just lift the camera and get a shot... but in the end I didn't like that my ME had no manual (exposure compensation is not the same!)...

Yep it can still do manual but the shutter is reliant on batteries, a bit like the difference between an OM1 and OM2 I think

 

[Deleted member 21335]

Thanks again for all the further replies. There is sooo much choice out there. I have been into Real Camera today in Manchester and had a play. I went in to buy and spent 20-30 minutes with the guy looking at and playing with things and generally learning. I don't like to waste peoples time in shops, but sorry to say, I didn't end up buying anything. I M2 was beautiful though. Just winding it on and shooting with it feels really nice. You can tell it is quality. Recently serviced too so no worries there. He pulled out a few lenses for me to look at too. The Summicron 50mm was what I went in with in mind and it looks lovely, although to be honest, I think I would prefer something wider. He had a Voigtlander 35mm F2.5 which I tried which I really liked the operation of. He was telling me that it was a superb lens in every way, much better than the F1.4 variant. But I couldn't get past the fact that is was 'only' F2.5. Being someone who generally shoots mf DSLR at F2.0 or below most of the time, I couldn't help but feel I would wish it was faster.

So I want for a brew to have a think about things. The M2 + Summicron was priced at £850 altogether which seems about the right ball park after doing some research. I honestly think that if there was a faster 35mm there, I would now own one. Alas, I didn't go back. I still have my £850 and feel no sadder for it.

I then put a roll through the Hasselblad and felt great again. I still think I would love something smaller and rangefinder ish, just not today. Needs more thinking about. Oh and then I played with my friends X100 again to convince myself I definitely wanted 35mm focal length and I do, but now I also want an X100. :bang: . Off to develop this roll of Delta 100!

 

[simon ess]

My two pence worth, from a purely personal point of view, for what it's worth.

1. I don't understand the "Leica itch," apart from just wanting a Leica. That's an expensive want.

2. If I wanted to try a rangefinder it would definitely be a Bessa or Zeiss.

3. My newly acquired Nikon FG does everything I need in a small film camera.

It's the same size as.....

4. The X100s which I also love.

5. It's all secondary to my MF Bronica anyway.

 

[Andysnap]

I also spent half an hour in Real Camera today.... And also looked at rangefinders, and also didn't buy anything but I loved the voigtlander R3s which has an amazing Nikon S fit 50mm pancake lens, luvverly.

 

[Deleted member 21335]

My two pence worth, from a purely personal point of view, for what it's worth.

1. I don't understand the "Leica itch," apart from just wanting a Leica. That's an expensive want.

2. If I wanted to try a rangefinder it would definitely be a Bessa or Zeiss.

3. My newly acquired Nikon FG does everything I need in a small film camera.

It's the same size as.....

4. The X100s which I also love.

5. It's all secondary to my MF Bronica anyway.

Your opinion & experience is appreciated.

I think points 4 & 5 are mostly what I am leaning towards and agreeing with at the moment. I think 99% of the time, for personal stuff, I will pick up the Hasselblad. I think An X100 of some description may give me the small camera form factor I am looking for and the original can be had for IRO £300 now. But I do love film. I have just developed a roll of 120 which is hanging to dry and it's so much fun and a great feeling of satisfaction which you don't get with digital.