Do I need Insurance?

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Let me make myself clear on this as it might change things slightly, I am NOT being paid, I have NO intention of doing anything similar ever again, just doing someone a Favour for FREE! The Hotel owner has offered a meal as a thank you, I have not excepted, but who knows, one day I might.

So, do I need insurance to take pictures (with the owners permission) inside and outside of a Hotel?

What if I did this shoot with a Iphone, do I still need insurance?

What about people who are encouraged to post reviews and pictures on Trip Adviser?



Am I looking for way covering myself without insurance........... Yes!
 
The Greek said:
Let me make myself clear on this as it might change things slightly, I am NOT being paid, I have NO intention of doing anything similar ever again, just doing someone a Favour for FREE! The Hotel owner has offered a meal as a thank you, I have not excepted, but who knows, one day I might.

So, do I need insurance to take pictures (with the owners permission) inside and outside of a Hotel?

What if I did this shoot with a Iphone, do I still need insurance?

What about people who are encouraged to post reviews and pictures on Trip Adviser?



Am I looking for way covering myself without insurance........... Yes!
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Firstly it doesn't matter what you use to take the photographs.

The Greek said:
I have been asked to photograph a local Hotel. They would like pictures of bedrooms, restaurant, spa etc, for use on their website and brochures, in return, I get dinner for four and a couple of bottles of wine.
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You are providing a service to the hotel owner, you are not just another guest taking photos for their own use, or to add to your Tripadvisor account.
 
Daryl said:
Sorry Steve, you leave something in wrong place or cause an incident the Tog is liable.

If what you say is the case then why bother getting insured? I use the church and the Hotels insurance in future then shall I? What a Crock!!!!
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The rules same for Joe public how many of them have public liability insurance?
 
gramps said:
Firstly it doesn't matter what you use to take the photographs.



You are providing a service to the hotel owner, you are not just another guest taking photos for their own use, or to add to your Tripadvisor account.
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Thank You! You have solved my problem.

Book a room as a paying guest, take the pictures, upload to Flickr and Facebook, job done, everyone's happy.

No insurance or tax required.
 
neil_g said:
bit of an odd thread.. OP asks "do i need insurance", concensus is "yes its a good idea", OP then tries to think of ways around needing insurance, meanwhile splog disagrees with everyone :D
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Neil, the reason I ask the question " Do I need Insurance" is becouse, I was hoping
as I'm not a pro and doing this for freeish to help someone out, that I could get round the insurance bit.

If I was being paid, I would not hesitate in purchasing insurance or paying tax.
 
The Greek said:
My question is, do I need insurance
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The answer to your question in post #1 is ...NO.

What you will find in the rest of thread is people answering the question you did not ask.. ie... Should you get insurance?

My answer to that would also be NO given the risk assesment. If this was a bigger job or a more regular job then my answer would be YES

PS From your first post you are being paid.. albiet not money.. moving the goalposts furthur down the thread just confuses..
 
OK, it's a one-off job, so by the time he declares it taxable and pays for insurance he's going to be how much out of pocket?? :shrug:

Go do the job, watch what you're doing, enjoy the meal/wine then get on with your life.... :D
 
neil_g said:
bit of an odd thread.. OP asks "do i need insurance", concensus is "yes its a good idea", OP then tries to think of ways around needing insurance, meanwhile splog disagrees with everyone :D
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Why is it that whenever Splog disagrees I'm always left feeling more certain I'm right? :lol:

I always get suspicious when I find myself agreeing with Splog.. :suspect:


And you missed the bit about the OP desperately playing with words to try and persuade himself he's not being paid (when we all know he is).


And if someone can tell me the relevance of the Tripadvisor sidetrack I'd be much appreciated.. I always though Tripadvisor was full of people nicking images from Flickr (and that's a whole other thread).. ..
 
Kipax and Dekhog, thanks for the replies.

Alastair, I'm Not, repeat NOT being paid!
If you took some pictures for me, and didn't charge me, its called Free when I went to school.
Now, if I thought to myself, that Alastair is a really nice bloke, I will invite him round for a meal and a few drinks one day, is that payment or a thank you?

As for moving goalposts, I'm trying to find the best way of doing this without the need of insurance.
 
KIPAX said:
The answer to your question in post #1 is ...NO.
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No it isn't ... that's the answer to the question does he want insurance - does he need it to provide a service ... Yes he does.


KIPAX said:
Should you get insurance?

My answer to that would also be NO given the risk assesment. If this was a bigger job or a more regular job then my answer would be YES
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The size or frequency is irrelevant to the question, if he needs it for 3, 6, 500 times, he needs it for once - if he needs it for a Dorchester Hotel job, he needs it for this hotel job!
 
gramps said:
The size or frequency is irrelevant to the question, if he needs it for 3, 6, 500 times, he needs it for once - if he needs it for a Dorchester Hotel job, he needs it for this hotel job!
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wrong..because he does NOT need it.. its not a requirement..therefore its down to should he... thats when the above comes into play and you do a risk assesment


The Greek said:
I have been asked to photograph a local Hotel. They would like pictures of bedrooms, restaurant, spa etc, for use on their website and brochures, in return, I get dinner for four and a couple of bottles of wine. .
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That my friend.. is being paid :) changing it later in the thread is moving the goalposts hence my comment :)
 
gramps said:
No it isn't ... that's the answer to the question does he want insurance - does he need it to provide a service ... Yes he does.!
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no he doesnt.. show me anything anywhere that backs up your argument (as in debate) that PL is a requirement to do this job?
 
Surely the simple answer would be to take out insurance cover for the day which should be quite cheap instead of getting yourself into all sorts of bother trying to make excuses for not needing it.

To answer your question, no you don't need it but if you can get it cheap (less than the value of a meal and whatever you value the pictures for your portfolio at) you'd be stupid not to.
 
The Greek said:
Alastair, I'm Not, repeat NOT being paid!
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The Greek said:
I have been asked to photograph a local Hotel. They would like pictures of bedrooms, restaurant, spa etc, for use on their website and brochures, in return, I get dinner for four and a couple of bottles of wine.
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Reward as a condition of service rendered.. sounds like payment to me (and HMRC define it as payment in kind). At a rough guess, I'd say payment to the value of around £200+ for a meal for four plus wine.

It's your own words.. .. I'm pretty confident you're on your own in thinking you're not being paid*.


As already mentioned, strictly speaking you do not legally need liability insurance. So you're free to do as you please. Should you have insurance? Yes. If you're going to do it without insurance you'd need to take all reasonable precautions to prevent harm or loss (which you legally need to do anyway). And again, whilst it's not legally a requirement for you to write down these precautions it does make it easier for you of something does happen in spite of your precautions.


*as you seem to be completely lacking in imagination and this thread is getting tiresome.. let's suppose that you've agreed to take some photographs for a friend who owns a hotel, let's for a moment imagine that these photos include some of the restaurant in the evening with guests enjoying dinner and wine. It would be a shame to waste the food and the wine once the bottle was opened, wouldn't it? And the meal being on the table ready to eat was an essential part of the favour you were doing, and not an unconnected conditional reward for doing it? And your wife and two friends were not attending a meal they were also doing this friend a favour by being models? and the reason there's three models for a dinner for four is that the camera view needs to be where the fourth person is sitting?
 
KIPAX said:
wrong..because he does NOT need it.. its not a requirement..therefore its down to should he... thats when the above comes into play and you do a risk assesment
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KIPAX said:
no he doesnt.. show me anything anywhere that backs up your argument (as in debate) that PL is a requirement to do this job?
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Okay, it's splitting hairs but I'll go along with you ... does he commit a criminal offence if he does this job without insurance ... No ... BUT, and it's a big BUT if anything goes wrong he's up the creek without a paddle and could well take others up the creek with him ... AND it could then become a criminal offence!


IMO he's a fool to provide any service without having the necessary insurance to cover both himself and any third-parties from possible harm or loss - to put himself and others at such a possible risk for a meal and a bottle of wine is moreover IMO insane!
 
The risk is close to zero if the op is sensible about how he does it.
 
neil_g said:
i dont think anyone sets out to have an accident etc :)
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Correct, but the OP also needs to take into consideration that although one of the hotel guests will not deliberately go out to fall over his camera bag/tripod, there will always be a certain kind of idiot that will do it anyway!

Insane not to have insurance IMHO
 
gramps said:
Okay, it's splitting hairs
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no its not.. he does NOT need insurance.. there is no splitting hairs.. its clear cut..



gramps said:
to put himself and others at such a possible risk for a meal and a bottle of wine is moreover IMO insane!
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your serious arnt you? he is going to photograph some hotel rooms :) dont you think your being a bit of a drama queen?
 
KIPAX said:
no its not.. he does NOT need insurance.. there is no splitting hairs.. its clear cut..





your serious arnt you? he is going to photograph some hotel rooms :) dont you think your being a bit of a drama queen?
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...because its an absolute impossibility that anything could happen whilst doing this isnt it?
 
Nikon_Nick said:
...because its an absolute impossibility that anything could happen whilst doing this isnt it?
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at the risk of going round in circles... doing a risk assesment of someone doing someone a favour photographing some hotel rooms..

i am not one for taking risks.. but come on... to call it insane and putting himself and guests at risk.. going a bit far surely ? :)
 
KIPAX said:
at the risk of going round in circles... doing a risk assesment of someone doing someone a favour photographing some hotel rooms..

i am not one for taking risks.. but come on... to call it insane and putting himself and guests at risk.. going a bit far surely ? :)
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Exactly!
 
KIPAX said:
at the risk of going round in circles... doing a risk assesment of someone doing someone a favour photographing some hotel rooms..

i am not one for taking risks.. but come on... to call it insane and putting himself and guests at risk.. going a bit far surely ? :)
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No it's taking a risk with his and others wellbeing ... probably nothing will happen but if the worse did, what good would your advice be?
Drama Queen? I know which side I would rather err on.
 
Dont get me wrong, I completely agree that given the situation the OP finds himself in, he could probably do the job without a problem, and without the need for insurance...BUT, there is always that element (no matter how miniscule) of risk when it involves working anywhere in the vicinity of the general public.

Does the cost of insurance for 1 day out way that risk?
 
Insurance has always been about risk assessment. Personally in the situation described I wouldn't get insurance either. If something happened you would easily be able to cover it anyway by saying you werent doing it for the hotel but for a hobby. Because if something did actually happen it would be before you were given the free meal and before you had given then the pics or the service.

So unless it was written in a contract there would be zero proof that you were even doing this for payment in kind. Do the job, if someone dies they'll die at the scene and you can say you are taking personal pics. By the time your meal comes and you haven't paid for it you are no longer likely to injure anyone.
 
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Do I NEED insurance? - No, it is not a legal requirement.
Is it a good idea to get insurance? - Yes
Am I being paid for it? - Yes, being paid in kind ie the meal, it doesn't have to be cash to be considered pay.

Just like I don't NEED house insurance but it is a good idea to get it, but I do need car insurance, it's a legal requirement if you own a car.

What are the chances of needing to claim on the PL insurance? Minimal but it does happen. Nobody goes out on purpose to have an accident (such as trip over you bag) but there are 10 of thousands of these accidents every year. {unless of course you bump into one of those scammers who purposely have an 'accident' in order to claim on your insurance.}

Just about every hotel I have stayed in has had the odd child or two running for something at sometime - an accident waiting to happen and you often see them bump into someone. If said child bumped into you carrying your camera and cut their head you'd be glad of the insurance.

In the end it is up to the OP to decide if he wants to risk it as opposed to the minimal costs of 1 day's insurance.
 
Quick question to the OP. Should you turn down this shoot today and tell the hotel owner you can not help him would you still be getting your free meal?

I dont really understand this. You asked a question and dont seem to be excepting the majority of peoples opinions. Why bother asking.
 
so far we have.. burning down the hotel.. could lead to a criminal offence.. if someone dies and allsorts of other stuff... ..Now we are comparing it to sinking the titanic

hes photogrpahing bedrooms, restraunt and a spa.. hes gotta be some kind of wierd photogrpaher to burn down the hotel , kill half the guests then go to prison and while doing all that he sinks a ship

what are you people smoking ?:)
 
joescrivens said:
So unless it was written in a contract there would be zero proof that you were even doing this for payment in kind. Do the job, if someone dies they'll die at the scene and you can say you are taking personal pics. By the time your meal comes and you haven't paid for it you are no longer likely to injure anyone.
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Would the hotel be happy for a claim to be put in to their insurance company? I doubt it.

If they were and were found out then they would be done for insurance fraud.

Lots of assumptions of course.
 
Tony, i think the point is thinking of the very worst case what ifs. That what insurance is for. The one thing that you didnt expect happening, happening.
 
interesting but pessimistic! I hate the 'what if' scenarios, and in today's society it is ridiculous how there is always someone at fault if an accident is caused.

My initial thoughts were simply, sod off, insurance for this? But then after reading all the replies, it does just seem easier rather than not to bother. The thing that would annoy me is that it would be sods law that the insurance would no doubt try washing their hands of it and pass it on to the hotel as their problem.

Anyway, my question is, how much would insurance for one day cost?
 
Lemming like guests aside there are a whole host of fixtures, fittings, and breakable items in hotels which might fall foul of a tripod leg, shoulder bag or dangling camera. Having worked in listed properties and stately homes you soon learn (read: large wobbling vase on a pedestal) to be pretty careful but there isn't ever a guarantee. Personally I wouldn't go near water without pro camera insurance, and 3PL on a job especially if I was using any kind of flash.

On a pro job you'd expect the hotel to demand to see evidence of the 3PL, and to pay you in Sterling on production of an invoice. The fact this appears to be food for photography doesn't alter the risk or the likelihood of the hotel expecting your insurance, or by default you personally to take care of any damages or litigation. They won't take it on themselves because you were doing them a favour and nor would their insurers.

That said and done it's not a legal thing as has pretty much been thrashed out to death before me so the question is in the immortal words of Clint Eastwood - "Do you feel lucky ?"

Anyway, my question is, how much would insurance for one day cost?
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Probably about 40-60% of what it costs for a years 3PL.
 
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Ploddles said:
Would the hotel be happy for a claim to be put in to their insurance company? I doubt it.

If they were and were found out then they would be done for insurance fraud.

Lots of assumptions of course.
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He doesn't need the hotel to be on his side, unless there is a contract they wouldn't be able to prove he was there for work unless he had accepted the meal, not paid and then delivered the goods, after which point there would not be any accidents as he would no longer be in the hotel taking the photographs.
 
pentaprison said:
I feel that I hardly dare to mention this, but...

Don't forget that if you are going to drive there then you'll need to ensure that you have "occasional business use" on your car insurance too.

(I really hate the way the culture of blame has got into our very souls. :shake:, where will it all end?)
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This is the only bit I'd be worried about. In terms of the balance of probability, a road accident is perhaps more likely and the possible sums involved, even for a few dents, could run into thousands.

Or worse. And the bigger the claim, the more closely it will looked into and the more likely you'll get rumbled. Occasional business use costs next to nothing if you just tick the box when applying.
 
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