Drone near miss at Heathrow

Here in France they develop legislation for most things and droves/UAV's joined the club in 2012. Some of the more relevant (to this thread) points to note are;
No flying within 5 km of an active airfield and within 15 km of an airport (runway longer than 1200m).
No flying from, or over, designated public spaces in urban locations.
No flying after sunset.
Landowners permission is needed for flights over private property
Photos obtained must not show the property of others (without permission) and identifiable persons in public places must give permission for the use/publication of any photos (whether commercial or non-commerciial).

Making a law doesn't necessarily mean that people will adhere to it but it does show that the potential problems have been recognised.

Bob
 
edster said:
Ok a slight exaggeration, but there have been at least 8 or 9 reports in the press this year of near misses, not to mention the guy who crashed one over a nuclear power station last year and a guy who is being prosecuted for flying one over Derby County and Nottingham Forest's ground during matches (illegal). They are completely banned in the States unless you get express permission from the U.S. equivalent of the CAA as there have been numerous near misses and a collision.

It's all there, in the media. Go read.
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So somebody does something illegal and is prosecuted for it? Not sure of the issue
 
Canon Bob said:
Here in France they develop legislation for most things and droves/UAV's joined the club in 2012. Some of the more relevant (to this thread) points to note are;
No flying within 5 km of an active airfield and within 15 km of an airport (runway longer than 1200m).
No flying from, or over, designated public spaces in urban locations.
No flying after sunset.
Landowners permission is needed for flights over private property
Photos obtained must not show the property of others (without permission) and identifiable persons in public places must give permission for the use/publication of any photos (whether commercial or non-commerciial).

Making a law doesn't necessarily mean that people will adhere to it but it does show that the potential problems have been recognised.

Bob
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Those rules are already covered in detail in the UK. In that you aint allowed to fly within an ATZ or in controlled airs[ace (without relevant permission) Nor are you allowed to fly in urban (or congested spaces). Of course you are allowed to photograph people and property in the UK (within other existing laws) and publish without permission (I seem to remember this is different from France anyway). Its long established that UK airspace is not covered by who owns the ground.

https://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=1995

why do we need new rules? although I do agree better enforcement of existing ones is possibly needed. If you're going to fly a drone (or kite or anything else) anywhere it could possibly be ingested into an engine then yes you need the book throwing at you, but it probably will be.
 
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edster said:
No issue there mate. Never said there was.
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cool, people doing illegal and stupid things seems to come up a lot as justification for further rules. They've been caught and publicly punished. I honestly think that people buy these, don't realise there is an issue with where they fly them and a few high profile cases are just needed as a reminder
 
boyfalldown said:
Those rules are already covered in detail in the UK. In that you aint allowed to fly within an ATZ or in controlled airs[ace (without relevant permission)
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Don't the rules to which you're referring only apply to craft over 7 kgs in weight in the UK?

Bob
 
Canon Bob said:
Don't the rules to which you're referring only apply to craft over 7 kgs in weight in the UK?

Bob
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Nope, there are stricter rules for craft over 7kgs in the UK (& stricter again over 20kg) but they apply to all craft
 
boyfalldown said:
Those rules are already covered in detail in the UK. In that you aint allowed to fly within an ATZ or in controlled airs[ace (without relevant permission) Nor are you allowed to fly in urban (or congested spaces). Of course you are allowed to photograph people and property in the UK (within other existing laws) and publish without permission (I seem to remember this is different from France anyway). Its long established that UK airspace is not covered by who owns the ground.

https://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=1995

why do we need new rules? although I do agree better enforcement of existing ones is possibly needed. If you're going to fly a drone (or kite or anything else) anywhere it could possibly be ingested into an engine then yes you need the book throwing at you, but it probably will be.
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We (that is General Aviation) have new rules of the air, (or a revamp of the old ones anyway) EASA have just introduced SERA. I wonder if there will be pan European drone rules to come?
 
Ok, slightly off topic but another question for you drone guys, what is your flight visibility minima?
 
Brian_of_Bozeat said:
We (that is General Aviation) have new rules of the air, (or a revamp of the old ones anyway) EASA have just introduced SERA. I wonder if there will be pan European drone rules to come?
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Maybe, be interesting to see. I always confused as to why they'd change it just for drones and not other models to?
 
Brian_of_Bozeat said:
Ok, slightly off topic but another question for you drone guys, what is your flight visibility minima?
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It's a good question. The rules dictate that you must maintain line of sight at all time, so I guess that covers any minima issues. Common sense would hopefully stop anyone flying in low visibility conditions.
 
boyfalldown said:
Nope, there are stricter rules for craft over 7kgs in the UK (& stricter again over 20kg) but they apply to all craft
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That must be a recent change then. My father-in-law used to fly RC models at a club within the London ATZ and they had a 7kg limit unless they sought permission.

Bob
 
Canon Bob said:
That must be a recent change then. My father-in-law used to fly RC models at a club within the London ATZ and they had a 7kg limit unless they sought permission.

Bob
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Was that as a result of the agreement between the club & ATC or the CAA?
 
rpsmith79 said:
Aren't aeroplane engines designed to withstand a frozen turkey being chucked into them, to simulate hitting bird in flight or something............. or is that just an urban myth
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The chicken gun does exist, but they're not frozen.

They aren't to see if an engine is undamaged, but to check that the damaged parts remain within the engine cowling and that the fire is manageable.
 
edster said:
It's a good question. The rules dictate that you must maintain line of sight at all time, so I guess that covers any minima issues. Common sense would hopefully stop anyone flying in low visibility conditions.
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The reason I ask is because of what is known as VMC (visual meteorological conditions). Which are a requirement of VFR (visual flight rules) I wondered if you also had to comply with any such rules. It's interesting that you say common sense should prevent flying in poor visibility, the number of balloons I've seen fly off in fog, the pilots knowing that it is forecast to warm out... Presumably flying above the fog until it does... Those guys have a lot to lose if they have it wrong (including their lives).
 
Brian_of_Bozeat said:
Ok, slightly off topic but another question for you drone guys, what is your flight visibility minima?
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5km.
The "normal" is to be flight-tested for VLoS operations, which is 500m max from operator and up to 400ft high.
You can apply for an EVLoS (extended) or BVLoS (beyond) Permission For Aerial Work, but I think it would be difficult for a new operator to obtain either.
 
Nostromo said:
Some people just don't think.
Can you imagine if that drone had got sucked into the engine.
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Would a small largely plastic drone do any severe damage to a jet engine?

Are these engines strong enough for that sort of intake?

Any engineers on board?

Mj
 
Mark Johnson said:
Would a small largely plastic drone do any severe damage to a jet engine?

Are these engines strong enough for that sort of intake?

Any engineers on board?

Mj
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A quick search finds this:

Robert Harwood, the aviation director for Ansys, a company that develops simulations for aircraft emergencies, says that a drone getting sucked into an engine would probably be a lot like a bird strike. “Except obviously, with a drone it’s probably metallic or plastic, so it’s going to be more substantial than something fleshy.”
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http://qz.com/209090/what-happens-if-a-drone-gets-sucked-into-a-passenger-jet-engine/
 
Mark Johnson said:
Would a small largely plastic drone do any severe damage to a jet engine?

Are these engines strong enough for that sort of intake?

Any engineers on board?

Mj
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I would imagine if ingesting a bird into one can do serious damage then a drone could.

That said. If you were flying a drone within VLoS as @Ricardodaforce has explained them, I imagine there are relatively few places in the UK one could possibly ingest into a jet engine and those places will be pretty closely watched anyway
 
Density comes to mind.

A plump bird is quite a hit, also weight adds to the punch.

A plastic drone is light weight, and far less density, except for the battery.

Not doubting damage, but would think a big jet would absorb most of the drone without critical damage.

But I am no expert in those things.....
 
Large birds such as geese are often in flying in groups and at high altitude, and for long periods.
There are lots of birds out there.
They are quite often hit, there is usually little if any damage.
Drones fly only briefly at lower altitude than planes. There is infinitely smaller risk of any incident and they are controlled by a person who is not oblivious to aircraft in the area - or startled into the air when an aircraft approaches. The construction is primarily lightweight hollow plastic tubes with some circuit boards inside.
There is nothing substantial enough to cause as much damage as a pigeon let alone goose.

I've had one for about two years but have never seen another at all.
This is the case for most people i suspect because they only fly for a few minutes.
 
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4wd said:
The construction is primarily lightweight hollow plastic tubes with some circuit boards inside.
There is nothing substantial enough to cause as much damage as a pigeon let alone goose.
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I would have thought all drones need batteries to fly? A battery pack would be harder and of a higher density than any pigeon.

The fan blades in a jet engine are extremely hard, but also quite delicate to external object damage, it would only take a single blade to be damaged to cause a cascading failure of blades which would tear the engine apart.
 
viv1969 said:
Where and how high you can fly a kite is regulated, why not drones and model aircraft?
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Agree. Might I add, that walking should definitely be banned. So many people have walked in front of buses and trains - hundreds of lives at risk. Its a dangerous world!

Simple resolution - anyone caught flying or causing risk to human life through negligence should have the book thrown at them. But it does need to be made of sponge, we wouldnt want books getting banned either!
 
Cobra said:
But playing Devils advocate, cars and people have been around a lot longer than drones.
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You need to pass a test and obtain a license to drive a car.
 
Who cares. They are nude and they are out in public and it was their choice. No different to someone walking along the beach.

QUOTE:
The machine went along the whole stretch of Studland, so the owner could not be identified. For obvious reasons naturists need to know who it was
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What obvious reasons?


Steve.
 
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They do love to dramatise.
Presumably it travelled along the shoreline for some distance and they spotted it; this becomes 'buzzed by a drone'.
Not sure how the National Trust can claim ownership of airspace over the sea.
 
Pookeyhead said:
You need to pass a test and obtain a license to drive a car.
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Only if you wish to drive on a public road.
You can drive all you like on private property without doing either.
 
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viv1969 said:
Only if you wish to drive on a public road.
You can drive all you like on private property without doing either.
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;)


Pookeyhead said:
You need to pass a test and obtain a license to drive a car.
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UK driving licences were introduced by the Motor Car Act 1903
Legislation for compulsory testing was introduced for all new drivers with the Road Traffic Act 1934.
Bridget Driscoll (1851 – 17 August 1896) was the first pedestrian victim of an auto mobile collision

Just sayin' thats all
 
Cobra said:
;)



UK driving licences were introduced by the Motor Car Act 1903
Legislation for compulsory testing was introduced for all new drivers with the Road Traffic Act 1934.
Bridget Driscoll (1851 – 17 August 1896) was the first pedestrian victim of an auto mobile collision

Just sayin' thats all
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Yeah.. I think we've moved on a bit since then, and learned many lessons.

License them, and people will stop using them as toys.

Simple.
 
Pookeyhead said:
Yeah.. I think we've moved on a bit since then, and learned many lessons.
License them, and people will stop using them as toys. Simple.
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If you had read or quoted all of my post, that you first quoted you will see that I wasn't actually arguing that point ;)
 
Pookeyhead said:
Yeah.. I think we've moved on a bit since then, and learned many lessons.

License them, and people will stop using them as toys.

Simple.
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What, like it stops some middle aged men who find themselves with some disposable income from going out and buying a GSXR1100 and thenthrowing their new toy around country lanes on a bank holiday monday?
 
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