Dubai Aircrash

StewartR said:
Now let's see. I'm in a plane that's on fire and the crew are giving instructions regarding how to get out. Is it likely that those instructions were developed by experts, based on experience of evacuation studies and other incidents, and taking account of factors which I might not appreciate? Nah, sounds unlikely. I'll just assess the situation as I see it and act accordingly. What could possibly go wrong?
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You're twisting my words... All I said was that I would probably be tempted to grab my gear based upon the scene at the beginning of the video when the other people were trying to grab their stuff.
The scene at the beginning of the video doesn't look much different from any other plane exiting, it doesn't look/sound like panic (other than bad filming) and I don't hear any instructions being given. Nor does it look like the plane is "filling with smoke" due to a significant fire at that point.
And I also said that once the pilot or flight assistant gave a directive, then there really is no choice.

All we know is that the plane crash landed, everyone got out fine, and the right wing was *eventually* engulfed in fire/exploded. And as far as I know the cabin area was never compromised, even during the fire/explosion. Heck, most people weren't even "running" away from the plane after exiting...

I can promise you that if no-one was panicked they could all grab their bags and exit *at least as quickly* as they could with mass hysteria going on, probably much quicker. IMO it's a good thing those people were not panicked and rushing for the exits... especially since they only had the left side exits available. It is exactly the attitude some have expressed here of "I will do whatever is required, to whoever required, in order to make it out an exit" that will *cause* mass hysteria and get people killed...

FWIW, it seems that there was a good 40-50 seconds edited out of that clip from before any instruction was given. During an emergency, seconds last forever...
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_QgtaB0fw8&feature=youtu.be
 
Personally I'd just get out as fast as possible. What seems quite ok one minute could be a blazing inferno the next. I've done a lot of firefighting courses over the years and it's just not worth hanging around. As for people standing up, etc. a lot of it is to do with peoples backgrounds. I've worked quite a lot in Africa and to a lesser extent India where this plane was coming from and unlike in Europe people seem to do pretty much what they like when a plane is on the tarmac.
 
My first reaction i think would be to get stuff that is near by, on my lap, maybe even something under the seat but doubt i would go for anything overhead. Being interested in aviation and from documentaries i have seen it is so unfair on the aircrew to stall the evacuation. IIRC the first officer and stewards clear the aircraft while the captain makes the aircraft safe and waits for the evacuation to be complete.

I have a daughter and tbh if it happened while she is onboard, to hell with my bags... shes getting off that plane as my only priority. I know it sounds cliche but i think that would be primal instinct.
 
Sk66
The left engine is clearly on fire, the oxygen masks in the cabin are deployed (probably prior to landing), passengers are far from calm and to top it all there would have been an announcement that an emergency landing was taking place and that an evacuation on landing would be happening. Those things in themselves regardless of direct oral instructions from cabin crew means leave your f'in stuff and get off the plane. No,ifs,ands or buts.
 
Gazamonk said:
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I can't say definitively what I would have done... your impression of the (initial) situation is different from mine, but neither of us actually knows as we weren't there. The only thing I can say definitively is that the "right answer" is a calm/organized exit as efficiently/quickly as the situation demands. (IMO, the woman *screaming* jump and slide isn't handling things very well.)

I've emergency landed and evacuated an aircraft more than a few times, to include one electrical fire, one structural collapse, a hung/hot missile, and an engine failure (it only had one). I have never left anyone behind, nor anything of "importance" (personal or otherwise). But I have left "stuff" behind... "importance" is situationally variable. And if I thought, for any reason, that attempting to grab my gear would put myself or anyone else at increased risk, then it would stay behind. Heck, it's insured.

FWIW, they didn't declare an emergency so I doubt much was pre-planned/briefed/deployed. And an re-breather oxygen mask isn't a great idea in a fire/smoke situation because they mix outside air into them (there's enough oxygen supplied, but not "volume").
 
SK66, according to the aviation report the aircraft landed gear up. Based on the following reports you can understand why the stewardess was following training to get the people out the plane asap. They are all aware of previous aircraft fires on runways and loss of life.

A passenger in the aft cabin reported, that the approach was normal, there had been no announcements or indications of anything abnormal. Then there was a heavy impact, oxygen masks came down, the aircraft skidded shaking violently and immediately filling with smoke and came to a stop. All doors were opened, it appeared however not all of them were used for evacuation. After sliding down the chute the passenger began to run, about 100 meters from the aircraft an explosion was heard (editorial note: watch video "The aircraft erupting into flames", the right wing caught fire and including right hand engine separated from the aircraft).

Another passenger reported that the captain made an announcement they would land at Dubai and the weather was fine, nothing appeared to be amiss. Suddenly the aircraft hit the ground tail/belly first, at the same time the right hand engine caught fire, and the aircraft skidded to a halt, smoke filled the cabin, only at this time the passengers realised the seriousness of the situation. The accident came entirely out of the blue.

A ground observer reported EK-521 made a normal approach with the landing gear extended, touched down hard and went around, the gear was retracted, however the aircraft appeared to lack power and sank back onto the runway. (Editorial note: The Aviation Herald noticed the lack of a significant detail in the narration of passengers mentioned above, there was no mention of sounds of engines spooling up).
 
sk66 said:
I've emergency landed and evacuated an aircraft more than a few times, to include one electrical fire, one structural collapse, a hung/hot missile, and an engine failure
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Eeek. :eek:

(Just remind me never to travel with you! :LOL: )
 
Byker28i said:
SK66, according to the aviation report the aircraft landed gear up. Based on the following reports you can understand why the stewardess was following training to get the people out the plane asap. They are all aware of previous aircraft fires on runways and loss of life.
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Of course...
I just think that semi-panicked screaming isn't the right way to move/motivate/coordinate people in a calm orderly fashion...
 
OldCarlos said:
Eeek. :eek:

(Just remind me never to travel with you! :LOL: )
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haha!
I do feel like I had more than my share... but one of my jobs was as a test pilot, sometimes trying to find/re-create reported issues. Sometimes "recovering" aircraft that were PL'd (gearbox/engine/transmission chips, electrical, etc). And sometimes doing flight checks because the test bench equipment was broken (i.e major engine rebuild), I didn't like those flights...

Still, only about 4 or 5 fairly significant incidents in over 30 yrs... (probably a couple dozen minor ones).
The structural failure was the worst one as it started to come apart in flight (it didn't though). That one eventually resulted in 3 fused vertebrae in my neck along with significant nerve damage, ending my career...

But I can't say that I regret any of it...
 
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I used to work abroad in the middle east and have been on a number of flights with a mass of Indian passengers. I have to say that values are rather different to the majority of 'western passenger' flights so I look at this a little differently. It took me aback all the pushing, shoving and rush to the gates etc on many of the flights particularly where there were a lot of men. People literally fell over and pushed each other around but as a tall Westerner I did tend to be given a bit of space. These were the workers rather than tourists in UAE/AUH/DXB. A lot of the carry on bags were damn big and heavy and most wanted to keep them close often thinking nothing of moving other travellers bags so theirs would fit! These were on decent 'middle price carriers flights, BA, Emirates, Etihad etc and a lot of the educated workers, not the cheapie flights. Besides a bit of a cultural thing where many aren't used to orderly queuing, giving personal space and typically trying to get everything into a carry on bag, I came to realise that often bags contained cash and gold and personal items of high value. In an evacuation we Westerners might be thinking compensation and insurance but many Indians and others out there in the wider world don't have that luxury. You can't afford to lose what's in that bag. Of course I'm certainly not having a go at 'Indians' and no offence intended, I worked with loads, but just suggesting people should look at things differently and understand why those travellers can't afford to lose a bag. Even on this side of the world, there would be plenty who would still take their bags and consider that a number one priority rather than any realisation of the speed of a fire.

Whilst there may be questions over the flight crew actions, gear up, gear down, go around procedure, I think the cabin crew did great getting everyone off. I was amazed no travellers lost their lives. Maybe the cabin crew even conceded people would take bags whatever, so easier to let them just go with bag than waste time arguing about leaving it?
 
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No, my life, and others, is more important.
 
my uni classmate's wife and kid was there on the flight and there in the video as well. her version was that flight crew didn't announce anything on a serious note at first or something. only when the smoke started coming into the cabins they announced and so lot of passengers are getting ready to change their flights any ways because Dubai was their destination.

having said that ...I would be tempted to go with my camera bag and passport ( thinking if I survive.....i will cherish those photos in my CF card) :)
 
BlackCloud said:
I used to work abroad in the middle east and have been on a number of flights with a mass of Indian passengers. I have to say that values are rather different to the majority of 'western passenger' flights so I look at this a little differently. It took me aback all the pushing, shoving and rush to the gates etc on many of the flights particularly where there were a lot of men. People literally fell over and pushed each other around but as a tall Westerner I did tend to be given a bit of space. These were the workers rather than tourists in UAE/AUH/DXB. A lot of the carry on bags were damn big and heavy and most wanted to keep them close often thinking nothing of moving other travellers bags so theirs would fit! These were on decent 'middle price carriers flights, BA, Emirates, Etihad etc and a lot of the educated workers, not the cheapie flights. Besides a bit of a cultural thing where many aren't used to orderly queuing, giving personal space and typically trying to get everything into a carry on bag, I came to realise that often bags contained cash and gold and personal items of high value. In an evacuation we Westerners might be thinking compensation and insurance but many Indians and others out there in the wider world don't have that luxury. You can't afford to lose what's in that bag. Of course I'm certainly not having a go at 'Indians' and no offence intended, I worked with loads, but just suggesting people should look at things differently and understand why those travellers can't afford to lose a bag. Even on this side of the world, there would be plenty who would still take their bags and consider that a number one priority rather than any realisation of the speed of a fire.

Whilst there may be questions over the flight crew actions, gear up, gear down, go around procedure, I think the cabin crew did great getting everyone off. I was amazed no travellers lost their lives. Maybe the cabin crew even conceded people would take bags whatever, so easier to let them just go with bag than waste time arguing about leaving it?
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Funnily enough, I'm in Kerala in India right now having flown in from Dubai and your post struck accord with me. Indian culture is so different to British culture. It would be easy to think of it as rude as people give each other no space and human to human collisions are very normal but nobody ever gets angry about it. Nowhere is this more evident than the road network which is utter chaos and yet everybody is so calm about it. Your average British driver would have burst blood vessels within seconds.
 
Too much discussion and views. In this scenario it's simple. Get the hell out of that situation without impeding others or worrying about replaceable items. The crew have just 90 seconds at worst to get everyone off and without worrying about damaging the slides with baggage. THERE SIMPLY IS NO DISCUSSION. :ty:
 
I've given some reasoning above why people may think differently. We may prioritise our lives, but for some, losing the contents of the bag may as well mean your life is finished. Even so, totally amazed they cleared that plane of not just able bodied adults and their bags, but kids, the aged and the disabled without loss of (passenger) life. The smoke and fumes incapacitated well before the flames.
 
KingDad said:
Too much discussion and views. In this scenario it's simple. Get the hell out of that situation without impeding others or worrying about replaceable items. The crew have just 90 seconds at worst to get everyone off and without worrying about damaging the slides with baggage. THERE SIMPLY IS NO DISCUSSION. :ty:
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Very hard to comprehend the delay in evacuation in this case.
If a plane lands and there is nothing that the passengers can sense as constituting a danger then there will probably be some lack of urgency in leaving following the evacuation announcement. However, this B777 hit the ground forcefully enough to tear off the undercarriage. Very hard to see how that did not provoke a sudden desire to get the hell out of it PDQ.
 
arclight said:
Very hard to comprehend the delay in evacuation in this case.
If a plane lands and there is nothing that the passengers can sense as constituting a danger then there will probably be some lack of urgency in leaving following the evacuation announcement. However, this B777 hit the ground forcefully enough to tear off the undercarriage. Very hard to see how that did not provoke a sudden desire to get the hell out of it PDQ.
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Nope gear wasn't ripped off, the landign was aborted so standard practice is to retract the undercarriage to reduce drag. Only the aircraft didn't have enough lift and sank onto the runway with the undercarriage retracted.
 
Byker28i said:
Nope gear wasn't ripped off, the landign was aborted so standard practice is to retract the undercarriage to reduce drag. Only the aircraft didn't have enough lift and sank onto the runway with the undercarriage retracted.
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Yip, I have just read one of the pilots comments which stated that a "Go around" was being attempted. There are also reports of a sudden wind change and wind shear problems. Nevertheless, whatever the cause or whatever the landing gear was doing the point remains that the plane hit the ground very hard and passengers have reported that there was clearly something seriously wrong. Smoke also entered the cabin.
In short, it would seem that there was plenty stimulus to get out without delay. Some folk appear not to have thought about the risk or thought that they would have time to grab their luggage before evacuating. It turns out that they did have enough time since they all got out. I hope, in retrospect they will understand that they were damned lucky not to have perished and that the few seconds they wasted could have been their undoing.
 
BillN_33 said:
I can see why some would want to grab their bags .... a natural instinct for many ...... the only way to stop this would be to have automatic locking overhead compartments which only opened when the staff thought it safe ......... it would also stop the normal procedure of some people grabbing their bags just before it was allowed on regular flights
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Thats actually a bloody good idea Bill.... I guess law of averages mean you have to have one at some point ;) lol :D
 
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