Elimintating reflections

jpgreenwood

jpgreenwood

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jason
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Today I was trying to take close up photos of one of those vintage lightbulbs, with all the squiggly electrickery stuff inside. (I'm not electrically minded!!)
No matter what I tried, I couldn't get rid of the reflections on the bulb glass. I hid under the table, used a large blackout blind as a surround. How do people take those great detailed shots of lightbulbs?
 
Tilt Shift lens???

PS if I have understood the type of reflection issue properly?
 
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Thing about light-bulbs is they'z full of light..... or not.....
If you are interested in the fillement..... all the squiggly electrickery stuff inside... otherwise called a bit of wire! when 'on' its emitting light, lots of it, to fill the bulb and escape far enough to light up a room.. if 'off'.... its just a bit of dark wire in a glass jar. But if 'on' the exposure will probably burn out the photo, and you wont get much at butt, but a bright blob. If 'off' then you get the reflections.. and not a lot of the wire.
I believe, that the classic photo's of light bulbs, where the element is sort of glowing, and you just see a hint on glass, are taken by putting the light bulb into a card-board box, painted with black-board paint on the inside, so no reflections of light on the outside of the glass. Element is the partially lit, with a variable power supply, to limit the volts across it, so that they get the right level of glowing, rather than bright white light filling the bulb... ad then they mess with the shutter speed to get balance the brightness of the fillement with what it lights.... all cleaver stuff for supposedly 'simple'shot, eh?
But, its in the set-up, rather than in the gadgets or equipment.... if that lot helps.

You 'may' be able to make up a sort of variable power-supply, using an old fashioned dimmer switch, and a three-pin plug, but I seem to recall these aren't compatible with modern energy saving bulbs so aren't often sold in the DIY shops any more, and they may lack the fine control to get a filement to 'just' glow.... but if you can find one, may be worth a shot.
 
THIRTYFIVEMILL said:
if you're main effort is to photograph the electrical bits inside the bulb then a polarising filter can help.
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I doubt it, Duncan. The rounded surface of the bulb will be
minimally affected as the AoI/R is reduced to a point.
 
You can’t eliminate reflections, you can only control what’s reflected.

You’d probably just about worked that out, but sometimes clarity of thought helps you move forward.
 
Kodiak Qc said:
How would a TS lens improve the work, Laurence?
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Hi Daniel

I thought the OP was referring to seeing his own reflection (akin to taking a photograph of say a lion and you can see the photographer reflected in the eye).

Hence, I once recalled reading of the use of a T & S lens being used for certain types of architectural photography where the set up is to avoid seeing the photographer & his camera gear reflected in the window of the building. I.e not correcting tilt but making use (as I think I understood it???) of the shift function.
 
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Yes. Mainly what is reflected back to me from the bulb glass. I want to perfect that before trying to illuminate the bulb.
 
Ignoring the filaments for now... how are you planning to light the glass of the bulb. Personally I would tackle that first...

Also IMO a controlled reflection or two gives form to the bulb...
 
Box Brownie said:
I.e not correcting tilt but making use (as I think I understood it???) of the shift function.
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Shift it is. Imagine a mirror; if you're right in front of it, you see your own reflection; stand to one side and you see the room. A shift lens lets you set up the camera to the side of the mirror, but then shift the lens to place the mirror back in the centre of the frame.
 
jpgreenwood said:
Sorry, you've lost me. Can you explain? Really new to this stuff.
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It’s a bit complex for a forum post.

Fortunately Garry posted full tutorials on the Lencarta website. Also checkout the tutorial on specular reflections which will also help your understanding of the issues.
 
Kodiak Qc said:
This may apply to a flat mirror but not to a
curved specular surface, Laurence. :cool:
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Granted, and though a lions eye is not glass with an internally reflective surfaces it is curved and can/does reflect the photographer ;)
 
Ok. I've just shot a whole range of these lightbulbs for a catalogue. There was about 30 in the range, and its just the same as any product photography in that its all about clever and careful positioning of lighting / reflectors / flags.

and absolutely DON'T use a light tent. Never even think about it. Awful things unless you don't know what you are doing and are happy with ebay type photography/

Getting back on track there is no easy answer, because there is not one answer, it just takes a whole bunch of experience and micro adjustments of everything to get it all setup. I can't just say stick a light here, a light there, a flag there, and a scrim there. You have to work it out each time and by each time I mean for each different bulb shape. Its pretty quick once you know what you are doing, but its daunting if you don't.

For what its worth I mostly used a medium sized 1m softbox on one side, a reverse firing reflector on the other side, a 60cm softbox bouncing off the back, a further reflector off the ceiling with a barndoor and a reflector attached and a tight snooted, grided light giving myself a nice accent. Plus a whole bunch of flags, reflectors, scrims a scoop and I might of had a trace screen in there as well. I can't remember now.

But as I say that needed tweaking for the different shapes and settings changed between lit and unlit versions of the bulbs.

Product photography is not easy
 
Kodiak Qc said:
I doubt it, Duncan. The rounded surface of the bulb will be
minimally affected as the AoI/R is reduced to a point.
Click to expand...

Well, you say that but I remember photographing a bulb a year or two back and in particular the filament. I'm sure I used a circ pol filter at the time but I also used a multitude of card reflectors that I made from cardboard and black paper. I think there were 5-6+ by the time I'd finished and about the same amount of diffused lights from varying angles.
 
Card-board box, painted black on the inside; bulb in box, hole just big enough to poke lens through to take photo.
Opposite of a light tent, which diffuses light to even it out around the subject, black box, controls reflected light, by stopping any light fall on the subject...
No light, no reflections... simples..... OK.. probably no photo too, but now we're getting complicated!
Glass is a photo-nightmare... its clear... think about it, its the stuff your lens is made of.. light passes through it, if it didn't you would always be taking a photo of the inside of your lens, not your subject!
Now a photo is all about reflections.... your picture is made from catching the light reflected from a scene.. so when it comes to glass, it's actually the very subtle reflections that DONT pass straight through the glass, that are giving yo the shape and form and ultimately your image....
Hence it's a classic academic exercise in lighting to shoot a photo of a wine glass... {only in our modern politically correct indoctrinated academic institutions, apparently, you have to be aware of such contentious topics as promoting binge-drinking...... seriously! Daughter had an assignment to shoot moving water, so we set up a champagne-glass-water-fall in the bathroom... and put different colour food dyes in each of the glasses before she poured the water over the top.. fantastic 'set'... rejected for 'o' level submission because the wine glasses might 'promote alcohol abuse' ?!?!?!?!? However.....}
As Phil says its not about eliminate reflections, but controlling them.. hence the black box, to eliminate them... before you introduce your lighting source to make.. hopefully only the ones you want that reveal the form in the glass.
Don't give up.. it IS a tricky subject.... grab a big box, and some black-paint... go play [hint..put a light inside the box with your glass subject! A black angle-poise lamp or similar you can position to suit, is good!] Look at the effect of changing the single lighting angle.. then try two lamps.. at different angles and different brightness....
And if you want to get a bit cleaver, repeat with a tea-cup... its not translucent like glass, but probably white, it is more reflective, and has a rounded form like a wine glass, rather than a parallel sides coffee mug... actually you may want to do the tea-cup first.
But point is its an exercise studio lighting... on a possibly slightly smaller scale.... studio is just a much bigger black box, and you have more room to position lights, but the principles are the same, and that's what the excise is all about, as Phils comment, its not about eliminating the reflections, but controlling them, and as your photo is made by reflected light it is almost the entirety of the subject...... in a very simplified and idealised 'model'.
 
Teflon-Mike said:
Card-board box, painted black on the inside
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This isn't a very good way of doing it. Having photographed liter thousands of glass items this just isn't going to work.

Using black is going to put an unwanted dark edge on the glass without any control. Now sometimes with different lighting setups and different glass products you'll start to lose the edge of the glass and that is when you then need to bring a flag or scrim or grey bounce in to retain the edge, but it totally needs to be movable, move it back and forth, twist, change angle to get the look you need. Sometimes it is black, but rarely. You'll probably need to employ various flags / scrims / bounces to get the image perfect.

Also you are fixing yourself to a black background, which many clients don't want.

and finally you NEED light, you need the correct light and accent otherwise its going to look like a very boring dull photograph. I often add a grid in to give glass sparkle, life.
 
riddell said:
This isn't a very good way of doing it. Having photographed liter thousands of glass items this just isn't going to work.

Using black is going to put an unwanted dark edge on the glass without any control. Now sometimes with different lighting setups and different glass products you'll start to lose the edge of the glass and that is when you then need to bring a flag or scrim or grey bounce in to retain the edge, but it totally needs to be movable, move it back and forth, twist, change angle to get the look you need. Sometimes it is black, but rarely. You'll probably need to employ various flags / scrims / bounces to get the image perfect.

Also you are fixing yourself to a black background, which many clients don't want.

and finally you NEED light, you need the correct light and accent otherwise its going to look like a very boring dull photograph. I often add a grid in to give glass sparkle, life.
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:plus1: Eliminating is no solution… it's all in the control!
 
All great advice this. I just need to clarify from my original post; I'm not trying to get rid of all reflections, just ones from stuff around the room, doorways, skylights, windows, shiny surfaces, and myself. I understand that some reflections that follow the contours of the glass could improve the shot.
 
jpgreenwood said:
All great advice this. I just need to clarify from my original post; I'm not trying to get rid of all reflections, just ones from stuff around the room, doorways, skylights, windows, shiny surfaces, and myself. I understand that some reflections that follow the contours of the glass could improve the shot.
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Just to clarify, your ‘aim’ has to be to control, not to eliminate.
Start with the premisethat everything the bulb can see is in the picture (so everything) so you need to only show the bulb things you want in the picture. Don’t start from hiding, start from ‘showing’.
 
By ensuring that your lighting is set with an angle of incidence such that the camera is not within the angle of reflectance. Not sure you can do that with a bulb shape.
 
Phil V said:
It’s a bit complex for a forum post.

Fortunately Garry posted full tutorials on the Lencarta website. Also checkout the tutorial on specular reflections which will also help your understanding of the issues.
Click to expand...
I did a couple, this one is on brightfield lighting, where the subject isn't lit at all, just the background is lit. This doesn't eliminate reflections, because there are no reflections to eliminate, but from your viewpoint it's the same thing, because there are no reflections https://www.lencarta.com/studio-lighting-blog/lighting-glass-part-1/#.T_hvk5H5-So
And the other one is on darkfield lighting, which is basically the opposite https://www.lencarta.com/studio-lighting-blog/lighting-glass-part-2/#.VjyI1Csl-hE
And this is the specular reflections one, https://www.lencarta.com/studio-lighting-blog/controlling-specular-reflections/#.VjzW6ysl-hE
The story behind these very simple tutorials is that I had a 4000 sq ft studio with unlimited lighting equipment, but wanted to show what can be done in a tiny space with an absolute minimum of equipment.

As you will see from the tutorial, all that we do with brightfield lighting is to light the background, so that the light shines through the glass product, therefore there is nothing that can be reflected in the glass, because all of the light comes from behind. The edges of the glass will be clearly defined, because of refraction of the glass. Any engraving or similar will also be very clearly defined, and so of course will the bulb filament, in this case.

But, that isn't a complete answer because you may or may not want to show more than brightfield lighting can show.
Have the lamp switched on: You can have the lamp switched on, and this is easy provided that you're using powerful flash for the brightfield lighting. Control the brightness of the filament by choosing the camera shutter speed that shows it as you want it. If youi're having to do it without flash, simply take one shot with the bulb on and one without, and combine the two
Show the bits that won't be lit by the brightfield lighting: These are the bits that light can't pass through, e.g. any solid bits such as the lamp fitting. A pro photographer would normally use a focussing spotlight for this, they come with adjustable internal shutters that create the exact shape and size of light needed, but you can manage without one - simply take one shot with brightfield lighting and one without, and combine the two.
 
Garry Edwards said:
I did a couple, this one is on brightfield lighting, where the subject isn't lit at all, just the background is lit. This doesn't eliminate reflections, because there are no reflections to eliminate, but from your viewpoint it's the same thing, because there are no reflections https://www.lencarta.com/studio-lighting-blog/lighting-glass-part-1/#.T_hvk5H5-So
And the other one is on darkfield lighting, which is basically the opposite https://www.lencarta.com/studio-lighting-blog/lighting-glass-part-2/#.VjyI1Csl-hE
And this is the specular reflections one, https://www.lencarta.com/studio-lighting-blog/controlling-specular-reflections/#.VjzW6ysl-hE
The story behind these very simple tutorials is that I had a 4000 sq ft studio with unlimited lighting equipment, but wanted to show what can be done in a tiny space with an absolute minimum of equipment.

As you will see from the tutorial, all that we do with brightfield lighting is to light the background, so that the light shines through the glass product, therefore there is nothing that can be reflected in the glass, because all of the light comes from behind. The edges of the glass will be clearly defined, because of refraction of the glass. Any engraving or similar will also be very clearly defined, and so of course will the bulb filament, in this case.

But, that isn't a complete answer because you may or may not want to show more than brightfield lighting can show.
Have the lamp switched on: You can have the lamp switched on, and this is easy provided that you're using powerful flash for the brightfield lighting. Control the brightness of the filament by choosing the camera shutter speed that shows it as you want it. If youi're having to do it without flash, simply take one shot with the bulb on and one without, and combine the two
Show the bits that won't be lit by the brightfield lighting: These are the bits that light can't pass through, e.g. any solid bits such as the lamp fitting. A pro photographer would normally use a focussing spotlight for this, they come with adjustable internal shutters that create the exact shape and size of light needed, but you can manage without one - simply take one shot with brightfield lighting and one without, and combine the two.
Click to expand...
I tried to find these as I knew they existed, but couldn’t find them on the new swish Lencarta site.
 
Phil V said:
I tried to find these as I knew they existed, but couldn’t find them on the new swish Lencarta site.
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I no longer work there and deny all responsibility:)
But you're right, there are problems, and I've just sent them an email telling them about them.
 
Don't know whether this link to facebook post will work or not
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10215503911971327&set=pcb.10215503912131331&type=3
Probably not exactly what you're looking to do, but a shot of a light bulb switched on, where the photographer clearly controlled the power of the lit filament with his camera shutter speed and, as Phil and Kodiak
Kodiak Qc said:
:plus1: Eliminating is no solution… it's all in the control!
Click to expand...

said
Phil V said:
Just to clarify, your ‘aim’ has to be to control, not to eliminate.
Start with the premisethat everything the bulb can see is in the picture (so everything) so you need to only show the bulb things you want in the picture. Don’t start from hiding, start from ‘showing’.
Click to expand...
It's about control, not elimination (unless you use brightfield lighting of course) and her, the photographer used a pair of strip softboxes placed where they would create the reflections that he wanted
If the link doesn't work, just go on the Lencarta FB page
 
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