Epic news Gov to bring forward ban on new dirty cars to 2030

[Cobra]

Neither plug in or self charge hybrids are particularly efficient on motorways driving any distance at a constant speed.

But surely the self charging hybrids are taking the charging system with them.
And no worries if you can't find a charging system.

I do about 1000 miles / working week. and none of it is motorway.
Most of it is rural. Scalextric toys would be totally useless to me.

 

[Cobra]

post #5

OK so plus 5 years
But also my last post /\

 

[broc]

But surely the self charging hybrids are taking the charging system with them.
And no worries if you can't find a charging system.

I do about 1000 miles / working week. and none of it is motorway.
Most of it is rural. Scalextric toys would be totally useless to me.

Just goes to show that one solution does not suit all......

A self charging hybrid is good only for a mile or two on electric with quite limited battery capacity , for example during stop-go driving in urban areas. The electric motor can also assist the petrol engine in picking up speed when starting off. The battery gets charged as you slow down/brake, recovering energy which is then available to drive the electric motor.

If your weekly drive includes a lot of slowing down/speeding up where the battery is recharging then maybe it would suit you?

In my case I think my ideal low-pollution motor would probably have been something like a BMW i3 with range extender but it was too expensive. Most of my travel is local, with the occasional long trip. We can do this with a small plug in full EV with 150-200 mile range and a bigger ICE car for long distance motoring. Hybrids add complexity and are generally more expensive to maintain too.

 

[Nod]

IF the occasional long trip is only a couple of times a year and doesn't involve a long stay away from home, it might be cheaper to have just an EV and to hire an ICE car when needed. There's also the public transport option...

 

[Cobra]

If your weekly drive includes a lot of slowing down/speeding up where the battery is recharging then maybe it would suit you?

a bit of everything really dual carriageway, country back roads, normal A roads.
TBH I have only ever been in one hybrid, and that was about a 20 mile journey, I was fascinated by the dash display, it seemed it was more on the battery than petrol.
But that's all I know, I'll stick to the Diesel van and by 2030 odd I'll be retired anyway.

 

[broc]

a bit of everything really dual carriageway, country back roads, normal A roads.
TBH I have only ever been in one hybrid, and that was about a 20 mile journey, I was fascinated by the dash display, it seemed it was more on the battery than petrol.
But that's all I know, I'll stick to the Diesel van and by 2030 odd I'll be retired anyway.

We are in no rush to change, I try to keep aware of what is happening & when the lease on my 'fun' car (2.0 petrol Mini Cooper S convertible) runs out in 18 months time I will consider my options. I do so few miles these days I may just pay the lease balloon payment & keep the Mini for a few more years as I cannot see much prospect of a cheap EV convertible anytime soon.

 

[Gremlin]

What about people who take their work vehicles home overnight, who would pay for charging them ?
Can't see firms having separate meter installed
There needs to be a lot more thought put into this and how they are going to be charged up, as has been said
not everyone can park next to their property so who is going to install the charging points and how much
wil be charged over and above the normal rate ?

 

[Deleted member 49549]

What about people who take their work vehicles home overnight, who would pay for charging them ?
Can't see firms having separate meter installed
There needs to be a lot more thought put into this and how they are going to be charged up, as has been said
not everyone can park next to their property so who is going to install the charging points and how much
wil be charged over and above the normal rate ?

Surely they would be able to calculate the electricity used from the vehicle mileage?

 

[Gremlin]

Surely they would be able to calculate the electricity used from the vehicle mileage?

I have absolutely no idea .
Are batteries effected by temperature around them does, stop start driving
in traffic jams make a difference, what about driving with lights on ?
Model of car, how it's driven, these things affect petrol/diesel vehicles so will it make
a difference ?

Perhaps someone who knows more can help out.

 

[omens]

Ideas for such a move include a road toll system or "pay-as-you-drive" - a concept last explored by Tony Blair's government in 2007 but abandoned due to opposition from motorists.

I knew this would come. I just figured they’d run it alongside VED or “road tax” as an additional form of taxation.

Millions of car/van owners do not have any off-road parking and I see many problems.

By running cables across roadside paths from the house is asking for trouble, people tripping over, local yobs unplugging cables, Pikies pinching cables.

Wasn’t there suggestions of using lamp posts as charging points? Might help with access and avoid trip hazards. Won’t do anything to stop people unplugging them unless there’s some sort of locking mechanism tied into the central locking.

 

[Marc]

Wasn’t there suggestions of using lamp posts as charging points? Might help with access and avoid trip hazards. Won’t do anything to stop people unplugging them unless there’s some sort of locking mechanism tied into the central locking.

I've often wondered about what happens now. I think the cable locks into the car but not sure about the charging point.

 

[Gremlin]

How about rural places that don't have street lights ?

They really do need to get an infrastructure in place before they start talking about banning cars.

That said they don't seem to worry when they grant planning permission for 1000s of house
in rural areas

 

[cambsno]

Its a brilliant idea obviously, BUT unfortunately no one ever seems to think about the infrastructure and the day to day practicalities
for the average guy.
I mentioned way back, ( in another thread of this ilk ) that new houses ( certainly around here) are being built with no drive just a parking space, if you are lucky
its pretty close to your house, if not its a 100 yards away in a communal area.

Perhaps the local authorities are going to provide free charging points in these circumstances?
No I didn't think so either.

I have no confidence in this! Look at all the flats and houses being built where you cant park close to a garage or house? I cant even see this lot being able to have enough charging points across the country in places like car parks either. I know the ban means we can still run petrol cars so it wont change overnight, but you need the right infrastructure.

 

[troutfisher]

In my opinion a plug-in hybrid is probably more versatile than a self-charging hybrid as they generally offer a better range on battery power because they tend to have bigger batteries. Neither plug in or self charge hybrids are particularly efficient on motorways driving any distance at a constant speed.

At 60 mph on a motorway with cruise control on my Auris hybrid returns 65-70 mpg

 

[wyx087]

Oh dear, another EV thread.

Let's get the obvious out of the way:
Hybrid are still allowed after the ban.
The ban is only on new car sales without electrification.
Most manufacturers have already moved to hybrid now.
EV isn't currently for everyone.
There are lots of issues with infrastructure need sorting out for EV.
EV will eventually get taxed similarly.
It's not end of the world.

My situation:
I've been following EV for almost 5 years now, my family have a 6 years old Nissan Leaf (bought 3 years ago) and a dirty diesel Skoda Octavia. I plan to replace the dirty diesel with a long range EV in next few years, will never buy another car with ICE. Of course, I have a driveway so overnight home charging isn't an issue for me.

My reason for partaking in discussion:
To spread real world EV ownership experience. Headlines are often misleading. Motor journalists often write misleading EV "experiences" because they are often still thinking with petrol station refuel mentality.

I have absolutely no idea .
Are batteries effected by temperature around them does stop start driving
in traffic jams make a difference, what about driving with lights on ?
Model of car, how it's driven, these things affect petrol/diesel vehicles so will it make
a difference ?

Perhaps someone who knows more can help out.

Yes. Batteries are affected by temperature. Too cold and its ability to produce power reduces. If you are driving locally, range of EV doesn't really matter so cold battery doesn't matter. (similar to how cold ICE cars are horribly inefficient). Luckily if you are driving long distance, battery warms up and battery's ability to deliver power returns to normal.

Stop start driving in traffic jam doesn't make much difference to range. The range killer in EV is actually driving at motorway speed. So if you are marginal on range and hit congestion, it's not a worry.

Normal 12v car electronics added up to less than 1 kW of power, lights use around 0.1 kW. Cruising at 40 mph uses around 10 kW of power. The only big power drain that is not related to moving the car is interior heating. EV need to run heaters from stored energy. Remember ICE produces more than enough waste heat to heat up the cabin in winter is because it is so inefficient, those energy are completely wasted in summer.

Model of car: obviously if you buy SUV expect crap efficiency. Bad efficiency means spending longer time at rapid chargers mid-journey. Buy efficient cars, expect shorter recharging time and better range from similar sized battery. Currently only these 2 brands are known to make efficient cars: Hyundai and Tesla, VW ID range and BMW i range is also said to be efficient, but not a lot of testing in the real world yet.

Won’t do anything to stop people unplugging them unless there’s some sort of locking mechanism tied into the central locking.

Cables lock to both charger and car. On slow destination chargers, you bring the cable and the charger usually respond to the car. Meaning when you unplug from the car, it unlocks automatically. Some chargers require another authentication to unlock the cable.

I try to keep aware of what is happening & when the lease on my 'fun' car (2.0 petrol Mini Cooper S convertible) runs out in 18 months time I will consider my options

I'm sure you can buy "fun car" hybrids. I expect the ban is on pure ICE only, most manufacturers have already got mild-hybrids. BMW efficientdynamics have been available for ages. I'm sure they can pop it into a Mini to get around the regulations.

 

[Paul W. H]

What about people who take their work vehicles home overnight, who would pay for charging them ?
Can't see firms having separate meter installed

And don't forget you may not always be able to park outside your own house because someone has pinched "your" space.

 

[Nod]

1. Are batteries effected by temperature around them does, 2. stop start driving
in traffic jams make a difference, 3. what about driving with lights on ?
4. Model of car, 5. how it's driven, these things affect petrol/diesel vehicles so will it make
a difference ?

1. Yes. However, if the car is left to charge overnight, it prewarms the battery to optimum temperature and once under way, the discharging keeps the temperature "correct".
2. Depends on what's being used in the car. Air con, heater, radio etc. will be drawing power but the motor won't, unlike an ICE car where it'll either be sat ticking over or (if fitted with stop/start) drawing heavily on the battery (which will then take power from the ICE to recharge) every time it stop/starts).
3. Yup, just like any vehicle does. EVs tend to have more efficient LED lights while many ICE cars still use filament lamps.
4. Heavy cars of any type are less efficient than lighter ones. Purpose designed EVs (as opposed to conversions of ICE models to electric) tend to be lighter.
5. Yup, a heavy right foot will use charge faster.

I think the cable locks into the car but not sure about the charging point.

Yup, the cable locks into the Leaf (although I think than can be switched off should you want the cable to be nickable...) but doesn't lock into the wall socket we have at home. IIRC (been a while since we've charged at Sainsbury's [where the charge is free]), their sockets DO lock until the unlock button (on the car's plipper or dash) is pressed. Fast chargers have the cables hard wired in.

 

[Gremlin]

@wyx087 and @Nod
So to answer @Rapscallion mileage wouldn't be the answer to how much the electricity cost,
if you had to claim it back from an employer
thanks guys

 

[nilagin]

Oh dear, another EV thread.

My reason for partaking in discussion:
To spread real world EV ownership experience. Headlines are often misleading. Motor journalists often write misleading EV "experiences" because they are often still thinking with petrol station refuel mentality.


Yes. Batteries are affected by temperature. Too cold and its ability to produce power reduces. If you are driving locally, range of EV doesn't really matter so cold battery doesn't matter. (similar to how cold ICE cars are horribly inefficient).

I'm sure you can buy "fun car" hybrids. I expect the ban is on pure ICE only, most manufacturers have already got mild-hybrids. BMW efficientdynamics have been available for ages. I'm sure they can pop it into a Mini to get around the regulations.

Another EV thread and here you are with misleading ICE information.
Your claim that when cold, ICE is horribly inefficient, that is only true for old cars or on modern cars just for very few seconds after initial start up. When I start my car (3yrs old) in cold weather it idles at around 1200rpm instead of it's normal 860-900rpm, this is the car being held at higher revs, not running rich, like older cars, it is still running at stoich or lambda. As soon as the accelerator pedal is pressed to pull away or even a blip on the pedal, it returns to normal,
In winter, where one of my journeys will be in the dark, so lights on and possibly with the heater on, my fuel consumption increases by less than 1mpg, some of which can be attributed to cold tyres having less pressure. I reckon my winter range on a tank of fuel, is around 8 miles less than I see in summer. Hardly "horribly inefficient".

As far as hybrids are concerned, it is unlikely that mild hybrids will be allowed after 2030. The hybrids that will be allowed will have to be able to drive 50km minimum under electric propulsion, mild hybrids are just an electric motor providing additional torque to an engine, improving performance but mainly to lower emissions and fuel consumption. Their batteries are too small to enable driving anywhere near that sort of distance.

 

[Marc]

@wyx087 @nilagin

Just a little friendly heads up, if you two continue your feud, it will result in threadbans at best.

 

[nilagin]

@wyx087 and @Nod
So to answer @Rapscallion mileage wouldn't be the answer to how much the electricity cost,
if you had to claim it back from an employer
thanks guys

I would imagine the vehicle would have some sort of smart meter fitted so that it knows how much electricity was used to charge it.

 

[cambsno]

And don't forget you may not always be able to park outside your own house because someone has pinched "your" space.

Am just thinking of all the pavements in towns with Victorian terraced houses - no driveway, people park on street outside their house or further down the road... Only way you could do this is to put in charging posts along the edge of the kerbs, but some pavements are quite narrow anyway? Lots of work to do across the country for that.

 

[wyx087]

@wyx087 and @Nod
So to answer @Rapscallion mileage wouldn't be the answer to how much the electricity cost,
if you had to claim it back from an employer
thanks guys

Mileage can still be used. The amount of variation in actual price paid for electricity will be very small.

Eg. drop in efficiency from 4 mi/kWh down to 3.2 mi/kWh would only cost you ~£10 extra in electricity over 1000 miles. Modern efficient EV's hover around 4 mi/kWh, worse in winter, better in summer. So over 1 year it would average out.

Another method is use existing car telemetric. Or as mentioned, some sort of logging device.

As far as hybrids are concerned, it is unlikely that mild hybrids will be allowed after 2030. The hybrids that will be allowed will have to be able to drive 50km minimum under electric propulsion, mild hybrids are just an electric motor providing additional torque to an engine, improving performance but mainly to lower emissions and fuel consumption. Their batteries are too small to enable driving anywhere near that sort of distance.

Currently no firm information on what type of hybrid is allowed after 2030. If you have the official source, I'm sure the thread would be interested to see it.

 

[nilagin]

Am just thinking of all the pavements in towns with Victorian terraced houses - no driveway, people park on street outside their house or further down the road... Only way you could do this is to put in charging posts along the edge of the kerbs, but some pavements are quite narrow anyway? Lots of work to do across the country for that.

I have to park on the opposite side of the road, the nearest lamp post is on my side of the road. The two nearest lamp posts on the opposite side of the road are right next to driveways and also opposite side turnings, so using any of them for charge points are out of the question. The stretch of road where we can park doesn't have any designated parking spaces marked on the road, so some will just park how they like. As a result it would be almost impossible to have charging posts installed, because there is no guarantee of being able to park near one and they could also prevent people from opening their car doors wide enough to get out.

 

[Mr Bump]

Well it has been announced and well done Boris, I wonder now how many people will desert diesel not because of the environmental issues but how much their precious vehicles will depreciate over the next few years.

 

[Mr Bump]

Am just thinking of all the pavements in towns with Victorian terraced houses - no driveway, people park on street outside their house or further down the road... Only way you could do this is to put in charging posts along the edge of the kerbs, but some pavements are quite narrow anyway? Lots of work to do across the country for that.

well that depends on your method of thinking, when you look at where cars spend a good portion of their lives and spread that out it is actually quite easy,
remember the average electric car will only need plugging in every 3 or 4 days and that could be done at a work place or on a shopping trip or a couple of hours at the cinema.
also the government didn't suddenly build a network of fuel stations over the last 50 years, people looking for fat profits did. think of all the derelict petrol stations coming up, plenty of room there for 20 fast chargers, quick stop off on way home for 20 minutes every couple of days.

the average commute in the UK is something like 26 miles a day, where as some folks will come on and say they need 600 miles a day, well there will be vehicles that will do that in 10 years time no drama, people need to stop crying about the loss and embrace the gain, quiet clean cities and towns.

 

[broc]

Well it has been announced and well done Boris, I wonder now how many people will desert diesel not because of the environmental issues but how much their precious vehicles will depreciate over the next few years.

We gave up on diesel shortly after DPFs were introduced, making diesels impractical for short distance and urban use.

It will be interesting to see how people's buying habits change leading up to 2030, will people rush to buy EVs or will there be a rush to buy the remaining ICE powered vehicles to keep as long as possible? Also of interest will be seeing how the chancellor deals with the shortfall of fuel duty over the intervening years. The cost of EVs is softened today to a degree by the lower energy costs and VED, however the chancellor will have to find a way of clawing back the lost income from motorists somehow. Wide scale road pricing would seem to be the fairest way of doing this but it will be a brave chancellor that introduces it.

 

[nilagin]

Currently no firm information on what type of hybrid is allowed after 2030. If you have the official source, I'm sure the thread would be interested to see it.

The original plan (2017) was for the sale of all new ICE to be banned from 2040. The decision to bring this forward to 2030 was made almost 2yrs ago, but was updated to include hybrid vehicles so long as they were capable of of 50km under electric propulsion. As far as I am aware that is 50 consecutive Km's. Now they are saying new sales of these hybrids will only be eligible for 5yrs.

 

[nilagin]

well that depends on your method of thinking, when you look at where cars spend a good portion of their lives and spread that out it is actually quite easy,
remember the average electric car will only need plugging in every 3 or 4 days and that could be done at a work place or on a shopping trip or a couple of hours at the cinema.
also the government didn't suddenly build a network of fuel stations over the last 50 years, people looking for fat profits did. think of all the derelict petrol stations coming up, plenty of room there for 20 fast chargers, quick stop off on way home for 20 minutes every couple of days.

the average commute in the UK is something like 26 miles a day, where as some folks will come on and say they need 600 miles a day, well there will be vehicles that will do that in 10 years time no drama, people need to stop crying about the loss and embrace the gain, quiet clean cities and towns.

Why will there be loads of derelict petrol stations coming up? There is over 40 million cars in the UK, a small portion of those will have been replaced by EV's by 2030, petrol stations will still be required.

 

[JohnC6]

It does annoy me when radio/tv reports on the forthcoming ban on the sale of new petrol/diesel cars is, on too many occasions, reported as ..'No sales of petrol or diesel cars after 2030'. I heard it again this morning on Five-Live. A short while later it was revised to ' no sales of new petrol/diesel vehicles'. Then Nicky Campbell said that this is how the roads will sound after 2030 and played a clip of the road noise now and then one with electric cars..It's misleading. A new petrol/diesel can be bought up to 2030 so they're going to last, probably up to 20 years, with people selling them in the used market. Diesel sales fell by 30% last year and another 20% in the first half of this year but that's a different issue.

I also read a letter in my Saturday newspaper and the writer was questioning the statement by..or alleged statement..by a motoring correspondent in a previous issue stating no sale of petrol/diesel cars after 2030. A clarification was given.

 

[broc]

I'm sure you can buy "fun car" hybrids. I expect the ban is on pure ICE only, most manufacturers have already got mild-hybrids. BMW efficientdynamics have been available for ages. I'm sure they can pop it into a Mini to get around the regulations.

Recent ICE BMW Minis already use BMW Efficientdynamics technology.......

 

[nilagin]

well that depends on your method of thinking, when you look at where cars spend a good portion of their lives and spread that out it is actually quite easy,
remember the average electric car will only need plugging in every 3 or 4 days and that could be done at a work place or on a shopping trip or a couple of hours at the cinema.
also the government didn't suddenly build a network of fuel stations over the last 50 years, people looking for fat profits did. think of all the derelict petrol stations coming up, plenty of room there for 20 fast chargers, quick stop off on way home for 20 minutes every couple of days.

the average commute in the UK is something like 26 miles a day, where as some folks will come on and say they need 600 miles a day, well there will be vehicles that will do that in 10 years time no drama, people need to stop crying about the loss and embrace the gain, quiet clean cities and towns.

On a workday, my car spends 8hrs in the car park at work, half an hour or so on the road and up to an hour and a half at the gym. At work they have installed more charges, we have probably gone from around 6 to about 50. But there is around 3000 employees. I only travel 15 -18 miles per day, whilst some travel 80 -100 miles per day so they are going to require more frequent use of a charger. But even with 50 chargers, as more people take up EV over ice, I have no guarantee of finding a charging space at 6 am and even less of a chance at 2:30pm when I am likely to need it.
The gym is an old cow shed rented on an old farm, not much chance of any chargers being installed there and I have no guarantee of where I am going to be able to park at home, which is where my car spends the most amount of time.
Filling up with petrol once every 2-3 weeks is less than a 10 minute detour.
My car doesn't get taken to the supermarket, we have the wifes car for that. It has to be at least 10yrs since I went to the cinema.

So the government has done their bit, this isn't the first post you have started about the ban on ICE vehicles, yet you still continue to drive one, why is that?

 

[Mr Bump]

Smart money people will slowly buy into hybrids, dumb money will just keep buying diesels right up to the wire.

 

[Nod]

At work they have installed more charges, we have probably gone from around 6 to about 50.

Over a period of how long? IF there's more demand for charging points, I'm sure Henry will dig into his pocket and fit more.

ETA. Are the current chargers free or are they pay to use?

 

[Paul W. H]

Smart money people will slowly buy into hybrids, dumb money will just keep buying diesels right up to the wire.

If your correct they will be giving diesel cars away in 2029 and I would have one

 

[Cobra]

I knew this would come. I just figured they’d run it alongside VED or “road tax” as an additional form of taxation.

Which ever way it goes you can be sure of one thing, the motorist will be taxed and taxed again
Whether is a ICE or a scalextrix knock off

I have no confidence in this! Look at all the flats and houses being built where you cant park close to a garage or house? I cant even see this lot being able to have enough charging points across the country in places like car parks either. I know the ban means we can still run petrol cars so it wont change overnight, but you need the right infrastructure.

My post was sarcastic, Oh no it wasn't Oh yes it was ...
These points And more are exactly why the whole plan is doomed to failure.
Latest quote on the news, today, from some government bod ( I missed the name)
"Electric cars should be as cost effective as petrol / diesel cars.
I like the way he slipped in "Should"

 

[LeeRatters]

I can't park next to my house or near my work. Certainly not close enough to safely charge anyway.

 

[nilagin]

Diesel sales fell by 30% last year and another 20% in the first half of this year but that's a different issue.

Even though sales of new diesel vehicles are on the decline, it is more likely to be for smaller vehicles that have seen that impact. Some manufacturers are ceasing to sell diesel powered superminis especially as the petrol engined variants especially if they are mild hybrid are now closer to achieving similar mpg and CO2 emissions.
However, year to date mild hybrid diesels in the UK saw an increase of around 104% over the same period last year.

 

[Mr Bump]

If your correct they will be giving diesel cars away in 2029 and I would have one

yep plenty people will because they dont give a chuff about the environment, you are in a large cluster of people,

 

[nilagin]

Over a period of how long? IF there's more demand for charging points, I'm sure Henry will dig into his pocket and fit more.

ETA. Are the current chargers free or are they pay to use?

They were increased since the beginning of this year. Probably in anticipation of managers getting Mach e's.
Charging is free. Installations are just along the perimeter of the car parks and only where close to an electrical supply. They could probably install another 50 at the most.