equestrian togs quit due to copyright thefts

oh no get the popcorn this could turn into another "wedding" type thread with Togs moaning that they've always done it this way and no one else can possibly take wedding/equine pics as they just dont understand and anyway they are entitled to a protected living!!

But, I do have more than a passing interest as my daughter has a horse and I have been that amateur giving away pics, and have now been asked to do a show as freelance tog......

I have invested in kit, built a website and am ready for the event. I know I will only sell images:

- If they are good
- If I put the effort into selling them (taking the pics is the easy bit)
- If they are wanted by the riders and they dont have a friend doing the same

Now I have been to many shows and although there are a few togs around, talking to them you quickly realise there are few that have any idea what they are doing. At an indoor show I was using my tamron 90 f2.8 wide open and 1600 ISO to get a barely usable 160th, another tog was on 200 iso kit lens and 1000th and was wondering why nothing was coming out ( I kid you not.....)

Despite digital there is some skill involved, yes its far more competetive than it used to be but thats life. Want to be an airline pilot? £100,000 to train (which YOU pay) then your earnings are not the £100k plus you thought, more like £60k.....it's happening everywhere.

If you want to succeed at equine or any other sort of photography you have to be better than the crowd, the competitors have the money to spend but will only do so if your images warrant it.

As for the magazines? their interest isnt equine, it's money. If they can save money on pictures they will, and the only thing that will matter is if their readership falls because of poor quality images then they will do something, not for their readership but because their income is affected............bottom line is life is more competetive than ever, it's a fact. It's all very well getting the 'ump and quitting equine photography, but only if you've got another source of income that will almost certainly be equally affected.....

Have just re read the article, must rate as one of the best whinges I have seen for ages!!!!!! Lots of twoddle about serving the dressage scene etc, nothing about the reality of making a nice living out of it which is now being disturbed by outsiders realising that they can make some money out of it too!!!! If you are having images pinched why werent they watermarked?
 
neil_g said:
..and images being given away for free

http://www.eurodressage.com/equestr...-equestrian-photographer-and-their-copyrights

discuss..
Click to expand...

Odd that. I'm planning a move from am to pro myself and using equestrian as one of the main pillars of the business.

The world has moved on from the days of negatives, proofs and effective copyright control. The new world is all about facebook, email, flickr, google.

I am still working out the details of my business model but I'll be embracing the new reality and using it to my advantage, not trying to fight against it.

It is easier to change your business so that it prospers in a changing world than it is to stop the world from changing.

Andrew
 
Gaffer, you are on the rights lines, things have changed and you have recognised it........I look forward to some of the other responses.....
 
There are a few issues here

1. the copyright is being infringed
2. the market seems OK to accept substandard work
3. the event organisers are allowing the low quality photography to happen, and not following up, which may be at odds with the commercial agreement with the professionals

from the professional standpoint they are between a rock and a hard place. to attend an event constitutes a considerable investment in time and money, and they do need the event organisers to adhere to thier end of the deal
 
gaffer said:
Odd that. I'm planning a move from am to pro myself and using equestrian as one of the main pillars of the business.

The world has moved on from the days of negatives, proofs and effective copyright control. The new world is all about facebook, email, flickr, google.
Click to expand...
Facebook, google, twitter, flickr may create you a buzz, but it will not create you a single pound directly

Professional photography is about shooting pictures that somone wants to buy - and then securing a good price for them. On the whole Facebook, flickr and the like distribute your stuff for free, and it is often not you doing the distributing
 
neil_g said:
..and images being given away for free

http://www.eurodressage.com/equestr...-equestrian-photographer-and-their-copyrights

discuss..
Click to expand...

That article is appalingly one sided and smacks throughout of someone with a serious case of sour grapes. The authors refusal to acknowledge that an ameture is capable of producing a decent useable image is laughable, she needs to wake up and smell the roses the world is changing and that includes the photography market if you don't move with the times your business will dry up. Yes the copyright theft is annoying but sadly it is part and parcel of modern society just look at the number of people downloading music and films, people just don't think that it's wrong.

The industry is changing keep up or move on, you certainly can't put the geenie back in the bottle.

Richard King said:
Facebook, google, twitter, flickr may create you a buzz, but it will not create you a single pound directly

Professional photography is about shooting pictures that somone wants to buy - and then securing a good price for them. On the whole Facebook, flickr and the like distribute your stuff for free, and it is often not you doing the distributing
Click to expand...

I think what Gaffer is getting at is this is an area of business that needs to be explored, people don't only want high quality prints to mout and hang on a wall these days they want 2 dozen low rez images to slap all over facebook to show there friends what an amazing life they are having. Tap into that market and you could be onto some easy money,
 
a1ex2001 said:
I think what Gaffer is getting at is this is an area of business that needs to be explored, people don't only want high quality prints to mout and hang on a wall these days they want 2 dozen low rez images to slap all over facebook to show there friends what an amazing life they are having. Tap into that market and you could be onto some easy money,
Click to expand...

we have explored it and do offer reasonably priced low res facebook images, people still rip them off.
 
gaffer said:
Odd that. I'm planning a move from am to pro myself and using equestrian as one of the main pillars of the business.

The world has moved on from the days of negatives, proofs and effective copyright control. The new world is all about facebook, email, flickr, google.

I am still working out the details of my business model but I'll be embracing the new reality and using it to my advantage, not trying to fight against it.

It is easier to change your business so that it prospers in a changing world than it is to stop the world from changing.

Andrew
Click to expand...

you can embrace it, but i eagerly await your first "my images have been used on facebook without my permission" thread ;)
 
"ameture [sic] is capable of producing a decent useable image"

Whereas a professional can produce a high quality image again and again and again.

Rain or shine and especially mid week ;)
 
neil_g said:
we have explored it and do offer reasonably priced low res facebook images, people still rip them off.
Click to expand...

That sadly is an unavoidable fact of modern society, have you not noticed how nobody seems to care about copyright anymore? We have reached a point where if it isn't something physical then alot of people think they can just take it be it music, films or photographs. I'll give you long odds that a huge number of people on these forums (Not saying pro's or anyone in particular) have dubious copies of of lightroom and photoshop, becuase they 'Can't afford it' and think that is fine but would be the first to complain if someone pinched one of their shots of flikr.
 
Surely a lot of the guys on here who are amateurs are quite capable of producing a high quality image time and time again?

Just because they're professional doesnt mean their images are any better.
 
barneyrubble said:
Surely a lot of the guys on here who are amateurs are quite capable of producing a high quality image time and time again?

Just because they're professional doesnt mean their images are any better.
Click to expand...

personally im not debating that point and didnt post the article for that reason, more so the points of copyright and free image giveaways.
 
neil_g said:
you can embrace it, but i eagerly await your first "my images have been used on facebook without my permission" thread ;)
Click to expand...

Even I've had my rugby images used on Facebook by the parents without asking. We had a discussion and I now take a minor donation to junior rugby funds.

I think in the article the telling line is: After 35 years, the time has come, and the debt load and sore back have eased.

It could be it's just time to slow down a little if it's long days, lots of processing...
 
Most amateurs don't produce professional quality images. Professional quality images are still wanted. What has changed is the acceptance of poor standards and low morals.
 
barneyrubble said:
Surely a lot of the guys on here who are amateurs are quite capable of producing a high quality image time and time again?

Just because they're professional doesnt mean their images are any better.
Click to expand...

I usually does. It also usually means that they've figured out a way to get paid for ther work, enter into contracts which benefit them and have processes in place to deal with copyright infringers and contract deviators.

What annoys a lot of professional photographer i.e. those who do it for a living, is the weekend warrior with decent kit and a half decent eye, leaving work on a friday with the bills paid and trashing a market by agreeing to do the work for free, a credit, for access etc.

Then they go back to work on Monday oblivious of the damage they've done.

If a photographer is good enough to get the gig and the pics are good enough to use, great, but that photographer should charge the going rate out of respect for other photographers.

cue muppetry:
 
awp said:
What has changed is the acceptance of poor standards and low morals.
Click to expand...

There is nothing anyone can do about that, if a magazine, newspaper or indavidual thinks the quality of image they can get for free is good enough to fulfill their requirments then that becomes the market value of the images.

Low morals is a tricky one and nobody has managed to crack it, if the film, music and software industries can't convince people that they should pay for their output I don't expect photographers to have much more success.
 
Low morals in the industry have always been a problem, you only have to look at the number of people on TP who've been shafted by x publication.

Photographers being used by event organisers, knowingly or otherwise, to shaft the photography business is a huge problem made worse by the complicity of amateurs.
 
Tyrone Shoelaces said:
Photographers being used by event organisers, knowingly or otherwise, to shaft the photography business is a huge problem made worse by the complicity of amateurs.
Click to expand...

Please can we stop with this hyperbole, ametures are not intentionally going out to shaft the industry they are just enjoying a hobby which is changing the market place, you can't put the cheap DSLR geenie back in the bottle and turn back time and you can't expect everyone with a camera to be interested in making money.
 
What annoys a lot of professional photographer i.e. those who do it for a living, is the weekend warrior with decent kit and a half decent eye, leaving work on a friday with the bills paid and trashing a market by agreeing to do the work for free, a credit, for access etc.

Then they go back to work on Monday oblivious of the damage they've done.

If a photographer is good enough to get the gig and the pics are good enough to use, great, but that photographer should charge the going rate out of respect for other photographers.

cue muppetry:
Click to expand...

Tyrone - you need to move with the times.

Cue the usual from certain pros trying to protect their living - see Dave Picketts post at the top.

As for the weekend warriors - why on earth should they not do that? If that's what they want to do then it's up to them. On the other hand, how would you expect someone to get started in this line then? If not by undercutting the existing pros to make themselves more attractive due to less experience, then how do they get that experience?

Why would an event organiser choose someone with no ecxperience over someone with loads of experience if they are the same price? How many people do you know jump straight into professional photography. Most move from a day job, become a "weekend warrior" and then move to full time pro.

There will always be those that will do this sort of job for free. As for respect to other photographers - :D:D:D

This is happening in all walks of photography - see all the wedding threads. Everyone needs to start somewhere, and to start - they need to be cheaper and/or better than the existing. The only way they will probe they're better is to get that first, second, third job, which they can only get if they're cheaper.
 
Tyrone Shoelaces said:
I usually does. It also usually means that they've figured out a way to get paid for ther work, enter into contracts which benefit them and have processes in place to deal with copyright infringers and contract deviators.

What annoys a lot of professional photographer i.e. those who do it for a living, is the weekend warrior with decent kit and a half decent eye, leaving work on a friday with the bills paid and trashing a market by agreeing to do the work for free, a credit, for access etc.

Then they go back to work on Monday oblivious of the damage they've done.

If a photographer is good enough to get the gig and the pics are good enough to use, great, but that photographer should charge the going rate out of respect for other photographers.

cue muppetry:
Click to expand...

Amateurs don't owe professionals anything - if taking pics for free or cheap makes them happy they have a perfectly good right to do that. You might not like it but we live in a capitalist society - no point whining about it.
 
Tyrone Shoelaces said:
"ameture [sic] is capable of producing a decent useable image"

Whereas a professional can produce a high quality image again and again and again.

Rain or shine and especially mid week ;)
Click to expand...

yeah, but infinite monkeys in the audience with infinite dSLRs, will produce infinite lucky shots ;)
 
a1ex2001 said:
That sadly is an unavoidable fact of modern society, have you not noticed how nobody seems to care about copyright anymore? We have reached a point where if it isn't something physical then alot of people think they can just take it be it music, films or photographs. I'll give you long odds that a huge number of people on these forums (Not saying pro's or anyone in particular) have dubious copies of of lightroom and photoshop, becuase they 'Can't afford it' and think that is fine but would be the first to complain if someone pinched one of their shots of flikr.
Click to expand...

It would be a lot better for the photography industry if Facebook/Flickr made it so that it was that easy to save the photographs from the website...like having a no right click function and embedding the images within a database, and the URL hiding out the way.

As it is, they don't do this, so people will continue to take photographs from them. The bit problem is, and a lot of people do it, is that if they haven't gone into a shop and purchased something, they don't feel as if they have something. The digital age has created a lot of products that don't really exist, except in ones and zeroes!!

p.s. I love reading these threads where the pros get annoyed at the amateurs different views on the photography world, and vice-versa...
 
grum said:
Amateurs don't owe professionals anything - if taking pics for free or cheap makes them happy they have a perfectly good right to do that. You might not like it but we live in a capitalist society - no point whining about it.
Click to expand...


Just to stick the oar further into the mud. If the pro's are becoming annoyed at the 'amateur weekend warrior' doing gigs for the rpice of admission, or free, then maybe they should rethink how they are approaching their business and look at other angles for getting the work back.

you don't move with the times, you simple shrivel up and die. Whining on an internet forum won't solve any problems, it make amateurs look at you in a different light IMO
 
neil_g said:
out of interest how would you "move with the times"?
Click to expand...

I know that wasn't directed at me but I'll stick my two pence worth in anyway.

What you need to do as a pro is offer something that the amature can't and that something has to have a value for the customer so isn't necessarily just producing better photographs as the customer maybe happy with the existing quality. If you can't come up with something that fits these criteria and the amature freebies are affecting your business model significantly then you probably no longer have a viable business and either need to move into a different area of photography or look for a new job. These are the harsh realities of a capatalist world, product price is driven by the market not the seller unless you have a price fixing syndicate like OPEC!

Do I have any idea what a Horse photographer can do to differentiate his business? no but that is one of the many reasons I'm not a horse photographer!
 
Ironic isn't it that so many amateurs want to become pros and yet have so little respect for the profession. If professional photography dies out then the amateur is going to have to pay a lot more for their equipment - and product development would be a lot slower too - so everyone would suffer.
 
Richard King said:
2. the market seems OK to accept substandard work
Click to expand...

It doesn't matter what anyone thinks about the standard of work. The market will pay for what the market wants. Times are tough and people may simply not be able to afford a premium product. Adapt or die.
 
awp said:
Most amateurs don't produce professional quality images. Professional quality images are still wanted. What has changed is the acceptance of poor standards and low morals.
Click to expand...

Good point

Hopefully gaffer and Dave Picket realise that when they turn pro, someone else will take their place in the freebie market.

Good luck though:)
 
awp said:
Ironic isn't it that so many amateurs want to become pros and yet have so little respect for the profession. If professional photography dies out then the amateur is going to have to pay a lot more for their equipment - and product development would be a lot slower too - so everyone would suffer.
Click to expand...

I'm sure the really talented pros aren't going anywhere - but if a load of average photographers taking standard portraits and baby pictures have to get a real job to supplement their income I just don't see that as some massive tragedy. Sorry. :shrug:
 
Always interesting that these 'adapt or die' - 'move with the times' - 'keep up or move on' type comments always come from people in safe non-photographic jobs. :bang:
 
a1ex2001 said:
What you need to do as a pro is offer something that the amature can't and that something has to have a value for the customer so isn't necessarily just producing better photographs as the customer maybe happy with the existing quality.
Click to expand...

thats a bit of a given though surely, you should be doing that anyway to get booked over another pro?

doesnt really answer the question on moving with the times though (in regard to the whole social networking/internet images era) in my opinion?
 
awp said:
Always interesting that these 'adapt or die' - 'move with the times' - 'keep up or move on' type comments always come from people in safe non-photographic jobs. :bang:
Click to expand...

Again - nobody owes you a living. Why not concentrate on trying to take better photographs or promote your business instead of complaining and criticising others on internet forums?

Your stock images on Alamy are hardly very inspiring.
 
neil_g said:
out of interest how would you "move with the times"?
Click to expand...

Haven't got a clue, can barely keep up with the current ones! But this is a quick idea...

For the sake of argument, say you were looking to do some work for a gig, and you knew that they had an amateur coming in to do stuff for free admission. I would approach the organisers from an angle that put you you at an advantage over amateur, offer your services at a very reduced rate, but with the agreement that there wouldn't be another photographer working there (this may not always be the case, depending on what size the gig was and how well you know them), and that you took all revenue from the sales of the photographs (people from nights out always like a good photograph. Sell the photographs like the music companies sell a single mp3, do it cheaply, especially if it was a large gig.

You could go one step further and maintain a website for all the photographs from that particular event, or agree to run the gallery section on the events website. Doing something like this would put you in a advantageous position over a weekend warrior that has just approached them wanting to do photographs...
 
grum said:
Again - nobody owes you a living. Why not concentrate on trying to take better photographs or promote your business instead of complaining and criticising others on internet forums?

Your stock images on Alamy are hardly very inspiring.
Click to expand...

I've adapted and changed what I do hugely over the course of a long professional career in photography - it is more difficult now than ever - it is very hard to compete against free images.

My pictures on Alamy do very well thanks - you obviously don't know what sells in the stock picture market!
 
awp said:
Always interesting that these 'adapt or die' - 'move with the times' - 'keep up or move on' type comments always come from people in safe non-photographic jobs. :bang:
Click to expand...

In other professions we have to do the same thing though, what ever you do in life, as soon as you sit still and think you don't have to change the way you do things, you get bitten!
 
neil_g said:
no one ever really gives any ideas/suggestions/examples of what exactly they mean either..
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OK here's one - if motorsport or equestrian or whatever is a genre of photography where there aren't enough sales and lots of people taking images for free - concentrate on another area of photography, eg weddings.

Or... make the sample images so watermarked and low res, and the full size ones so impressive - that people DO want to pay for them.

Or... think about another career because maybe if you are being brutally honest your pictures aren't good enough to sell in large enough quantities etc? (not specifically directed at you)
 
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