equestrian togs quit due to copyright thefts

awp said:
I've adapted and changed what I do hugely over the course of a long professional career in photography - it is more difficult now than ever - it is very hard to compete against free images.

My pictures on Alamy do very well thanks - you obviously don't know what sells in the stock picture market!
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Well as someone who purchases stock images from time to time for work - I certainly wouldn't buy them - but fair enough if there is a market for it I suppose.
 
mid_gen said:
It doesn't matter what anyone thinks about the standard of work. The market will pay for what the market wants. Times are tough and people may simply not be able to afford a premium product. Adapt or die.
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Yes this is true

This comes down to blunt economics and market forces

If the market wont pay enough to support the professionals, then the professionals will either have to lower the prices, or give up.. result in the main a poor price for poor work

This is notwhat some want to hear, but in essence, this is where we are today

Yes the interested parties will rightfully try to ringfence thier corner, and protect what they have, but in the end, the market will decide

Same apples to weddings, portraits, events and anything else

___

Here is the flipside: In the age where everyone has a decent camera, the professionals images really need to stand head and shoulders above the crowd, and be more than worth the premium. If this is true, and only if this is true, and the market has deep enough pockets to pay, then the professional has a job

In this way of thinking, if the market will pay for a very high quality product I say - "Bring on the weekend warriors" because the true professionals game should be so much better, the premuim will be worth it

___

I think the issue here has more to do with the market. I.e. the market currently won't pay for the premium high quality product
 
awp said:
Ironic isn't it that so many amateurs want to become pros and yet have so little respect for the profession. If professional photography dies out then the amateur is going to have to pay a lot more for their equipment - and product development would be a lot slower too - so everyone would suffer.
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Why do you assume that all these "Weekend Warriors" want to be pros?

People doing it for free are often just doing it for the love of (A) the subject matter and (b) photography.

If you want to stop amateurs taking photos at these events many won't want a camera, which will mean that pros have to pay a lot more money for their kit as the high volume stuff (i.e.cheaper) wont be selling (yes we can all turn that argument to suit )

Pro gear sells nowhere near as well as amateur gear.
 
grum said:
Again - nobody owes you a living. Why not concentrate on trying to take better photographs or promote your business instead of complaining and criticising others on internet forums?

Your stock images on Alamy are hardly very inspiring.
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That last comment was uncalled for, please do not make this personal.
 
grum said:
OK here's one - if motorsport or equestrian or whatever is a genre of photography where there aren't enough sales and lots of people taking images for free - concentrate on another area of photography, eg weddings.

Or... make the sample images so watermarked and low res, and the full size ones so impressive - that people DO want to pay for them.

Or... think about another career because maybe if you are being brutally honest your pictures aren't good enough to sell in large enough quantities etc? (not specifically directed at you)
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not really sure that any of those are "moving with the times" to be honest, they all seem to skirt around the issue at hand?

Sectionate said:
You could go one step further and maintain a website for all the photographs from that particular event, or agree to run the gallery section on the events website. Doing something like this would put you in a advantageous position over a weekend warrior that has just approached them wanting to do photographs...
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do that already :thumbs:
 
neil_g said:
not really sure that any of those are "moving with the times" to be honest, they all seem to skirt around the issue at hand?
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How is concentrating on more profitable areas of photography skirting around the issue?

It seems like perhaps you like shooting motorsport, so feel you should be able to make a living doing that - but no-one owes you that. Many of the photographers making decent cash seem to concentrate on weddings and baby photos etc - not something I'd like to do...
 
awp said:
Always interesting that these 'adapt or die' - 'move with the times' - 'keep up or move on' type comments always come from people in safe non-photographic jobs. :bang:
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I work in an industry that has been 99% offshored to India, I've had to adapt so excuse me if I don't get the violins out just yet.

I don't make suggestions of how people can change their business models to make money because I genuinly don't know, I don't run a photography business and have no interest what so ever in running one.

Adapt or die is the way business works, 50 years ago there was a corner shop at the end of every other street now they are gone, times change and trying to cling to the past won't work. Yes I appreciate it's not nice when your a tog but bleating and moaning on the interent will not fix it. It's a tough market being made tougher by the economic climate but really good togs will continue to make money. This site illustrates this fact perfectly as there are several photgraphers on here who I would for example be happy to pay too shoot my wedding but plenty that I would go near!
 
barneyrubble said:
Why do you assume that all these "Weekend Warriors" want to be pros?

People doing it for free are often just doing it for the love of (A) the subject matter and (b) photography.

If you want to stop amateurs taking photos at these events many won't want a camera, which will mean that pros have to pay a lot more money for their kit as the high volume stuff (i.e.cheaper) wont be selling (yes we can all turn that argument to suit )

Pro gear sells nowhere near as well as amateur gear.
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1. they normally do charge - an unsustainably stupid low ammount, which skews the market
2. Its like F1 - the money spent on R&D at the top, filters down. thats why your car has ABS, traction control etc.
 
neil_g said:
its not stopping people infriging my copyright though. even though as grum says the images are excessively watermarked and reletively cheap..
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Fight fire with fire and take the IRA route, kneecap the ******* :lol:

There is no real way in stopping it from happening, unless you start taking every john, dick & harry to the small claims court
 
a1ex2001 said:
I work in an industry that has been 99% offshored to India, I've had to adapt so excuse me if I don't get the violins out just yet.

I don't make suggestions of how people can change their business models to make money because I genuinly don't know, I don't run a photography business and have no interest what so ever in running one.

Adapt or die is the way business works, 50 years ago there was a corner shop at the end of every other street now they are gone, times change and trying to cling to the past won't work. Yes I appreciate it's not nice when your a tog but bleating and moaning on the interent will not fix it. It's a tough market being made tougher by the economic climate but really good togs will continue to make money. This site illustrates this fact perfectly as there are several photgraphers on here who I would for example be happy to pay too shoot my wedding but plenty that I would go near!
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:clap::clap:

Well said. I also work in an industry that's been heavily outsourced.

Things have changed, mainly brought about by the accessibility of Digital SLRs to the general amateurs. Photography has always been a popular hobby, but nowadays its just so much easier to start making money from it.

Established pros now have more competition than ever, and with loads of new startups they're going to feel the pinch.
 
neil_g said:
marc - you shoot horses (not litterally lol), whats your take on the original article? or do you want to remain impartial for moderation reasons.. :)
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Well there are times when our horse has left me sorely tempted! :D

TBH I can see both sides of the argument. The problem does seem to be that the digital age has meant that countless more people are able to get useable images with little or no training so the gap between amateur and professional is much smaller than it once was.

I don't do event photography, I do commissions and as such, I have the luxury of being able to take my time and make mistakes so I agree with the argument that a pro event tog is more likely to get the required consistent results and that's where the pro can outshine the hobbyist.

Sadly, the fact that people/publications would rather accept reduced quality for free than pay for higher quality is something that will never change IMO so I'm really not sure what can be done in that area. Also, the argument that holds true is that a hobbyist s perfectly entitled to photograph for free if that's their passion and here is very little anyone can really do about that.

I suppose I could be seen as a weekend warrior as I have a mon-fri job (Well at least until the end of next month) but I never, ever work for free. ;)

Hope that was impartial enough (I now need to extract the splinters from my bum! :D)
 
neil_g said:
well for starters why should people breaking the law force me to change my subject matter?

its like telling a musician to become an plumber if they dont like their albums being ripped off on the internet.
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It's really not. Strangely enough I am a musician by trade - I mostly like producing dance/trip hop type stuff, DJing in clubs, and playing bass in a rap/rock group.

But guess what - that by itself doesn't pay the bills. So..... I do some of that stuff, plus some other stuff which isn't exactly my thing - record some bands in the studio (many of which I don't particularly like the music of), do samba drumming workshops with kids with learning difficulties, organise festivals, do a bit of design (and photography) work, arrange bands for weddings - etc etc etc

Or I could JUST do the stuff I really like and whinge about how I wasn't getting paid enough.
 
Unfortunatally, for the masses (including most of the pro's) there is no real way of managing rights effectivly. To do so adds even more cost to the image

THis brings us square round to: on the whole, you need to need paid properly for what you are shooting in the first place

example: shoot a wedding - dont charge 199, hoping you will get an additional 700 in prints, just charge 899 and forget about the prints. You will be being paid a comercial rate for doing a professional job

Shoot a sport/equestrian event: dont shoot for free, and then hope you get £1K in print sales, Charge 1K, and hand over the images

Yikers i here you saying..

its a simple model - the professional is hired on a day / week / hour rate to do a job, which produces the work

And yes you still can claim rights over the images
 
Richard King said:
1. they normally do charge - an unsustainably stupid low ammount, which skews the market
2. Its like F1 - the money spent on R&D at the top, filters down. thats why your car has ABS, traction control etc.
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The original comment I was replying to was about people doing it for free. But the principle is the same. Why should they not do that? Probably just enough to cover their costs.

As long as they are insured and any equipment they use is tested (and that's up to the event to check) then where's the problem?

As for 2. of course thats the case, but where does the money spent come from ??? From the millions of low end DSLRS being purchased by our hated weekend warrior and uncle joe who's going to do this/that wedding.
 
neil_g said:
well for starters why should people breaking the law force me to change my subject matter?

its like telling a musician to become an plumber if they dont like their albums being ripped off on the internet.
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That is a sentiment I agree entirely with but sadly copyright law has become totally unenforceable in the digital era and needs a serious re-think. If the laws as they stand are enforced you would criminalise 99% of the British population which is clearly unsustainable.

As I said earlier the music and film industries have tried and failed miserably to enforce copyright in the digital market so sadly inidividual photographers have little to no chance.
 
barneyrubble said:
The original comment I was replying to was about people doing it for free. But the principle is the same. Why should they not do that? Probably just enough to cover their costs.

As long as they are insured and any equipment they use is tested (and that's up to the event to check) then where's the problem?
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idealistically...

1. they dont usually pay tax
2. they are never normally insured (they dont earn enough from it to justify it)
3. the professionals in the photography pit, pay a high premium to be there, in terms of insurance, kit, and fees to the event organisers
 
neil_g said:
well for starters why should people breaking the law force me to change my subject matter?
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Neil - the problem is - would these people who rip off your photos actually have bought it if they couldn't rip it off.

My guess is no in the majority of cases, but we'll probably never know that for sure.
 
Richard King said:
idealistically...

1. they dont usually pay tax
2. they are never normally insured (they dont earn enough from it to justify it)
3. the professionals in the photography pit, pay a high premium to be there, in terms of insurance, kit, and fees to the event organisers
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Sorry - but I know several weekend warriors, they all pay tax, they are all insured, and they've agreed with the organiser to be there.

The insurance thing is up to the event organiser to check as well. As we're talking about Equestrian specifically, the organiser of the event has a duty to ensure that all people working on their event are adequetley insured.
 
awp said:
I've adapted and changed what I do hugely over the course of a long professional career in photography - it is more difficult now than ever - it is very hard to compete against free images.

My pictures on Alamy do very well thanks - you obviously don't know what sells in the stock picture market!
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I say adapt or die and I'm moving into this, I have already traded job security in by trading time shooting for time working on my degree. I think we have to be BETTER as well as more reliable to be worth the money. Not a massive fan of half measures tbh
 
barneyrubble said:
Sorry - but I know several weekend warriors, they all pay tax, they are all insured, and they've agreed with the organiser to be there.

The insurance thing is up to the event organiser to check as well. As we're talking about Equestrian specifically, the organiser of the event has a duty to ensure that all people working on their event are adequetley insured.
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THen they are professional then

The event organisers will have a deal with them, and they will be in exactly the same position as the photographers mentioned inthe article

If the event organisers are doing a deal with the guys inthe photography pit, and then letting any tom dick and harry come allong with a minor deal or are turning a blind eye, then the rocks need throwing at the event organisers, because thier actions or inactions are undermining the group of photographers in the photo pit
 
There are 2 types of professional photographer

Professional photographer - charges money
Professional photographer - has a professional attitude, and provides excelent quality work

They are not mutually exclusive, but int he eyes of contract law / tax law etc. its only the first type which count

terms like weekend warrior, semi-pro are red herrings
 
I am sat at my desk , with my 3rd cup of coffee of the morning, tears streaming down my cheeks and contemplating joining the Birmingham branch of the Royal Kamikaze Squadron. And the reason for this depressive state I find myself in, its all the poor unloved, hard up and miss understood “Pro” togs moaning about the competition (AKA anyone with a DSLR)

I make a very good living out of photography, albeit mainly studio based work but I do venture out side and photograph events. Do I throw my toys out of the pram when I see threads on here, week after week from people who want help deciding what lights to buy for there home studio, or from people who are having trouble setting there home studio lights up correctly or from those who want help and advise on starting up a commercial high street studio? OF COURSE I DON”T. I enbrace anyone who wants to take photos for pleasure or for profit. I will offer any advice I can, unlike the negative dribble some so call “Pros” dish out on this forum time after time.

If you are good at your profession, you should never be afraid of anyone, just do it bigger and better than the next guy. Move with the times, the digital revolution is here to stay, opening up a whole new world for all photographers. Those of you who have 30 or 40 years experience in this industry, open you’re eyes, move with the times, don’t sit here moaning and throwing your big boys cameras out of your prams, get off your butts and find new avenues of income, invent a new concept, look for new markets, do something that the people you so despise aren’t doing.

Sat here typing reply and reply about how good you really are but your being undermined my the competition does not cut any mustard with me and it shows a complete lack of professionalism on your part.

4th cup of coffee is called for. Thanks for reading my 2 pence worth.
 
Kemble3 said:
If you are good at your profession, you should never be afraid of anyone, just do it bigger and better than the next guy. Move with the times, the digital revolution is here to stay, opening up a whole new world for all photographers. Those of you who have 30 or 40 years experience in this industry, open you’re eyes, move with the times, don’t sit here moaning and throwing your big boys cameras out of your prams, get off your butts and find new avenues of income, invent a new concept, look for new markets, do something that the people you so despise aren’t doing.
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I am with you on this
 
I'm not going to play football any more - just in case it does Wayne Rooney out of a job :D

Scrap that - now I've upgraded my boots from Gola to Adidas and learnt how to argue loudly with the referee, I'm as good as him.. right?

Sorry Wayne. I'm up front against Germany now - and I'll play for England for FREEEEEE :naughty: :bonk:
 
SuperAP said:
I'm not going to play football any more - just in case it does Wayne Rooney out of a job :D

Scrap that - now I've upgraded my boots from Gola to Adidas and learnt how to argue loudly with the referee, I'm as good as him.. right?

Sorry Wayne. I'm up front against Germany now - and I'll play for England for FREEEEEE :naughty: :bonk:
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Sadly world class footballers are like world class photographers, few and far bettween. However if you have a modicum of talent, put you mind to it, get super fit and were willing to play for free you could do a few non-league players out of their weekly match fee.
 
awp said:
Always interesting that these 'adapt or die' - 'move with the times' - 'keep up or move on' type comments always come from people in safe non-photographic jobs. :bang:
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So do you class me as working in safe non photographic job? All industries have the dinosaurs, these creatures did not survive because they could not adapt and change..................Very much like a few Pro togs around here by the looks of it.

If you are struggling on ways to change or move you business forward, I can put you on to some very good people who will help you, they are not cheap but they are good.
 
It's the modern age.

Mechanics are being replaced by machines which you plug cars into.
IT professionals are being replaced by programs that do everything for you.
Joiners are being replaced with flatpack furniture cut automatically.
And how many photographers print their own pictures instead of sending them off to a printing lab? From on here I'd say a lot. A lot of businesses print their own brochures even.
And of course, pro togs are being replaced with people with a DSLR who can get pretty good pictures.



However our local garage still have some high end sports cars (including ferarris and all sorts) whose owners prefer their work.
People are still working with computers fixing problems programs can't.
If you can do high enough level stuff, there's still companies actively scouting for good joiners.
My uncle is still in job owning a commerical printing firm.
And plenty of pro togs are still making a good enough business out of it to live off.


The thing is, the lower level stuff for everything no longer requires people - however if you're good enough, you'll still win over other things, so long as you adapt, as so many people have said.


The copyrights issue is a separate one than the amateurs issue, that's been done to death so many times I can' be bothered with it.
 
a1ex2001 said:
Sadly world class footballers are like world class photographers, few and far bettween. However if you have a modicum of talent, put you mind to it, get super fit and were willing to play for free you could do a few non-league players out of their weekly match fee.
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But if you were going to work hard at it and put your mind into it that much you probably wouldn't be doing so to give your services away.

Unless editors (and that's what we're talking about if the context of the discussion is based around the article supplied by the OP) are abandoning high quality pics for a blurry, badly composed mess there will still be a market for Professionals.
If they ARE... well there's nothing anyone can do about that. Sell your kit, go on a nice holiday with the proceeds and buy a camera phone :shrug:
 
It isn't just the pros quitting due to copyright theft.
I (rank amateur) only started taking equine pictures because event organisers found the local pros either too expensive or not interested. I suspect the reasons for both pro approaches were due to simply not being able to make any money from such events.
One of the organiser friends who also togs asked a few of us if interested in taking pics so we started attending events and probably due to not having any events photographed for a while sales were pretty high. After covering all events once then the sales reduced as the core eventers were most likely the same. It didn't stop them liking the pictures though as they all have the watermarked samples on their facebook :)
So now a small bunch of amateurs are also thinking "is it worth the time/fuel etc to provide free pictures?".
Providing pictures on site and not online is the only way I can think of avoiding the problem and then that is likely to put the pictures back in the "too expensive" category :bang:
 
Kemble3 said:
I can put you on to some very good people who will help you, they are not cheap but they are good.
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Sorry - I'd rather have someone really cheap or who can help for free! :D Just kidding!

As I've said I don't have a problem - I'm kept busy - I've changed hugely in what I do over the years - but the rate is a lot lower today than it used to be - as a result of people working cheap/free. You have to work longer/harder for the same money.
 
im not sure that anyone is refusing to "move with the times" (im starting to hate this saying already lol), more so my point was why should be dictated by people either stealing content or organisers chosing the free route over pro.

i think its more a case of educating people to the way it is damaging photography.

thats my take on it anyway.
 
awp said:
Always interesting that these 'adapt or die' - 'move with the times' - 'keep up or move on' type comments always come from people in safe non-photographic jobs. :bang:
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I'm not a photographer....but market forces are the same. I dumped a good permanent job a couple of years ago to go freelance (yes, everyone said I was mad). I switched industry sectors to one that had better prospects and I provide a better service than all the chaff, so I make a good living.

You can't run a business and ignore the market. Nor can you whinge about it...well you can.....but it's not going to change anything.
 
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