Ethics question on game lodge

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Hi all,

We're planning to go to southern Africa for a couple of weeks - game drives, bush camping, etc.

I found out that one of the lodges we're booked in runs a separate hunting business in a completely different part of the country. It's got nothing to do with the lodge we're staying in, which is purely photographic.

Though the hunting is legal, I personally find it reprehensible and am conflicted about staying at this lodge now. I've exchanged a few emails with the owner who said that a lot of game lodges in said country are owned by professional hunters/ex-hunters.

Am I over-analyzing the situation, or shall I follow my heart and just go somewhere else?

Thank you.
 
You could apply this sort of logic to anything which you buy on a daily basis - clothing, food, electrical goods. I am sure that if we spent all our time looking into the background "ethics/morals" of almost anything, then we could find a reason not to do it/buy it/support it.
If it is legal hunting, then it may be done in partnership with responsible culling of animals - then again it may not.
Personally, I find that life is far too short to worry about everything.
Just go with the flow and enjoy the sights and experiences of what should be a wonderful holiday.
 
That is very true. Many private game lodges are owned by professional hunters.

As long as the hunting is legal and the animals have a fair chance of getting away, I don't see the problem. It's no different to fishing.
Hunting is very much a way of South African life and you know the saying, when in Rome........
 
Do you think it's going to make a bit of differance asking us what you should do.
Make your own mind up and stop sitting on the fence.
It cannot be to reprehensible when you asking our opinion
Man up and make your own mind up :thinking (y)(y)(y)
 
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Are there any real alternatives, or are they all hunting related or owned?
 
You're right, no point asking. I can't do it, I've decided to cancel the reservation.

I found online pictures of hunters standing and gloating over pictures of dead animals waving their rifles. That's not why I'm making this trip.
 
You're right, no point asking. I can't do it, I've decided to cancel the reservation.

I found online pictures of hunters standing and gloating over pictures of dead animals waving their rifles. That's not why I'm making this trip.

Out of interest - how do you think all those nice game reserves are financed?

If you want to make a stance, then you'll find it very difficult to go on any safari in Africa.
 
Out of interest - how do you think all those nice game reserves are financed?

If you want to make a stance, then you'll find it very difficult to go on any safari in Africa.

Do you mean the whole of Africa or just South Africa.

I wasn't aware that the game reserves in Kenya and Tanzania were so financed?
 
I'm not 100% sure about Kenya although I'd be surprised if they don't.

Tanzania certainly does though. Have a quick search for 'Lion Culls' as a starter! :)
 
Out of interest - how do you think all those nice game reserves are financed?

In my naivete, I thought that paying upwards of £500 per person per night would go some way towards abrogating the need for alternative sources of income.

I guess I'm just going to dig deeper before I decide on the lodges.

There's a certain hypocrisy here, I realize that. After all, I consume stuff, I occassionally eat meat and even manage to get behind the wheel of a car once a year.

But hunting a defenceless creature with dogs, trackers and high-velocity rifles strikes me as some sort of neolithic bloodsport.
 
I'm not 100% sure about Kenya although I'd be surprised if they don't.

Tanzania certainly does though. Have a quick search for 'Lion Culls' as a starter! :)

I only asked as I enjoyed a safari in Kenya several years ago, and we were told that hunting was banned on the reserves we visited (Masai Mara was one but I cant remember the names of the others).

They may have lied of course, or things may have changed since then.
 
In my naivete, I thought that paying upwards of £500 per person per night would go some way towards abrogating the need for alternative sources of income.

I guess I'm just going to dig deeper before I decide on the lodges.

There's a certain hypocrisy here, I realize that. After all, I consume stuff, I occassionally eat meat and even manage to get behind the wheel of a car once a year.

But hunting a defenceless creature with dogs, trackers and high-velocity rifles strikes me as some sort of neolithic bloodsport.

There's no hypocrisy at all. You have done the right thing. Animals will always be killed by humans for food ect. It is the way it is done and what pleasures are being derived from the minds that do it.

The most disturbing thing about it is the fact that humans can do these things to defenceless animals what type of cowards do things like that? what is going on in their minds! Is it that they actually feel good waving the animals pelt around saying look what I have killed I'm a big man.When really it's a cover because they have small genitals.:LOL:
 
I only asked as I enjoyed a safari in Kenya several years ago, and we were told that hunting was banned on the reserves we visited (Masai Mara was one but I cant remember the names of the others).

They may have lied of course, or things may have changed since then.

or they chose there words carefully instead of hunting should of asked about culling
 
I only asked as I enjoyed a safari in Kenya several years ago, and we were told that hunting was banned on the reserves we visited (Masai Mara was one but I cant remember the names of the others).

They may have lied of course, or things may have changed since then.

Kenya banned hunting in the 1970s.
 
Kenya banned hunting in the 1970s.

But they allow culling, and this happens on game farms. Funny how something can be called by a different name and still happen....
 
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strictly speaking culling can be a legitimate conservation tool - for example culling herbivores because there are insufficient top predators to control the population naturally. However there's no scientific justification for culling species which are already endangered,
 
strictly speaking culling can be a legitimate conservation tool - for example culling herbivores because there are insufficient top predators to control the population naturally. However there's no scientific justification for culling species which are already endangered,

Or the "culling" being available to foreign hunters for the right "fee" paid in cash to the right official.....
 
indeed - that isn't culling by any reasonable standard.

If you need to cull a population you do it in one hit with professional shooters and probably a drive with beaters/dogs/helicopters etc depending on what the target species is.
 
Hi all,

We're planning to go to southern Africa for a couple of weeks - game drives, bush camping, etc.

I found out that one of the lodges we're booked in runs a separate hunting business in a completely different part of the country. It's got nothing to do with the lodge we're staying in, which is purely photographic.

Though the hunting is legal, I personally find it reprehensible and am conflicted about staying at this lodge now. I've exchanged a few emails with the owner who said that a lot of game lodges in said country are owned by professional hunters/ex-hunters.

Am I over-analyzing the situation, or shall I follow my heart and just go somewhere else?

Thank you.

Insomniac - The hunting debate is often made black and white by most people outside of Africa, without necessarily considering the implications of opposing and being pro.

The hunting system in each country will also be different, which puts a different slant on the benefits of hunting. The types of hunting that occurs also causes confusion and does not help the situation. For example, South Africa has canned hunting, where lions are bred to be shot, in other countries you shot wild lions. South Africa has private fenced hunting areas, whilst other countries have wildlife buffer zones around National Parks that are used for hunting.

Both have different implications, one is the morality of raising an animal just to be shot, the other, in the wild lion case, the loss of a pride male will significantly impact on a wild population. A vacuum will be created, the cubs will be killed by the incoming male, and the cycle repeats itself.

I have been fortunate to work in Botswana and Zambia, and also run photographic safaris for small groups. Visiting numerous locations over the years, I see hunting as a neccessary evil.

I would be interested to see where this lodge are conducting their hunting, as my instinct would say it is away from their core safari area. Lets face it, not all ares will work for photographic safaris.

Take Botswana for example, no operator is going to open a camp in the thick mopane woodlands you can bearly drive through. And during the hunting season, are often thick scrub with limited game due to the lack of water. However, these areas provide important wet seaon dispersal ranges for wildlife (when hunting is no permitted).

In a number of instances communities will benefit from the hunting income. Giving wildlife this value means they do not graze their cattle or turn these important areas into human zones. Under the old Zim campfire programme, communities living in rural poverty benefited from up to 80% of the hunting quota revenues as an incentive to co-exist. They also enjoyed employement through the operators.

In terms of culling on game farms, this is all happening on private land in places like South Africa. These fenced reserves require management, and the revenues help keep these places wild rather than cattle farms. In fact, a number were and are now converted back to wildlife, which has helped bio-diversity across Southern Africa with the breeding that occurs.

Generally, if an area has quality game viewing and can support photographic tourism, it will tend to do so. Hunting predominately occurs in areas where this is not the case.

I am guessing by the price bracket and the mix of locations, you are looking at the Sabi Sand/private Kruger reserves for an element of the safari? This kind of setup would also be potentially more common in Namibia/Zambia.

If you are that concerned, green season your budget could stretch to Wilderness Safaris in Bots, with a good conservation ethic, or across Southern Africa, someone like AndBeyond.

I guess the point is, nothing is black and white, for a number of lodges, there is a lot going behind the scenes you will never know about. For example, when Botswana was transitioning to fully photographic over the last 20 years, many top operators were happily splitting their concessions with hunting operators.

Even within the hunting world, there are a variety of shades you may consider acceptable.

I would recommend logging onto www.safaritalk.net

You will not meet a bunch of more knowledge safari goers if you are concerned about companies with any relation to hunting.
 
Very interesting, thanks for the link.

The place I'm talking came up for a number of violations that contradict the above article - shooting a collared lion, shooting a female cheetah and shooting a collared elephant.

Craig Packer's got an interesting take on why trophy hunting may be not so good, after all. His perspective is biology rather than economics.

But most of these articles refer to lion hunting, of which in most Southern African countries there is a moratorum.
 
Kenya banned hunting in the 1970s.

Kenya did ban hunting, and since they have seen a 70% reduction in their wildlife numbers. Part of the issue has been the removal of incentives for those living in close proximity to the parks to accept predators and crop raiding elephants for example.

The Masai are known to give lions outside of park boundaries are particularly tough time.

The upside in Kenya, which should stem this issue is the increase in the number of conservancies. For example, in the Mara, the Masai are giving over their land to safari operators for a fixed lease. Moving off the land has given wildlife greater areas to freely roam.

I provides the a non-consumptive approach to ensuring the interests and economic well being of those living next to the parks are linked to survival of its wildlife.
 
Insomniac - The hunting debate is often made black and white by most people outside of Africa, without necessarily considering the implications of opposing and being pro.

Hi Russell,

Thanks for your marvellous and very informative post. Yes, you're quite right - the hunting area is in a completely different part of the country. I spoke to the lodge administrator, and he was quite surprised that I drew a parallel to the separate hunting operation.

I tried to explain - possibly, quite poorly - that I am completely ignorant of the realities on the ground. I don't really understand the implications of legalized hunting on the local economy or indeed promoting conservation. All I've done is make an emotional decision, which I agree is quite irrational.

I just need to do a bit of research when choosing the companies/lodges.
 
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if in SA , I recommend Botlierskop, just out of Mossel Bay..

Owned by the guy who used to be the head vet on the Kruger and heavily into conversation, esp black Impala.

Been there twice and very very nice.
 
Hi Russell,

I tried to explain - possibly, quite poorly - that I am completely ignorant of the realities on the ground. I don't really understand the implications of legalized hunting on the local economy or indeed promoting conservation. All I've done is make an emotional decision, which I agree is quite irrational.

I just need to do a bit of research when choosing the companies/lodges.

I disagree with you about hunting, but I do agree with your decision. If you're uncomfortable about visiting a game reserve that also offers hunting opportunities - albeit at a different location - then it's better to choose somewhere else. I think most SA hunters - genuine hunters, not people who just "enjoy" killing animals - would agree with this.

It's a wonderful country, with many problems. I'm South African on my mother's side, I love it deeply, and I can't wait to go back. Have a great time!
 
Botswana has banned the sale of all hunting permits as of January 2013; so next year the only hunting that will occur in Botswana will be traditional hunting by the San or any government backed official culls. If your budget allows then look for a safari in Botswana, as Russel says, the green season is cheaper if your budget is tight.

If you are planning on going this year, then the hunting in Botswana is either in areas outside the national parks or in private concessions within the parks.
 
Botswana has banned the sale of all hunting permits as of January 2013; so next year the only hunting that will occur in Botswana will be traditional hunting by the San or any government backed official culls. If your budget allows then look for a safari in Botswana, as Russel says, the green season is cheaper if your budget is tight.

If you are planning on going this year, then the hunting in Botswana is either in areas outside the national parks or in private concessions within the parks.

Gembobs, without belabouring the point, your comments would illustrate how there is a complete lack of clarity over the hunting situation in Botswana. Only Government leased areas will not be issuing hunting licences, and they will still be issued for problem animals. To put that into perspective, the killing by local farmers of predators are multiples of any hunting quota.

Private fenced reserves will still provide hunting services, so it not a complete ban as portrayed in the media. Knowing the industry, there are a number of owners who double dip, so it is possible to stay in the okavango, whilst the owners maintain a hunting farm elsewhere.

I would also add, the ban only applies to mammals, so bird hunts can still take place.

The reality is, unless those living next to the wildlife dervive more benefit like under the Kenya conservancy model, photographic or hunting is not going to dramatically reduce the number of animals killed each year, most of which are done so on the basis of being pests, not hunting licences.
 
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A crossbow in the rump of a lioness is not going to kill it straight away. Awful.

That sounds like something you've just made up. Are you saying people deliberately go out and shoot a lioness in the rump?

Why would any sane person deliberately injure a very large and dangerous animal at close range by shooting it in the backside?

That would be like suicide by lion.
 
Good move cancelling I think, although I am no expert on African safaris. I hope you find somewhere more ecofriendly.

Trophy hunting is barbaric. They even do it with crossbows now too. A crossbow in the rump of a lioness is not going to kill it straight away. Awful.
Will, do you have proof of that?

I can think of nothing more stupid than shooting a lion with the intent to only hurt/injure it. And yes, I have spent some time in Africa, so am not inexperienced in certain things.
 
A few years ago i did catch a doc on tv,where some of the game lodges in south africa were drugging the the lions,before taking out theses half wits to shoot them,one of the shooter couldn't hit the lion even those it was drugged and up against a fence,he caught right in the rump the person taking them out had to finally kill the lion,sicking :shake:
 
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http://www.theguardian.com/environment/video/2013/jun/03/lions-canned-hunting-south-africa-video

Shows the crossbows.

I don't mean purposefully. But you can't tell me that there won't be people that'll miss the shot and injure instead.

I abhor hunting. But I'm also realistic enough to know it generates large amounts of income for local communities, and it will take place no matter how much you or I object.

Surely then it's better to hunt bred for purpose, farmed animals then native, wild and possibly endangered populations?
 
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/video/2013/jun/03/lions-canned-hunting-south-africa-video

Shows the crossbows.

I don't mean purposefully. But you can't tell me that there won't be people that'll miss the shot and injure instead.
How very disturbing. I don`t see that as sport, but as Hugh says, is it better than wild animals being shot?

I`d prefer neither to happen, but that is not going to happen, too many people want to trophy hunt,whether we like it or not Will. But that video really leaves me feeling quite cold.
 
I simply don't know enough about hunting, so I won't say if it's right or wrong. I personally find it barbaric, and I've decided to vote with my money.

I realize it's an imperfect choice, but it helps me sleep (at least a little) better.

Thanks for your thoughts.
 
That sounds like something you've just made up. Are you saying people deliberately go out and shoot a lioness in the rump?

Why would any sane person deliberately injure a very large and dangerous animal at close range by shooting it in the backside?

That would be like suicide by lion.

Do you not think people can be that sick?
Try this video you will have to confirm you are over 18 and may not enjoy it
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=235_1330784219
 
Please not that canned hunting is NOT the norm in SA, neither is any form of drugging the animals before hand.

Yes there have been some incidence where greedy people have been caught doing this, but it is illegal and not something that happens across the country.
 
Insomniac without getting into the blood sports vs population control debate I applaud your moral fibres and personally think you have done the right thing as it clearly wasn't sitting well with you. I'm about to send you a PM with an alternative which I think you might like.
 
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